White Privilege

[Tina Branford]

You can say "black people", you know

Indeed the research was carried out in America, a sure sign that your adamance that such privilege is a 'non issue' there is strongly misplaced.

I'd like to know who does this privilege research or wage gap research. I can only believe any idea presented to me if it's able to consistently be backed up using entirely non biased sources from a confirmed politically moderate source.

I shall stand by that I never had privilege as a white male nor has my friends I asked this of.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Britain has had two women prime ministers so that must have put paid to our gender pay gap, right? I don't think it matters who's in government. Wage gaps still exist in the advanced first world nation I live in and you don't have to be far left to think so.

I think the point is so what? The broad brush approach of taking average pay for men and women is completely meaningless when trying to determine the effect discrimination has on pay differences between men and women. There are lots of factors that have nothing to do with discrimination that need to be accounted for first as @TenEightyOne’s link earlier detailed. It really bothers me that the overall averages are used as if inequality of outcome is always down to discrimination or even a bad thing.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'd like to know who does this privilege research or wage gap research. I can only believe any idea presented to me if it's able to consistently be backed up using entirely non biased sources from a confirmed politically moderate source.

Factual findings are factual findings - science is apolitical. You need to be more confident in extracting fact from opinion. Even Breitbart holds some actual-real-information.

Try this paper, Kendall is definitely moderate, see what you think.

I shall stand by that I never had privilege as a white male nor has my friends I asked this of.

Umm, you keep putting "male" in there like it means something. Gender (interchangeable with 'sex', if you're using American definitions) has nothing to do with 'white privilege'.

The other issue with this statement is that 'unknowing' is a good way of describing the way the privilege is conferred, often it's by omission rather than action.

It really bothers me that the overall averages are used as if inequality of outcome is always down to discrimination or even a bad thing.

You shouldn't miss the nuance though - some is 'natural' but some is very much down to discrimination. I find it obvious that there are parts of that we could (and should) be happy to do something about.

 

[SestoScudo]

Persians and other central Asians tend not to "look" white so they can't receive white privilege, and since most of them are Muslim that becomes their new racial classification because logic. Generally speaking "white" people can be defined as anyone with genetic origins from pretty much all of Europe sans Turkey. But again, most people don't think that hard about whether that is actually the case or if you simply look like someone that does.

Muslim does not classify a race. Any ethnic group or race can be a Muslim.

You not only have Arabs, but you have Turks, Pakistanis, Berbers, Indonesians, Malaysians, Kazakhs, Afghanis, Bosniaks, Albanians even Western Europeans.

There are more Muslims in Indonesia, Pakistan and India than the Arab World.

 

[UKMikey]

I think the point is so what? The broad brush approach of taking average pay for men and women is completely meaningless when trying to determine the effect discrimination has on pay differences between men and women. There are lots of factors that have nothing to do with discrimination that need to be accounted for first as @TenEightyOne’s link earlier detailed. It really bothers me that the overall averages are used as if inequality of outcome is always down to discrimination or even a bad thing.

I think the point is that the race or sex of a country's leading politician has very little to do with whether there's still inequality of outcome in that country. I'm just tired of hearing that racism ceased to exist the moment America elected a black president.

 

[Mr Tree]

I think the point is that the race or sex of a country's leading politician has very little to do with whether there's still inequality of outcome in that country. I'm just tired of hearing that racism ceased to exist the moment America elected a black president.

Is that what you'd aim for? Equality of outcome?

I wouldn't personally. I much prefer equality of oppertunity. And I agree that that still doesn't exist

 

[UKMikey]

Is that what you'd aim for? Equality of outcome?

I wouldn't personally. I much prefer equality of oppertunity. And I agree that that still doesn't exist

No. But by reducing inequality of opportunity you would at least hope to reduce inequality of outcome and the only way you can find out whether this has worked is by measuring inequality of outcome.

