Why can't a thread about religion be civil

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On that DGB,..... please explain the difference between:

Catholic, Protestant, E. Ortho, Pentecostal, AIC's, Later-day, Jehovahs, Nominal, ect....

Why do they believe different things if they read from the same text, AND, do they think that one and other will be saved/goto hell because the other doesnt believe exactly how their supposed to (sorry for the run-on)?
 
Most of the differences are based on interpretations of the Bible. They do however have a comon thread. Salvation through Christ.
Think of the Bible like the Constitution. We have our judicial branch to interpret laws as they pertain to the Constitution. As different justices come in then the law may be interpreded differently even though they are reading the same laws and the same constitution.
Hopefully that is a good example. I came up with it rather quickly.

I guess there are a few branches of Christianity that may believe that everyone else except them will go to hell but I think that is an exception rather than the rule.
I have only been in one Church that believed like that and it was when I was around 15 yrs. old. When my parents heard the pastor say that they confronted him after the service. Needless to say we never went back. Last time I drove by that church it only had a few cars in the lot on a Sunday morning.


Hope that helped some.
 
Makes sence,.... I'm pretty sure Jahova's whitness is like that,... arent they? I've heared pretty strange stuff about them. What's their story?

Not trying to sound pushy, I just have never had anyone be straight forward about this to me,... and you have good colateral so far 👍
 
Originally posted by Gil
*snip*

And as far as regurgitation of Bible-- You guys are making me study. And helping me keep a promise I made to myself after my father died. I remember a lot of stuff as a "PK" But I still have to look a lot of stuff up and read and re-read before I post what I have interpreted from the scriptures.

"PK"? Why I'm also a "PK".... :) Pretty much growing up, I shut most everything out, and now I'm playing catch up. :D
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Jahova's witnesses
Back down in Fort Lauderdale there was a Embassy of Jehova's witnesses compound right down the road from me.
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Makes sence,.... I'm pretty sure Jahova's whitness is like that,... arent they? I've heared pretty strange stuff about them. What's their story?

Not trying to sound pushy, I just have never had anyone be straight forward about this to me,... and you have good colateral so far 👍
`

RER.
What I understand about the Jehova's witness is that a lot of their salvation is based on works. Although they do believe in Jesus as their savior (as I understand it) his salvation is based on the condition that they work for it and work towards perfection.
They also believe(I think) that only the 144.000 will make it to heaven. Those that will make it are from their group and those will only be the ones among them that are closest to perfect.
The rest will live in paradise on earth. Some people call them a cult but I don't know enough about them to classify them.
I do have a problem with their belief in earning your salvation even though the bible says work out your salvation daily.
The Bible also says that Salvation is a gift freely given. If it's a gift then works shouldn't be attached to it. Then it becomes payment for services rendered. My interpretation on working out your salvation daily is to work at keeping it or work at becoming a better Christian. (more Christlike)
Anyway, if you want more info on them I'm sure I can find a lot of sites on the web, Just let me know.
Later.
 
Originally posted by Pako
"PK"? Why I'm also a "PK".... :) Pretty much growing up, I shut most everything out, and now I'm playing catch up. :D
I knew there was a reason I thought you were cool. I thought it was the whole band thing. Now I know better.

Didn't you hate having to either appear to be better or worse than the crowd you were in to be "acceptable":D

I had one major vice. I drove WAY too fast most of the time. But I usually got taken to most parties and stuff...Everyone needs a reliable designated driver.:lol:

:cool:So we're both PK's and Guitar Players. Too Cool!!!:cool:
 
:lol:, life is a trip for sure... Even more so, my drummer is also a "PK'er". You would never guess it unless he told you. ;)

Oh man, acceptance was a huge part of my growing up. Always trying to prove people wrong with what they 'assumed' I was like. I sure showed them...:D, but all is well now.
 
Originally posted by DGB454
`

RER.
What I understand about the Jehova's witness is that a lot of their salvation is based on works. Although they do believe in Jesus as their savior (as I understand it) his salvation is based on the condition that they work for it and work towards perfection.
They also believe(I think) that only the 144.000 will make it to heaven. Those that will make it are from their group and those will only be the ones among them that are closest to perfect.
The rest will live in paradise on earth. Some people call them a cult but I don't know enough about them to classify them.
I do have a problem with their belief in earning your salvation even though the bible says work out your salvation daily.
The Bible also says that Salvation is a gift freely given. If it's a gift then works shouldn't be attached to it. Then it becomes payment for services rendered. My interpretation on working out your salvation daily is to work at keeping it or work at becoming a better Christian. (more Christlike)
Anyway, if you want more info on them I'm sure I can find a lot of sites on the web, Just let me know.
Later.


ooooooooook,..... I think I remember learing a little about them. They believe that a select few are "saints" and those people get to go to heaven. I think they we're called Quakers(?) during colonization.

