Where did PD go Wrong?

[Griffith500]

Well when the guy said back on track I assumed he meant in terms of churning out a quality game. Obviously that will always be an opinion but general opinion seems to be that it's not back on terms with the older games. Metacritic of 81, etc.

Whilst of course nobody here can give a reason for slow sales one would assume most of them are as a result of GT5 in one way or another and for whatever reason GT6 did not appeal to them. As you say PD have much more data to work with than us and hopefully they can fathom it out. Otherwise I can't see how this series is going to keep going forward. Some change is needed and hopefully PD have worked out what it is.

The fact they've shared no numbers of any sort like they did with GT5 suggests they aren't happy with them and realise there are problems.

There is no real metric to suggest that, amongst GT's largest target demographic, that anything is actually seriously "wrong" - anything else is, as you say, an assumption. Amongst those who have for years wished GT was something it's not, it's just business as usual. Mainstream reviewers have strange expectations these days, and for publicity's sake, tend to mirror whatever vocal minority looks coolest at any given moment, or sit on the fence between two equally cool but opposing outlooks to "encourage debate" - individual journalists align their own integrity within that system as best they can, if it even bothers them.

Disappointment with GT5 will play its part. Disillusionment with missing features in GT6 will play its part. People realising that GT isn't the game they want it to be will play their part. It is highly unlikely that that is significant in any way, because the vast majority of gamers don't have the same type of expectations as we do. I've come to terms with that, and is why I'm relatively chilled out about it: there are lots of games, and there could be even more if we encourage it.

I'd suggest the lack of numbers is simply because they're not as "impressive", either relatively, or on their own. Sony's focus lies with PS4 anyway, I don't know if they've shared numbers there (that might be the bigger embarrassment, I don't know). If they're worried at all, it'll be with whatever is causing the delay within PD at the moment.

 

[Samus]

Well I'd argue sales are a pretty good metric of something being wrong, as are review scores. Of course reviews are just opinion as always but I don't think you could disagree with any of the faults various reviewers found with GT6. I'm not going to retread them again here as we all know what they are but suffice to say a lot of them have been around in the GT series for a long time.

As for where the millions of sales have gone again we can only make assumptions. I agree that for many our expectations are way above what they want, plus you will have some that loved GT5 but just weren't big enough car fans to warrant another game just like it. I would guess that if the jump in content were more similar to GT3 and GT4 then it may have warranted a new purchase for those people. Timing obviously plays a big part as well, there is no doubt releasing a month after the PS4 with little promotion didn't help one bit, however I'd imagine Sony and PD still expected better returns than they're seemingly getting. This is of course still all based on unofficial numbers but the complete silence from Sony/PD regarding any numbers the game is doing and heavy discounting suggests they're probably not far off, as you say they wouldn't share them in they're not impressive.

Still as I said either earlier in this thread or another, hopefully the data gathered from GT6 sales and playing is enough for PD to realise they need to rethink some things. I really hope they do because direct competiton is likely never to appear, given the budget that would be required. As much as it may surprise some people here I would hate to see GT disappear entirely and be left with only racing focused games like Project CARS which I'm looking forward to but games of that ilk will never be able to offer hundreds of cars and other such amenities as they don't have the budget or the connections.

 

[synon]

Terrible comparison. Race Pro was a first time console release, on a puny budget by a 3rd party developer. So of course it was never going to sell in huge numbers like a first party AAA title. But, had they pumped some more money in. Maybe upped the graphics just a little and fixed the many glitches I know I would still be playing it today as would MANY other sim minded console racers.

You say GT is foremost a game. That's where it's lacking more than any other area is "game". Physics are great, cars are great, tracks are great. There's just so little to actually do with it besides grinding or aimlessly driving around.

I wasn't really comparing Race Pro with GT.
Simbin aren't inexperienced when it comes to racing games and the game has a metacritic score of 72 so the reviews weren't bad, yet the sales were quite low.

 

[HKS racer]

I wasn't really comparing Race Pro with GT.
Simbin aren't inexperienced when it comes to racing games and the game has a metacritic score of 72 so the reviews weren't bad, yet the sales were quite low.

So you are one of those people "no simulators on console because Race Pro didn't sell well". Interesting.

 

[Samus]

I wasn't really comparing Race Pro with GT.
Simbin aren't inexperienced when it comes to racing games and the game has a metacritic score of 72 so the reviews weren't bad, yet the sales were quite low.

It wasn't promoted at all.

 

[machschnel]

By the time they will actually release the tack editor, community features and the necessary bug fixes, lot's of people will have long forgotten about the game, so another 'fail' there in an already incompetent way of managing a product from the start...

