Whats the final word on the physics??

[Johnnypenso]

I knew I should have kept the video of the pics below. I was doing everything possible to keep all my momentum in this race. I was doing perfect 4-wheel drifts. So balanced is the setup, no countersteering required.

I was/am also able to hold a line. I followed the AI bumper to bumper from corner entry to corner exit. Indeed, it os tough to shave speed while turning but, if it's done at the right moment, quite the reward.

Even while the car looks so awkward, I can "feel" it still remains balanced.

Do the inside wheels lift naturally or did you hit the curb to do that?

 

[05XR8]

Curbs. From the same race, here is the AI I followed through at Hockenheim.

I've lifed front inside wheels around Sonoma, Brands and Long Beach on bumps alone no curbs. Used the Cosmo with front ARB cranked all the way. Rear ARB soft.

 

[Wolfe]

What about this slide not caught?:

And this one?:

And this one?:

I'm aware he got himself into some spins, and it doesn't disprove the phenomenon I was talking about. It's an assist, not an intervention. Recovering from oversteer is still a matter of when and how you countersteer.

I know for a fact that in FM4 and FM5, the way countersteer acts upon the car is artificially boosted. It was immediately evident to me when I took FM5 for a spin. FM6 looks very similar to how it is in FM4 and FM5; the way the cars rotate while drifting is very familiar. Supporting that conclusion is the fact that Turn 10 has stated they have a "master" physics engine in the office that they draw from for all of the Motorsport games, simplifying it to run on Xbox hardware.

I can't be the only person to have noticed this phenomenon, least of all in FM4 and FM5. If someone knows what I'm talking about and can confirm that it has been mitigated in FM6, that would be valuable to know.

 

[Speedster911]

I'm aware he got himself into some spins, and it doesn't disprove the phenomenon I was talking about. It's an assist, not an intervention. Recovering from oversteer is still a matter of when and how you countersteer.

I know for a fact that in FM4 and FM5, the way countersteer acts upon the car is artificially boosted. It was immediately evident to me when I took FM5 for a spin. FM6 looks very similar to how it is in FM4 and FM5; the way the cars rotate while drifting is very familiar. Supporting that conclusion is the fact that Turn 10 has stated they have a "master" physics engine in the office that they draw from for all of the Motorsport games, simplifying it to run on Xbox hardware.

I can't be the only person to have noticed this phenomenon, least of all in FM4 and FM5. If someone knows what I'm talking about and can confirm that it has been mitigated in FM6, that would be valuable to know.

Well, I haven't really thought about this in much detail, though sliding and counter-steering in F6 does feel a bit different and slightly improved from the previous games, on sim steering. However, knowing your preferences, you will probably get more fun out of the game on normal steering.

And yes, the cap on steering is uber-annoying. I wonder if they are ever getting rid of that or giving the player options.

I used to play FM6 with Sim Steering on the pad but since I got my G920 I've switched back to Normal Steering for most situations. I don't like how Sim Steering makes the wheel so sensitive around the center, and the FFB when counter-steering is pretty weird.

I've had several wheel users report just that and I do not understand why they kept it sensitive around the center... but hang on, does it get sensitive around the center ONLY when you break traction and start to slide while mode is set to "sim" ?

 

[Ialyrn]

I've had several wheel users report just that and I do not understand why they kept it sensitive around the center... but hang on, does it get sensitive around the center ONLY when you break traction and start to slide while mode is set to "sim" ?

Unfortunately, it is always sensitive around the center with Sim steering turned on. Though as I said before, it is better while using 900° now, to the point I can even drift with it. But if you lower the DOR, such as for driving the F1 car (360° works best for it). And even 540° for the other race cars. Then it just gets more and more sensitive the lower you go.

This issue will be worse on the Logitech G920 wheel however, as it does not have on wheel sensitivity adjustment like the Thrustmaster TX and Fanatec wheels do. On those 2 wheels, you can make the wheel less sensitive, which may actually negate sensitivity at the wheels center. But since I no longer have a TX wheel, I cant test it myself.