 

[PeterJB]

Muslim does not classify a race. Any ethnic group or race can be a Muslim.

You not only have Arabs, but you have Turks, Pakistanis, Berbers, Indonesians, Malaysians, Kazakhs, Afghanis, Bosniaks, Albanians even Western Europeans.

There are more Muslims in Indonesia, Pakistan and India than the Arab World.

I know, which is why I was making a jab at the idea that you can be racist by criticising Islam/Muslims.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Muslim does not classify a race. Any ethnic group or race can be a Muslim.

You not only have Arabs, but you have Turks, Pakistanis, Berbers, Indonesians, Malaysians, Kazakhs, Afghanis, Bosniaks, Albanians even Western Europeans.

There are more Muslims in Indonesia, Pakistan and India than the Arab World.

Precisely. That's why the modern, widely understood definition of 'racism' means that Islamophobia can be a racist act given that race for the purpose of law can mean belonging (or perception of belonging) to a group of 'race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins'. CPS.

I know, which is why I was making a jab at the idea that you can be racist by criticising Islam/Muslims.

You can criticise Islam/Muslims in a racist way or without being racist. However, the "it can't be racist because Muslims aren't a race" is a counterpoint that was put to bed a loooong time ago.

 

[PeterJB]

You can criticise Islam/Muslims in a racist way or without being racist. However, the "it can't be racist because Muslims aren't a race" is a counterpoint that was put to bed a loooong time ago.

If you're criticising Muslims in a racist way then it's not because of Islam, it's because of their race.

 

[Biggles]

I think the point is that for a lot of people with racist attitudes the distinction between race, ethnicity, religion & any other designation is of little concern. That's how the term "other" came into being. Anyone who is identified as not being from your tribe, however you choose to define that, belongs to the "other".

 

[SestoScudo]

Worst thing people can do is mix religion with their race or ethnic group.

 

[Exorcet]

No. But by reducing inequality of opportunity you would at least hope to reduce inequality of outcome and the only way you can find out whether this has worked is by measuring inequality of outcome.

I think this is reasonable for the most part, although different people may have different goals which makes it harder to even define what an equal outcome is. Equality might not entail splitting everything exactly evenly.

 

[UKMikey]

I think this is reasonable for the most part, although different people may have different goals which makes it harder to even define what an equal outcome is. Equality might not entail splitting everything exactly evenly.

True, but were I doing the measuring I'd be looking for beneficial changes in the right direction rather than for everything to simply even out in the end.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If you're criticising Muslims in a racist way then it's not because of Islam, it's because of their race.

The difficulty with that is that there's no such thing as "race", unless you could explain otherwise?

 

[PeterJB]

The difficulty with that is that there's no such thing as "race", unless you could explain otherwise?

Then how does racism exist if race doesn't?

 

[ryzno]

No. But by reducing inequality of opportunity you would at least hope to reduce inequality of outcome and the only way you can find out whether this has worked is by measuring inequality of outcome.

Is there really inequality in opportunity?
We have 25 drivers. 2 are women. They make the exact same pay as us men.
I've watched probably 10 women come in for driver training, which is a week.
A few days later I see them in the sorting facility cause they couldn't do it.
Situations like this never seem to be mentioned.
I see no male privilege and to answer @TexRex question in another thread.
25 drivers: 3 white, 2 hispanic and 20 black.
In this job there is no white privilege.

 

[TenEightyOne]

We have 25 drivers. 2 are women....I've watched probably 10 women come in for driver training, which is a week...they couldn't do it.

I see no male privilege.

You sure?

25 drivers: 3 white, 2 hispanic and 20 black.
In this job there is no white privilege.

I think you're entirely misunderstanding the concept of 'white privilege'. How on earth does a place employing more black people show that 'white privilege' doesn't exist?

Then how does racism exist if race doesn't?

That's a good question. Did you read the CPS guidance I linked?

 

[ryzno]

You sure?