This is very relevant.

How long do most people keep playing a game these days? How long before they trade it in? Most GT players don't come to GTPlanet and probably have no idea that features/DLC are "coming". I wonder how many potential customers Polyphony lose everyday the DLC isn't released?

 

[Griffith500]

Well I'd argue sales are a pretty good metric of something being wrong, as are review scores. Of course reviews are just opinion as always but I don't think you could disagree with any of the faults various reviewers found with GT6. I'm not going to retread them again here as we all know what they are but suffice to say a lot of them have been around in the GT series for a long time.

As for where the millions of sales have gone again we can only make assumptions. I agree that for many our expectations are way above what they want, plus you will have some that loved GT5 but just weren't big enough car fans to warrant another game just like it. I would guess that if the jump in content were more similar to GT3 and GT4 then it may have warranted a new purchase for those people. Timing obviously plays a big part as well, there is no doubt releasing a month after the PS4 with little promotion didn't help one bit, however I'd imagine Sony and PD still expected better returns than they're seemingly getting. This is of course still all based on unofficial numbers but the complete silence from Sony/PD regarding any numbers the game is doing and heavy discounting suggests they're probably not far off, as you say they wouldn't share them in they're not impressive.

Still as I said either earlier in this thread or another, hopefully the data gathered from GT6 sales and playing is enough for PD to realise they need to rethink some things. I really hope they do because direct competiton is likely never to appear, given the budget that would be required. As much as it may surprise some people here I would hate to see GT disappear entirely and be left with only racing focused games like Project CARS which I'm looking forward to but games of that ilk will never be able to offer hundreds of cars and other such amenities as they don't have the budget or the connections.

I think with everything considered in context as you describe, I'd agree that a general trend toward apathy can be seen. I've not read any reviews for GT6 yet (it's not, technically, "finished"), so perhaps I'm out of touch in that regard. It'd be hard to say whether this is PD not delivering on their own goals (these "future updates" must account for some of the missing engagement people are feeling with GT6, I know it's the case with me despite the better physics) to their own satisfaction as much as ours, or whether it's "gamers", in the broadest sense, moving on and tastes / expectations changing (and, to a degree, leaving the likes of us "behind" with it).

The problem with the latter is that it should affect all racing games, so it'll be interesting to see if that materialises in the coming years, in terms of the viability of a true "hardcore" racing game with such a big budget hanging off of it. PCARS, Assetto Corsa, rFactor 2 and the others, possibly even Forza to an extent (which we can see has been forced to adapt as the series has progressed), would surely serve as the barometer of change on that front in the coming years. For now we're pretty blessed with choice.

On the other hand, the lower barrier to entry in terms of reaching a market, no matter how small, should mean that anything and everything can have a chance of carving its own little niche. I just don't know if big budget games really are sustainable with ever increasing depth and breadth, i.e. whether a game that offers, as you say, hundreds / thousands of cars and literally all the bells and whistles is actually a realistic expectation moving forwards, or whether we should expect to resign ourselves to get our fix from some number of smaller games instead.

As usual on this, we're forced to sit and wait to find out!

 

[eSZee]

There is one thing that is just about keeping me from leaping over-board and that is the fact that the GT6 official website is still listing the features that are (allegedly) coming in future updates. PD is not a small and insignificant producer and as such, it seems unlikely that they would leave such material on the website if they had no intention of following through with it. More likely would be a stealth update to the site and an understated news article mentioning GT7.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a clear indication of intent but its certainly a smoking gun, isn't it?

I think VGT cars would be a another reason as to why the game isn't abandoned. There are 28 companies that were promised big exposure reveals for their future creations. I'm sure there's a lot of money involved when it comes to that, I just wonder if it was sony paying them or they paying sony?

 

[Tornado]

I genuinely don't remember that, but it's relatively insignificant in scope and impact compared with what's projected for GT6 yet.

I don't believe it is too much to assume that people bought GT5: P for that reason alone once it was announced. Sony certainly reaffirmed that you would be able to do so when they started pushing GT5 directly, starting around the time of GT Academy 2009; after first announcing it in June of that year.



And regardless of what extent you want to argue the significance of one of the main advertised features of one of the games compared to the main advertised features of one of the other games, the fact of the matter is that it was listed on the splash page for GT5: Prologue from at least October 2009 all the way up to when Sony officially announced GT6 and they redid the entire site in May of last year. That at least suggests that either whoever updates the international versions of the site doesn't actually have his finger on the pulse of GT news (which is likely, since about the only time the GT site acts as an actual source for anything is for patch notes), Sony didn't feel it fit to confirm the dropping of a feature from the game (which is also likely, since it wouldn't have been the first time) or that the oft-neglected site doesn't get updated much at all unless it suits Sony at the time to do so (which is also likely considering it isn't).

