Will General Motors declare bankruptcy?

[MrktMkr1986]

Well, look at it this way: If there was no UAW, the U.S. government would have to step in to take over UAW's job of keeping the unions together and fair. And that is really not a good alternative to the UAW. All the U.S. would do is raise taxes on imports to protect GM and Ford (at least in America), and that does horrible things to car companies.

Not quite. The US government would not raise taxes with the current administration. Rather, they would cut services.

I read something interesting today. Apparently, the board of directors in contemplating the idea of sacking Rick Wagoner.

Time for some "fresh" management.

I didn't know Wagoner made GM worse off than it was. I was under the impression, set forth by Motor Trend, that he was the Chritstian saint of all holiness and that he was turining GM around.
Article

Motor Trend et al are heavily influenced by advertisers. So I've heard...

Rick Wagoner is a bastard and so are his kids, I used to know his kids because he lived next door to one of my good friends. I really hate that man, along with Jim Queen and Bob Lutz is a crabby old man.

So I guess new management wouldn't be a bad idea after all.

 

[Joey D]

High management yes, middle magament no. My boss is wonderful and so is his boss. I love working for those guys.

Bob Lutz isn't a bad guy, just crabby. Jim Queen pissed me off when he leveled a hugh parking lot in order to build a garden so he didn't have to look at cars out his office window, and Rickey is just a bastard. He has good ideas, but I just don't like him as a person.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

High management yes, middle magament no.

Understand that when I refer to "management" in general I'm talking exclusively about high management, board of directors etc. I'd never pick on middle management. You should know that by now!

My boss is wonderful and so is his boss. I love working for those guys.

Nice to hear.

Bob Lutz isn't a bad guy, just crabby.

Maybe he has a lot on his mind.

Jim Queen pissed me off when he leveled a hugh parking lot in order to build a garden so he didn't have to look at cars out his office window,

Where did the money come from?

and Rickey is just a bastard. He has good ideas, but I just don't like him as a person.

That's enough of a reason to get someone ousted.

 

[Joey D]

Understand that when I refer to "management" in general I'm talking exclusively about high management, board of directors etc. I'd never pick on middle management. You should know that by now!

Gotcha but some of the upper management is decent. I can't remember all their names, but I have met them all since they all work above me in the tower. Hell my girlfriends dad is even upper management at GM, but he's ahead of some Chinese group.

Where did the money come from?

Christ only knows, but he did this back a while ago when GM had deep pockets.

That's enough of a reason to get someone ousted.

A lot of people like him, I just don't because I know him on a personal level instead of a business level, which isn't good.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Blazin, you do realize your arguing with someone who thinks that he should be able to waltz in & buy .01% (if that) of a company, and have equal power with someone who owns 50% ---- please, for the sake of all that is sacred to yourself ( & your ignorant media-friendly I wish sexes were equal on all aspects ways) stop substantiating his unbelievably absurd argument with return fire

P.S. -- Props to all who are trying to tell me women can play in the NFL.....(you did call me sexest for saying sexes have differant abilities)

P.S.S. - Blazin -- your sure do know everybody, I mean, not only do you work for GM (supposedly), & helped design the new ZO6 (or whatever your claim is) you also know Rick Wagoneer!! congrats!!
how's Donny Trump?
anything you don't or can't do? or anyone you don't know?

 

[Young_Warrior]

You guys crack me up. Isnt it amusing how they can call us stupid and such but if we were to do it they tell us to stop, not that I have called anyone stupid.

Anyway lets get tough now.

Audi 6.0 W8 engine is more enviromentally friendly than the 4.3 in blazings truck. So yeah blazing you were wrong.

OK... this is getting irritating. Men and women have equal driving abilities from start to finish.

Not true... Lets look at wolrd of motorsports. How many woman actually ever become champions? And woman havent got the same driving capabilities as woman are nowhere as strong as men. You guys do realise that as a man we are over twice as strong as the opposite sex, and we have alot more stamina. Men are better drivers in teh fact that woman are physically challenged. Oh and woman are shorter.

