White Privilege

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It's not a dumb argument. It's part and parcel of debate. You made a claim, it's on you to provide the proof. Its neither my job to do your research nor is it my job to pay for it. Since you want to keep referring to it, it's on you to provide it.

True but its also on the other people who keep commenting on it without watching it. I will stop referencing it if they stop commenting about it. that is why I think the idea is dumb. If someone didnt see the art of the deal or stranger things then they wont comment on it.

I posted a link to the mini-doc and without watching people started posting their opinion. So who is at fault here? If the discussion already was about the Racial wealth gap, I might understand your point in me to provide proof to debate my point in a subject. But in this instance I posted first about the a mini-doc and added my opinion after watching it. However people kept commenting without watching it. So I suggested watching it before commenting about the mini-doc and then I became the bad guy for hiding it behind a paywall? Doesnt seem logical to me.

How about this for a rule of thumb? If you have a point to make link directly to the source and don't have that source behind a paywall. This is an open forum with members from around the world. Trying to make your case with information that's behind a a wall likely going to exclude a massive number of people from the discussion.

How difficult is it to understand that if you dont have netflix just say so and I will stop referencing it. I assumed since 50-60% of americans have netflix most of them have netflix. If you dont have it, I am not forcing this discussion on you. But why do so many people comment about something they wont or cant watch. Thats why I think the comment about a paywal was dumb. I shared a mini-doc about another subject (racial wealth gap). If you had no interest in watching or dont want to pay for netflix then why comment on it? If I stated that the birth of a nation is a racist piece of cinema, would you still be criticizing for referencing content behind a paywall?
 
True but its also on the other people who keep commenting on it without watching it. I will stop referencing it if they stop commenting about it. that is why I think the idea is dumb. If someone didnt see the art of the deal or stranger things then they wont comment on it.

I posted a link to the mini-doc and without watching people started posting their opinion. So who is at fault here? If the discussion already was about the Racial wealth gap, I might understand your point in me to provide proof to debate my point in a subject. But in this instance I posted first about the a mini-doc and added my opinion after watching it. However people kept commenting without watching it. So I suggested watching it before commenting about the mini-doc and then I became the bad guy for hiding it behind a paywall? Doesnt seem logical to me.



How difficult is it to understand that if you dont have netflix just say so and I will stop referencing it. I assumed since 50-60% of americans have netflix most of them have netflix. If you dont have it, I am not forcing this discussion on you. But why do so many people comment about something they wont or cant watch. Thats why I think the comment about a paywal was dumb. I shared a mini-doc about another subject (racial wealth gap). If you had no interest in watching or dont want to pay for netflix then why comment on it? If I stated that the birth of a nation is a racist piece of cinema, would you still be criticizing for referencing content behind a paywall?
You make too many assumptions. Your posts are literally dripping with them. I'm not sure why you would think that you'd be taken seriously in an open discussion when you support your positions with information behind a pay wall but by all means, feel free to do so.
 
An average of 25k inheritance for the middle class is quite substantial.

Perhaps if it's only going to one person, but if it's split evenly between 6 people it's only 4K which granted is certainly more than nothing, but at the same time not what I would consider to be substantial.

My guess is that inheritances is in the black community is substantially lower.

If you want to have a serious debate, stop the "guessing".
 
You are missing my point it is only 153 years ago.
You're missing my point when you continue to dismiss a half dozen different generation of people removed from living under slavery or holding slaves as "only".

And almost 100% of african americans in the usa are descendants from slaves.
That would be something I acknowledged when I said "we can be extremely broad strokes and say that nearly everyone living in America who is black probably has slavery in their ancestry at some point," yes. I see that you've gone on a ridiculous tangent about how Netflix somehow isn't a paywall, so I'll ask again:


Someone black has a mixed race child. Other parent is Asian, Hispanic, white American, fresh off the boat European immigrant, Native American, black person from Canada, whatever. Are their children descended from slaves for the purposes of your argument even though half of their immediate parents lineage has nothing to do with American slavery? How about their children, or generations further down the line from that?
Someone who was a slave owner moves to the North in 1865 and one of their children end up marrying someone who showed up from Ireland in the 1870s and have kids. 5 more generations of families later (each of which presumably combining two different families together) are those children in 2018 who are 1/62nd descended from someone who owned slaves in 1865 and 61/62nds descended from people who had nothing to do with slavery and may not have even lived in America before the Civil War still similarly descended from slave owners for your argument?



