Will General Motors declare bankruptcy?

[a6m5]

Still there is Ford influence, if it wasn't for Ford then Mazda wouldn't be remotely as big as it is now. Trust me there is Ford influnces in Mazda.

Mazda blew it big time in the 90's and almost went belly up. If it wasn't for the financial support from Ford, Mazda would've been in a big trouble.

if you love them so, how could possibly think those cars were better? wouldnt you love them then?

Blazin' already answered it for me, but I tend to love many things, not just the elite. When I came to the States in '87, Grand Am was one of the cars I thought were really good looking, and dreamt of owning. Great thing about Grand Am is that since those 80's models, they kept the same design cues even to this day! You look at last gen Grand Am or G6(or whatever they changed it to) and you can still clearly tell that it's a Grand Am. Beautiful cars. 👍

what I'm simply saying is, nobody has ever given a reason for saying the Japanese cars are better (other than interior quality) which is crap to me --- plus people have a habit of driving top-model Japanese & base model American -then comparing the two

And my experience would be the exact opposite. As far as my experience go, during the 90's, more American cars had extra options/features, more base cars tend to be Japanese. American quality has improved so much, but if I look at '98 Taurus or Grand Am, level of quality is comparable Mitsubishi's if you are lucky. And yes, I've driven them.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

quality.......ahhh yes the thing no one ever describes... just a suttle way of saying because... without giving any real reason... what has more quality? I'll need specific things to ever have a chance of comprehending...(assuming its really true)

durability.... I can't remember the last time I saw an old Honda that wasnt spewing smoke like a locamotive...maybe an exxageration but based on reality....
anyways, I have personally owned 2 80's GM cars with over 180,000 miles on them, both worked perfectly fine though, my brother had a 90 oldsmobile with 150,000 that ran like new... & that same brother has a 93 Firebird with 175.000 miles on it & just now replaced the tranny (not bad for a car that runs 13.6 @ 109 with bald 245 tires) all with simple bolt-ons too... so please forgive me if I dont jump on the bandwagon of American cars break a lot, and Japanese crs are bllet proof

 

[Joey D]

quality.......ahhh yes the thing no one ever describes... just a suttle way of saying because... without giving any real reason... what has more quality? I'll need specific things to ever have a chance of comprehending...(assuming its really true)

Quality = how many problems the car has during it's life time. The better the quality, the less problems you will have with the car.

durability.... I can't remember the last time I saw an old Honda that wasnt spewing smoke like a locamotive...maybe an exxageration but based on reality....

My mom's old Toyota had something like 290,000 miles on it when we sold it, and it was still driving strong, just needed a clutch.

My buddy has a 1993 Civic with over 300,000 miles on it (the odometer quit working) and it still runs. Not the best, but it still goes.

However its all about care of the car from the owners. Plus if you see a crappy old Honda, it's going to be owned by some punk kid who spent 500 bucks on a car.

anyways, I have personally owned 2 80's GM cars with over 180,000 miles on them, both worked perfectly fine though, my brother had a 90 oldsmobile with 150,000 that ran like new... & that same brother has a 93 Firebird with 175.000 miles on it & just now replaced the tranny (not bad for a car that runs 13.6 @ 109 with bald 245 tires) all with simple bolt-ons too... so please forgive me if I dont jump on the bandwagon of American cars break a lot, and Japanese crs are bllet proof

I never said that, I usally am on the 'go American car' bandwagon. But back in the mid 90's American cars had some problems.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

the problem I have here, is since most people who buy American cars sell them way before their times up (all cars really) what tells me that the oldsmobile in the junkyard with 165000 miles is done? maybe somebody just didnt like it. I junked both of mine, neither was finished, it was just cheaper and easier to junk them, since nobody will give you jacks*** for an American car that needs 120$ to drive... but they will pay 500$ for a honda that needs 250$ to drive...why? it's all in a name & a general type of owner/buyer

 