 

[Speedster911]

Unfortunately, it is always sensitive around the center with Sim steering turned on. Though as I said before, it is better while using 900° now, to the point I can even drift with it. But if you lower the DOR, such as for driving the F1 car (360° works best for it). And even 540° for the other race cars. Then it just gets more and more sensitive the lower you go.

This issue will be worse on the Logitech G920 wheel however, as it does not have on wheel sensitivity adjustment like the Thrustmaster TX and Fanatec wheels do. On those 2 wheels, you can make the wheel less sensitive, which may actually negate sensitivity at the wheels center. But since I no longer have a TX wheel, I cant test it myself.

Interesting. When you lower the DOR below 900 degs, can you not counter the center-sensitivity by increasing the inside deadzone? I know it's a lame question to ask, but I had to ask.

I can't say I've noticed this center-sensitivity on the pad while using SIM. Maybe I'm used to it, cos' normal definitely slows down your inputs and makes them smoother and more controlled, as if there's an extra filter added to aid in steering, particularly counter-steering.

Well anyway, good to know.

 

[Ialyrn]

Interesting. When you lower the DOR below 900 degs, can you not counter the center-sensitivity by increasing the inside deadzone? I know it's a lame question to ask, but I had to ask.

That would not work, as all you would be doing is adding on a dead zone. No point in doing that at all.

I can't say I've noticed this center-sensitivity on the pad while using SIM. Maybe I'm used to it, cos' normal definitely slows down your inputs and makes them smoother and more controlled, as if there's an extra filter added to aid in steering, particularly counter-steering.

When I am talking solely about the wheel, as in my last post, then you really need to stop comparing what myself and others feel on a wheel, to what you feel with a control pad. It is a completely different type of experience. I know that sounds really elitist, but unfortunately it is the honest truth. Not only that, but it may actually confuse someone who is looking for assistance with the game, and quite possibly compound any issues they are facing with car control.

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I will talk about the controller and a wheel this time though, since you already made the comparisons. I do have experience with both after all.

Now, I have used Sim Steering a fair bit myself on a control pad since its inclusion in Forza. I just personally prefer normal steering, regardless of the device. I am no faster or slower with or without it. As I said before, with sim steering on you need to steer with the throttle much more. And it can often take the need away to countersteer if done right. With normal steering however, I can countersteer with the thumbstick, much in the same way I do when I am using a wheel. Keep in mind here, that I also play Assetto Corsa, Rfactor, iRacing, and even more racing games besides those. And in all of them on a wheel, there are occasions when I have to countersteer. With sim steering turned on in Forza, on a wheel or a control pad. It becomes vastly more difficult to countersteer, more so on the control pad than the wheel. And it just does not feel right to me, and it does not feel like anything I have ever felt in any other sim based racing game. This is why I keep saying that T10 are either right on the money, and all the other devs have got things drastically wrong. Or T10 are the ones who have it wrong, and the other devs are right.

Forza, to me anyway, feels very similar to these racing games while using normal steering on a wheel:

Assetto Corsa.
RaceRoom.
iRacing.
Rfactor 2

And as I said, there are more besides those.

With sim steering turned on however, Forza, to me anyway, feels a lot like Pcars. A game I do not speak very highly off anyway, and a game I put money into during the crowd funding/investment phase. To me, Pcars feels wrong. I cant place my finger on it, and I cant vocalize exactly what I feel with regards to it. But it is the same feeling I get while using sim steering in Forza.

It most likely boils down to the fact that I have played/owned hundreds of racing games since the late 80's/early 90's, and on various different platforms. Even playing some on just a keyboard, and others with a D-pad and 2 buttons (sega master system and NES)

I am off the opinion that a racing games need things like filtering, speed sensitivity, and even something to help with counter steering; when a control pad is in use anyway. This is because you are dealing with such a small range of motion. But that is my opinion, yours is different, and you think sim steering is better. And that is ok, it just shows we are both individuals that make up our own mind. But I also agree that T10 (and other devs) should provide sliders for those things in the options menu, and to be fair, ditch sim steering altogether. Because with the sliders in place for those things, they would no longer be needed. They should be basic options in every single racing game.