If the answer to either of those questions is yes even though family trees can become that blurry within a century in a half, how is it any different from tracing your history back to any other period of slavery in history?
 
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True but its also on the other people who keep commenting on it without watching it. I will stop referencing it if they stop commenting about it. that is why I think the idea is dumb. If someone didnt see the art of the deal or stranger things then they wont comment on it.

I posted a link to the mini-doc and without watching people started posting their opinion. So who is at fault here? If the discussion already was about the Racial wealth gap, I might understand your point in me to provide proof to debate my point in a subject. But in this instance I posted first about the a mini-doc and added my opinion after watching it. However people kept commenting without watching it. So I suggested watching it before commenting about the mini-doc and then I became the bad guy for hiding it behind a paywall? Doesnt seem logical to me.

How difficult is it to understand that if you dont have netflix just say so and I will stop referencing it. I assumed since 50-60% of americans have netflix most of them have netflix. If you dont have it, I am not forcing this discussion on you. But why do so many people comment about something they wont or cant watch. Thats why I think the comment about a paywal was dumb. I shared a mini-doc about another subject (racial wealth gap). If you had no interest in watching or dont want to pay for netflix then why comment on it? If I stated that the birth of a nation is a racist piece of cinema, would you still be criticizing for referencing content behind a paywall?
Mate, the entire last page and a half wasn't sparked by you telling us to watch the documentary alone. It was sparked by this opinion of yours that you gathered from the documentary.
Did you watch the netflix episode? It is more of an explanation of how the wealth gap came to be. If the former slave community deserve reparation is an interesting convorsation. I personally see the legitimacy in it as backwages for services provided.
If that's what the documentary is alluding to, then of course no one here is going to pay to watch it because they already take issue with the idea of paying people for the work of their forefathers with no ancestral link. It's why you were asked to explain the documentary further about what it said that led you to that statement.
 
Someone who was a slave owner moves to the North in 1865 and their children end up marrying someone who showed up from Ireland in the 1870s and have kids. 6 more generations of families later, are those children in 2018 who are 1/20th descended from someone who owned slaves and 19/20ths descended from people who had nothing to do with slavery and may not have even lived in America before the Civil War still considered to have slave owners in their lineage?

That's easy... yes. The question is how much we hold them responsible for the sins of their forebears, that's where the sensible distinction is to be made.
 
Ignorance isalso if you make quick assumptions.

Nope. That's just making assumptions based on limited information. That's why we have different words for ignorance and assumption.

I did not advocate that decendants should pay for reparations. Before jumping the gun you could have asked who should pay and why should descendants pay or receive it. I agree I write poorly, but that is because english is my second/third language.

What you wrote could have been reasonably interpreted as advocacy. I understand that English is not your first language, but if I have to assume that everything you write is not actually what you mean then we're never going to get anywhere. I will continue to assume that what you write is what you mean, and if it's clear that it's incorrect then you can correct yourself.

Because it was acknowledged as a joke:

You probably shouldn't take my interpretation of someone else's post as evidence, as you've already accused me several times of being ignorant in my readings of the meanings of your posts.

This page on wikipedia is quite detailed it has nearly every individiual racial group, I found it quite odd that Australian Americans are the 3rd wealthiest lol.

I suspect that's strongly influenced by a small number of very wealthy individuals *cough*RupertMurdoch*cough*.

So in your logic I cant reference any literature, movies, books, TV shows that arent free?

Generally with those things we post snippets or quotes of the relevant information so that people can discuss it. Simply saying "it's out there, go pay for it" is unacceptable in an open conversation. It excludes people.