[a6m5]

quality.......ahhh yes the thing no one ever describes... just a suttle way of saying because... without giving any real reason... what has more quality? I'll need specific things to ever have a chance of comprehending...(assuming its really true)

durability.... I can't remember the last time I saw an old Honda that wasnt spewing smoke like a locamotive...maybe an exxageration but based on reality....
anyways, I have personally owned 2 80's GM cars with over 180,000 miles on them, both worked perfectly fine though, my brother had a 90 oldsmobile with 150,000 that ran like new... & that same brother has a 93 Firebird with 175.000 miles on it & just now replaced the tranny (not bad for a car that runs 13.6 @ 109 with bald 245 tires) all with simple bolt-ons too... so please forgive me if I dont jump on the bandwagon of American cars break a lot, and Japanese crs are bllet proof

I'm very happy that those cars last that long for you. What most people don't realize is that if you take a good care of a car, Japanese or American, it should last a long time. Only problem is, I hear these "hundred thousand miles" story from way more Japanese car owners(granted, 80-90% Toyotas) than American car owners. Even Toyotas and Hondas will fall apart fast, if you abuse it and don't maintain it. And no, they are not bulletproof(except the Corollas ).

 

[Joey D]

the problem I have here, is since most people who buy American cars sell them way before their times up (all cars really) what tells me that the oldsmobile in the junkyard with 165000 miles is done? maybe somebody just didnt like it. I junked both of mine, neither was finished, it was just cheaper and easier to junk them, since nobody will give you jacks*** for an American car that needs 120$ to drive... but they will pay 500$ for a honda that needs 250$ to drive...why? it's all in a name & a general type of owner/buyer

You are telling me things I already know, you forget I work for GM, I know full well their line of automobiles. But people are going to buy a Honda over a GM no matter what, face it.

 

[Joey D]

I'm very happy that those cars last that long for you. What most people don't realize is that if you take a good care of a car, Japanese or American, it should last a long time. Only problem is, I hear these "hundred thousand miles" story from way more Japanese car owners(granted, 80-90% Toyotas) than American car owners. Even Toyotas and Hondas will fall apart fast, if you abuse it and don't maintain it. And no, they are not bulletproof(except the Corollas ).

Actually the Corolla was names the most unsafe car in 2006 by Forbes .

 

[a6m5]

the problem I have here, is since most people who buy American cars sell them way before their times up (all cars really) what tells me that the oldsmobile in the junkyard with 165000 miles is done? maybe somebody just didnt like it.

A lot of times, cars become cheaper to replace than to fix. Parts and labors are expensive, parts become obsolete.

I junked both of mine, neither was finished, it was just cheaper and easier to junk them, since nobody will give you jacks*** for an American car that needs 120$ to drive... but they will pay 500$ for a honda that needs 250$ to drive...why? it's all in a name & a general type of owner/buyer

That's true. But Civic is more popular than say.... Cavalier. I can see why people would pay extra for used Civic.

Edit:

Actually the Corolla was names the most unsafe car in 2006 by Forbes .

That's OK, Corollas usually top out around 45mph(XRS will do 55), so the worst you can do is a fender bender. 👍

 

[LeadSlead#2]

the fact that you've heard more stories about imports with many miles on them backs my point, speaking of all this, I know a guy who has an 84 jetta diesel... hes all about how it has over 300,000 miles on it... unfortunatly, it's motor has been replaced at least once and numerous other problems including engine fires have occured... yet he swears it's more reliable than any American cars....even thought he's never tried replacing all that crap and repeatedly fixing or even owning any American cars

 

[a6m5]

the fact that you've heard more stories about imports with many miles on them backs my point, speaking of all this, I know a guy who has an 84 jetta diesel... hes all about how it has over 300,000 miles on it... unfortunatly, it's motor has been replaced at least once and numerous other problems including engine fires have occured... yet he swears it's more reliable than any American cars....even thought he's never tried replacing all that crap and repeatedly fixing or even owning any American cars

How does that back up your point? That the guy with the '84 Jetta is in denial? what happened to this?

anyways, I have personally owned 2 80's GM cars with over 180,000 miles on them, both worked perfectly fine though, my brother had a 90 oldsmobile with 150,000 that ran like new... & that same brother has a 93 Firebird with 175.000 miles on it & just now replaced the tranny (not bad for a car that runs 13.6 @ 109 with bald 245 tires) all with simple bolt-ons too...