The thing here is though, is that you can still have some impressive tank slappers on normal steering. Especially when you are running at my pace or faster. And you can also get into a slide that is just not recoverable. Spend enough time with the drifting community in Forza, and you will see that quite often. Both for wheel users, and control pad users. And even if the options above where added into the game, then you would see a lot of people having some fairly big issues at first. Especially people who try to play the game without any speed sensitive steering or filtering at all. As they would be applying a lot of turning angle on the front wheels very rapidly, which will result in a lot of understeer. More so then they would experience with those things. As well as finding it exceptionally hard to counter steer should they need too, as again they would be applying to much steering angle.

To me the cars all feel different with normal steering anyway, and I appreciate the hidden control pad aids whenever I use my control pad. And then I use my wheel, the vast majority of them are automatically turned off. Such as the countersteer aid, and the speed sensitivity. So there is no need whatsoever to use Sim steering on a wheel, unless you just want those extra few credits. To be quite honest, on a wheel anyway, Sim Steering and Normal steering should feel exactly the same. But they don't, and only T10 are going to know for certain why that isn't the case.

 

[Speedster911]

That would not work, as all you would be doing is adding on a dead zone. No point in doing that at all.



When I am talking solely about the wheel, as in my last post, then you really need to stop comparing what myself and others feel on a wheel, to what you feel with a control pad. It is a completely different type of experience. I know that sounds really elitist, but unfortunately it is the honest truth. Not only that, but it may actually confuse someone who is looking for assistance with the game, and quite possibly compound any issues they are facing with car control.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will talk about the controller and a wheel this time though, since you already made the comparisons. I do have experience with both after all.

Now, I have used Sim Steering a fair bit myself on a control pad since its inclusion in Forza. I just personally prefer normal steering, regardless of the device. I am no faster or slower with or without it. As I said before, with sim steering on you need to steer with the throttle much more. And it can often take the need away to countersteer if done right. With normal steering however, I can countersteer with the thumbstick, much in the same way I do when I am using a wheel. Keep in mind here, that I also play Assetto Corsa, Rfactor, iRacing, and even more racing games besides those. And in all of them on a wheel, there are occasions when I have to countersteer. With sim steering turned on in Forza, on a wheel or a control pad. It becomes vastly more difficult to countersteer, more so on the control pad than the wheel. And it just does not feel right to me, and it does not feel like anything I have ever felt in any other sim based racing game. This is why I keep saying that T10 are either right on the money, and all the other devs have got things drastically wrong. Or T10 are the ones who have it wrong, and the other devs are right.

Forza, to me anyway, feels very similar to these racing games while using normal steering on a wheel:

Assetto Corsa.
RaceRoom.
iRacing.
Rfactor 2

And as I said, there are more besides those.

With sim steering turned on however, Forza, to me anyway, feels a lot like Pcars. A game I do not speak very highly off anyway, and a game I put money into during the crowd funding/investment phase. To me, Pcars feels wrong. I cant place my finger on it, and I cant vocalize exactly what I feel with regards to it. But it is the same feeling I get while using sim steering in Forza.

It most likely boils down to the fact that I have played/owned hundreds of racing games since the late 80's/early 90's, and on various different platforms. Even playing some on just a keyboard, and others with a D-pad and 2 buttons (sega master system and NES)

I am off the opinion that a racing games need things like filtering, speed sensitivity, and even something to help with counter steering; when a control pad is in use anyway. This is because you are dealing with such a small range of motion. But that is my opinion, yours is different, and you think sim steering is better. And that is ok, it just shows we are both individuals that make up our own mind. But I also agree that T10 (and other devs) should provide sliders for those things in the options menu, and to be fair, ditch sim steering altogether. Because with the sliders in place for those things, they would no longer be needed. They should be basic options in every single racing game.