Which is kind of ironic in a White Privilege thread. Recognise your Netflix privilege.

True but its also on the other people who keep commenting on it without watching it.

I don't need to watch a video to comment on your opinions. I didn't comment on the video, I commented on your opinion of reparations. Yet you still hide behind the necessity to watch this piece of media that's behind a paywall instead of simply openly defending your ideas.

I posted a link to the mini-doc and without watching people started posting their opinion. So who is at fault here? If the discussion already was about the Racial wealth gap, I might understand your point in me to provide proof to debate my point in a subject. But in this instance I posted first about the a mini-doc and added my opinion after watching it. However people kept commenting without watching it. So I suggested watching it before commenting about the mini-doc and then I became the bad guy for hiding it behind a paywall? Doesnt seem logical to me.

I think you're mistaking comments about your opinion for comments about the documentary. One can quite rationally comment on your opinion without needing to watch the documentary. If your opinion required supporting information, then you could probably have provided it in less words than you've spent complaining about people not paying for Netflix.

I assumed since 50-60% of americans have netflix most of them have netflix.

I know this is the internet and all, but you're not American so why would you assume that everyone else on here is?

But why do so many people comment about something they wont or cant watch.

They're not. They're commenting on you and your opinion. The moment you took the content of the documentary and owned it as your opinion, it became fair game to comment on that opinion alone.
 
Mate, the entire last page and a half wasn't sparked by you telling us to watch the documentary alone. It was sparked by this opinion of yours that you gathered from the documentary.

If that's what the documentary is alluding to, then of course no one here is going to pay to watch it because they already take issue with the idea of paying people for the work of their forefathers with no ancestral link. It's why you were asked to explain the documentary further about what it said that led you to that statement.

I guess you missed the first post where I pointed out what my opinion was about the documentary. To clear up the confusion:

1. I as a european was ignorant about the racial wealth gap having an origin in the history of slavery. I learned there are actually proposals for reparations discussed in the USA


2. After learning about it I concluded that there is legitimacy in the claim. Like there is legitimacy of the opposite, that it isnt feasible in the current time for reparation. People interperted that as me advocating that slaveowners should pay the reparations. I did not do that, that were assumptions made by others in this thread.

3. I did not post, advocated or even made a notion that descendants of slaveowners are responsible for reparation. Those notions were posted by others.

4. I ignorantly wrote 3-4 generation, but I meant that in 240 years of the usa hypothetically 3-4 people (living up to 60-80 years) could have lived in between 2018 and 1776. I apologised for the wrong statement. I incorrectly thought a generation is an average lifetime of approx 60 years. The ultimate point (if you ignore the incorrect use of generation) is that the USA is not that old and it should be impossible to trace back lineage up to 10 generations (approx 25 years) back, compared to lineage that traces back hundreds of generations.

5. I posted a reference to a documentary, like if someone would post a reference to a movie or a book. The argument that I am not allowed to retort to people who chose to comment about the documentary, because they havent seen it, because you have to pay for it, I still can not understand. You can have your opinion of course, but the logic still illudes me. If you have no acces to it, because perhaps regional or monetary reasons, then you can choose not te react to the post. I never read any Harry Potter book, so you find me posting about it.

6. Some people compared vietnamese and japanese communities with the black community having had hardship that in his eyes shoudl be an equal comparinson. That is highly inaccurate, because a community suffering during the vietnam war or ww2 can not be compared to more then 200 years of slavery. Also references were made how asian americans have higher average income then white americans. But according to research in 2008, Asian American households had the highest median income in the US, at $65,637; however, 11.8 percent of Asians were in poverty in 2004, a higher than the 8.6 percent rate for non-Hispanic whites.

To summarize, I wanted to talk about the acknowledgement of the racial wealth gap. My opinion that it is caused by racism throughout history. And for the X-th time I repeat again to all readers in the thread, I did not advocate that reparations should be made by descendants. Those assumptions were made by others. The whole idea of reparation came from the documentary that references a bill to give land to former slaves, that never came to fruitition (40 acres and a mule).