It definitely doesn't prove that a feature still being listed on the site means that you will eventually get that feature. In fact, I would say it was the opposite of this:

I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a clear indication of intent but its certainly a smoking gun, isn't it?

Since we know those things are supposed to be coming but their continued presence on the website isn't why.

 

[Griffith500]

I don't believe it is too much to assume that people bought GT5: P for that reason alone. Sony certainly reaffirmed that you would be able to do so when they started pushing GT5 directly, starting around the time of GT Academy 2009.



And regardless of what extent you want to argue the significance of one of the main advertised features of one of the games compared to the main advertised features of one of the other games, the fact of the matter is that it was listed on the splash page for GT5: Prologue from at least October 2009 all the way up to when Sony officially announced GT6 and they redid the entire site in May of last year. That at least suggests that either whoever updates the international versions of the site doesn't actually have his finger on the pulse of GT news (which is likely, since about the only time the GT site acts as an actual source for anything is for patch notes), Sony didn't feel it fit to confirm the dropping of a feature from the game (which is also likely, since it wouldn't have been the first time) or that the oft-neglected site doesn't get updated much at all unless it suits Sony at the time to do so (which is also likely considering it isn't).
It definitely doesn't prove that a feature still being listed on the site means that you will eventually get that feature.

All of which I'd say is correct (it certainly seems reasonable to me). I just feel that the sheer quantity of things still listed on the website is a little harder to ignore when it affects every GT6 player. That garage transfer only applied to those who bought both GT5 and its Prologue. And whilst the number of people falling into that category is likely to be "significant", I'd still argue it's a minor feature in terms of impact. That's as compared to, say, the missing online in GT4 or the missing B-Spec in GT6, even before the community features and the course creator (this is surely massive) etc.

I think the website (staff) is indeed somewhat detached, generally, but aside from PD directly badgering Sony to update it (at which point they'd be better off doing it themselves), I think it comes down to the focus (expenditure) that Sony feels is necessary to put on the website at any given time. Naturally, around updates and the like, Sony will be happy to update things, but a periodic audit / verification of all information is perhaps (and I'm not making excuses for them) harder for them to justify, for whatever reasons. (I wonder if the Japanese site, or any of the others, is the same). What exactly is it the regional "producers" do?

It is technically possible that PD will suddenly decide that these many and wonderful things listed on the website can't be done for GT6, and move them along into GT7 Prologue, or whatever, but then it's up to Sony to orchestrate breaking the bad news, including via the website. Ideally, Kaz would give an explanation (again I think it'd be implicit) and an apology etc. etc., maybe, if we're super-lucky, a good-will gesture for those who bought GT6 to get a free copy of GT7 Prologue (just buy a PS4, yeah?), or whatever, Sony permitting.

In that respect, something will come of it, because it cannot be ignored; it is so substantial a projection of intended features that it'll be a little too conspicuous hiding under the rug, I feel.

 

[Mulan]

Well i belive the right action was to hold GT6 for ps4, that was always the best logic as i could see it in the discussions 18 months ago. GT5 would be good enough with small tweaks and some DLC to still the hunger.
Still many in here wanted it for ps3. What if Sony and PD thought that if so many liked it here on GTP then it would be a success. Well hope they learned a lesson, a gameseries must evolve each new version if they come with years appart.
Even longtime followers can start to doubt otherwise and they are still the best spokespersons PD has.

 

[Samus]

Are you seriously suggesting Sony might have based such a huge decision on what a few hundred people here wanted?

 

[MustangManiac]

Well i belive the right action was to hold GT6 for ps4, that was always the best logic as i could see it in the discussions 18 months ago. GT5 would be good enough with small tweaks and some DLC to still the hunger.
Still many in here wanted it for ps3. What if Sony and PD thought that if so many liked it here on GTP then it would be a success. Well hope they learned a lesson, a gameseries must evolve each new version if they come with years appart.
Even longtime followers can start to doubt otherwise and they are still the best spokespersons PD has.

I am not sure it had anything to do with what people here wanted. As I understand it, Kaz himself said they were working on GT6 before 5 was released. That being the case, the programming would have been for the PS3's cell architecture. Programming for the PS4's X86 architecture would have meant pretty much starting from scratch so why not get GT6 out for the PS3 and then move on to the new system? Throwing away most of 3 years work on the cell-PS3 would have been a big waste!