Do you have a relative, who owns '84 Jetta by any chance? Just kidding.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

it backs up my point because I said people try harder to make imports go the distance... whereas the American buyers just get a new one - I certainly havent ever known anybody who tried to make an American car drive for 40 million miles

Do you have a relative, who owns '84 Jetta by any chance? Just kidding.???
maybe it made sense in your head, but it's pretty unexplained and probabley less humorous outside of it...or maybe im a dum-dum that just doesnt get it

 

[Wolfe]

Please. Claiming "people who buy american cars give up on them sooner even though there's nothing wrong" is just ridiculous. You might as well claim that customers who eat at Burger King are less likely to finish their meal than customers who eat at McDonald's.

And if y'all want to talk about cars and miles...my parents' '94 Blazer and '95 Oldsmobile have less than 100,000 miles on them, and a '90 Grand Prix that was totalled, as well as a '90 Jeep Cherokee that we sold after buying the Blazer, had less than 100,000 miles as well. All have/had suffered several mechanical failures, including alternators crapping out (more than once on the Grand Prix), heaters failing, the 4WD actuators on the Blazer and Jeep crapping out, brake system trouble, fuel system trouble, power-steering trouble, transmission problems, and electrical gremlins.

Most of my relatives own american cars that are 10 years old or younger, and they all have nearly as many problems.

The only great cars my parents have ever owned were a 200,000+ mile '76 Jeep that had no problems other than rusting out, and a 200,000+ mile '84 Accord that was sold after someone broke into it and broke the starting mechanism by trying a screwdriver.

In the year that I've owned my 203,000-mile '85 BMW, so far the top mechanical failures are two broken wires that disabled the alternator (until they were replaced) and old, cracked coolant hoses that leaked and caused the car to overheat.

My friends have all owned foreign cars, including a 170,000-mile '89 Celica that was killed off by a bad CV-joint (damaged the block/oil-pan) and a negligent oil-change place (oil not replaced, engine blew in the weakened area), a 290,000-mile '88 Camry that was given up on after the engine/transmission mounts crumbled upon attempting a clutch replacement, a 260,000-mile '85 Accord that regularly travels 6 hours between here and my friend's University in Minnesota and is still running fine, and a 220,000-mile '85 Supra that is driven hard yet suffers no problems.

The only bad cars my friends have driven were a 103,000-mile '89 Sentra that was abused by the previous owner, yet didn't have any problems other than a slippery clutch which eventually gave out (the car was junked), and a 130,000-mile '89 Jetta that was drained of all of its fluids and sat for 5 years until my friend test-drove it (the car was given gas, but the previous owner forgot about the no-oil and no-trans fluid). It had a leaky radiator, bad wheel bearings, a bad transmission, a bad powersteering unit, electrical issues, and a worn clutch. However, most of those problems have been fixed now, and the VW is used daily.

Like BlazinXtreme said, Detroit has made leaps and bounds recently, but in the mid-90's and earlier, they weren't much to talk about.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

and your doing the exact thing you gripe about me doing... making excuses for cars that didnt last & claiming there were no problems on the ones that did

2nd off many of the cars you listed were cheap fixes if you stated all that was truly wrong... a starter?? junk it? kidding right? engine & tranny mounts? kidding again right? if they fixed so much crap on the American cars, how come nobody fixed the imports?

P.S. all those problems you listed for the American cars.. I'll bet they do sound a lot worse when you name the problems for 4-5 cars all at once

many times, I actually don't finish McDonalds....

