Which classes are faster if they raced???

[GTPorsche]

Qualifying and race aren't the same either.

 

[Bo]

The GT300 GT3 cars are faster than other GT3s because of their tyres. It's worth at least a second or two a lap.

 

[MclarenGT]

Qualifying and race aren't the same either.

But generally qualifying laps are faster than in race ones.In qualifier F1 GTR GT1 managed 1:28.908(In race lap was 1:32) but GT3 did 1:34.

The GT300 GT3 cars are faster than other GT3s because of their tyres. It's worth at least a second or two a lap.

Yes,thats the point,GT300 GT3 are not detuned to race in Super GT,they are run as they are in those races but with little upgrades in chassis.Also one thing to not is that Super GT cars have very high cornering speeds compared to FIA GT1 or GT3 and hence faster laps.

 

[Bo]

Yes,thats the point,GT300 GT3 are not detuned to race in Super GT,they are run as they are in those races but with little upgrades in chassis.

Err... nope, they're identical. They run the Blancpain BoP. You could take any GT300 GT3 and enter it in Blancpain, British GT, AU GT etc.

 

[MclarenGT]

Err... nope, they're identical. They run the Blancpain BoP. You could take any GT300 GT3 and enter it in Blancpain, British GT, AU GT etc.

But that wouldn't explain why GT300 GT3 are faster,both use supersoft tires for qualifiers.

 

[Snaeper]

I imagine a lot of this comparison comes down to the tires each car uses, as well.

 

[Bo]

But that wouldn't explain why GT300 GT3 are faster,both use supersoft tires for qualifiers.

There's a difference between a soft-ish compound and a ridiculously grippy compound born out of the biggest tyre war in modern motorsport.

And this has nothing to do with quali-specific setups.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Stop propagating myths. GT3 are restricted in every series they race (for BoP reasons), but so are LMP1, GTE and JAF GT300 as well. To make a comparison comparing "unrestricted" cars is silly because they never run that way, we have no idea how much faster any car could be. It's silly.

Not every series, an unrestricted Vantage GT3 raced at Knockhill last year

 

[MclarenGT]

Not every series, an unrestricted Vantage GT3 raced at Knockhill last year

The unrestricted GT3 also used to race in FIA GT1 Championship but the laptimes were barely faster than stock GT3 cars.

There's a difference between a soft-ish compound and a ridiculously grippy compound born out of the biggest tyre war in modern motorsport.

And this has nothing to do with quali-specific setups.

The biggest difference between GT3 and GT300 is that GT300 cars set faster laptimes every successive years but laptimes for GT3 almost remain constant every year and GT3 is not allowed to developed by manufacturers.That would explain why GT300 cars are faster than GT3.

 

[trustjab]

GT300 cars were a lot slower before. They had the air restrictors opened up a little bit since the GT3's came in. The BRZ runs around 1100-1200kg and has maybe 450hp. GT3's like the Nissan are close to 550-600hp. But theyre at least 100kg more. Most European gt3 series run a control tire. In SuperGT it's an open tire. Like @Bo said, thats the difference maker.

 

[Snaeper]

I believe the VLN/ADAC 24 is the only other place you'll find GT3's on a variety of tires, but (outside of brand-backed efforts) that's more of a "Run what you have performance data on" situation than an actual tire war.

Just another reason why Super GT is an awesome series.

 

[Bo]

laptimes for GT3 almost remain constant every year and GT3 is not allowed to developed by manufacturers.

Completely false. GT3 cars are 3, 4, maybe 5 seconds a lap quicker than they were at their inception. They're developed annually by virtually every manufacturer.

The unrestricted GT3 also used to race in FIA GT1 Championship but the laptimes were barely faster than stock GT3 cars.

Again, completely false. All the GT3 cars run in GT1 in 2012 were BoP'd.

That would explain why GT300 cars are faster than GT3.

GT300 is GT3. Be it an MC, a JAF or a GT3, they're all balanced and equal on performance.

