Will GT4 support progressive scan and DD5.1?

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RouWa
That´s because it is the measure of things. You know the chip is quite expensive?

However, a native 480p signal still looks better than any 480i signal that is deinterlaced to 480p. I´m still waiting for the VisionHDP to be released. It upconverts 480i, 480p and even 1080i video sources to any user definable output resolution between 480p and 1080p. And it does not cost 50.000 $.

that'd be true, a deintercaler wouln't do much with a PS2 signal, because it's not video. so upconverting the signal would still leave you with just 240 pixels instead of 480 even after conversion.
with video on the otherhand, the deintercaler can read frames ahead to get a true 480 image.
 
Yes, but upconversion is necessary for displays with a high native resolution. That´s why beamers i.e. have internal scalers. Even on my ordinary 21 inch PC monitor 480p looks odd.
 
So GT4 will definitly not support 480p?

So it will be 16:9 480i... This is what GT3 is correct?

Isn't the only way to make a 480i image to 16:9 to have black bars on top and bottom, Letterbox? That sucks if you have a widescreen tv.

So if GT3 is 16:9 480i who is running this game on a WS TV? Is the image letterboxed?
 
0100
So GT4 will definitly not support 480p?

So it will be 16:9 480i... This is what GT3 is correct?

Isn't the only way to make a 480i image to 16:9 to have black bars on top and bottom, Letterbox? That sucks if you have a widescreen tv.

So if GT3 is 16:9 480i who is running this game on a WS TV? Is the image letterboxed?

I have a HDTV set that is widescreen. No, there are no bars on the widescreen TV when you turn on the GT3 16:9 aspect ratio setting. That's the whole point. The entire picture is filled up. The races, and the race replays, look great, the tracks are wider. But, menus, and everything else, look streatched out and it's terrible.

Running GT3 in WS mode is great, only if you connect your PS2 via a component connection, and have a high quality deinterlacer (scaler, line doubler) in your WS TV set. I have no complaints about my picture quality, but then again, not everybody paid over four grand for their TV set. You should note that 99% of Plasma TVs don't have deinterlacers. And most TV sets that have them have a low quality cheap grade deinterlacer.

One can buy a deinterlacer for 50 bucks but should note it wont be worth the pot you piss in. I've never seen a good deinterlacer for less than 500 bucks.
 
Everything while playing would appear perfectly normal on a widescreen TV, only the menus would change. I've noticed this on the Toyota demo, simply because it defaults to 16:9 mode (and I only have a normal 4:3 TV). The menus look normal (except for car selection, I believe that's widescreen), and the game itself is of course "squished". The menu doesn't change at all when you change modes, so that would indeed be stretched horizontally on a widescreen TV.

Might help a bit if I threw out some basic widescreen info. :)

Both 16:9 and 4:3 both play at the exact same resolution. 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL). The only difference is the Pixel Aspect Ratio. I'll be using NTSC numbers here, since that's what I'm most familiar with. TV pixels are not actually square.. they're slightly taller than they are wide. The aspect ratio is 0.9. Which is why a 720x480 is actually exactly the same as a 640x480 image on a computer monitor. They're both "4:3", but the monitor uses perfectly square pixels instead of the stretched ones a TV uses. So when viewed on a TV, it still appears to have the same overall image ratio (4:3). Conversely, if you watch raw 720x480 footage on a computer, it appears stretched ever-so-slightly horizontally. Basically, the people all look a little fatter than in real life.. hehe.

Now, widescreen takes this a step further, by introducing a pixel ratio of 1.2. The pixels are now wider than they are tall. But the resolution itself is still the same, 720x480. The result is that when a widescreen image is displayed on a standard TV, the image appears stretched vertically. It's actually not stretched vertically, though, it's squished horizontally. Widescreen video and games are designed to play "full screen" when viewed on a widescreen TV. The television will automatically stretch the image horizontally to fill the entire widescreen TV. This is why things designed for 4:3 (like GT's menus) look stretched on a widescreen TV.. because they ARE stretched. So is the main image itself (movie, game, whatever), but since the pixel ratio is adjusted to compensate for that stretching, the resulting image is perfect. And visually, there's no loss of quality.. unlike a computer monitor, a television's "resolution" is based primarily on the vertical channel. And the vertical still has 480 lines of resolution, so there's no visible loss of quality on a "stretched" widescreen image.

If you want to see an example of a widescreen image on a normal TV, just pop in any DVD that says "Enhanced for Widescreen" or something involving 16:9. That means that the film itself is encoded in widescreen, the "squished" image. 99% of DVDs produced today are encoded like this. And 99% of DVD players can recognize this, and compensate if you don't have a widescreen TV. The DVD player will see it as 16:9, sees that the player is set to 4:3 (like mine), and automatically squishes the image down and adds the black bars on the top and bottom. DVDs actually gives the distinct advantage to users with a widescreen TV, because they actually get to see the film at it's full resolution (480) instead of the "squished" version that I myself see on most of the DVDs I own (which is equivelant to about 405.. that's seventy-five lines of resolution that I never see). Which is why DVDs on a widescreen TV appear to be sharper and more detailed than when viewed on a 4:3 TV, they get a higher resolution.

