Which is Faster Supra or skyline..??

[Dave A]

It would need a hell of a lot more than 1440bhp to beat the drag needed to go from a drag limited 225mph to a drag limited 240mph, that's what I'm saying. You're just multipling the number of miles per hour difference by 4 and then saying adding that figure to the cars total power. Some people have said it may be possible to get 250mph out of a Skyline with 1600bhp and theortecially it might be possible, but that's with the cars standard bodywork which I'll move onto a bit later. The article below might interest you, the basics of what that's saying is you'll need upwards of 300bhp more than that car already has to break the drag to achieve 240mph. Then you still have the problems with the cars aerosdynamics, the Skyline will in stock form create far too much lift to stay on the ground at that speed, so you'd need to add more downforce to hold it to the road, but that in turn increases drag so with the aerodynamics needed to keep on the road that figure of 350+bhp is raised even higher since the cars frontal area is a key part of the drag equation which is a key part in the power to over come drage equation. Were talking multiplying here, not adding an extra 10 or 20 bhp, you could be talking about an increase in power of upto maybe even over 700bhp, ontop of the 1300bhp that car already has. And that's wheel horsepower, not engine horsepower if you just gave the car an extra 700bhp engine horsepower in a car this powerfull with transmission that could cope, 100 of that could easilly go before it get's to the wheels.
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/topspeed.htm

 

[smuttneyspears]

Edit to above post.

OK. I have nothing to ague with that post yet apart from this.

Downforce does not create extra drag.

It moves the points to which the drag is 'attached' to the car. If this is a point which creates extra drag then you have increased drag but not BECAUSE of downforce.

 

[Dave A]

Yes it does, drag is resistance, putting on a wing that creates more downforce is increasing the resistance which is an increase in drag. Downforce is just drag being utilised to push the car downwards towards the road, whereas drag is a general term. That's why the Skyline GT-R's CD is variable, because the rear wing is variable, when you set it to produce more downforce, it increases the cars CD which is the drag.

 

[smuttneyspears]

It doesn't affect drag. It uses the laws of physics. A force when used will create an equal force in the opposite direction.
So drag which is a pushing force must have a force FOWARDS to create it. NOT UP OR DOWN.


Downforce

If you take DOWN force, which is the force pushed down on the wing, there must be an opposite ('upforce' lets say). This upforce is in the air flow, which is now being moved upwards (and because of it (the air) flowing towards the back of the car in a curve) from the point of down force.


Drag

Yes you might have (ok it does) a VERY slight increase in drag. But this is not from the down force. This is from the wing or bodywork itself. It is creating another force because of it being less flat against the movement of air. The wing (or bodywork) is being pushed backwards because it is having to push air forwards.

Two seperate forces. Two seperate explainations.

 

[Dave A]

Adding a wing to create downforce changes the shape of the car, when the shape of the car changes so does the area of the car that's going to meet resistance. When that changes the drag changes. If the result is a slight increase in drag, your only getting a very slight increase in downforce, for example the difference in CD that the GT-R has with the wing altered for downforce or speed is not a small one it's rather large (either way it has a higher CD than a car like the F1 or Veyron), and you'd need a wing that can produce a lot more drag than that to generate more downforce. For example, you have a wing and it's flat like this __ for arguments sake, on the car it's on, it's producing no downforce and no lift, the wind is flowing over it like it's not there. The you change it so it's angled like this /, all of a sudden the air is hitting it, the area of ressistance has increased, the way the air is hitting it is pushing it down, the air isn't actuially moving down, the air is hitting it and moving up and over the wing, that's how the car's producing downforce. Downforce is a reslut of drag being used in a certain way, to add more downforce requires more drag.

 

[smuttneyspears]

Not saying it is right and not wanting to continue this 'discussion' I will say that I am not going to go into astrophysics ( ) to prove one way or the other.

For the purpose of this thread which went off topic.

Skylines will beat Supras No questions.

Faster off the mark. 0-60mph: Skyline 5.0secs. Supra 5.6secs. 1/4 mile: Skyline 13secs. Supra 13.7secs
Faster round a track. (Nurbergring springs to mind. No dont ask for proof.)
Faster in a Rally
Faster Top Speed (when De-limited)


EDIT:
Just read the article you posted and that is exactly what I was thinking. But I just coulnd't remember it.
'power is related to mph cubed (to the POWER of four' 'To double the speed you have to times the power by eight.'