A short summary of the doc:

The racial wealth gap has been a discussion since the abolishment of slavery. The documentary establishes that historically the best way to accumilate wealth is to have land. In the aftermath of the abolishment of slavery there were concrete plans to reparations to the slavecommunity. At the time there was a bill that asigned land to former slaves, but after Lincolns assassination it was reversed. Most slaves who did already had claimed land were evicted. And this is established as one of the primary reasons for the racial wealth gap that exists today.

Homeownership is one of the important things that define wealth in the middle class. And it has been incredibly difficult for black people buy property of value because they have hostorically been in white areas. Owning a home in a good neigbourhood build wealth immensely and also has increased the racial wealth gap even more significantly. Most recently during the economic crisis of 2008 the black community lost 53% of their wealth, compared to 16% of the white community.

The eventual point is made that the black community only had real rights since 1968 and therefor had over 300 years to play catch up, where the white community had a head start.

Apologies for my english. This is only a summary of the first half of the mini-doc.
 
To summarize, I wanted to talk about the acknowledgement of the racial wealth gap. My opinion that it is caused by racism throughout history.

I think most recently it is caused by the racism of assumed victimhood for certain races. If you tell someone they are a victim of circumstance, that the system is rigged against them (regardless of whether it is true), what will their response be? To try harder? I doubt it. We've been telling certain groups of people they are victims of circumstance for a very long time, and I don't think it's a surprise that it has an effect.
 
I think most recently it is caused by the racism of assumed victimhood for certain races. If you tell someone they are a victim of circumstance, that the system is rigged against them (regardless of whether it is true), what will their response be? To try harder? I doubt it. We've been telling certain groups of people they are victims of circumstance for a very long time, and I don't think it's a surprise that it has an effect.

I would agree in a sense for modern times, but before 1968 Blacks could not even vote. So the system was literally rigged before. Not meaning that the system was neccessarily against them, but ceratinly not for them.
 
I would agree in a sense for modern times, but before 1968 Blacks could not even vote. So the system was literally rigged before. Not meaning that the system was neccessarily against them, but ceratinly not for them.

1968? Where do you get that?

Yes, there was a time when the system was clearly and inescapably rigged against certain groups.
 
1968? Where do you get that?

Yes, there was a time when the system was clearly and inescapably rigged against certain groups.

Sorry I meant 1965. So only having 60 years to close that gap is almost impossible. Even worse, the gap has even grown much larger.


Mate, the entire last page and a half wasn't sparked by you telling us to watch the documentary alone. It was sparked by this opinion of yours that you gathered from the documentary.

If that's what the documentary is alluding to, then of course no one here is going to pay to watch it because they already take issue with the idea of paying people for the work of their forefathers with no ancestral link. It's why you were asked to explain the documentary further about what it said that led you to that statement.

I clarified said opinion in my post above. I was not claiming that descendants need to be paying reparations. Where in the heck did you guys get that assumptions from?
 
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I guess you missed the first post where I pointed out what my opinion was about the documentary. To clear up the confusion:

1. I as a european was ignorant about the racial wealth gap having an origin in the history of slavery. I learned there are actually proposals for reparations discussed in the USA


2. After learning about it I concluded that there is legitimacy in the claim. Like there is legitimacy of the opposite, that it isnt feasible in the current time for reparation. People interperted that as me advocating that slaveowners should pay the reparations. I did not do that, that were assumptions made by others in this thread.

3. I did not post, advocated or even made a notion that descendants of slaveowners are responsible for reparation. Those notions were posted by others.

4. I ignorantly wrote 3-4 generation, but I meant that in 240 years of the usa hypothetically 3-4 people (living up to 60-80 years) could have lived in between 2018 and 1776. I apologised for the wrong statement. I incorrectly thought a generation is an average lifetime of approx 60 years. The ultimate point (if you ignore the incorrect use of generation) is that the USA is not that old and it should be impossible to trace back lineage up to 10 generations (approx 25 years) back, compared to lineage that traces back hundreds of generations.

