Why tune a 6-speed to a 5-speed?

[JDigital]

I've noticed that a couple of the tunes offered around here will take a 6-speed car and tune it to where you only get to 5th gear on the track it's tuned for. Why?

I redid the gearing on one of the Clio 550 tunes to make use of all 6 gears and instantly I shaved a good .5 sec off of my record lap time, I'm sure with a few more laps I could have shaved a whole second. And a little more time fine tuning the gearing should have me drop 1.2-1.5 seconds.

Is there a reason for tuning 6 speeds down to 5? I've thought about the less shifts angle but I guess being as I use the G25 and shift pretty quickly that the extra shifts are made up for with stronger gears?

 

[Hotrails17]

most obvious thing is that you dont need to go 210 on the Eiger but to get technical it deals with the torque curves of the cars and if there is enough torque in a car then it can handle the 5-speed RPM drops. if the torque is great enough at a low RPM then it helps to use that RPM range to your advantage, ie: 5-speed gearbox. no matter how fast you can shift you will always slow down a tad when you shift therefore: Less gears=Faster lap times 👍

 

[NLxAROSA]

What Hotrails17 said. Add to that that some of the cars have a really low gear ratio in the 6th gear since it's an 'economy' gear, meaning it will accelerate like crap in 6th. And some of the high-powered cars have so much power you'll have terrible amounts of wheelspin if you use all the gears (even if you make them as long as possible).

 

[Stotty]

Couple of reasons...

On shorter/slower tracks like Eiger & London you might need as few as 3 gears... tune it to 6 and you spend too much time changing gear.

You might want a wider gear spread on cars with lots of torque.

 

[The Outlaw]

The guys above hit the nail on the head pretty well 👍 The broader the torque curve a engine creates, the longer gear you'll want in order to keep the engine in its peak torque range. If you take a look at the Clio/GTLM torque curve you'll notice that torque drastically drops off into the higher rpms. With the broader or longer gears you're effectively helping to keep the motor at a lower RPM (where there is more torque) in between shifts. If you give the car a 6-speed with short gears you're effectively putting the engine in a operating range that is closer to redline in between shifts, where there is much less torque/power. Not only would you be placing the rpms at a higher rpm range where there is less torque/power, but you would also waste time needlessly shifting. With cars that have a linear torque curve (more like this "/") it usually helps to have the shortest gears possible, as the motor always increases in torque as it increases in rpms, so by having closer spaced gears you're helping to keep the rpms up in a range where there is more power.


Hopefully that makes sense...

 

[Stevisiov]

Another thing worth mentioning, is many cars have overdrive gears. These gears are basically for the road cars, and allow the cars to get a decent cruise speed fuel economy. The gears are way too tall to be of racing use though, since you don't need to worry about saving fuel in GT5P, then its a good idea to just pretend the overdrive gear isn't there and gear the car to be a 5speed instead.

 

[JDigital]

I guess I'll have to post the tune I'm talking about for it to really make sense, however I did get quicker with the tune I made. I think in this instance (clio on suzuka) it has to do with being in a nice torque range through the Ses in 4th letting you roll out of it much quicker and not have to shift until later (read, more acceleration time), and the hairpin puts your in peak torque in 2nd so you get out of it much quicker, also it seems that its in a more appropriate power range for a lot of the weak spots of the previous tune. Not to mention the raw acceleration is quicker so for the few straights you can hit a higher top speed and get to it much quicker...

What you guys are saying makes a lot of sense though for certain cars, but with the clio specifically it has a nice torque curve, and don't forget the HP plays a nice role as well.. torque isn't everything.

I've noticed the NSX-R is tuned similar and I'm pretty convinced I can get more out of it than the current "best" tune by completely re-doing the gears and using all 6. On a lot of cars with an economy last gear you can always really shorten the rear end and tune based on that to make the last gear pull well..

 

[The Outlaw]

BTW, one of the reason you may have been faster with the 6-speed versus the 5-speed set-up is because you were bogging down the 5-speed a bit too much through the corners. Meaning your cornering speeds weren't quite high enough with the 5-speed to keep the torque in the ideal range when powering out of the corner. With a perfect lap 13-14 second lap and higher cornering speeds you'll likely always be keeping the engine in its ideal torque curve.