 

[Tornado]

and your doing the exact thing you gripe about me doing... making excuses for cars that didnt last & claiming there were no problems on the ones that did

Well, if the damned thing has nearly 300,000 miles on it and something brakes, it's a little more understanable than if your car had something major go after less than 100,000 miles. My moms Chevy Blazer threw a connecting rod at 74,936 miles. That's a little less acceptable than when her Toyota Celica blew out it's fuel injectors at 237,048 miles, if you know what I mean.

2nd off many of the cars you listed were cheap fixes if you stated all that was truly wrong... a starter?? junk it? kidding right? engine & tranny mounts? kidding again right? if they fixed so much crap on the American cars, how come nobody fixed the imports?

Because the imports all had more than 100,000 miles on them. If a car has more than 100,000 miles on it, be it American or imported, you scrap it, because anything that will go wrong will cost more than the car to fix. The American cars all had less than 100,000 miles on them, so they still were worth some notable amount of money.

P.S. all those problems you listed for the American cars

...And if y'all want to talk about cars and miles...my parents' '94 Blazer and '95 Oldsmobile have less than 100,000 miles on them, and a '90 Grand Prix that was totalled, as well as a '90 Jeep Cherokee that we sold after buying the Blazer, had less than 100,000 miles as well. All have/had suffered several mechanical failures, including alternators crapping out (more than once on the Grand Prix), heaters failing, the 4WD actuators on the Blazer and Jeep crapping out, brake system trouble, fuel system trouble, power-steering trouble, transmission problems, and electrical gremlins...
...My friends have all owned foreign cars, including a 170,000-mile '89 Celica that was killed off by a bad CV-joint (damaged the block/oil-pan) and a negligent oil-change place (oil not replaced, engine blew in the weakened area), a 290,000-mile '88 Camry that was given up on after the engine/transmission mounts crumbled upon attempting a clutch replacement, a 260,000-mile '85 Accord that regularly travels 6 hours between here and my friend's University in Minnesota and is still running fine, and a 220,000-mile '85 Supra that is driven hard yet suffers no problems...


I can see how these two paragraphs totally aren't written the exact same way.

 

[Joey D]

You guys realize Blazers have a lot of problems if you don't take care of them constantly. I'm closing on 36,000 miles with mine and I already had to get a new differential put it and I put new brakes on it at 30,000. So as you can tell the Blazer's have some issues, but that's why they killed em, they were way outta date.

 

[Tornado]

You guys realize Blazers have a lot of problems if you don't take care of them constantly. I'm closing on 36,000 miles with mine and I already had to get a new differential put it and I put new brakes on it at 30,000. So as you can tell the Blazer's have some issues, but that's why they killed em, they were way outta date.

I know they were based on ideas from the 70's/early 80's, but only 74k before a connecting rod goes is downright pathetic. My mom put 61k out of the 74k, and she pampered that truck like it was my brother. The truck was still worth about 4 grand when the engine went though (she sold it for $3,850), so it did pay off in the end. I do suppose the Blazer is a bad example though. My dad has put 118k on his Neon ACR, and the only thing he had to do to fix it was replace the speaker wire when a squirrel chewed through them.

 

[194GVan]

I just have to ask, how did a squirrel get in the car?

 

[a6m5]

it backs up my point because I said people try harder to make imports go the distance... whereas the American buyers just get a new one - I certainly havent ever known anybody who tried to make an American car drive for 40 million miles

Do you have a relative, who owns '84 Jetta by any chance? Just kidding.???
maybe it made sense in your head, but it's pretty unexplained and probabley less humorous outside of it...or maybe im a dum-dum that just doesnt get it

I'm trying to look at it from a neutral point of view, but I think your biase for Detroit is tad too much. Just like how GM is starting to get recognized for the improvements they made on their vehicle's quality(feel free to look up dictionary for this one ), way I look at it, some of the Japanese makes have earned the reputation they have. Consumers didn't just decide one day that American cars were crappy and Japanese cars were put together better. Detroit really did go through some dark times, but now they are coming back(at least parts of GM). That's my take anyway, and I think we should just agree to disagree. Although I disagreed with you, I did appreciate you keeping the discussion friendly, so thanks! 👍


194GVan: I think they were looking for this.