I was only half out.
But here's a very nice arcticle as to why there will always be arguements in the SKYLINE/ SUPRA corners.
http://press.jbskyline.net/R33/R33Supra/

 

[Jay]

Skylines will beat Supras No questions.

Ok we get the point.

 

[Dark Elite]

I'm in agreement with Post #56.

It seems that we are quite wrong in what we are thinking. The Skyline does have a fairly low drag Coefficient. A figure of just 0.32 (not the official one, which I can't find
).

The DC (or CD if you really want) isn't that high, but the weight is fairly high and the two combine to make the Skyline a less-than-perfect top speed car. However, rather than going into a lengthy discussion about the capabilities of various GT-Rs, I think we have answered the thread's question.

I'm waiting for someone from Team Toyota to show up...

But as Post #66 outlines, there really isn't a situation where a Supra will beat a Skyline.

DE

 

[un_peacekeeper]

live4speed, I want to point out something.
smuttneyspears here is saying downforce doesn't create drag. He doesn't mean the wing doesn't create drag. One thing to point out though is that a wing that doesn't create downforce is impossible. However, a low drag wing can be made to create decent amounts of downforce. This usually comes from laboratory experiments, wind tunnels, and computer animations. After spending millions of dollars and several years of development, then you will probably get one.

But the actual force of downforce does not create drag except the tires pushing harder on the ground and that will be the tires giving the drag. The two forces are independent of each other.

 

[Vision GT]

This really depends on the driver and the Circuit. The Supra is faster at long run, it will accelerate A LOT faster than the Skyline. The Supra is faster on some turns but the Skyline is faster out of the turns and tight turns.

 

[Leonidae]

only with proper tyres. and, naturally it'll accelerate faster as soon as it'll get grip, after all, only one skyline can reach similar power when compared to Supra, and it's the GT pacecar that reaches 900bhp.

 

[Famine]

No. Because you need only four times the horsepower than the speed increase you want. So for 250mph you will need 35mph so in essence you only need 140BHP to break it.

Just on this point...

Power required to increase speed = Speed increase x Speed increase x Speed increase.

It's not four times, it's CUBED. To double the speed you need 8 times the power. To treble it you'll need 27 times more power. To quadruple it you'll need 64 times more power. And so on.

Say you can go 215mph with 1000hp. 250mph is 35mph more, or a 16% increase (multiply by 1.163). To reach 250mph you need, therefore, 1.163 x 1.163 x 1.163 more power. 1.163 x 1.163 x 1.163 = 1.573. This means you need 57% more power than you originally had.

So 215mph from 1000hp becomes 250mph with 1,573hp.


As a further point, weight is irrelevant. It has such a small effect on top speed (by way of friction) that it is exceeded by air resistance at around 25mph. A Skyline at 1mph has exactly the same "rolling resistance" (the effect of the weight) as one at 200mph, assuming that no extra downward force is applied. It's about 46lb/20kg, for reference.

 

[Dark Elite]

a wing that doesn't create downforce is impossible. However, a low drag wing can be made to create decent amounts of downforce.

This is true.

Leo, that this seems to be going outside GT4 now... And there's almost every RB26DETT out there could go into four figure horsepower. GT4 is unrealistic in this sense.

That changes a few things, Famine, and it seems to make sense... At least, I think it does...

So, if we want to toe the line with physics all the way, then we should find the recorded top speed for a thousand-brake horse GT-R and work from that, right?

DE

 

[un_peacekeeper]

Well...here's one

346.2 KM/H
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VQoQhDXeT_I

 

[HKS_T51KAI]

if i recall, best motoring have in fact done a comparion between both 97 model.
Supra and skyline. Supra managed a higher speed due to lower drag, but skyline still wins overall.
1/4mile:
Skyline R33 GTR 97 - 13.5
Supra RZ 97 - 14.03
Speed:
Skyline 2658km/h
Supra 268km/h
This was like back in 1998.
And the Veilside GTR isnt the fastest GTR, the HKS Drag GTR is the fastest GTR, running a 7sec 1/4mile but the fastest street GTR in the world.