 

[JDigital]

BTW, one of the reason you may have been faster with the 6-speed versus the 5-speed set-up is because you were bogging the down the 5-speed a bit too much through the corners. Meaning your cornering speeds weren't quite high enough with the 5-speed to keep the torque in the ideal range when powering out of the corner. With a perfect lap 13-14 second lap and higher cornering speeds you'll likely always be keeping the engine in its ideal torque curve.

Very good point, I know I need a lot of work because currently I can't even break 2:17, much less 2:14... It may just be that it helps me because I can't seem to get the speed that I need through certain sections of the track.

I would be interested in letting someone like yourself give the new tune a run and see if it improves your time... granted, I have built in a small buffer in the tune to allow it to make sense if I were to be faster through some sections.

Would be an interesting experiment.

 

[HaylRayzor]

I find that most 6-speed cars will not allow enough adjustment of the gears to set it up as I want with 6 speeds. So I wind up setting it as a 5-speed with useless 1st gear. I do it this way because many cars have a noticably longer delay in shifting from 1st to 2nd than for the other gears.

 

[JDigital]

no delay with G25 using a clutch...

 

[HaylRayzor]

no delay with G25 using a clutch...

While this is interesting it isn't useful to those of us who don't have, and don't plan to get, a G25.

 

[Ferrari_Tifoso]

Whenever I use one of the posted tunes, the first thing I do is redo the entire gearing, and instantly improve by .5 a sec just like the OP. I tune my gears to the HP curve, and to the corners. It's a compromise. Like in Suzuka I make sure I can take the end of "First Curve" all the way to the end of the "Esses" in one gear. On the higher gears I try to stay in the peak part of the HP curve as much as possible since their pretty much for WOT on the straights.

HP is basically telling when the engine is making the most power, or when torque multiplication is at it's highest. Why would you tune to torque alone? I also find that a lot of tuners make the gears longer and longer the higher you shift. Why? It should be the other way around. In the higher gears you're gonna be on the straights, and you definitely want to be in the peak HP range there. And for the lower gears you want them somewhat wide since they're for the corners, so max output isn't as important and shifting less in the corners is always a plus.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[JDigital]

Whenever I use one of the posted tunes, the first thing I do is redo the entire gearing, and instantly improve by .5 a sec just like the OP. I tune my gears to the HP curve, and to the corners. It's a compromise. Like in Suzuka I make sure I can take the end of "First Curve" all the way to the end of the "Esses" in one gear. On the higher gears I try to stay in the peak part of the HP curve as much as possible since their pretty much for WOT on the straights.

HP is basically telling when the engine is making the most power, or when torque multiplication is at it's highest. Why would you tune to torque alone? I also find that a lot of tuners make the gears longer and longer the higher you shift. Why? It should be the other way around. In the higher gears you're gonna be on the straights, and you definitely want to be in the peak HP range there. And for the lower gears you want them somewhat wide since they're for the corners, so max output isn't as important and shifting less in the corners is always a plus.

Just my 2 cents...

Exactly, I'm starting to think some tuners/people don't understand what HP and Torque really are... Torque is a measure of force, HP is a measure of power. Everyone talks torque torque torque but that's a bit oversimplifying. If it was only torque that mattered then a Dyno wouldn't even show horsepower...

At least someone understand what I'm getting at... I was starting to think I was a little crazy. After messing with the gearing a little more last night I've got the Clio driving like a bat out of hell, NSX's couldn't take me on straights and I had no problem overtaking on straights... that alone is a major improvement over the original tune where the clio was just a dog on the straights.

I'll probably post up the tune later tonight if I don't end up going out, I'd like to get some feedback on it from some fast drivers.

 

[The Outlaw]

Actually you guys are correct in regards to tuning the gears using the hp curve, instead of the torque curve. I did over simplify my explanation by only using torque as a basis for determining optimal gearing. As you mentioned, hp is simply a equation of torque and rpm, or force over time. So it is the more important factor in determining optimal gearing 👍

 

[NLxAROSA]

I'm wondering what laptimes you are achieving with your own tune as compared to the other tune you are referring to, JDigital?