Yes. Every women that comes in has to go through the exact same training. Or should they give the women shorter and easier routes while they receive the same pay? That doesn't sound right, does it? We don't get paid by the hour.

I think you're entirely misunderstanding the concept of 'white privilege'. How on earth does a place employing more black people show that 'white privilege' doesn't exist?

I think you missed my point. The majority of employees are non white. Being white didn't get me this job. Surviving the week training and going through hell my first month solo did. Not that it matters but the warehouses are like a franchise. The owner of the one I work out of is Hindu. There is a lot of opportunity in this company, you gotta earn it. October will be my first year. I understand and have the patience to wait for my opportunity.
Yeah an old white man owns the company but drivers who have been with him for over a decade are now supervisors and managers.
Or is the fact the owner is white is what you are trying to point out?

 

[Tina Branford]

Yes. Every women that comes in has to go through the exact same training. Or should they give the women shorter and easier routes while they receive the same pay? That doesn't sound right, does it? We don't get paid by the hour.
I think you missed my point. The majority of employees are non white. Being white didn't get me this job. Surviving the week training and going through hell my first month solo did. Not that it matters but the warehouses are like a franchise. The owner of the one I work out of is Hindu. There is a lot of opportunity in this company, you gotta earn it. October will be my first year. I understand and have the patience to wait for my opportunity.
Yeah an old white man owns the company but drivers who have been with him for over a decade are now supervisors and managers.
Or is the fact the owner is white is what you are trying to point out?

Well said.


Well I said my piece in this topic. I'm sure we all have and neither of us with opposing views will adopt to another persons differing viewpoints into our own.

 

[TexRex]

I see no male privilege and to answer @TexRex question in another thread.
25 drivers: 3 white, 2 hispanic and 20 black.

Ok.



What question am I supposed to have asked to which that answer is relevant? I don't recall inquiring about the demographics of the workforce you're a part of.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes. Every women that comes in has to go through the exact same training. Or should they give the women shorter and easier routes while they receive the same pay? That doesn't sound right,

Is the failure rate for women in the training higher or lower than the failure rate for the men, as a matter of interest?

I think you missed my point. The majority of employees are non white. Being white didn't get me this job. Surviving the week training and going through hell my first month solo did. Not that it matters but the warehouses are like a franchise. Theowner of the one I work out of is Hindu. There is a lot of opportunity in this company, you gotta earn it. October will be my first year. I understand and have the patience to wait for my opportunity.
Yeah an old white man owns the company but drivers who have been with him for over a decade are now supervisors and managers.
Or is the fact the owner is white is what you are trying to point out?

I was trying to work out what you think any of that has to do with the core concept of 'white privilege'?

Well I said my piece in this topic. I'm sure we all have and neither of us with opposing views will adopt to another persons differing viewpoints into our own.

White privilege demonstrably exists, it seems that thus far you've chosen to say you don't like the sources in order to continue to deny that it exists in practice. Observed fact in a controlled setting is not a 'viewpoint', given the things that you wrote earlier about your own personal experiences I'm astonished that you can dismiss such as thing as a 'viewpoint' so easily.

 

[Exorcet]

True, but were I doing the measuring I'd be looking for beneficial changes in the right direction rather than for everything to simply even out in the end.

I think even this can be tricky, especially if certain factors correlate with other factors. Just say for the sake of argument that wages are completely equal across all jobs, but higher pay comes with higher stress always. You might have one group of people that on average prefer to lower their wages by taking lower paying jobs to escape stress. You might also see those members of the group that initially take the high pay/stress jobs end up failing or quitting. If the preferred point on the pay/stress spectrum changes with time, this can lead to a large portion of the group's population "downgrading" their jobs at once. Is that a good or bad trend?

neither of us with opposing views will adopt to another persons differing viewpoints into our own.

