Why Qualifying could make a comeback.. And why it hasn't yet.

[TurismoTalker]

I wanted to open another constructive discussion, to share thoughts on a topic that in my opinion could really add to the competitiveness of the single-player experience: Qualifying Sessions, like we had in past Gran Turismo titles (very simplified, but efficient).
It’s truly hard to understand why they disappeared, and I think this is a topic that deserves at least some attention.
We need to understand whether there would actually be issues with SOPHY or the basic AI during qualifying, or if this was simply an oversight by the team (especially considering how much focus they’ve placed on competitive racing in recent years).

I’d really like to hear what the community thinks:

-- How would you feel about implementing qualifying sessions in GT7?
-- Could it add value to single races, custom races, and championships?
-- How could it work with Sophy?

I don’t think this would be a utopian idea or an unrealistic addition, since qualifying is a key dynamic in most real-world racing, and it was also present in previous Gran Turismo games.
If you believe such an addition would have little impact or would be irrelevant, I’d be curious to understand the reasons, so we could perhaps connect them to PD’s current design choices.

 

[bduddy]

Qualifying for the kind of races and AI the game focuses on now makes zero sense. If the game was focused around the chili races, with their close competition and superior AI, it would (there's even one where you start 1st!) but PD has chosen not to go in that direction.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I would like it added to create race mode. A proper session with all the cars on track setting times that set the grid like in GT4. It would make create race mode perfect on PS5 so you've got Sophy AI to race against

 

[TurismoTalker]

the kind of races

I think that in restricted races or in custom races against sophy it can be used in the best way, especially in category races, even though sophy can handle any car well if set up correctly.

A proper session with all the cars on track setting times that set the grid like in GT4.

Yes exactly without asking too much. Simply a session of 2\3 laps or a maximum of 5\10 minutes where the cars do the fast lap. With fuel and tires that are consumed in the session. They would certainly enrich the most difficult races, but especially the races against Sophy.

 

[ShiftingGears]

If they had qualifying then they'd need AI that would be competitive without starting a mile in front of you, and they don't really have an interest in doing that

 

[TheWeapon874]

I think it would be a great addition to daily races too. One lap qualy before the race....

 

[wagnerFAM98]

It's actually easy to understand why they don't implement qualifying sessions. It's because of the annoying chase the rabbit style 95% of the single player career races get. If you don't know what it means, the whole point is actually to make you pass every car within the race length - you can clearly notice this intention by the atrocious distance cars start from each other in a lot of these races. Now you can see why starting in first would totally kill the experience PD wants you to have.

Now, why does PD insist with this crappy chase the rabbit implementation? That's a whole different story.

 

[Meythia]

Qualifying is an illusion, you know you gonna be 1st in a "competitive" car and could save that 1-2 minutes by having a starting position selector - that for custom races already is in the game.

 

[TurismoTalker]

they'd need AI that would be competitive without starting a mile in front of you

Custom races with Sophy, if you know how to set them up, are incredible and really challenging. I'm an A-S driver, and if I put myself in equal conditions with Sophy given a boost, I really struggle to win. It all depends on my ability to create conditions that make the race competitive. Of course, standard single-player races are easy for me or for others.. it would be enough to just choose a less powerful car, like Sophy.

It's because of the annoying chase the rabbit style 95% of the single player career races get.

I totally understand what you're saying, but with Sophy I can assure you it’s a completely different experience. If you set up Sophy in a way that it can beat you, trust me.. it will. I do agree that many single-player races just have you chasing the opponent, but it would be enough to simply choose a less powerful car to make up for PD’s inability to give us proper limits. The game is easy, but we have the ability to make it more challenging in a positive way with custom races.

Qualifying is an illusion, you know you gonna be 1st in a "competitive" car and could save that 1-2 minutes by having a starting position selector - that for custom races already is in the game.

Sorry, but that’s a pointless answer. These are two different things, as you said. If you don’t like the idea of implementing qualifying, explain it like others have done; but comparing and equating two different things is just silly. Qualifying lets you EARN your spot on the grid in a few minutes\laps, while being able to manually choose your starting position skips the whole dynamic and all the effort behind it. Of course they added that option so they wouldn’t have to implement proper qualifying in the game, but it’s not an "illusion".