So given a small car with a easy cluth break and light steering they are good drivers but anything thats a bit more of a handful and woman will have trouble.

Next you guys will try and tell me that woman can run just as fast as men.

On what possible information, other than hearing your father repeat the same tired cliches, are you basing this revelation?

Talking about cliches what your saying is a cliches itself. No I havnet heard my dad say woman cant drive as well but just think about all the air head woman you know and lets think about it. Most woman arent as mentally strong as men and most cant even catch a tennis ball when you throw it at them. And you just have to look around and tehre is actually a statistics that woman have more little dings which arent worth notifying your insurance companies about. And most woman only drive to pick up their kids, go shopping aor drive to work. Men drive for fun.

Psssh my girlfriend can probably out drive me, you guys are idiots.

I find your medieval notion of men and women quite interesting.

I agree with leadsled. Woman are not physically capable to do everything men can. The amount of laws out there biased towards woman to try and level things out are phenomanal in the fact that woman have alot more power than men in this day and age.

If woman want equality they shoudl get rid of some of the silly anti-male laws starting with the one in which woman can stop biological fathers from seeing their kids if they wish.

We as citizens own the country.

Tell that to the native americans.

The rich and powerful own the country.

And I have yet to see many arguments were Y_W has much of a reasoned debate to offer

Really. Well first you guys said SUV's werent any worse than cars when it came to emissions and I proved you guys wrong.

Then you guys said you need a SUV to tow things such as boats and motorbikes which I then proved you guys wrong.

Then you guys said you need a SUV to go through the snow and mud which I then proved you guys wrong yet again.

And now im proving you wrong writing this.

Lol! I bet a 540 Sport Wagon would destroy an X5 in any handling test! And it costs less! And it's faster!

Yeah nice one but thats not a SUV and it wouldnt destroy an X5 at all. If you were to lower the X5 it would probably win. But two can play that game. For £10,000 I can get a caterham which will destroy any american car ever built when it comes to handling.

It takes two to tango baby

 

[Joey D]

P.S.S. - Blazin -- your sure do know everybody, I mean, not only do you work for GM (supposedly), & helped design the new ZO6 (or whatever your claim is) you also know Rick Wagoneer!! congrats!!
how's Donny Trump?
anything you don't or can't do? or anyone you don't know?

It's not hard to meet people at GM when you work with them. I work in the mock-up area again, plus when you are an intern they have you meet everyone. But I knew Rick before I started working at GM, well I knew his kids, but I ended up meeting him.

But yes I don't work for GM, technically I'm employed through Troy Designs, but I work at GM and I get pay checks from them and what not.

On the new Z06 I designed a braket, nothing more, I just got to play around with the test team for a month or so. I'm an intern, they let me do that stuff. GM interns just get their foot in the door, nothing more. You get to do some fun stuff, but most of the time I work. However I'm done in 3 weeks.

But honestly if you don't believe me, I'm not going to stay awake at night worrying about it.

Audi 6.0 W8 engine is more enviromentally friendly than the 4.3 in blazings truck. So yeah blazing you were wrong.

You have still failed to prove to me this. Plus according to the Audi website, the W12 is a 6.0L.

Well first you guys said SUV's werent any worse than cars when it came to emissions and I proved you guys wrong.

Actually you haven't, I'm yet to see hard data from you.

Then you guys said you need a SUV to tow things such as boats and motorbikes which I then proved you guys wrong.

Show me an Audi that can pull this...

Then you guys said you need a SUV to go through the snow and mud which I then proved you guys wrong yet again.

Show me an Audi that can do this...

 

[VIPFREAK]

but but... how many people do that... and that... ?

 

[Joey D]

Quite a few people I know have boats that size or bigger, you must remember I come from a wealthy area so stuff like that is not uncommon.

As for off roading, I have a few friends that do it, they all own Jeeps.

But Y_W told me that I can do all of that with a car, I'm just curious to see a car do that. And yes that truck pulling the boat is modified, but you can clearly see the ass of the truck squating under the weight, I'd like to see that hooked up to a car.