A bit off topic, but when I see this it sometimes bothers me. Shouldn't being open to change be someone's default stance? Being open to change doesn't mean that you have to change, just that you're willing to seriously reevaluate your stance.

 

[ryzno]

Ok.



What question am I supposed to have asked to which that answer is relevant? I don't recall inquiring about the demographics of the workforce you're a part of.

I posted something about having a pallet of Trump cologne and the jokes I heard cause of it. I mentioned how many white people were drivers and you said knowing the rest of the drivers would help. Somewhere in the America thread a week or so ago.

Is the failure rate for women in the training higher or lower than the failure rate for the men, as a matter of interest?

That's a interesting question.
Well, as far as women, very few apply in the first place and the 2 that currently work are 2 and 6 years in.
That said the failure rate for men is extremely high. The ones that survive training, usually steal something, get into an accident or quit in the first month. 90-130 stops can be hell 6 days a week.

 

[TexRex]

I posted something about having a pallet of Trump cologne and the jokes I heard cause of it. I mentioned how many white people were drivers and you said knowing the rest of the drivers would help. Somewhere in the America thread a week or so ago.

Yeah, about that...

It'd help to know just what sort of non-white they are.

...I was being facetious. I thought the "rolleyes" smiley and the "what sort of non-white" bit conveyed as much.

 

[PeterJB]

That's a good question. Did you read the CPS guidance I linked?

Had a flip through but it's quite long.

Race can come under a lot of definitions however at its core there is no question that humans living at all corners of the globe creates physiological variations when we are forced to adapt to living in a variety of different environments and eco-systems, and most of these communities have lived in relative isolation to one another until only very recently in human history, which is why culture and religion can be so closely tied to one's race. In the case of Islam, the Islamic world is far too ethnically diverse for criticism of Islam/Muslims to automatically be racist, which is how it's been getting painted by the far left as of late, who seem to have forgotten that white Muslims do exist, and have done so in Eastern Europe for several centuries.

If someone's having a go at a Muslim woman because they're black or Arab, that's racist, if they're doing so because they're wearing a burka or they're associating them with terrorism, that's Islamophobic.

 

[Tina Branford]

Is the failure rate for women in the training higher or lower than the failure rate for the men, as a matter of interest?



I was trying to work out what you think any of that has to do with the core concept of 'white privilege'?



White privilege demonstrably exists, it seems that thus far you've chosen to say you don't like the sources in order to continue to deny that it exists in practice. Observed fact in a controlled setting is not a 'viewpoint', given the things that you wrote earlier about your own personal experiences I'm astonished that you can dismiss such as thing as a 'viewpoint' so easily.

White privilege does not apply to everyone whom is white although it does exist in some cases and locations. There is Asian privilege in Asian nations and black privilege in many North African states. Privilege as is pertaining to individual races is entirely situational and environmental. It's when people say white privilege pervades every caveat of the world when it becomes a personal hypothesis and is in no way ever true.

 

[SestoScudo]

White privilege does not apply to everyone whom is white although it does exist in some cases and locations. There is Asian privilege in Asian nations and black privilege in many North African states. Privilege as is pertaining to individual races is entirely situational and environmental. It's when people say white privilege pervades every caveat of the world when it becomes a personal hypothesis and is in no way ever true.

North Africans are not really black but a mix of Arab and Berbers who speak Arabic.

North Africans are known to be racist towards blacks. But also Arabs and Berbers also hate each other. If you factor in Pan-Arabism and Berber Nationalism.

 

[Tina Branford]

North Africans are not really black but a mix of Arab and Berbers who speak Arabic.

North Africans are known to be racist towards blacks. But also Arabs and Berbers also hate each other. If you factot in Pan-Arabism and Berber Nationalism.

Hmm ok that's interesting. I just looked into it too.

 

[TenEightyOne]

White privilege does not apply to everyone whom is white although it does exist in some cases and locations.

Could you some up what 'white privilege' is as you think of it - we could well be talking about completely differing things?