The thing here is though, is that you can still have some impressive tank slappers on normal steering. Especially when you are running at my pace or faster. And you can also get into a slide that is just not recoverable. Spend enough time with the drifting community in Forza, and you will see that quite often. Both for wheel users, and control pad users. And even if the options above where added into the game, then you would see a lot of people having some fairly big issues at first. Especially people who try to play the game without any speed sensitive steering or filtering at all. As they would be applying a lot of turning angle on the front wheels very rapidly, which will result in a lot of understeer. More so then they would experience with those things. As well as finding it exceptionally hard to counter steer should they need too, as again they would be applying to much steering angle.

To me the cars all feel different with normal steering anyway, and I appreciate the hidden control pad aids whenever I use my control pad. And then I use my wheel, the vast majority of them are automatically turned off. Such as the countersteer aid, and the speed sensitivity. So there is no need whatsoever to use Sim steering on a wheel, unless you just want those extra few credits. To be quite honest, on a wheel anyway, Sim Steering and Normal steering should feel exactly the same. But they don't, and only T10 are going to know for certain why that isn't the case.

Cool...

As for tank-slappers on normal steering, I can't seem to have that.. even if I drive goofy. SIM is not necessarily more realistic, but it definitely adds that layer of challenge on a pad that makes you work harder on your precision driving skills because you know there are going to be consequences.

I too wish there were sliders for those aids and SSS, with the whole normal/sim steering deal gone altogether. Let the gamer choose how they control the car, but T10 are very VERY hesitant to do that for some reason. I do appreciate normal steering on pad for one thing though - cars generally understeer and slide less and seem to have more front wheel bite.

I appreciate the detailed accounts you leave here for everyone to use as a reference guide. Though, I would urge all Forza players to find their own groove and stick with what they are most comfortable with. I've played Forza long enough to acknowledge the fact that neither is more realistic than the other but does give the player the option (a very basic one) to choose how the car reacts if proper driving techniques are not used.

Can't help but say this but the countersteering is unusually easy on normal steering, but then again, that is just me. I did drift around in the F&F 350Z on Spa yesterday - only mods to the car being better compound, wider tires and max engine upgrades... the thing was drifting like a dream on normal steering. I did not tune it at all. I think the thing is drift-tuned anyway, yes?

One of these days, I think I might have to get a wheel as the hidden aid on the pad get very annoying when you try to late-brake around a corner and want to hit the apex sooner. Budget woes and space in my room are holding me back somewhat, plus don't want to be spending too much time on Forza or gaming for that matter.

 

[VXR]

I still don't get why you want to work harder? If you're driving a car fast and not losing control, I don't necessarily see that as lacking difficulty. To drive fast you have to be adept, you don't drive fast and badly without crashing, so why add in a layer of difficulty that isn't there in a real car? You're either good at it or you slow down.

 

[ImaRobot]

I still don't get why you want to work harder? If you're driving a car fast and not losing control, I don't necessarily see that as lacking difficulty. To drive fast you have to be adept, you don't drive fast and badly without crashing, so why add in a layer of difficulty that isn't there in a real car? You're either good at it or you slow down.

I've been dabbling with it, and have adjust fairly well so far. One major problem that makes the steering mode so annoying is having to deal with crashers/rammers online. If you get hit(which is basically a guarantee online) you are sent flying and spinning off into the distance.

 

[mikez]

Hey Guys.

I just read the first post.

Im a semi-sim racer since NFS Shift came out, since then i played most time nordschleife. First in shift, then GT4, shift 2, GT5, GT6, project CARS. Overall im mostly driving this track because love - I think i have around 1000 virtual laps on this.
All of course from the beginning with G25 and so on.

After being bored from the other games, i thought give forza6 a shot, bought myself a xone + g920, and now i could puke, because of the money blown away for CRAP.