No the truck off roading isn't modded at all, and for the sake of arguement, I even picked a Japanese SUV.

 

[Jay]

but you can clearly see the ass of the truck squating under the weight

Which is odd as that boat isnt even all that big.

 

[Joey D]

I would say that's a pretty big boat, it looks to be a little bigger then the one my family has. I don't know maybe that model is just fat that is sitting on the boat.

 

[Jay]

I would say that's a pretty big boat, it looks to be a little bigger then the one my family has. I don't know maybe that model is just fat that is sitting on the boat.

It cant be all that big as the trailers tyres arnt all that heavy duty, my familys boat trailer tyres have trouble with the weight and there rated as light truck tyres.

 

[194GVan]

Blazin, you do realize your arguing with someone....

The only people that come in here looking for an argument is you and Young Warrior. Looks to me like they are having a friendly debate, not trying to make the other person look like an ass, which is what happens when you two try to throw in your two cents. 👎 I get sick of it on a daily basis and have to restrain myself from violating the TOS here, but you guys seem to be a tag team that tip-toes around the rules and just flat out enjoy lighting fires under peoples asses. It will be a happy day when I can read through a thread and not have to dig through 3 pages of bull**** that you two stirred up. Good day sirs.

 

[Duke]

You guys crack me up. Isnt it amusing how they can call us stupid and such but if we were to do it they tell us to stop, not that I have called anyone stupid.

Where did I call anyone stupid? All I said is that you don't often put forth very reasoned arguments.

You don't, so I jump on you. When you do put forth reasoned arguments, do I jump on you? No. Where am I wrong?

Anyway lets get tough now.

Let's see it.

Audi 6.0 W8 engine is more enviromentally friendly than the 4.3 in blazings truck. So yeah blazing you were wrong.

Prove it.

Not true... Lets look at wolrd of motorsports. How many woman actually ever become champions?

Ever heard of Janet Guthrie? Shirley Muldowney? Danica Patrick? Sarah Fisher? Katherine Legge? What about GTP's own ViXeN? She'll kick your ass in a real car, on a real race track.

So given a small car with a easy cluth break and light steering they are good drivers but anything thats a bit more of a handful and woman will have trouble.

Talking about cliches what your saying is a cliches itself. No I havnet heard my dad say woman cant drive as well but just think about all the air head woman you know and lets think about it. Most woman arent as mentally strong as men and most cant even catch a tennis ball when you throw it at them.

Where do you get this crap? Honestly. Prove it.

And you just have to look around and tehre is actually a statistics that woman have more little dings which arent worth notifying your insurance companies about.

Prove it.

And most woman only drive to pick up their kids, go shopping aor drive to work. Men drive for fun.

Prove it.

Here's a clue: what you posted above is NOT a reasoned, well-supported argument. If you think it is, no wonder your posts are like they are.

If woman want equality they shoudl get rid of some of the silly anti-male laws starting with the one in which woman can stop biological fathers from seeing their kids if they wish.

Ummm, OK. Show me this "law". And if you've read any of my posts on the Op board, you know I also dislike Affirmatifve Action in all forms.

Really. Well first you guys said SUV's werent any worse than cars when it came to emissions and I proved you guys wrong.

No, you didn't prove it. You said it. You did not show a single shred of evidence to back it up.

Then you guys said you need a SUV to tow things such as boats and motorbikes which I then proved you guys wrong.

No, you didn't prove it. What people do with cars and what they are meant to do with cars are two entirely different things. Frankly I don't give a crap about some anecdote about what somebody towed with a 1.6 litre Mazda. He himself admitted the car was abused. He told a tale about towing the caravan with an overloaded econo car. Care to place any bets on how safe that was? Care to talk about what it did to the clutch and brakes? Care to talk about the stopping distance on a downgrade, or from 50 mph? Again, what people make cars do and what they are designed to do are entirely different things.

Audi doesn't list any towing capacity for the A8 on their website. It starts at almost US$ 70,000 and goes up rapidly from there. Tell me again how practical this car would be to tow my boat or caravan.

Then you guys said you need a SUV to go through the snow and mud which I then proved you guys wrong yet again.