What's hilarious about that, to me, is that with that phylosiphy, I can quite possibly be one of those saints, not even believe in the cause, and still make it to heaven :lol: :lol: :lol: aaaaaaahhhhhh,.... :lol: thats some sorry stuff :lol: Thanx DGB 👍

So we got them outta the way,.... what about Seventh Day Adventists(sp?) My sister dated one and she says it's a little goofy compaired to modern Christianity. Any thoughts?
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
So we got them outta the way,.... what about Seventh Day Adventists(sp?) My sister dated one and she says it's a little goofy compaired to modern Christianity. Any thoughts?
Check out this site, I won't quote it word for word... http://www.religioustolerance.org/sda.htm

The root site gives a fair comparison of religions around the world.
 
OMG,... I could tear that apart. How could anyone enjoy life with rules like this:

Entertainment: They should watch only uplifting entertainment. They should "shun all questionable worldly amusements such as the theater and dance".


and how fair is this?:

The role of women: In common with many conservative Christian churches, the question of ordination of women is actively debated within the SDA church. The special role of the SDA founder, Ellen White, is proof that women are able to contribute to church life. However, although they have been allowed to be ordained as elders for many years, none are eligible as pastors. This decision was based largely on the text of 1 Corinthians 14:34-37 when St. Paul presented as a command of God that women should keep quiet in church, and remain subordinate. In 1 Timothy 2:12A, he said that no woman was to teach or have authority over a man; she is to remain silent.:eek:

Let's move on to that discussion: Why cant women be leaders in the faith? It seems no matter what religion were talking about, women get no respect. WTF?
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Let's move on to that discussion: Why cant women be leaders in the faith? It seems no matter what religion were talking about, women get no respect. WTF?
Actually, in many non-Orthodox sects of Judaism, there are female rabbais; the practice has been allowed and more acceptable in the past 20-30 years.

And I have passed by many Christian houses of worship in which the Pastor has certainly has a female name listed on it's sign.
 
Originally posted by pupik
Actually, in many non-Orthodox sects of Judaism, there are female rabbais; the practice has been allowed and more acceptable in the past 20-30 years.

And I have passed by many Christian houses of worship in which the Pastor has certainly has a female name listed on it's sign.


But why is it OK to change God's rules? The text says right there in black-and-white.... women will remain silent.
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
But why is it OK to change God's rules? The text says right there in black-and-white.... women will remain silent.
It also says Thou Shall Not Kill.

Besides, Jews follow the New Testament (which 1 Timothy is part of) like you and I follow speed limit signs.
 
Originally posted by pupik
It also says Thou Shall Not Kill.

Besides, Jews follow the New Testament (which 1 Timothy is part of) like you and I follow speed limit signs.

So, in actuallitly, anyone who who breaks God's laws is only subject to being a hypocrit, and not punished? So his word is 'negotiable' pertaining to your conveniences?
 
No, just open to interpretation. If the Big Cheese is peeved, he'll just send a swarm of locusts at us, or turn us into a pillar of salt.

How's that for damnation?
 
Originally posted by pupik


How's that for damnation?


You call it damnation, I call it salvation. ;) I have a fealing that God cant punish me,. for some reason, I just dont think I can be punished by something I dont believe in. If he does sweep through with a reign of terror, he'll punish the hypocrits before non-believers.

Look at it through Saddams eyes,... Id much rather discipline the people close to me that I knew I'd have a direct affect on, and save the non-believers for last :lol:,.... ok,... bad example.... but still......
 
I dunno, I think religion has to change somewhat with the times. Core beliefs don't necessarily have to change (otherwise, a religious following would be null and void), but the finer points of the Bible/Torah are questionable since there are several overlapping and varying viewpoints that don't excatly agree with one another.

I certainly don't follow the Sabbath to the letter of Jewish Law (no driving, working, use of electronics, etc). It used to be that if you were sick, you couldn't get medical help on the Sabbath, but that changed. I'd say that's for the better.
 