 

[MclarenGT]

Completely false. GT3 cars are 3, 4, maybe 5 seconds a lap quicker than they were at their inception. They're developed annually by virtually every manufacturer.

Again, completely false. All the GT3 cars run in GT1 in 2012 were BoP'd.

GT300 is GT3. Be it an MC, a JAF or a GT3, they're all balanced and equal on performance.

Okay then here are laptimes for last 5 years for spa 24hr series qualifying laps for Audi R8 LMS team
2009 2:21.106 (bright,dry)
2010 2:22.403
2011 2:20.286 (dry, later wet, hot)
2012 2:20.026 (dry,heavy rain,changable)
2013 2:21.727 (warm,dry)
2014 2:18.710 (warm,dry)

Also have a look at algarve times for GT3
2009 1:45.538
2010 1:45.423
2011 1:45.514
2012 1:45.579
2013 1:45.417
2014 1:45.659

You can see that there are various ups and downs in the laptimes depending on weather if it was getting better every year we won't see those ups and downs in laptimes for the same team.
Laptimes are hugely depended on car setup.

Generally national gt championships like spanish gt,swedish gt allow veriety of tires and laptimes are faster than FIA or BES series.

The GT300 you are talking about was a lot slower before establishment of GT3 cars so they are not GT3 cars.Super GT is a head to head comparision with GT3 and GT300.You know,in Super GT fastest lap qualifiers are penalised with extra ballast weight.

 

[Com Fox]

GT300 is GT3. Be it an MC, a JAF or a GT3, they're all balanced and equal on performance.

Just because it is a BoP class, it doesn't make it GT3. GT300 is its own BoP to balance out its own JAF GT, FIAs GT3 and formerly Prototypes and GT2. GT300 is its own thing though it allows GT3 cars to enter.

 

[MatskiMonk]

@Bo do you know what the differences between SGT and SuperTaikyu GT3 cars might be, if any?

Just comparing the top qualifying times at Suzuka between GT3 cars in SGT and SuperTaikyu series, but since the ST results are in Japanese I'm not sure what I'm looking at!




In any case... this thread is fascinating, but really needs some methodology.

 

[Com Fox]

Aren't Super GT GT3 cars more aerodynamic than other GT3? I remember that back in the 2013 3 Hours of Fuji the Super GT GT3 cars completely crushed the AsLMS GT3 even they Super GT GT3 ones that used Michelin Tyres.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Aren't Super GT GT3 cars more aerodynamic than other GT3? I remember that back in the 2013 3 Hours of Fuji the Super GT GT3 cars completely crushed the AsLMS GT3 even they Super GT GT3 ones that used Michelin Tyres.

The super GT GT3 cars are different to the normal GT3 cars.

The GT3 car that one at Le Mans this year was a Super GT spec car which was the took down to a guest car which means they lost the win.

It was so much clearly faster

 

[MclarenGT]

The super GT GT3 cars are different to the normal GT3 cars.

The GT3 car that one at Le Mans this year was a Super GT spec car which was the took down to a guest car which means they lost the win.

It was so much clearly faster

The GT3 car that race in le mans are upgraded to GTE spec aka GT2 spec.They are completely different.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

The GT3 car that race in le mans are upgraded to GTE spec aka GT2 spec.They are completely different.

You didn't watch the video did you?

BTW the GTE car is a V8 not a V12.

 

[MclarenGT]

You didn't watch the video did you?

BTW the GTE car is a V8 not a V12.

In le man series there are 3 categories
LMP1
LMP2
GTLM or GTE.
Having a V12 engine doesn't change GTE to GT3.Le mans 24 hr is a part of world sports car championship
GT3 racing in le man spec does spa in 2;16.42 while GT3 does it in 2:18.504 at its best.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

In le man series there are 3 categories
LMP1
LMP2
GTLM or GTE.
Having a V12 engine doesn't change GTE to GT3.Le mans 24 hr is a part of world sports car championship
GT3 racing in le man spec does spa in 2;16.42 while GT3 does it in 2:18.504 at its best.