No, you didn't prove anybody wrong, and regardless, that's not what Blazin said anyway. What he said was that you needed an SUV to go off-road. Again, if this is what you think of as a "reasoned reply" it's no wonder your posts are so inane.

And now im proving you wrong writing this.

I think your dictionary is broken. Go look up "prove". I don't think that word means what you think it means.


[edit] For the record, I did not ban Young_Warrior. It was done by one of the non-American modertors with the unanimous support of the rest of the staff. See the Banned Users Log for an explanation.

 

[Dave A]

And rallies = Mud, rocks, dust, cold, heat snow, standing water and rain. Dont try and say that off road driving isnt done by rally cars. You must either not know much about rally driving or think that were dumb.

How was this not quoted, kind of pointless replying to it now since he's been banned but telling somone who's right that they're wrong and calling them dumb for it certainly raises question marks on his age and intelligence, not that there wasn't any before that post.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Tell me if I'm getting this right: you guys actually think that most people with trucks & SUV's use them for more than car duty?? seriously?
you can show all the pictures you want, hell, I can show you pictures of some people I know off-roading, but that doesnt change the fact that most people with Trucks & SUV's don't use them for anything more than car duty --- hope it was all a joke

I don't agree with everything YW says about women, however there are plenty of differences between men & women & plenty of laws in favor of women as well....anybody (like blazin) who calls me sexist for saying that, is clearly ignorant.

I guess my question for blazin really is, since he stated at the top of this page, how much he loves his job, his boss's are great......yadayadayada...so forth, why are you quitting?
and if you have so much neat things going on in your life, why are you on a video game website so much? If my life was as great as you say yours is, I wouldnt likely have the time... so, forgive me if I think some things you say arent true, or are embellished
but I too have to decide whether I should believe things people on here say, and everybody swears its true -- don't worry though, I sleep good too

Duke: YW would never (nor would I if I was in his position) see your point with good & bad arguments...clearly he thinks all of his arguments are legit, otherwise he wouldnt be arguing them....

Quote: Duke
Not true... Lets look at wolrd of motorsports. How many woman actually ever become champions?
Ever heard of Janet Guthrie? Shirley Muldowney? Danica Patrick? Sarah Fisher? Katherine Legge? What about GTP's own ViXeN? She'll kick your ass in a real car, on a real race track.

While I am not 100% sure...I don't believe any of these women have won championships....after all, that was the question....

Edit: why is this thread so far off topic? I didnt see most of it, but the only thing I've seen is 2 people arguing over the stock market (that even closely resembles GM and bankruptcy)

 

[Dave A]

As far as I can tell Duke's been backing up SUV's and trucks ect for what they're built for, not for what they're used for. As the end of the day if I see a guy driving an SUV I don't care if he's using it to pose or not, at the end of the day I can go through my village and see on average 5 posers in Audi TT's, I can see maybe 2 Ferrari's again with posers in the seats and a handful of Porsches, again driven by posers. Why is a guy who's posing in a truck suddenly worse than you're average Audi TT or Porsche Boxster owner? The answer is they arn't, if someone wan't to buy a truck to pose in, let them they arn't doing me any harm, if they drive like assholes with me around then they are, but anyone can be like that, boy racers are the worst for that, not truck drivers. Whichever way you look at it, SUV and truck drivers are no worse than any other drivers and SUV's and trucks arn't to blame if a poser buy's one.

 

[Swift]

I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but one of the main reasons GM is having problems is that they are paying and incredible amount of salary and health benifits to people that DON'T work for them.

$1,500 of every new GM car goes to Health Insurance for the employees and retirees. If they could cut that down, they might start to see some like at the end of the tunnel.

That and getting there mid size sedans to the level of the camry and accord.