 

[JDigital]

I'm wondering what laptimes you are achieving with your own tune as compared to the other tune you are referring to, JDigital?

With the previous tune (I believe it was the DC Clio tune, but don't quote me on it), I was doing pretty consistent 2:18:8xx.

On the second lap with the new tune I did a 2:18:3xx, then I got it to 2:18:1xx.

Last night I was playing around online so I don't count any of those laptimes because of slipstreaming and whatnot, however I did get it a little quicker. With a few more laps with this tune it should be an easy 2:17:8xx (i spun the wheels a few times coming out of corners).

I've never claimed I'm the fastest, but I did see a solid improvement, which makes me wonder what someone like TA who puts down 2:14's with the other clio tune would do with mine... mid-low 2:13's?

 

[zed300]

As you have stated, YOU are able to go faster with the changes made.
This may not directly transfer to another driver, who is able to drive 4-5 secs a lap quicker with the gear settings you have chosen.
You may find, as you drive faster, the gears that are already with the setup, may be more suited.

 

[Stevisiov]

I personally prefer to go with go with more gears than less, it give you a bit more control over your cornering. That said, its not necessarily quicker, just what I prefer.

 

[JDigital]

As you have stated, YOU are able to go faster with the changes made.
This may not directly transfer to another driver, who is able to drive 4-5 secs a lap quicker with the gear settings you have chosen.
You may find, as you drive faster, the gears that are already with the setup, may be more suited.

A faster car is a faster car... a better driver will be faster with a faster car, just as a lesser driver will be faster with a faster car.

You may find, if you quit acting like nothing could ever be improved, that I may be right, and the tune could be faster.


EDIT: Just because I'm not the fastest driver doesn't mean I don't know how to tune a fast car.

 

[Stevisiov]

I think Zed's point is that that different tunes suit different drivers (and yes that includes gear ratio's). How much you can get out of a car can affect your gear ratio, but more than anything preferences can make a difference.

Some people like tall 1st and second gears so that the throttle requires less modulation, some people like short first gears so that they have more control over the car, each of those may be just as quick setups but given to the wrong drivers will make the slower.

I don't think zed was trying to insult your driving, or at least I hope he wasn't.

 

[sesselpupser]

A faster car is a faster car... a better driver will be faster with a faster car, just as a lesser driver will be faster with a faster car.

Not quite! A technically faster car is a faster car, as in, a car with more power and torque will be faster than a car with less. A better driver will be able to handle the increased speed and therefore go faster, but a lesser driver may not cope so well; increased risk of spinning, wheelspin, under/oversteer, the list goes on and not everyone can cope with that and for that reason if you give a bad driver a car that's faster than they're used to, they're unlikely to go any quicker.

Then you (as you no doubt have) have to take into account the track you're driving on (a car tuned for London won't be any good on Fuji) and the driving style of the person it's tuned for (I tried a tune that made the Clio V6 Tuned 'a bit of a handful' according to the poster, I found it to be impossible to drive and so went faster when I tuned it myself). While you may find one tune makes you slower, another driver may find it works, maybe because of gear shift points, lines through corners, throttle control and your braking technique, or in other, simpler words, your driving technique and style.

I dunno, but I don't think you can ALWAYS say one car is definitely faster than another; you must have seen the videos on Youtube of AE86's racing much, much 'faster' metal and still winning? Just a case of having the right tool (car) for the job (track) and the user (driver).

This is just the way I see it, though. I also don't believe there's a good or bad way to drive, though, some drivers are smoother than others, some take risks... Look at what people have said about Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button, for example, they're both undoubtedly good (One's the Champion and one has won the last two GP's out of absolutely nowhere), but they're very different in style. Therefore, it's hard to tell someone they're a bad driver unless they ride walls, mow the trackside lawn and punt everyone.

Edit: You can pretty much ignore most of the second paragraph thanks to Stevisiov...

 

[NLxAROSA]

A faster car is a faster car... a better driver will be faster with a faster car, just as a lesser driver will be faster with a faster car.