One sentence: The whole physics are totally messed up, forza 6 is a drifting simulator for controller crash-kids, but no semi-sim racing game for FFB wheel players.
The force feedback isnt there. There is none, just a bit vibration here and there, but there is no definition whether or not you have grip or are about to lose it.
In all of the mentioned games minus forza, when you go in oversteer, the force feedback counter turns itself in the right position, the same as it is in real life, for example. This is wholely missing in forza - There is no counter steering from the FFB, just a bit vibration.

The mentioned oversteer by driving in corners is ********. I never experienced such behaviour in the other games, nor in real life, where im street racing a GT86 on windy country roads.

If you have the possibility to compare forza to e.g. project cars, its worlds between.
I was tearing my hair out, swearing that my neighbours showed up, etc, because i thought wtf is wrong with me, this physics arent real, they are just BULL-****ING-****.

And no: Its not me as i have seen as i tried pcars on the pc with the same wheel.

There is no excuse and no explanation that this is so messed up - Its unbelievable.

 

[ImaRobot]

One sentence: The whole physics are totally messed up, forza 6 is a drifting simulator for controller crash-kids, but no semi-sim racing game for FFB wheel players.

I would say take the time to actually get acquainted with the game before damning it. Make sure to change your deadzones, and modulation is key. It may just be lack of experience with the given game. As for FFB, I have heard issues with it as well, but I can't speak there as I don't have a wheel.

The mentioned oversteer by driving in corners is ********. I never experienced such behaviour in the other games, nor in real life, where im street racing a GT86 on windy country roads.

It seems like your issues is with FFB, rather than the actual physics of the game.

If you have the possibility to compare forza to e.g. project cars, its worlds between.
I was tearing my hair out, swearing that my neighbours showed up, etc, because i thought wtf is wrong with me, this physics arent real, they are just BULL-****ING-****.

I can't say that I notice that great a difference between the two but that might boil down to me using a pad. It does definitely do things that Forza isnt doing, but the idea and approach is generally the same(Sim steering, compared to PCars steering input.) The game just seems to grip too much, oddly enough. I haven't tried it since it's early days, though.

And no: Its not me as i have seen as i tried pcars on the pc with the same wheel.

There is no excuse and no explanation that this is so messed up - Its unbelievable.

It's hard to grasp what is going on in your situation. Posting a recording of your experience would help us.

 

[mikez]

@ImaRobot: One sentence: Yes, you cant understand this because of controller.

I must say, i first played one week with controller, and IT FELT GREAT. It made sense, the cars arent oversteering instantly on slightest turn-in, and so on.
And then i got the wheel and played for a week to get used to it, but i gave up as soon as i played pcars. Its just underwhelming bad in forza6.

One point is: The wheel is too sensitive: Even with 900 degrees its just a too narrow space to work (about 10cm turn in every direction = full steering lock. Where in pcars i can turn a whole revolution and have full steering lock.
And theres no place where i can adjust this.

How you mean posting a rec of my exp?

 

[ImaRobot]

@ImaRobot: One sentence: Yes, you cant understand this because of controller.

So then, with that said, maybe its not the physics but the peripheral used..

I must say, i first played one week with controller, and IT FELT GREAT. It made sense, the cars arent oversteering instantly on slightest turn-in, and so on.
And then i got the wheel and played for a week to get used to it, but i gave up as soon as i played pcars. Its just underwhelming bad in forza6.

..And this just seems to solidify my assumption.

One point is: The wheel is too sensitive: Even with 900 degrees its just a too narrow space to work (about 10cm turn in every direction = full steering lock. Where in pcars i can turn a whole revolution and have full steering lock.
And theres no place where i can adjust this.

Yes, there is. Go to controller options, and press the button for the Advanced options(I'm not sure what one, so you'll have to look at the screen.) Can't you also change the settings for the wheel itself? There are wheel users here, so hopefully they'll chime in later.