5. I posted a reference to a documentary, like if someone would post a reference to a movie or a book. The argument that I am not allowed to retort to people who chose to comment about the documentary, because they havent seen it, because you have to pay for it, I still can not understand. You can have your opinion of course, but the logic still illudes me. If you have no acces to it, because perhaps regional or monetary reasons, then you can choose not te react to the post. I never read any Harry Potter book, so you find me posting about it.

6. Some people compared vietnamese and japanese communities with the black community having had hardship that in his eyes shoudl be an equal comparinson. That is highly inaccurate, because a community suffering during the vietnam war or ww2 can not be compared to more then 200 years of slavery. Also references were made how asian americans have higher average income then white americans. But according to research in 2008, Asian American households had the highest median income in the US, at $65,637; however, 11.8 percent of Asians were in poverty in 2004, a higher than the 8.6 percent rate for non-Hispanic whites.

To summarize, I wanted to talk about the acknowledgement of the racial wealth gap. My opinion that it is caused by racism throughout history. And for the X-th time I repeat again to all readers in the thread, I did not advocate that reparations should be made by descendants. Those assumptions were made by others. The whole idea of reparation came from the documentary that references a bill to give land to former slaves, that never came to fruitition (40 acres and a mule).

A short summary of the doc:

The racial wealth gap has been a discussion since the abolishment of slavery. The documentary establishes that historically the best way to accumilate wealth is to have land. In the aftermath of the abolishment of slavery there were concrete plans to reparations to the slavecommunity. At the time there was a bill that asigned land to former slaves, but after Lincolns assassination it was reversed. Most slaves who did already had claimed land were evicted. And this is established as one of the primary reasons for the racial wealth gap that exists today.

Homeownership is one of the important things that define wealth in the middle class. And it has been incredibly difficult for black people buy property of value because they have hostorically been in white areas. Owning a home in a good neigbourhood build wealth immensely and also has increased the racial wealth gap even more significantly. Most recently during the economic crisis of 2008 the black community lost 53% of their wealth, compared to 16% of the white community.

The eventual point is made that the black community only had real rights since 1968 and therefor had over 300 years to play catch up, where the white community had a head start.

Apologies for my english. This is only a summary of the first half of the mini-doc.
Your claim that I equated the Japanese and Vietnamese experience with the slavery of blacks is false. You even questioned me when I first brought it up and I explained it further.
 
I would agree in a sense for modern times, but before 1968 Blacks could not even vote. So the system was literally rigged before. Not meaning that the system was neccessarily against them, but ceratinly not for them.

Voting rights act of 1965

The voting rights act of 1965 didn't give anyone the right to vote. They could vote before that. The voting rights act of 1965 addressed practices that were deemed racist (such as literacy tests and poll taxes).
 
The voting rights act of 1965 didn't give anyone the right to vote. They could vote before that. The voting rights act of 1965 addressed practices that were deemed racist (such as literacy tests and poll taxes).

I corrected with a link to the correct facts:
http://checkyourfact.com/2018/06/06/fact-check-right-to-vote/

Didn't Americans throw the Japanese Americans into internment camps and try to bomb their home country out of existence in WW2? How are they faring? What about the Vietnamese, many of who were at war with the U.S. in the last 50 years?

These are examples of people who, in my father's lifetime and my lifetime, were subject to incredible hardship and racism and yet overcame it very quickly through hard work and a focus on family and education. If you want to get into an Olympics of Oppression then no comparison will ever measure up, but I wasn't talking about reparations, rather the fact that those groups, and others who have been the subject of oppression, racism and war, have been able to overcome their hardships and be successful in America and other places.

@Johnnypenso If you didnt I might have jumped to conclusion, but it did seem like you directly compared the racial wealth and the suffering of japanese and vietnamese during war with the history of black americans. Their history in the USA are incomparable. Black americans have faced far more oppression then any other race in the USA.
 