 

[194GVan]

<deleted> post edit

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Live 4speed, I don't think the argument was about people posing...I think it was more about the general crappiness of SUV's & trucks unless they're being purposfully used...a poser in boxster driving 3-5000 mi in a year is far less than a "poser" (I would point my finger at people who buy suv's when their wife or girlfriend gets pregnant because they could need it 7 years down the road) driving 10-15000 mi a year is different....& it is a legit complaint when you understand that the more gasoline that is consumed, the more money comes out of my pocket for gass in my 30mpg car, so yes, if someone has a problem with people needlessly spending fuel like that, I certainly can't say that they are wrong for that...and if you think about it yourself, you'll see that there is a legit point being made... like I said before, the average car (includes trucks & SUV's on the road today gets 17.4 mpg (give or take a tiny bit) - and when I compare that to what the average Car can get, it's pretty darned sad... & I'm paying 2.30$$$ a gallon partially because of it

 

[Joey D]

I guess my question for blazin really is, since he stated at the top of this page, how much he loves his job, his boss's are great......yadayadayada...so forth, why are you quitting?

So I can finish my college degree, so I can actually go out into the real world and get a job. I need a college degree don't I?

and if you have so much neat things going on in your life, why are you on a video game website so much? If my life was as great as you say yours is, I wouldnt likely have the time... so, forgive me if I think some things you say arent true, or are embellished

Uhhhh because I need something to occupy my time. I have nice things but it doesn't mean I use them every waking minute. Plus I'm at work and I need something to do from time to time.

I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but one of the main reasons GM is having problems is that they are paying and incredible amount of salary and health benifits to people that DON'T work for them.

Yes the retired UAW workers

$1,500 of every new GM car goes to Health Insurance for the employees and retirees. If they could cut that down, they might start to see some like at the end of the tunnel.

You know how many more problems that would cause?

 

[Dave A]

Live 4speed, I don't think the argument was about people posing...I think it was more about the general crappiness of SUV's & trucks unless they're being purposfully used...a poser in boxster driving 3-5000 mi in a year is far less than a "poser" (I would point my finger at people who buy suv's when their wife or girlfriend gets pregnant because they could need it 7 years down the road) driving 10-15000 mi a year is different....& it is a legit complaint when you understand that the more gasoline that is consumed, the more money comes out of my pocket for gass in my 30mpg car, so yes, if someone has a problem with people needlessly spending fuel like that, I certainly can't say that they are wrong for that...and if you think about it yourself, you'll see that there is a legit point being made... like I said before, the average car (includes trucks & SUV's on the road today gets 17.4 mpg (give or take a tiny bit) - and when I compare that to what the average Car can get, it's pretty darned sad... & I'm paying 2.30$$$ a gallon partially because of it

Well if it's fuel efficiency your arguing over go complain to sportscar and supercar buyers, the fact you can transport only 1 passenger (generally) and get similar or less fuel efficiency is what you're argument should be. But don't start *****ing about fuel prices because you've got it made.

If it's not that then it's people getting SUV's to look cool, I can tell you now, not many people buy Audi TT's for the driving experience, not many round here at least buy Boxsters for that either, they buy them to pose in. I can relate to people buying a vehicle to pose in because I see it around here so much.

At the end of the day you'll either buy a car for practical puropese or things the car was designed to do like go fast, or you'll buy it to pose in or most of the time it's a bit of both, what other reason is there to buy a car, as an ornament? Well I suppose if it's an Aston Martin.......

 

[Swift]

You know how many more problems that would cause?

Yep, it just might save the company!

I understand that the unions had some pretty high levels of compensation. But that's just rediculous. The Japanese companies aren't dealiing wit h that kind of budget breaking drain on the company, so why should GM? It's time to cut there losses. They'd be better of doing that then folding as a company then the current employees lose everything as well. How fair would that be?

 

[Joey D]

Well you see the UAW has GM by the balls, if GM messes with any UAW policy then they are going to be in a world of crap.

Granted if there was a was to make the UAW go poof with no problems then everything would be good.

 

[Duke]

LeadSlead, in fact, I don't support the way most people use SUVs. For the most part a minivan will handle the job most SUVs are asked to do, more efficiently, and with a cheaper cost to buy. Search this board for posts by me that include the word 'minivan' and you'll see what I've contended for a long time.