Have a parrot

In any case... this thread is fascinating, but really needs some methodology.

What you mean with actual data like this?

Nah cause it's far too funny watching people that think they know

 

[MatskiMonk]

Or @MclarenGT have a more useful response...

Holden was talking about a one make support race at Le Mans, which Aston Martins in the classes of GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4, GTE, N24 and LMP1's were eligible for.

 

[MclarenGT]

Have a parrot

What you mean with actual data like this?

Nah cause it's far too funny watching people that think they know

That one was Aston Martin V8 GTE read about categories in le mans official site,not GT3 class is listed there.

 

[MatskiMonk]

@MclarenGT

This was the entry list for the video Holden posted. http://www.24h-lemans.com/wpphpFich...y-list-le-mans-aston-martin-festival-2015.pdf and the regulations http://www.24h-lemans.com/wpphpFich...ing-LM-festival-supplementary-regulations.pdf

What you mean with actual data like this?

Not quite, whilst hard data would be extraordinarily useful if we had it across all the classes in question, for all the cars - We don't - so I think we need to determine a suitable method by which to judge these things.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

That one was Aston Martin V8 GTE read about categories in le mans official site,not GT3 class is listed there.

erm...... should we do engines 101?

This is a V12 GT3 which you think is a V8 GTE


This is a V8 GTE


This is a V8 GT4


Here is another V12 GT3


Here is a DBR9 V12 GT1


and an LMP1 V12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eFhSBBNQdM


who would like to continue the lession?

 

[Bo]

Just because it is a BoP class, it doesn't make it GT3. GT300 is its own BoP to balance out its own JAF GT, FIAs GT3 and formerly Prototypes and GT2. GT300 is its own thing though it allows GT3 cars to enter.

They have the in-season adjustments, but the initial BoP is the SRO BoP.

Aren't Super GT GT3 cars more aerodynamic than other GT3? I remember that back in the 2013 3 Hours of Fuji the Super GT GT3 cars completely crushed the AsLMS GT3 even they Super GT GT3 ones that used Michelin Tyres.

Could simply be a product of differing in-season BoP on the GT300 side. There is no difference in the GT3 cars mechanically. You buy a car from a manufacturer just like anyone else would in any other country.

Regarding the GT300 Aston, if all the other cars were run as they were from each of their respective series, then the above will be the answer - there are no mechanical differences between a customer car in Japan to any other country. Since the Aston has never really done much in Super GT, if it was left untouched from when it ran, it will have probably had its restrictor opened up a fair bit.

@Bo do you know what the differences between SGT and SuperTaikyu GT3 cars might be, if any?

STX cars are supposedly able to enter GT300 and vice versa, so I believe they use at least some form of the Blancpain BoP - or something very similar to it.

ST1 allows for older GT3 cars, a bit like GT3B did.

 

[Com Fox]

They have the in-season adjustments, but the initial BoP is the SRO BoP.

Could simply be a product of differing in-season BoP on the GT300 side. There is no difference in the GT3 cars mechanically. You buy a car from a manufacturer just like anyone else would in any other country.

Regarding the GT300 Aston, if all the other cars were run as they were from each of their respective series, then the above will be the answer - there are no mechanical differences between a customer car in Japan to any other country. Since the Aston has never really done much in Super GT, if it was left untouched from when it ran, it will have probably had its restrictor opened up a fair bit.

STX cars are supposedly able to enter GT300 and vice versa, so I believe they use at least some form of the Blancpain BoP - or something very similar to it.

ST1 allows for older GT3 cars, a bit like GT3B did.

I doubt it is as simple as buying a GT3 and BoP it and participate in every GT3 Championship Available, especially Super GT where GT3 have to compete with JAF GT.