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You said before 1965 black people could not even vote... what you meant was before 1965 it was harder for black people to vote than it is now. It's not the same thing - leads to confusion.

I had the wrong facts. I actually thought black people could not vote untill 1965. Thanks for the correction. I am a little bit less ignorant about the subject then before.
 
@Johnnypenso If you didnt I might have jumped to conclusion, but it did seem like you directly compared the racial wealth and the suffering of japanese and vietnamese during war with the history of black americans. Their history in the USA are incomparable. Black americans have faced far more oppression then any other race in the USA.
I didn't directly compare them, I offered them up as a group that has also suffered racism in recent history. That doesn't mean they are equal which is the train track you seem to be going down. Japanese who had lived in the United States for several generations were thrown into camps for the duration of the war. I doubt they were warmly received in their communities when they were released. This happened within my fathers lifetime, not in my great, great, great Grandfather's time as slavery was. I daresay they were probably treated worse than blacks in many cases because people who looked like them attacked the United States and killed 160,000 men and injured a couple hundred thousand more. The war in Vietnam killed 50,000 Americans so I doubt the Vietnamese refugees and others were warmly received either. This happened in my lifetime.

So while the Japanese weren't slaves in the past 75 years, neither were black Americans. I think the comparison of a Japanese person starting out in the 1940's and 1950's or a Vietnamese person starting out in the 1970's and 1980's would be comparable to black Americans that are alive today. Not equivalent, but certainly comparable.
 
I think the comparison of a Japanese person starting out in the 1940's and 1950's or a Vietnamese person starting out in the 1970's and 1980's would be comparable to black Americans that are alive today. Not equivalent, but certainly comparable.

I think that's awfully generous. If I had to pick being a black person in the US today vs. being a Japanese American person in the 40s from the perspective of discrimination, I'd pick Black today, hands down. No question. We were 100% for sure being tougher on Japanese Americans in 40s than we are on... well probably anybody today. Closest might be a Muslim wearing religious garb.
 
I think that's awfully generous. If I had to pick being a black person in the US today vs. being a Japanese American person in the 40s from the perspective of discrimination, I'd pick Black today, hands down. No question. We were 100% for sure being tougher on Japanese Americans in 40s than we are on... well probably anybody today. Closest might be a Muslim wearing religious garb.
I misworded that, sorry. I meant that a black person alive today but starting out in the 40's and 50's or 60's and 70's could be comparable to a Japanese person and a Vietnamese person starting out in the respective era in which their discrimination was highest.
 
I didn't directly compare them, I offered them up as a group that has also suffered racism in recent history. That doesn't mean they are equal which is the train track you seem to be going down. Japanese who had lived in the United States for several generations were thrown into camps for the duration of the war. I doubt they were warmly received in their communities when they were released. This happened within my fathers lifetime, not in my great, great, great Grandfather's time as slavery was. I daresay they were probably treated worse than blacks in many cases because people who looked like them attacked the United States and killed 160,000 men and injured a couple hundred thousand more. The war in Vietnam killed 50,000 Americans so I doubt the Vietnamese refugees and others were warmly received either. This happened in my lifetime.

So while the Japanese weren't slaves in the past 75 years, neither were black Americans. I think the comparison of a Japanese person starting out in the 1940's and 1950's or a Vietnamese person starting out in the 1970's and 1980's would be comparable to black Americans that are alive today. Not equivalent, but certainly comparable.

To be fair, you did posted it to seem like you compared both suffering. Racism for every ethnicity is different. The stereotypes for each ethnicity are vastly different. Although similar I would still not compare them. for example an asian will not be associated with a thief, murderer or rapist as much as a mexican or black person.
 
To be fair, you did posted it to seem like you compared both suffering. Racism for every ethnicity is different. The stereotypes for each ethnicity are vastly different. Although similar I would still not compare them. for example an asian will not be associated with a thief, murderer or rapist as much as a mexican or black person.

I'm pretty sure that white men take the murderer psychopath cake when it comes to stereotypes.
 
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