To those who doesn't know, this part is often called "squirrel cage"(at least in the States).

 

[neanderthal]

there was a time when japanese cars were derided and the term "rice burnier" was coined during that era. they were considered ****boxes and worthless and given away free with the purchase of a cadillac (as a promotion at some dealers!) and so on

like a6m5 just said, the transition from japanese cars being derided didnt happen overnight. neither did the domestics losing of the plot. and while i will champion thier im proved reliability over japanese cars day and night, i will not buy any domestic car in the near future based on some subjective things (like interior quality, and so on.) there are soem that woul dbe clsoe, the CTS and some of the new ford sedans being a few examples.

but when i peek in teh interior of the current pontiacs and chevys and see hard shiny plastic akin to what id expect to see in a cheap korean imports, i smell cheap. and then i begin to wonder where else theyve cut corners and gone cheap. and i walk away to the japanese dealer across the street and buy a car.

i read the recent news columns on autowek daily. an anecdote i remember a few months ago was when a former toyota general manager was hired by GM. a comment he made about durability testing was that at toyota they tested a part till failure, whereas at GM they tested it to make sure failure didnt happen during the warranty period. theres a huge schism in the philosophies of those companies if what he said was the case. and woudl explain why i see so many people buying imports coming from domestics here.

 

[a6m5]

there was a time when japanese cars were derided and the term "rice burnier" was coined during that era. they were considered ****boxes and worthless and given away free with the purchase of a cadillac (as a promotion at some dealers!) and so on

like a6m5 just said, the transition from japanese cars being derided didnt happen overnight. neither did the domestics losing of the plot.

Exactly. I've heard the Cadillac story before, it's unbelivable. There was a time when Japanese cars had similar reputation to Yugos, Korean cars and now the Chinese cars.

i read the recent news columns on autowek daily. an anecdote i remember a few months ago was when a former toyota general manager was hired by GM. a comment he made about durability testing was that at toyota they tested a part till failure, whereas at GM they tested it to make sure failure didnt happen during the warranty period. theres a huge schism in the philosophies of those companies if what he said was the case. and woudl explain why i see so many people buying imports coming from domestics here.

I was reading a Japanese car magazine while back. It touched on the Toyota philosophy little bit. It said that there are times Toyota can bulid better performance cars, but they refuse to. Reason being that Toyota only uses parts and technology that fits their standard of reliability. Pretty hardcore.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

its that hard plastic thing that gets me... I have yet to see an American car made after 94 with hard plastic in it... its soft plastic, which may or may not be great, but all the japanese cars I've been in had Extremly hard plastic in them... this includes an 03 Civic, which was filled with hard plastic & one of the worst stereos I've ever heard.... when compared to my ex's 02 Sunfire, the interior was worse in every way I could imagine, and neither one was top of the line model or bottom either

 

[Wolfe]

and your doing the exact thing you gripe about me doing... making excuses for cars that didnt last & claiming there were no problems on the ones that did

2nd off many of the cars you listed were cheap fixes if you stated all that was truly wrong... a starter?? junk it? kidding right? engine & tranny mounts? kidding again right? if they fixed so much crap on the American cars, how come nobody fixed the imports?

There's a difference between saying "people who buy american cars always give up on them" and "a couple of my friends gave up on their 80's, rusty Japanese cars because they were cheap anyway"...The Camry that was junked cost $600, and the abused Sentra cost a whopping $225.

Also, as Toronado said, the american cars are much younger, worth more, and aren't plagued by age-related issues such as beat-up interiors, rust, dents, etc. as much as the Camry and Sentra were (god, the Sentra had so many rust spots and ruined paint it looked like the cratered surface of the moon).

P.S. all those problems you listed for the American cars.. I'll bet they do sound a lot worse when you name the problems for 4-5 cars all at once

I can see how these two paragraphs totally aren't written the exact same way.