Wrong. A lesser driver may go faster with a slower car because it is more forgivable. While a faster driver may get slower laptimes with the exact same tune, since he can drive at the limit. (neema_t explained this already) And don't take this stuff personal, if you're going to question people's tuning abilities, be prepared for some backlash (e.g. people questioning your abilities in return). We (at least I ) can take criticism, but only if it's properly argumented.

Note that some tuners (like me) tune for online consistency rather than hotlaps in free run, which is why they are popular for online use. And online there are more factors involved than just the racing line (as opposed to hotlapping). If tuned for hotlapping, you'd probably get a different setup.

Exactly, I'm starting to think some tuners/people don't understand what HP and Torque really are...

Don't make statements like this unless you are 100% sure what you are talking about and what the motives/goals of each individual tuner/tune are. Like said above and before me: there's more to tuning gears than just the HP and Torque graph. A true tuner understands this. There is a reason there were 4-speed gearboxes in a certain GTLM Tuner Showdown.

Don't forget to take into account you are not driving the tune at the limit and are still improving your laptimes. Don't mistake yourself getting better acquainted with the car for a better tune (one of the reasons I switch back and forth between tune and original settings while tuning). Not saying that you are, but this is something that is very common.

EDIT: Just because I'm not the fastest driver doesn't mean I don't know how to tune a fast car.

True, I myself have a hard time driving a consistent lap, but you can very well judge individual corners and how fast you can take them. 👍

That said: I always encourage people to modify a tune to their own preference. What is perfect for me might not be for you. There is no single 'one' solution or 'best'. Tuning is always a matter of finding a balance between factors. I think lots of people start with a premade tune and then adapt it to personal preference.

 

[JDigital]

Not quite! A technically faster car is a faster car, as in, a car with more power and torque will be faster than a car with less.

Not entirely, in an imaginary world where we have no physical size restraints, torque would not matter. Gearing has everything to do with true speed, not just torque and horsepower. In this imaginary world you'd be able to use 1ft/lb of torque to reach an infinite speed with inifinite gears. A gear multiplies the force of torque based on RPM. However in the real world we do have physical size limitations so there is a balance between everything. I could go more into depth on this but you are way oversimplifying. Basically, you are incorrect in the assumption that a faster car has to have more torque and HP. Incorrect. Even without taking weight/power ration into consideration.

Wrong. A lesser driver may go faster with a slower car because it is more forgivable. While a faster driver may get slower laptimes with the exact same tune, since he can drive at the limit. (neema_t explained this already) And don't take this stuff personal, if you're going to question people's tuning abilities, be prepared for some backlash (e.g. people questioning your abilities in return). We (at least I ) can take criticism, but only if it's properly argumented.

Also note that some tuners (like me) tune for online consistency rather than hotlaps in free run, which is why they are popular for online use. And online there are more factors involved than just the racing line (as opposed to hotlapping). If tuned for hotlapping, you'd probably get a different setup.

Don't make statements like this unless you are 100% sure what you are talking about and what the motives/goals of each individual tuner/tune are. Like said above and before me: there's more to tuning gears than just the HP and Torque graph. A true tuner understands this. There is a reason there were 4-speed gearboxes in a certain GTLM Tuner Showdown.

Don't forget to take into account you are not driving the tune at the limit and are still improving your laptimes. Don't mistake yourself getting better acquainted with the car for a better tune (one of the reasons I switch back and forth between tune and original settings while tuning). Not saying that you are, but this is something that is very common.

True, I myself have a hard time driving a consistent lap, but you can very well judge individual corners and how fast you can take them. 👍

That said: I always encourage people to modify a tune to their own preference. What is perfect for me might not be for you. There is no single 'one' solution or 'best'. Tuning is always a matter of finding a balance between factors.

Very well reasoned post. However, like stated previously, a lot of people do not understand torque and horsepower, like the above poster for instance.

I don't really see the point in going into the details of this post, I will tell you that you are assuming way too much.