Check the website I gave you, I haven't a clue.

Just don't get M5Power started on the Amish!
 
I agree with Pupik on a lot of his points. Keep in mind that the Bible is (as it's called) the living word.
Just like every living thing it changes although the thing that makes it what it is never changes. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Bible is abaptable to the changing times but the basic message never changes.(Salvation through Christ)
Very similar to the U.S. constitution in the way it can be adapted for the time we are in.
 
Originally posted by DGB454
Just like every living thing it changes although the thing that makes it what it is never changes.

This, to me, is the central problem with all the major religions. They long for some state of total stasis, and aspire to the prefection of god. When they can't say in good conscience that living things never change they say instead that life never changes, utterly ignoring a little thing called time. But that is false.

God is perfect. No Christian would ague against that. But I wonder how many understand what that has to mean. Perfection is a final state. Nothing more can be done, achieved, attained, etc. It is a sort of divine grid-lock. And I don't see how it can be a good thing. After all, "perfectionism" is a liablility in many people, always striving for the impossible.

In contrast to static perfection is something you could call becomming. Becomming would characterize life as it actually happens. It would also characterize any sort of creation.

Then how can perfection create anything at all? How can the world change? How would one account for the seasons? All of these things are indicative of becomming.

Why would god "create" a world where the central aim is to avoid and/or renounce most of it (deliverance from temptation, longing for permanence and perfection) in order to be with him after you die?

But I don't think this state of prefection is inaccessible, only the way it is expected to be from a superficial interpretation of the Christian literature would tend to make it seem so. I mean, lets face it... the bible is thousands of years old. How attuned could we really expect to be to it. It has undergone so many translations and modifications, especially in the middle ages, that the messages originally contained in it are mostly hidden to us. The language we read it in didn't even exist at the times it was written.

So if never-changing perfection is, indeed, possible, how is it?

It is in the becomming. It is the exact opposite of what rote, inaacurate biblical regurgitation suggests. It is perfect that a flower should bloom and then die. It is beautiful that civilizations and religions have come to be, declined, and died. It is beautiful when a baby is born, even though everybody knows it will suffer many times throughout life for different reasons, and then die. What could be more perfect that the fact that everything is constantly renewed? It is perfect that these tings will continue after we die, and that we are a speck of dust observing the monumental change that life and the universe are. Nothing "never changes"... nothing, in and of itself, is perfect. Believing that somewhere, out there, there is something that never changes is an emotional cop-out, a defense against the perfection and the totality of constant change, which is growth, which is life. Life is perfect because of birth and death, not in spite of it. Holding out one thing (god) that is exempt from life only serves to diminish the preception and experience of it. It would seem then that the only way to truly experience perfection would be to embrace becomming and change, the only tenable object of faith.

Nothing is perfect. Nothing never changes.
 
They aspire to perfection. That indicates that they have not reached it. Maybe the joy is in the pursuit of perfection.
 
Originally posted by milefile
This, to me, is the central problem with all the major religions. They long for some state of total stasis, and aspire to the prefection of god. When they can't say in good conscience that living things never change they say instead that life never changes, utterly ignoring a little thing called time. But that is false.

It's because of all of those §$"!§ liberals.... If I was taught Latin(Church or Medieval, not Classical), I would read the Latin translation of the Bible. But, alas, public schools can't teach it because they're afraid of getting sued, and there aren't many people interested in it(My Classical Latin 1 class consisted of 16 people:eek:)
 
lol.....bar fight......i personally have no religion.......and dont try to convert me cos i will ignore you....

merry christmas
 
I believe in science. What you see is what you get. Humans cant accept the fact that things are most often simpler than they think.


I have thought about this for so long that all of the thoughts in my head have been so muddled I have trouble releasing them in a logical manner that comes together as a sentence!

Basically, I have "faith" in the goodness of humans, and the fact that we are all very similar and for the most part, want the same things. I know that what I am saying here makes me sound pretty stupid, because I have trouble expressing these kinds of thoughts. But anyways, if you want to know what I wish listen to "Imagine" by John Lennon. I wish people could live happily together and like everyone.


I kind of want to prove that I can be a good person without religion. If you need religion to make you want to give someone a ride home, or toss a homeless guy a dollar, you obviously dont see why something like that is good for the world on your own. Someone has just told you that you should do things like that. I always do nice things to people whenever I get the chance.
 