 

[Mulan]

I am not sure it had anything to do with what people here wanted. As I understand it, Kaz himself said they were working on GT6 before 5 was released. That being the case, the programming would have been for the PS3's cell architecture. Programming for the PS4's X86 architecture would have meant pretty much starting from scratch so why not get GT6 out for the PS3 and then move on to the new system? Throwing away most of 3 years work on the cell-PS3 would have been a big waste!

Not so sure they did it that way.
They certainly were at idea stage,
doing tracks, cars and so on. By this time ps4 architecture was quite known to them. If DriveClub was almost ready so could GT been.
But maybe that was the problem too, 2 racinggames at once would not be so good.

Are you seriously suggesting Sony might have based such a huge decision on what a few hundred people here wanted?

Politics are changed by polls and what the grassroot does on similar way so yes it can have impact. But not just on this site.
And no i dont belive it was just that
its alot more complex but what drop made the water to spill i dont know.

 

[Tenacious D]

Yes, and this is the golden age of sports cars.

Oof .... Did I really just read that?
View attachment 130109

Yes, and I would go back to 1980 and include that too. But let's just stick to 1990-2000. Has anyone thought to consider the sheer number of sport oriented cars produced in that decade, the Miatas, the RX-7s, the Silvias, Mustangs, Accords and Preludes and Del Sols, Integras, RSXs and TSXs, 240s and 300s, WRXs and Lancers, the Eclipses and 3000GTs, Celicas and Supras? And then what came since the Millennium? And how winnowed down the economy market is in comparison to the higher end, inhabited by Corvette, Beemer, Lexus and beyond? Sure, there are some nice ones that won't kill your bank account, Mustang still going strong, Genesis and Velocitor and Optima, Scion, GT-86/BRZ, WRX and Lancer, Camaro, Charger and Neon, but the pickings in the range we mortals can expect to afford isn't as well stocked now as it used to be. How many here own a Porsche?

I'm kind of tired of doing all the research when challenged. How about I issue a challenge this time? If the sports car world is just as thick with rides as it's been since the 90s, how about someone with hours to spend collating detail just how many there were/are, and how many below $35,000 US versus above? Me, it's late and I intend to get some shuteye in a bit.

I would like to add some 24 bit 96khz to the discussion later on though.

 

[Crispy]

Where did PD go wrong? I'll tell you.

PD went wrong when they attempted to use PS2 level development strategies to develop increasingly complicated, difficult, and time consuming games. Furthermore the head of PD is so focused on his dream, racing cars while making a perfect game with all these features. The reality is you can't be a pro-racer and develop games at the same time. They need someone with a level head on their shoulders and realistic goals. What makes it worse is the quality control has gone over the top. When you have one person doing one thing, nothing will get done completely.

Furthermore, their idea of competing in this increasingly difficult market is to lie about features. If something is printed on the box of the game and in the manual, yet missing from the game, then you can get in serious legal trouble. (Let us not mention it's bad business.)

If GT wants to continue to be the best racing game on Playstation, as it always claims to be, then it needs to undergo some serious management changes. There is absolutely no way that GT7 and GT8 will be successes if they keep up this development pattern on the PS4. GT, and PD, will tank.

 

[gambleboyen]

I think VGT cars would be a another reason as to why the game isn't abandoned. There are 28 companies that were promised big exposure reveals for their future creations. I'm sure there's a lot of money involved when it comes to that, I just wonder if it was sony paying them or they paying sony?

I have my doubt about all these cars ever seeing the virtual light of day in GT6.

 

[STiG39]

GT6 sales will propably go up when the GT academy starts again. Sony and PD are probably waiting for just that. The GT series is so deep into our brains, that we have sometimes tunnelvision. It was a revolution 15 years ago. Today, there are other games, maybe copying the game, but also often improving it. PD sits in its golden cage, assured of his followers. GT reminds me of apple. I´m not a fan of Apple and this cult. Yet I´m doing the same with the GT series. But there is a limit. If they continue the way they perform right now, that might be the end of being a "follower". If they don´t want to lose what they have... there need to be some major changes... and GT7 will have to be a huge and major improvement. GT7 on PS4! PD, this is your chance, do it right or leave it.

 

[Tornado]

Yes, and I would go back to 1980 and include that too.

Since the GT series barely touches that decade in comparison, you really can't for your argument.

Miatas,

A good example for your point.

the RX-7s,

Nope:

the pickings in the range we mortals can expect to afford

the Silvias

240s

I suppose you could consider this an example, though about the most you could say for the one sold here was that it looked sporty (as opposed to the one from the 1980s, which was actually competitive).

Mustangs,

In continuous production for 50 years so not really much of an example.