The tune I made IS faster than the tune I started with. Plain and simple. Being as I have an extra gear in actual use, this allows me to have gears that multiply the torque by a much greater value, which results in more net power, I actually gained top speed as well due to the fact that the gears pull much harder, therefore you can attain a higher top speed in a shorter distance. This is the very definition of "faster" in a racing sense.

A persons inability to deliver the newfound power to the road effectively does not mean that the car is slower.

Once again, I know the tune is faster... that's not really up for debate. It is very simple physics.

 

[JDigital]

I'm going to post the tune up tonight for everyone to mess with. And I don't want to come off as I know more than the well-known tuners around here... that is not the point. In-fact, I love the suspension setup of the tune I modified, therefor I didn't even touch anything but the gearing. But truth be told, the gearing was underwhelming and not using the power of the car to its potential. Thus, I'm working on fixing that...


Also, after I changed the gearing, I have not lost a "drag-race" with the clio yet... I've went from 4th in the grid to first before the first turn at suzuka... that alone should say something.

Like I stated previously, Even NSX's couldn't take me on the straights and they are well known for taking the r1 clio's on the straights.


EDIT: A little note: this entire thread is based on the 550pp Suzuka event. Obviously a suzuka tune wouldn't be ideal for a HSR or something...

 

[Stevisiov]

Not entirely, in an imaginary world where we have no physical size restraints, torque would not matter. Gearing has everything to do with true speed, not just torque and horsepower.

Sure gearing has everything to do with full speed, I'm not denying the physics behind good gearing, just peoples ability to utilise gearing effectively in a racing scenario. Gearing essentially allows us to utilise torque and horsepower as effectively as possible. Certainly there are more effective ways than others however you appear to be suggesting there is some sort of exact science to it, when realistically, even gear ratio's are as subjective and personal to a driver as how stiff his springs are or how much wing he wants to run with. A tuner must always keep his driver in mind and that includes gear ratio's remember all the other factors relating to making the car quicker (not just in straight line speed) will affect how the gears are setup, and the biggest variable of all is the driver.

In this imaginary world you'd be able to use 1ft/lb of torque to reach an infinite speed with inifinite gears. A gear multiplies the force of torque based on RPM. However in the real world we do have physical size limitations so there is a balance between everything.

PD quite clearly programmed limitations to gearing, as imaginary as the world is, it has its limits. Quite how correctly the model is calibrated is debatable. I don't really see what your getting at here.

I could go more into depth on this but you are way oversimplifying. Basically, you are incorrect in the assumption that a faster car has to have more torque and HP. Incorrect. Even without taking weight/power ration into consideration.

I don't see anyone making such blanket statements as more power and torque always makes a car faster, I don't think anyone is trying to claim that.

I don't really see the point in going into the details of this post, I will tell you that you are assuming way too much.

Ironically I think your assuming too little, I think your playing down the driver factor too little, assuming that a faster car, is faster for all people.

The tune I made IS faster than the tune I started with. Plain and simple.

I am certainly not going to argue that you can tune a car to be faster than another, and that even with different drivers one can be concluded as faster than the other, however you are still oversimplifying things. (the irony)

Being as I have an extra gear in actual use, this allows me to have gears that multiply the torque by a much greater value, which results in more net power, I actually gained top speed as well due to the fact that the gears pull much harder, therefore you can attain a higher top speed in a shorter distance. This is the very definition of "faster" in a racing sense.

No I completely disagree, you ran through the physics but missed the important factors. If you want to apply physics to justify your statement at least make sure you include the whole physics.

More gears isn't always faster, CVT's are a testement to that, but that's far from the physics I am getting at. I understand what point your trying to make: 'By using more gears your are using the 'better part' of the power band, thus its stands to reason more acceleration and faster speed down the straight'.

However you have completely neglected gear changing times. If you had 1000 gears, you would be at almost the peak part of the powerband all of the time, so you would be faster on the straight right? by your logic yes, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that that's a hell of a lot of gear changes which would really slow you. You loose a fair bit of time changing gear, if you loose more time changing gear, than you would loose from not being perfectly in the powerband, then its not worth having the extra gear.

There are a few main factors which effect this (which you haven't addressed).