Its far from being only liberals who do not want religion tought in public schools. Its unconstitutional to bring church and state together using federal funds. Public schools belong to the whole country , everyone. Look at it this way Public schools belong to everyone, everyone does not share the same religion. How is it fair to teach religion in public schools unless you segregate the school by religion . Now in doing that won't you be discriminating against everyone involved ? Is that type of discrimination or seperation even if it were possible, desireable ? Anyway I am not considered a liberal and I am against teaching religion in school unless it is in a purely historical context. You wan't to learn religion talk to your parents or go to church.
 
Originally posted by milefile
This, to me, is the central problem with all the major religions. They long for some state of total stasis, and aspire to the prefection of god. When they can't say in good conscience that living things never change they say instead that life never changes, utterly ignoring a little thing called time. But that is false.

God is perfect. No Christian would ague against that. But I wonder how many understand what that has to mean. Perfection is a final state. Nothing more can be done, achieved, attained, etc. It is a sort of divine grid-lock. And I don't see how it can be a good thing. After all, "perfectionism" is a liablility in many people, always striving for the impossible.

In contrast to static perfection is something you could call becomming. Becomming would characterize life as it actually happens. It would also characterize any sort of creation.

Then how can perfection create anything at all? How can the world change? How would one account for the seasons? All of these things are indicative of becomming.

Why would god "create" a world where the central aim is to avoid and/or renounce most of it (deliverance from temptation, longing for permanence and perfection) in order to be with him after you die?

But I don't think this state of prefection is inaccessible, only the way it is expected to be from a superficial interpretation of the Christian literature would tend to make it seem so. I mean, lets face it... the bible is thousands of years old. How attuned could we really expect to be to it. It has undergone so many translations and modifications, especially in the middle ages, that the messages originally contained in it are mostly hidden to us. The language we read it in didn't even exist at the times it was written.

So if never-changing perfection is, indeed, possible, how is it?

It is in the becomming. It is the exact opposite of what rote, inaacurate biblical regurgitation suggests. It is perfect that a flower should bloom and then die. It is beautiful that civilizations and religions have come to be, declined, and died. It is beautiful when a baby is born, even though everybody knows it will suffer many times throughout life for different reasons, and then die. What could be more perfect that the fact that everything is constantly renewed? It is perfect that these tings will continue after we die, and that we are a speck of dust observing the monumental change that life and the universe are. Nothing "never changes"... nothing, in and of itself, is perfect. Believing that somewhere, out there, there is something that never changes is an emotional cop-out, a defense against the perfection and the totality of constant change, which is growth, which is life. Life is perfect because of birth and death, not in spite of it. Holding out one thing (god) that is exempt from life only serves to diminish the preception and experience of it. It would seem then that the only way to truly experience perfection would be to embrace becomming and change, the only tenable object of faith.

Nothing is perfect. Nothing never changes.

You are right. Nothing is perfect on earth. That doesn't mean we still can't strive for it.
There has been a huge push to get to the real translation of the Bible and since the finding of the dead sea scrolls people who study them are getting a better understanding of the real translation of the bible. All in all the major theme in the Bible does not change.

Back to perfection. We as Christians know perfection is not obtainable by anything we try and do. The Bible says everyone has fallen short. Everyone except one. We also know that the only way to obtain everlasting life is to accept that one who is perfect as our savior because he took all our imperfections on himself. He was perfect because he lived the life God laid out for him just as God wanted him. He could stand before anyone and no one could find fault in anything he did according to God's law.

If you look back to the old testament and see all the laws and rituals they had to follow and it was a full time job to try and stay perfect before God. So God told man that he would make a way for them to appear perfect before him and so blood sacrafices began. The sacrafices were done on the best of everything man had. The most perfect animals he owned. This all lead up to the point where God sent his son who was perfect and he was the final sacrafice. Why God set it up like this I don't know. Sometimes I think it was because man needs something that is tangible(something he can see or point to) to justify his perfection before God. If that makes sense. If you look back at the realtionship that Adam had with God it was perfect. God walked and talked with Adam but Adam wanted more.(or thought he did.) Adam didn't need a sacrafice to stand before God. All he had to do was love him. I think that's the way it's suppose to be but we messed up.

Anyway I don't understand all of it but I trust that God get's it and I am still learning and will continue to learn all my life.
 
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