The reason I came out backing Blazin here is that Y_W kept insisting how he had proven everyone wrong, when he had done nothing of the sort. In fact he had not proven anything; he had simply made bald, unsupported, and frequently incorrect statements and then considered that as "proof". BX has much more thought, reasoning, and factual support on his side.

 

[Swift]

Well you see the UAW has GM by the balls, if GM messes with any UAW policy then they are going to be in a world of crap.

Granted if there was a was to make the UAW go poof with no problems then everything would be good.

And this is why when a union gets too powerful it can cause it's own destruction.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Edit: why is this thread so far off topic? I didnt see most of it, but the only thing I've seen is 2 people arguing over the stock market (that even closely resembles GM and bankruptcy)

FYI: The stock market and stockholder voting rights have EVERYTHING to do with General Motors and a possible bankruptcy.

The Japanese companies aren't dealiing wit h that kind of budget breaking drain on the company, so why should GM?

... and ...

And this is why when a union gets too powerful it can cause it's own destruction.

Time to analyze the income statements of Toyota and GM:

*all annual figures are based on the period ended Dec 31, 2004 (GM) and Mar 31, 2005 (TM)*

Revenues: Toyota = $172.7 billion; GM = $193.5 billion

So far it looks like GM is selling more than enough cars, trucks, and loans...

Cost of Goods: Toyota = $138.5 billion; GM = $160 billion

As revenues rise, so too should the cost of goods. Toyota's gross margin is 19.8%. GM's is 17.3%... close enough.

GM spent $20.4 billion on operating expenses, TM "only" $18.7 billion...

So far everything seems fine.

This is where things go wrong:

Toyota's interest expense amounts to $177 million...
GM's interest expense? $12 billion

GM relied too heavily on borrowing and the end results are clear...

In response to Anthony's claim about budget breaking:

Toyota paid out $6.1 billion in income taxes during this period. General Motors received tax credits totalling $911 million.

You can't pin everything on the union's salaries and benefits -- management's decision to borrow more than the company is worth is a major factor as well.

 

[Swift]

This is where things go wrong:

Toyota's interest expense amounts to $177 million...
GM's interest expense? $12 billion

GM relied too heavily on borrowing and the end results are clear...

In response to Anthony's claim about budget breaking:

Toyota paid out $6.1 billion in income taxes during this period. General Motors received tax credits totalling $911 million.

You can't pin everything on the union's salaries and benefits -- management's decision to borrow more than the company is worth is a major factor as well.

No argument here. What I was saying is just another factor that GM is suffering from that Most other automakers aren't. As you put into your analysis.

It's really scary to see they make so much money and are STILL in the red. That's just poor management.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I would be willing to bet the farm (if I had one) that GM would not be in this predicament if they paid their workers the same rate as toyota - both in salary & benefits
Toyota has had great success, but comparing these two companys in effciency is like apples & watermelons --- why? because the whole world knows that labor is cheaper just about anywhere (if not everywhere) than America

 

[Tornado]

I would be willing to bet the farm (if I had one) that GM would not be in this predicament if they paid their workers the same rate as toyota - both in salary & benefits
Toyota has had great success, but comparing these two companys in effciency is like apples & watermelons --- why? because the whole world knows that labor is cheaper just about anywhere (if not everywhere) than America

While that is a very valid claim, it forgoes one fact proven over and over by multiple magazines: Toyota and GM both sell cars. Toyota sells cars that are a whole hell of a lot better, and regardless of whether Toyota's cost less for more (which most of them really don't), or whether it's cheaper to build cars in U.S. or not (which it isn't cheap), Toyota's are time and time again better cars, and by the time GM or Ford strike back with a new model, Toyota (and Honda) is already a step ahead. No amount of brand loyalty or patriotism will forgo that simple fact, because (ignoring the fact that Toyota builds most of their current cars in the U.S. anyways), it's a little extreme if you refuse to buy a carjust because it's built by a foreign make, even if they are imported.
Also not helping is the fact that up until recently (and I'm not completely sure of this), many GM cars for the American market were built in Canada, which does have national healthcare and benefits.