 

[Dark Elite]

Intereresting stats, HKS_T51KAI... The top speeds are so close it hardly makes a difference, the type of oil used in the cars could probably make that much difference! The HKS Drag R33 is a unique car, and should probably be discounted from road car debate as it clearly isn't intende for road use. But VeilSide's GT-R34 holds several dyno records

DE

 

[Dave A]

When I used towork in town there was a jet black R34 GT-R parked round the corner from the office I was in, it had no NISMO badging, but it did have a radiator with NISMO marked on it in the metal, probably bought as an option from NISMO. Very cool car, never saw who owned it, it was there when I arrived at work, there on lunch and gone by the time I'd leave.

 

[Dark Elite]

Nice... The badging there could be a sign of a Nismo intercooler or similar aftermarket addition

Shame you never met the owner...

DE

 

[Jay]

Yeah the Nismo would have been printed/painted on the Intercooler (or maybe oil cooler or similar), the Skyline radiator is too hidden behind crossmember, air con condenser and electric fans.

 

[Dark Elite]

True, but the owner would've wanted it to be plain that a Nismo part had been fitted

DE

 

[un_peacekeeper]

Not really, DE. Not everyone is arrogant and want to show off everything.

 

[Master_Yoda]

True, but the owner would've wanted it to be plain that a Nismo part had been fitted

DE

Who wouldn't? If i had a NISMO tuned R34 i would have signs around the world saying

 

[Dark Elite]

I agree with that, Master_Yoda

(What are you trying to say, peacekeeper?? )

DE

 

[Jay]

If I got a genuine Nismo front mount IC and it had Nismo printing on it, I would leave it, otherwise Im happy to paint my front mount black, I dont care for people to know.

I see people with cheap hybrid front mount IC's with big HYBRID printed on them.

 

[whatupdet]

I don't find the Supra's so bad, or at least the expensive one's (Tom's and what not) I took both Tom's Supra and Nissan Calsonic Skyline to Nurburgring and got a better time with the Supra over the Skyline, but maybe that's because the Supra was going an extra 20MPH on the long straight versus the Skyline. All and all they seemed pretty similar to me.

 

[Master_Yoda]

I don't find the Supra's so bad, or at least the expensive one's (Tom's and what not) I took both Tom's Supra and Nissan Calsonic Skyline to Nurburgring and got a better time with the Supra over the Skyline, but maybe that's because the Supra was going an extra 20MPH on the long straight versus the Skyline. All and all they seemed pretty similar to me.

Your comparing the JGTC cars, were comparing the Road Cars. But nice comparision

 

[Dark Elite]

Yeah, an interesting comparo whatupdet. It highlights the Supra's advantage over the Skyline. If you take the T10 time of each car, what's the difference then? (That's just before the back straight)

DE

 

[whatupdet]

Your comparing the JGTC cars, were comparing the Road Cars. But nice comparision

I thought so but wasn't completely sure, in that case I do find regular Skylines handle better than Supras though I haven't drove much of either yet in GT4 since I'm just trying to beat the game and then go back and have fun with all of my cars.

Yeah, an interesting comparo whatupdet. It highlights the Supra's advantage over the Skyline. If you take the T10 time of each car, what's the difference then? (That's just before the back straight)

I'm running the 8 hour Motegi Endurance Race now but when I'm done I'll try all the JGTC Skyline's and Supra's and post respective times for each car.

 

[HKS_T51KAI]

Its fairly clear that Supra would out handle skyline, in certain tracks such as Tsukuba, but remember that both cars would have to be 1997. This way there wont be as much hassle, as its very evident that the R34 would out do a 97 supra.
I've tested both 97 model cars on Tsukuba, with oil and tyre change to Road.
Both have pros and cons, so its really to the person who judge the car, yeah you.
Personally i'm a GTR man in heart, but never really been in a Supra RZ, i cant say if supra is really better.


I remember in GT2, they had the Famous TRD3000 supra, loved it to death.

 

[DJ_Miracle]

If you compare a R34 with a Supra (both the same whp etc.) the skyline should be faster and much more handier. The GT-R is normaly RWD driven, and puts max. 50% to the front axle, so it is simple to oversteer at cornering, but much more safer than with a Supra ;-) Godzilla rulez