How you mean posting a rec of my exp?

Xbox has a DVR app that lets you record 5 minutes of gameplay, or you can double tap the Xbox Button and press X to record 30 seconds.

 

[mikez]

That advanced opts i found, thats also the place where to config the degrees. I tried 540 and 900. 540 is of course double twitchy.

My Problem is i could just post a forza6 one, because pcars is running on PC.

Another guy said his physics feel great with a fanatec wheel...
Maybe its really the g920 in combination with the xone.

 

[ImaRobot]

That advanced opts i found, thats also the place where to config the degrees. I tried 540 and 900. 540 is of course double twitchy.

My Problem is i could just post a forza6 one, because pcars is running on PC.

Another guy said his physics feel great with a fanatec wheel...
Maybe its really the g920 in combination with the xone.

Don't forget you can also change the deadzones too, that might help you a bit. I believe @Ialyrn also uses that wheel, so maybe she could help you out with her settings.

 

[mikez]

Deadzones arent a problem, with the wheel let go its perfectly running straight on 1% inner deadzone.
Also the pedals arent applying when not pressed, so i think thats ok.

 

[Ialyrn]

@mikez I use the same wheel, and I have played Pcars. Physics wise, Forza is better. FFB wise, at least when the settings are done right, Pcars is better. Physics and FFB are not one in the same thing however, so dont confuse the two. The FFB in Forza does need work, and I will 100% agree on that. Sounds like you have sim steering turned on to me!

As for Forza been a drift simulator, it really isn't. Personally I find it has a lot of grip, and a great many people agree. There are others though, like yourself, that say the opposite. But it is a minority.

I would highly suggest checking your deadzone settings, steering should be at 0/100, so should the accelerator. I would say to set the deceleration at whatever you prefer though.

I would also highly suggest turning off "Rumble", and setting "vibration" to 0%. I find that with them on, it really messes with the actual force feedback. I have not run Vibration/Rumble since the first week I had the G920 wheel, and I never ever have an issue knowing what is happening with the car. And make sure you have sim steering turned off, it does not play nice on a wheel at all. Sim steering is made to remove hidden aids that are in place on the default control pad when normal steering is in use. When a racing wheel is in use however, these hidden aids are turned off automatically. If you turn on sim steering on a wheel however, it makes things overly sensitive and twitchy at the wheels center. And it makes the entire game feel wrong.

Also, the in game in cockpit wheel animation is just that, it is there for show, and is not connected to the physics in anyway. It should never be used as an indication of your steering while using 900° capable wheel. The animation only shows 90° left or right, which shows a total of 180°. This is because most people playing forza, are doing so with the default Xbox one game pad. And the thumbstick is emulating 180° of steering rotation from a wheel.

This thread is 6 pages long, so it may be of benefit to read through it all carefully.

One sentence: Yes, you cant understand this because of controller.

No need to cop such an attitude though, @ImaRobot is only trying to help. Fair enough they do not have a wheel, but they are a very rapid driver in Forza with some serious skill.

And to finish off, a link to my youtube page. I have a few videos up there of using the G920 wheel in Forza. I show in game telemetry on a lot of them, and I always run 900° in the road cars. ABS/TCS/STM are turned off also.

https://www.youtube.com/user/SongDesire/videos

 

[ImaRobot]

Deadzones arent a problem, with the wheel let go its perfectly running straight on 1% inner deadzone.
Also the pedals arent applying when not pressed, so i think thats ok.

Deadzones can definitely be part of the problem, because if you have the inside set to about 20, it ignores a good amount of rotation before the turning actually kicks in. That sudden jolt might be what is causing you to get thrusted into oversteer situations. Deadzone only effect input, nothing else.

 

[dopedog]

Hey Guys.

I just read the first post.

Im a semi-sim racer since NFS Shift came out, since then i played most time nordschleife. First in shift, then GT4, shift 2, GT5, GT6, project CARS. Overall im mostly driving this track because love - I think i have around 1000 virtual laps on this.
All of course from the beginning with G25 and so on.