 

[Voodoovaj]

Sorry, but that’s a pointless answer. These are two different things, as you said. If you don’t like the idea of implementing qualifying, explain it like others have done; but comparing and equating two different things is just silly. Qualifying lets you EARN your spot on the grid in a few minutes\laps, while being able to manually choose your starting position skips the whole dynamic and all the effort behind it. Of course they added that option so they wouldn’t have to implement proper qualifying in the game, but it’s not an "illusion".

Well, @Meythia makes a good point in simply allowing us to choose a starting position, which reduces the payout. Qualifying is indeed an illusion when it comes to the AI. People want it simply because the current single player AI is a pain.

Qualifying supports the illusion that you are starting the race (single player of course) in a position on merit, but it opens the door of questions like "how good is the AI?" what level are you qualifying against? Choosing the starting position would be better. Not to mention, it is something that gets skipped over in racing games all the time. I HATE qualifying in single player games. A start position slider solves everyone's problem.

And, remember, very few people have tried Sophy in a way that (we hope) will be implement in the next game. Everyone will want a slider when (or if) that becomes the new single player 🤣

 

[Meythia]

Sorry, but that’s a pointless answer. These are two different things, as you said. If you don’t like the idea of implementing qualifying, explain it like others have done; but comparing and equating two different things is just silly. Qualifying lets you EARN your spot on the grid in a few minutes\laps, while being able to manually choose your starting position skips the whole dynamic and all the effort behind it. Of course they added that option so they wouldn’t have to implement proper qualifying in the game, but it’s not an "illusion".

Qualifying as in "earning" your position is an illusion.
I say this because with every competitive car as by the game rules, you inevitable will end up on P1.
And a car that does not put you on P1 after qualifying will also not win the race.
You are condensing the whole racing event into a single lap.

If you want to "earn" your position, you would have to use a car that is much weaker than any AI car, depending on the race between 40PP to 60PP below its limit or suggestion.
But even then you would end up on P1, because that is how "strong" the AI is created to be: allowing the player to win a race from far behind -> if you start on P1, there is no racing left anymore and it is nothing but a glorified time trial, or a mission "The Pass".

 

[notarjy]

One aspect I enjoy of forza motorsport 23 is the practice session with AI traffic before a single player race event. It gives a real race weekend feel to doing events and I like being able to get a feel for the car/track combo and get a sense of how competitive my current tune is before the race itself. There is also the grid setting of course but I find this is not what makes the feature great to me, so the actual qualifying/setting the grid component I can take or leave.

I know with how the single player races in GT7 are generally more like passing challenges this probably can't be implemented in the same way but in general I do like the idea of having some sort of timed session before the main race. I think with Sophy AI it would be interesting because it could both give the player a sense of their competitiveness before the race but also perhaps let Sophy adjust to the player to give the best possible race experience.

 

[TurismoTalker]

because that is how "strong" the AI is created to be

So, if you mean only the basic AI, I totally agree with you, in fact the slowness of them should be completely reviewed. Actually I have to correct myself, the races with basic AI are created to make you win, giving the first of the cpu 20\30 seconds of difference compared to us (and it's ridiculous).
Now however I advise you to do a race against Sophy with: same stock car for all 20 including you, weak turbo, real slipstream.

That was made by @MGR on another thread, and can describe how Sophy can be really competitive. Now I don't want to talk about the other thread, which I recommend you go and visit, but the implementation of qualifications would be useful especially in races on par with Sophy. Also if they could make small improvements to the basic AI in the most famous 30 minute races (600pp,700pp,800pp), and lower the pp limit they could be useful there too.

let Sophy adjust to the player to give the best possible race experience.

Exactly, it's also right to get familiar with the car and the track... and as we can see, Sophy knows how to adapt based on the selected turbo, slipstream, tyres etc.

I HATE qualifying in single player games.

I respect your point of view, even if I don't agree with it. Qualifying could be (even if in a few races) a way to approach the event with weaker cars just for the sake of the challenge, or for a test with opponents. Or maybe for players who are not very skilled to "earn" some positions on the grid instead of simply selecting it (among other things anyone would always put themselves last to earn more, and probably no one first, I can’t imagine that 😂). In the future, I would add a random grid option so that all starting positions get used and the faster cars are spread out.

 

[Meythia]

In the future, I would add a random grid option so that all starting positions get used and the faster cars are spread out.