Accords

Far more often than not, a generic sedan.

Preludes

A good example for your point.

Del Sols

Not really particularly sporty, but okay.

Integras

A good example for your point.

RSX

Started production in 2001.

and TSXs

Started production in 2003.

300s

Nope:

the pickings in the range we mortals can expect to afford

WRXs and Lancers, the Eclipses

These would all be examples, though the former two were much more niche than they ever were post-2000.

3000GTs

Nope:

the pickings in the range we mortals can expect to afford

Celicas

The Celica is an odd duck, since whether or not it could be considered "sporty" depended entirely on which version of the car you were looking at. For example, from 1994 to 1998 the Toyota Camry coupe was a sportier car than the Celica if you lived in America; because at least with the Camry (which otherwise shared quite a bit of drivetrain components with that Celica) you could get an engine that had some power.

Supras

Nope:

the pickings in the range we mortals can expect to afford

I'm kind of tired of doing all the research when challenged. How about I issue a challenge this time? If the sports car world is just as thick with rides as it's been since the 90s, how about someone with hours to spend collating detail just how many there were/are, and how many below $35,000 US versus above?

I'm not going to pretend to speak for everyone else who challenged the notion that the 1990s was the golden age of sports cars (rather than the collapse of most of the sports car market along with the Japanese economy), but if I had to guess I would say that they could just as easily been referring to the 1960s (which the GT series for the most part just ignores) or the 1980s (which they don't do that much better with, even though most of the models that died in the 1990s were much better sellers in the prior decade) instead of necessarily talking about the here and now. Though it's certainly a lot easier to find a sub-Corvette priced sporty car now than it was after 1992 or so (even when acknowledging the examples you missed), and you definitely have a rather misinformed concept about how affordable the Japanese sports cars of that era actually were.

 

[Swagger897]

. If something is printed on the box of the game and in the manual, yet missing from the game, then you can get in serious legal trouble.

HELLOOOOOOO??!!!!??

If they are really planning for a scrap job of 6 right now, that's really gonna piss me off. A lot. And to think we won't get any features? A joke.

I haven't heard anything about the Senna package lately of its progress, nothing of the Interlagos or Carlos San Jose (or whatever it's called, can't think off top of head) and nothing lately of Ronda, which was leaked to be out 21 (or 22) days ago.

Communication is what's wrong. When people see what the hold up is, that's when it will be better..

But if it's projections of scrapping 6 right now, pitchforks and torches (not flashlights) will be dissented to Japan..

 

[danielc]

I present you with a new innovation in mobbing...

With this new innovation in pitchfork and torch technology you can do twice the angry mobbing in half the time! Introducing The Torchfork.

 

[Swagger897]

I present you with a new innovation in mobbing...

With this new innovation in pitchfork and torch technology you can do twice the angry mobbing in half the time! Introducing The Torchfork.

Is that coming in a future update? Nice features and I'd definitly like them.... But I got a weird feeling it's gonna be a bust..

 

[danielc]

Wait, if you call now, you'll get 2 refills for the torches!
AND
Calling now and ordering 3 you and 5 of your closest mobbers will be enjoying this once in a lifetime promotion!
So you'll get 5 torchforks and 10 refills
Plus a bonus of an industrial strenght lighter!
Only if you call NOW!
Lol

 

[Swagger897]

*and if you ever run out of fuel, we offer refills starting at $59.99 for three fluid oz. That's right, enough fuel for 30 seconds more, only $59.99

All of this is a big laugh at PD if you haven't gotten it yet.. (Micro transactions...)

 

[disneyland5]

You wanna know where they went wrong for years?! The horrible car sounds thats why!

 

[Swagger897]

Ohh god... Not one of these..

 

[jimipitbull]

You wanna know where they went wrong for years?! The horrible car sounds thats why!

My real car sounds like a vacuum. It sucks!

 

[TokoTurismo]

You wanna know where they went wrong for years?! The horrible car sounds thats why!

My real car sounds like a vacuum. It sucks!

My neighbor's two cars also sounds like vacuum cleaners, and he's always trying to fix them. Really, they really do sound like vacuums. (o_o)

 

[mister dog]

My neighbor's two cars also sounds like vacuum cleaners, and he's always trying to fix them. Really, they really do sound like vacuums. (o_o)

I didn't know vacuum cleaners run on petrol/ diesel and have combustion engines now.

 

[disneyland5]

My neighbor's two cars also sounds like vacuum cleaners, and he's always trying to fix them. Really, they really do sound like vacuums. (o_o)

It seems the PD virus is infecting reality! What's next? Muscle cars? Nooo...