After being bored from the other games, i thought give forza6 a shot, bought myself a xone + g920, and now i could puke, because of the money blown away for CRAP.

One sentence: The whole physics are totally messed up, forza 6 is a drifting simulator for controller crash-kids, but no semi-sim racing game for FFB wheel players.
The force feedback isnt there. There is none, just a bit vibration here and there, but there is no definition whether or not you have grip or are about to lose it.
In all of the mentioned games minus forza, when you go in oversteer, the force feedback counter turns itself in the right position, the same as it is in real life, for example. This is wholely missing in forza - There is no counter steering from the FFB, just a bit vibration.

The mentioned oversteer by driving in corners is ********. I never experienced such behaviour in the other games, nor in real life, where im street racing a GT86 on windy country roads.

If you have the possibility to compare forza to e.g. project cars, its worlds between.
I was tearing my hair out, swearing that my neighbours showed up, etc, because i thought wtf is wrong with me, this physics arent real, they are just BULL-****ING-****.

And no: Its not me as i have seen as i tried pcars on the pc with the same wheel.

There is no excuse and no explanation that this is so messed up - Its unbelievable.[/QUOTE

You say you 'street race'.... your a knob.

A really angry knob...

 

[mikez]

@lalyrn: Your hints with the rumble and vibration im trying out, that thing with sim/normal mode makes sense to me, i also check that out.

The thing with the controller was not meant offensive, just mentioning, because i felt that huge difference between controller and wheel, for with the controller the game being way more gentle to one. But, as you said - Thats maybe just the diff between normal and sim.

I'll give it a try with normal steering model

@ImaRobot: Yes, i understand with the deadzones.

 

[ImaRobot]

@lalyrn: Your hints with the rumble and vibration im trying out, that thing with sim/normal mode makes sense to me, i also check that out.

The thing with the controller was not meant offensive, just mentioning, because i felt that huge difference between controller and wheel, for with the controller the game being way more gentle to one. But, as you said - Thats maybe just the diff between normal and sim.

I'll give it a try with normal steering model

@ImaRobot: Yes, i understand with the deadzones.

No worries, I didn't take offense to it. It was to the point, but that's about it.

 

[Speedster911]

I still don't get why you want to work harder? If you're driving a car fast and not losing control, I don't necessarily see that as lacking difficulty. To drive fast you have to be adept, you don't drive fast and badly without crashing, so why add in a layer of difficulty that isn't there in a real car? You're either good at it or you slow down.

Not harder, just more nuanced. You need to be more mindful of the inputs that's all. Normal has an additional layer of filtering to save you even if you're not practicing good race craft - it's down to simple left/right movements and you can recover easily from slides even at high speeds with cars that are twitchy and tricky to drive IRL too. Sim has you making more corrections because the road surface will affect your steering more.

You just have to spend more time with it to get to know how it works. Otherwise there's always normal steering. I've done plenty of testing lap times in both steering modes. Neither one is faster than the other, trust me. If you want to feel the car better, I'd suggest sim.

@ImaRobot at one time wasn't a very big fan of sim either. Now he's trying it on and seems to be coming to grips with it (pun intended).

Give it time, and I assure you, there will never be a race where you want to go back to normal. Anyway, just my two, you are of course, free to select the mode that caters to your preferences.

 

[ImaRobot]

@ImaRobot at one time wasn't a very big fan of sim either. Now he's trying it on and seems to be coming to grips with it (pun intended).

Yeah, but the only reason I've actually tried coming to grips with it, is that dead steering bug we both seem to get. In Sim mode, it hardly pops up. I've noticed that even when it does pop up, its not to the same degree as I would get before.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Sim has you making more corrections because the road surface will affect your steering more.

Except that isn't the case. Sim steering is only different from Normal when it comes to counter-steering. It has nothing to do with the surface.