That doesnt really make any sense. Only a fraction of it if one of the fastest cars starts last (qualification did not finish), but having fast cars in the middle is unrealistic in every way.

Qualifying could be (even if in a few races) a way to approach the event with weaker cars just for the sake of the challenge, or for a test with opponents.

You can do that already: select a weaker car and join the racec.

Or maybe for players who are not very skilled to "earn" some positions on the grid instead of simply selecting it

Casually speaking: if my time is limited, I would want to instantly jump into the game and hope I finish it (GT7 makes this work), with a sense of pride for beating difficult races (whatever that means is up to each person).
Qualifying increases the time necessary for no gains in "fun" or "thrill".
Adding it already implicates it would be necessary to beat a race on P1, because the game offers the chance to start upfront, so all balancing will be made with the player assumed to be starting on P1.

 

[Voodoovaj]

So, if you mean only the basic AI, I totally agree with you, in fact the slowness of them should be completely reviewed. Actually I have to correct myself, the races with basic AI are created to make you win, giving the first of the cpu 20\30 seconds of difference compared to us (and it's ridiculous).
Now however I advise you to do a race against Sophy with: same stock car for all 20 including you, weak turbo, real slipstream.

All valid points, however, qualifying against the AI is still just an illusion. Even with Sophy on weak boost, it's lapping around your time. It's not doing it's best. So, for each player, there would need to be different goal posts. Given it's a single player experience, you don't want to make the difficulty ramp insurmountable. I suspect that "no boost" Sophy will be used for most events and "weak boost" Sophy for the later events.

In either case, the Sophy times would essentially be random points around your time. They could set it up like the time trial events with three target times. Or heck, they could just randomize the start positions. It gets messy. And, most importantly of all, will anyone use it? In games where this is forced, I HATE it. It's one of those things that sounds cool in theory. When GT had it, I skipped it all the time.

What I will say is this, if they implement weak boost sophy into later events, the start position will need adjustment, because IMHO too many players will be incapable of getting to 1st from last.

 

[TurismoTalker]

What I will say is this, if they implement weak boost sophy into later events, the start position will need adjustment, because IMHO too many players will be incapable of getting to 1st from last.

That's for sure, most players have no idea about Sophy's potential.they could just randomize the start positions.

they could just randomize the start positions.

You used better words, I meant the same thing, sorry but I use translator a lot 😂

In games where this is forced, I HATE it. It's one of those things that sounds cool in theory. When GT had it, I skipped it all the time.

Yes absolutely I also almost never used it in the old GTs, but I would absolutely not make it forced, only as a feature.

You can do that already

Yes, I understand what you are talking about but it has no correlation. I am talking about qualification, you are talking about selecting the grid. One is a modality, the other is a tool. I also understand that you might not like it, and these are points of view that can actually be correlated to PD's choices. But if every race is created only to make you win, what's the fun in choosing the grid selection... it would suck, it wouldn't be a career but simply an arcade. If you randomize it with Sophy (the grid selection) at least make each race different, but then it would fall back on the poor AI in ALL single player events. I would prefer a few races structured with Sophy than many races with poor AI. Choosing the highest grid position constantly could totally kill the mode and make it easy, banal and predictable. I don't want to win, I want to be in conditions where victory is difficult even if I start second, and not because I choose it, only for the possibility of that lap of Sophy on that car. Maybe I was lucky and the other cars actually push harder than me, or maybe the exact opposite. I think the most fun thing about racing is the unpredictability and qualifying, which yes, just gives you the PERCEPTION of fighting for something that in reality is perhaps all written, in my opinion they would give a high dose of unpredictability.

 

[ShiftingGears]

So, if you mean only the basic AI, I totally agree with you, in fact the slowness of them should be completely reviewed. Actually I have to correct myself, the races with basic AI are created to make you win, giving the first of the cpu 20\30 seconds of difference compared to us (and it's ridiculous).
Now however I advise you to do a race against Sophy with: same stock car for all 20 including you, weak turbo, real slipstream.
View attachment 1463340
That was made by @MGR on another thread, and can describe how Sophy can be really competitive. Now I don't want to talk about the other thread, which I recommend you go and visit, but the implementation of qualifications would be useful especially in races on par with Sophy. Also if they could make small improvements to the basic AI in the most famous 30 minute races (600pp,700pp,800pp), and lower the pp limit they could be useful there too.