Alright, I see what you guys mean, but I was trying to save you guys from reading a massive paragraph of text, as most of those problems were shared by more than one vehicle. I'll split them now --

"Alternators crapping out" -- Blazer, Grand Prix (twice), Olds
"Heaters failing" -- Blazer, Grand Prix
"4WD actuators on the Blazer and Jeep crapping out" (already specified)
"Brake system trouble" -- Grand Prix, Blazer, Olds
"Fuel system trouble" -- Jeep, Blazer
"Power-steering trouble" -- Jeep
"Transmission problems" -- Jeep, Olds
"Electrical gremlins" -- Jeep, Grand Prix

many times, I actually don't finish McDonalds....

 

[Zardoz]

Meanwhile, back at the dealers

"High oil prices have hit sales of SUVs, where profits tend to be highest.

"Ford's flagship Explorer sold 52% fewer units in November than the previous year, despite the launch of a new model a month earlier.

"But legacy labour costs are also hurting - and General Motors, for example, is seeing its cash reserves dwindle by billions every quarter."

 

[a6m5]

Meanwhile, back at the dealers

"High oil prices have hit sales of SUVs, where profits tend to be highest.

"Ford's flagship Explorer sold 52% fewer units in November than the previous year, despite the launch of a new model a month earlier.

"But legacy labour costs are also hurting - and General Motors, for example, is seeing its cash reserves dwindle by billions every quarter."

With Ford, it's not just the gas prices either. Have you guys seen the redesign on the Explorers? Original design looked great, but was definitely looking dated, so I know they had to do something, but damn! I don't think Ford will be able to keep up with Nissans and Jeeps in the SUV race, especially in the looks department. Escapes are selling good, and I think the F-150s sales should be really strong. 👍 I love Expeditions, but I don't think the consumers are digging it.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

does ford make a truck (no suv's) that isnt part of the F-Series?

 

[Joey D]

does ford make a truck (no suv's) that isnt part of the F-Series?

Ford Ranger

Meanwhile, back at the dealers

"High oil prices have hit sales of SUVs, where profits tend to be highest.

"Ford's flagship Explorer sold 52% fewer units in November than the previous year, despite the launch of a new model a month earlier.

"But legacy labour costs are also hurting - and General Motors, for example, is seeing its cash reserves dwindle by billions every quarter."

What does that article have to do with anything? Yes sales are slipping, but I really don't understand where the article is coming from. Are they blaming SUV's?

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

Some hard-eyed Wall Street money boys think it could happen:

I blame it all on the Pontiac Aztek

They've lost nine billion so far this year, and their total debt is 276 billion. Makes you wonder why they didn't go belly-up a long time ago...

Why do you think Toyota will be the biggest carmaker in the world next year?

In September 2005, GM knew a loss of 20% in the sale of cars, also Ford Motors knew a loss while Toyota raised it's sale with 10%.

If this will keep on for a year, Toyota's off in the distance

 

[Zardoz]

...What does that article have to do with anything?...

So you feel that there is no connection between declining sales, continuing massive losses, and the possibility of bankruptcy, which is what this thread was originally about?

 

[Joey D]

So you feel that there is no connection between declining sales, continuing massive losses, and the possibility of bankruptcy, which is what this thread was originally about?

No I didn't see a connection in the article, I know GM isn't doing as well but the article didn't really tell me much.

 

[neanderthal]

well, the article talks about declining sales.

the massive losses we know about.

the possibility of bankruptcy is the question.

IMO GM needs several homeruns in the car segment to reverse that possibility. the solstice could have been one, until they decided not to think it through and severely limit trunk space. most people who can only afford one car will not be buying the soltice.

if development of zeta hadnt been interuppted we might have been hearing substantiated rumours of a RWD car to carry on in the camaros footsteps. shortsighted move to halt development, then a few months later start developing it again.

the writings been on the wall about car based SUVs gaining in popularity vs truck based ones, but GM chose to push forward thier GMT 900 platform for short term gain. and styled them blandly to boot.



many of GMs recent mis-steps had been managerial/ executive mistakes, rather than the legacy costs and the unions.