Gear change time, if your car has an F1 gearbox then having loads of gears is less of a problem since it changes in a blink of an eye. Such little time is lost changing gears that the benefit of being in a better part of the powerband will make your car quicker down the straight. On the same token, if the car isn't particularly quick at changing gears (that includes manuals) then expect to loose a fair bit of time changing gears.

Also, having a broader power/torque curve gives you a far more usable powerband, thus being in slightly lower revs is less of a problem. Having less gears and achieving the same top speed means more spaced gears, which means you will drop to lower revs when changing gears, if you have a narrow power band this is costly, if you have a broad powerband you can get away with it, you won't loose much time, as such it might not be worth having that extra gear change which will loose you time.

That is why people where bringing up torque and power, not because they think it solves all your problems but beceause its key to consider when tuning gears. Clearly something you missed, so in future perhaps less of the nonsense about people not understanding torque, power, gears when you don't appear to know all the fundamentals, it comes across as hypocritical.

A persons inability to deliver the newfound power to the road effectively does not mean that the car is slower.

Yes, yes it does, the car is only as quick as its driver. ALWAYS. If a tuner doesn't consider its drivers ability then they may inadvertently hinder them rather than making it faster, just because its faster for one person doesn't mean its faster for everyone, I keep saying that and with good reason. I know a certain D1 gold 'Alien', who makes his own tunes, they are quicker for him than my tunes, however I have a different driving style (too slow ) and it makes me even slower, I am much better at my own, and yes, that includes my own gearing.

Once again, I know the tune is faster... that's not really up for debate. It is very simple physics.

It doesn't matter how many times you state it, if its wrong its wrong. Your car is probably much quicker, even for most people, but that isn't always the case.

Also, after I changed the gearing, I have not lost a "drag-race" with the clio yet... I've went from 4th in the grid to first before the first turn at suzuka... that alone should say something.

Your physics knowledge should tell you all you need to know about how narrowminded that statement is, given that once again (hypocritically) your oversimplify. There are tonnes of factors that affect a drag to the first corner, biggest of all being weight and tyres, trying to claim its all down to your gearing is simply ludicrous.

Like I stated previously, Even NSX's couldn't take me on the straights and they are well known for taking the r1 clio's on the straights.

I am sorry, but gearing doesn't make that much difference unless you are comparing against someone who made a complete hash of it. The difference between good and excellent gearing is hard to tell over just one straight alone. I don't buy it.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Yes, yes it does, the car is only as quick as its driver. ALWAYS.

Exactly. A tune is only as fast as a driver can take it. If a tune is faster for a less skilled driver and slower for a skilled driver, is it faster or slower? Same for the other way around: If a skilled driver can lose .5 seconds with a certain tune, but less skilled drivers can't keep it on the track, is it faster or slower? It depends on the context, so the result is always relative, never absolute. So depending on the context, a tune can be both faster and slower.

On the other side: in a single given context you can definitely determine if one tune is faster than the other (e.g. in your personal situation, one tune will be faster than the other).

 

[JDigital]

I'm busy as hell at work so I'll give a much more elaborate post later, however I never said the car was faster for EVERYONE, I said it is faster. Which it is. This can be proven with basic math.

 

[JDigital]

And furthermore I already said I was going to post the tune tonight, why don't we wait and see if the proof is in the pudding?

There's a lot of miscommunication in this thread really, we're talking about two different angles. I'm talking about the machine as it is, being faster than another machine. Driver abilities completely left out of the equation. Which is why earlier in the thread I mentioned that we need some fast drivers to give it a try and see if it improves their times also.


EDIT:
Removed, read wrong name to wrong post.

 

[Hyper-Dan]

And furthermore I already said I was going to post the tune tonight, why don't we wait and see if the proof is in the pudding?

There's a lot of miscommunication in this thread really, we're talking about two different angles. I'm talking about the machine as it is, being faster than another machine. Driver abilities completely left out of the equation. Which is why earlier in the thread I mentioned that we need some fast drivers to give it a try and see if it improves their times also.


EDIT:
Removed, read wrong name to wrong post.

Furthermore, please use the edit button instead of double posting.

👍