Exactly, it's also right to get familiar with the car and the track... and as we can see, Sophy knows how to adapt based on the selected turbo, slipstream, tyres etc.

I respect your point of view, even if I don't agree with it. Qualifying could be (even if in a few races) a way to approach the event with weaker cars just for the sake of the challenge, or for a test with opponents. Or maybe for players who are not very skilled to "earn" some positions on the grid instead of simply selecting it (among other things anyone would always put themselves last to earn more, and probably no one first, I can’t imagine that 😂). In the future, I would add a random grid option so that all starting positions get used and the faster cars are spread out.

I agree its more challenging, but the AI is still getting boosted on Boost Weak setting. So it's not Sophy being better, or picking better lines, it's just PD disguising how they implement the boost.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I agree its more challenging, but the AI is still getting boosted on Boost Weak setting. So it's not Sophy being better, or picking better lines, it's just PD disguising how they implement the boost.

It's the other way around. Sophy is slowed down either more, or less. When it's less, people are saying it's "boosted". The same is true with the base AI. Base AI can do VERY fast laps when it runs at 100%, but it rarely does it.

The poor lines it chooses, at times, are to avoid issues (the the chicane of death).

Boosted AI would be super human. I have yet to see sophy record a lap that I could not replicate and/or beat. Sophy hasn't even shown us high DR A+/DR S times yet. "Boost" is a less inflammatory term than "handicap", because that's what it happening. Boost weak, is actually a weak handicap.

 

[ShiftingGears]

It's the other way around. Sophy is slowed down either more, or less. When it's less, people are saying it's "boosted". The same is true with the base AI. Base AI can do VERY fast laps when it runs at 100%, but it rarely does it.

The poor lines it chooses, at times, are to avoid issues (the the chicane of death).

Boosted AI would be super human.

Your understanding of Sophy in this game is not correct. Sophy in GT7 right now is just the base AI, with the Sophy racecraft over the top of it. It isn't a toned down world-beating Sophy.

The lines it takes are poor, because it's just the same AI as the regular AI underneath it. And if the lines are poor, it should be slower, and if it isn't, it's because it's getting boosted.

Below is me running against Sophy on Boost = Weak. The same that everyone thinks is "unboosted" when its ahead. I take a much better line through the corner, am on full throttle earlier and I can't get ahead of the AI despite carrying the advantage for 20 seconds after turn 1.



It's boosted.

 

[HarVee]

I have not read the entire thread, but I agree that qualifying should come back because I am sick and tired of playing chase-the-rabbit.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Your understanding of Sophy in this game is not correct. Sophy in GT7 right now is just the base AI, with the Sophy racecraft over the top of it. It isn't a toned down world-beating Sophy.

The lines it takes are poor, because it's just the same AI as the regular AI underneath it. And if the lines are poor, it should be slower, and if it isn't, it's because it's getting boosted.

Below is me running against Sophy on Boost = Weak. The same that everyone thinks is "unboosted" when its ahead. I take a much better line through the corner, am on full throttle earlier and I can't get ahead of the AI despite carrying the advantage for 20 seconds after turn 1.



It's boosted.

FYI, your car's are not equal. You have more drag with the front air dam, so you'll lose pace over time.

 

[TurismoTalker]

I have not read the entire thread, but I agree that qualifying should come back because I am sick and tired of playing chase-the-rabbit.

How and where would you implement it? In 30 minute races and clubman cup plus etc.? Maybe the more difficult ones where not all players can afford the most powerful car? Or even players who simply don't want to do the car setup and want to immediately dive into qualifying to see their level and if it's feasible with the current car and setup, which can be changed in those 5\10 minutes of qualifying if you want.

Your understanding of Sophy in this game is not correct.

I don't talk about things I don't know, but it seems like there's room for further discussion about how Sophy fits into the developers' game plan. However, in my opinion, for not too experienced players, it would make sense to use a qualification against opponents who actually know how to make decisions (for example when you attack them, when you make a mistake, when they try to block your trajectory). In qualification, I imagine that sophy doesn't have turbo conditions, simply because there are no other drivers to fight with, then she would fight against her own time that she set in qualification.

 

[newmedia_dev]

It’s a really nice idea, in practice it doesn’t quite work especially the way Sophy can drive.