Yes, you can enter with a GT3 you brought but you need to give your GT3 car more improvements to be competitive against JAF GT which are very Aerodynamic, each GT3 series has their own way of BoPing, it isn't all the same. Just because the Mercedes SLS AMG GT3 is available in multiple series, it doesn't mean it'll be the same in every series.

It's like with the IMSA WTSCC, yes you can participate with an LMP2 you brought but you need to change it up as they have different regulations for LMP2 because they also race with DP.

 

[Bo]

I doubt it is as simple as buying a GT3 and BoP it and participate in every GT3 Championship Available, especially Super GT where GT3 have to compete with JAF GT.

I don't think you understand the JAF's BoP procedure - the entire GT300 class is based around the raw pace of the Blancpain BoP, not the other way round. They were fed into the class, but at the start of 2014, the JAF standardised the balance procedure by applying the Blancpain BoP. The MC and JAF cars are adjusted around those.

Yes, you can enter with a GT3 you brought but you need to give your GT3 car more improvements to be competitive

Care to give any specific examples you're aware of? Of all the series I know if which incorporate GT3, I've never heard of a team being forced to modify a customer car in order to remain competitive. That would be an extremely bizarre length to go to.

Just because the Mercedes SLS AMG GT3 is available in multiple series, it doesn't mean it'll be the same in every series.

I didn't say all BoP procedures are the same, I said the customer cars are the same. They aren't blank canvases that you can start chopping and changing - GT3 means GT3, and all customer teams use the same car that's built to the one set of regulations. They set it up and get it BoP'd for their respective series, but they don't start designing aero kits and the like - the manufacturer would probably can their support for the team if they were seen to be doing so.

It's like with the IMSA WTSCC, yes you can participate with an LMP2 you brought but you need to change it up as they have different regulations for LMP2 because they also race with DP.

That's a specific example of a very minor tweaking system that they can do on the cheap. "Change it up" is a tad hyperbolic.

I still can't see what "it" is, because you're alluding to something that you haven't actually given any evidence of.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I doubt it is as simple as buying a GT3 and BoP it and participate in every GT3 Championship Available, especially Super GT where GT3 have to compete with JAF GT.

Yes, you can enter with a GT3 you brought but you need to give your GT3 car more improvements to be competitive against JAF GT which are very Aerodynamic, each GT3 series has their own way of BoPing, it isn't all the same. Just because the Mercedes SLS AMG GT3 is available in multiple series, it doesn't mean it'll be the same in every series.

It's like with the IMSA WTSCC, yes you can participate with an LMP2 you brought but you need to change it up as they have different regulations for LMP2 because they also race with DP.

You could just post this video which shows a GT3 car that had to be converted to another series's rules a couple of years back

 

[Com Fox]

I don't think you understand the JAF's BoP procedure - the entire GT300 class is based around the raw pace of the Blancpain BoP, not the other way round. They were fed into the class, but at the start of 2014, the JAF standardised the balance procedure by applying the Blancpain BoP. The MC and JAF cars are adjusted around those.

No, I don't buy it. Unless you show me evidence that states otherwise. Super GT GT3 is too much faster than Blancpains GT3 (and if you talk about tyres being they key factor, they were also able to crush AsLMS GT3 field which are similar to Blancpains GT3 except they use Michelin Tyres).

They set it up and get it BoP'd for their respective series, but they don't start designing aero kits and the like - the manufacturer would probably can their support for the team if they were seen to be doing so.

2014 and 2015, GTD would like to say hi.

That's a specific example of a very minor tweaking system that they can do on the cheap. "Change it up" is a tad hyperbolic.

I still can't see what "it" is, because you're alluding to something that you haven't actually given any evidence of

I don't mean massive overhaul changes, I mean like they give a car, more HP or less HP or more KG and less KG based on how the series BoP it and that is what Super GT GT3 do to stay with the JAF GT cars.

http://supergt.net/upload/2_GTfunbook-ENGLISH.pdf