You just have to spend more time with it to get to know how it works. Otherwise there's always normal steering. I've done plenty of testing lap times in both steering modes. Neither one is faster than the other, trust me. If you want to feel the car better, I'd suggest sim.

A placebo affect. You're not getting any more detailed feedback; you're just required to treat the controller's little stick differently than you would in Normal (and most other games).

Case in point: after experimenting with it last week, I went back to doing my Lime Rock laps. I had the front-drive touring cars up next, and I didn't even realize I had Sim steering on for a couple of them, until I went to the BMW and had a slide. There's really no difference between the modes until there's a slip angle involved.

 

[ImaRobot]

A placebo affect. You're not getting any more detailed feedback; you're just required to treat the controller's little stick differently than you would in Normal (and most other games).

Case in point: after experimenting with it last week, I went back to doing my Lime Rock laps. I had the front-drive touring cars up next, and I didn't even realize I had Sim steering on for a couple of them, until I went to the BMW and had a slide. There's really no difference between the modes until there's a slip angle involved.

This pretty much sums it up. I did not have to change my way of driving at all. I still tap the sticks to get things done. Where I feel the difference is when I'm actually sideways trying to save it. I noticed that its better if I leave the steering neutral for a little, it's much easier to catch. It's a odd habit to get into though, as I'm used to counter steering instantly.

 

[Speedster911]

This pretty much sums it up. I did not have to change my way of driving at all. I still tap the sticks to get things done. Where I feel the difference is when I'm actually sideways trying to save it. I noticed that its better if I leave the steering neutral for a little, it's much easier to catch. It's a odd habit to get into though, as I'm used to counter steering instantly.

And I can relate to this and a little something off-topic but relevant regardless: FM5's sim steering model feels more realistic when going into slides and getting back on grip. By the way, they hired help from Calspan to do the physics in 5; are F6 physics completely in-house?

 

[Ialyrn]

Where I feel the difference is when I'm actually sideways trying to save it. I noticed that its better if I leave the steering neutral for a little, it's much easier to catch. It's a odd habit to get into though, as I'm used to counter steering instantly.

Exactly what I said in terms of counter steering with sim steering on a game pad back on page 4.

While drifting with sim steering, you have to allow the car to do its own thing before you attempt to counter steer at all. By this I mean you need the thumbstick either turning into the corner itself, or sitting in a neutral position, in other words dead center. And you have to keep it like this for a shot time, which is actually counter intuitive and not how it works in real life, or in other simulation based racing games. This is because of how sensitive those first couple of degrees of movement are while using sim steering.

And in the same post I had this to say about counter steering on normal.

While drifting with Normal steering however, you are able to apply counter steering right away, which is what you should be able to do with sim steering. Fair enough that normal steering, on a game pad anyway, has an assist for this. On a wheel however, there is no counter steer assist in place on normal steering. Just like there is no speed sensitive steering assist. It is all down to the person controlling the car.

Which clearly shows that with those hidden aids in place, normal is actually the more realistic steering mode for a game pad. This is why I say that "sim steering" should be called "hardcore mode" instead.

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By the way, they hired help from Calspan to do the physics in 5; are F6 physics completely in-house?

T10 didn't hire Calspan to help with the physics or physics calculations, they hired them to test excessive stress on real world tires in a lab environment. This is because you can not get accurate and consistent data from testing tires on the road or track. I would assume that T10 have stuck with that data for FM6, but they never mentioned anything on the tire data this time around.

 

[Speedster911]

T10 didn't hire Calspan to help with the physics or physics calculations, they hired them to test excessive stress on real world tires in a lab environment. This is because you can not get accurate and consistent data from testing tires on the road or track. I would assume that T10 have stuck with that data for FM6, but they never mentioned anything on the tire data this time around.

I feel F5 physics are more spot-on and nuanced, on a controller anyway; I use sim by default, 0/100 deads.

Your thoughts on that Ialyrn?

 

[SlipZtrEm]