It works in sports mode (GTWS) because no one is that consistent and we’ll just humans.

Programming that much variability in to the base AI hard, and Sophy works in a way that works to the players pace (rip violet sophy)

It would also be artificial in single player as it would be simulated for the AI cars, the AI is in no shape to allow for hot lap slow lap car fields as it is or how it could be done in GT.

Nice idea but I don’t think it’s gonna happen anytime soon.

 

[Theufcveteran]

It’s a really nice idea, in practice it doesn’t quite work especially the way Sophy can drive.

It works in sports mode (GTWS) because no one is that consistent and we’ll just humans.

Programming that much variability in to the base AI hard, and Sophy works in a way that works to the players pace (rip violet sophy)

It would also be artificial in single player as it would be simulated for the AI cars, the AI is in no shape to allow for hot lap slow lap car fields as it is or how it could be done in GT.

Nice idea but I don’t think it’s gonna happen anytime soon.

One-shot qualifying could work. You can either watch the AI's runs or skip them until you're up, and you get one lap, or maybe you get three laps, but in that time, you're the only car on track.

 

[newmedia_dev]

One-shot qualifying could work. You can either watch the AI's runs or skip them until you're up, and you get one lap, or maybe you get three laps, but in that time, you're the only car on track.

Basically just grid order RNG is what it would be.

A half way house would be the player choosing the starting position for themselves for a difficult bonus is more feasible

 

[Tired Tyres]

Qualifying as in "earning" your position is an illusion.
I say this because with every competitive car as by the game rules, you inevitable will end up on P1.
And a car that does not put you on P1 after qualifying will also not win the race.
You are condensing the whole racing event into a single lap.

If you want to "earn" your position, you would have to use a car that is much weaker than any AI car, depending on the race between 40PP to 60PP below its limit or suggestion.
But even then you would end up on P1, because that is how "strong" the AI is created to be: allowing the player to win a race from far behind -> if you start on P1, there is no racing left anymore and it is nothing but a glorified time trial, or a mission "The Pass".

It doesn't look like you race Sophy. Winning is not a given.

 

[Theufcveteran]

Basically just grid order RNG is what it would be.

A half way house would be the player choosing the starting position for themselves for a difficult bonus is more feasible

True, since like you say Sophy's pace (primarily I think if you are faster than its base level) depends on how fast you are going.

You could pre-simulate qualifying times for Sophy based on a chosen difficulty perhaps and then you race against those times. With some level of randomness in there to simulate real qualifying, but indeed it's not ideal. You couldn't do an F1 style qualifying session.

 

[AttackDickie]

I've started playing PC 2 again (which has qualifying) and was thinking how I wish GT or Forza with all their cars captured motorsport as well as PC 2 (I was in a Ginetta wishing it was a Spoon Honda 2000.)

There are pros and cons and reasons for and against having qualifying in a game. There are events in PC 2 that are unlocked by obtaining a certain number of poles through qualifying. And so while I've enjoyed the challenge of trying to get pole, like only being able to run a few laps because of limited fuel. When I've got it, I've just let cars pass me at the start of the race to make it interesting.

Now I'm only playing on the default difficulty (which is about 50%) and the Ginetta series has a small field. But I think we might get a better idea if it's viable with Project Motor Racing, which will have a hard mode with a set difficulty, because I can imagine with a large field and competitive AI it would be more interesting. And with Sophy, maybe the next GT can at least feature it in some series.

 

[ShiftingGears]

FYI, your car's are not equal. You have more drag with the front air dam, so you'll lose pace over time.

As I mentioned in the other thread, the result is identical without the air dam. Sophy boosts out of corners.

 

[TurismoTalker]

There are events in PC 2 that are unlocked by obtaining a certain number of poles through qualifying.

I find this comparison amazing. Gran Turismo, with these graphics and physics, for me has the power to copy features from other video games and make them better. I'm not talking about how they could implement it, but about the hype it would generate, simply because the only thing that can't disappoint us about Gran Turismo is the gameplay. Your comparison is perfect because, even though I might not like it, it would be interesting to see how Sophy could adapt, create new dynamics, etc. Especially in possible tournaments vs Sophy, it would be really interesting.

You couldn't do an F1 style qualifying session.

Yeah, like this it’s too hard to implement, but in a simplified way it might make sense.