Video games don't work quite that way, since everything you see is generated real-time by the machine, it's not just playing back a pre-recorded video. So a PS2, for example, will simply add the extra elements to the side of a screen (i.e. more track), and then display the image at a widescreen ratio, which is then "stretched" by a widescreen TV to fill the entire wide screen.

And this is turning into a book.. lol.

As for 480p, I can understand why PD says the game won't support it. Shall I go on about interlacing? Sure, why not? :)

To start off, I'll shatter some beliefs... most video games do not actually run at sixty frames per second. They run interlaced, 60i. The system, and the TV, draws only one half of the screen at a time, every other line, from top to bottom. Then it goes back and draws the other half (even, odd, even, odd, etc). This sequence only happens thirty times per second on a standard television. BUT, since TWO interlaced fields are drawn in that time, it's actually drawing top-to-bottom sixty times per second (even, odd). When displayed in the proper order, this can lead to a visual perception of sixty frames per second, which is what most games use to create "60fps". If the fields were reversed, it'd get all shades of funky, and the interlacing would be painfully obvious. Easily fixed in the software, so it's something you rarely see (except in the occasional pause-screen and such).

What does this mean for games? Simple.. the PS2 only has to draw half the screen at 60fps. In effect, it's drawing a full frame at 30fps, but since each field is slightly different (pending the motion on-screen), it gives the appearance of smoother motion.

Now we need a quick definition of progressive.. quite simple, really. Just like a computer monitor, a digital TV (plasma, HD, whatever) draws full frames at a time, top to bottom, without skipping evey other field.. it draws the entire screen in one shot, and can do so at a full sixty frames per second. This is "60p" (if based on frame rate) or "480p" if based on resolution.

What does this mean for GT4? Quite simple.. The PS2 would have to effectively DOUBLE the resolution at which it displays the game in order to accomodate sixty FULL frames per second. As you can imagine, this would need a lot of power from the system, and GT is sucking up every ounce of power it can get. A switch to 60p would require a severe reduction in the visual quality of the image in order for the PS2 to be able to do it. With many games, this isn't such a big deal, but with GT4 pushing the PS2 as hard as it is.. it can't do both. You get either 60p OR beautiful graphics, but not at the same time.

PS3 should be able to do this, however.. and by that time, I should have a digital TV.. hehe. I'm thinking of getting one of those picture-tube types myself, because the cost is lower. But I'll be going name-brand rather than bottom of the barrel, so it'll have all the bells and whistles I'll need.

Now, onto the last part of the discussion... 5.1 sound. This is where I stop babbling and ASK a question.. hehe.

What would be the best way to hook this up to my sound system? I currently have the PS2 running into the "Video2" inputs on my reciever (FYI, the reciever is full 5.1, Dolby Digital, Pro Logic, DTS, da woiks). And I do have an optical input free (my DVD player uses the Coax input). Does anyone know how easy it would be to use Video2 for video and Optical1 for audio? Or does it vary from system to system (and maybe I should just call Sony.. hehe). Just thought I'd ask.

Anyway, I hope you found today's lesson enjoyable. We now return you to your regularly scheduled.. um.. whatever you were doing.

Oh, and before you ask, I'm not really much of an electronics wizard. Sure, I can wire up my entertainment center in my sleep, but I don't know much about the internal workings. The only reason I know so much about interlacing/progressive/widescreen is because of all the work I do in CGI, visual effects, things like that, creating images for display on a TV. So you have to know how the visual modes work in order to make sure everything looks the way it needs to. :)
 
0100
When you say menus and everything else looks stretched, does that include anything while playing? The signs and background while racing, does this look stretched?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1293955#post1293955
When using WS mode with GT3, while the TV is still set to Full (regular) screen, the cars in the garage look squished from the sides. Meaning, they look taller. The menu icons, text and graphics look normall. The track, signs and cars while racing also looked squished from the sides which gives them a taller appearance.

When unsing WS mode with GT3, while the TV set is in WS mode, the menu items, icons and text look strectched from the sides, and the cars in the garage appear normal. All objects while racing appear normal, as do the relpays.

Relax. If you do it correctly, GT3 in widescreen looks awesome. Remember, good WS TV, plus great deinterlacer, pluse component or better connection, plus GT3 16:9 mode, plus TV in WS mode = awesome GT3 experience. It ain't cheap, but it's worth it.
 
Solid Lifters
When using WS mode with GT3, while the TV is still set to Full (regular) screen, the cars in the garage look squished from the sides. Meaning, they look taller. The menu icons, text and graphics look normall. The track, signs and cars while racing also looked squished from the sides which gives them a taller appearance.

When unsing WS mode with GT3, while the TV set is in WS mode, the menu items, icons and text look strectched from the sides, and the cars in the garage appear normal. All objects while racing appear normal, as do the relpays.

Relax. If you do it correctly, GT3 in widescreen looks awesome. Remember, good WS TV, plus great deinterlacer, pluse component or better connection, plus GT3 16:9 mode, plus TV in WS mode = awesome GT3 experience. It ain't cheap, but it's worth it.

you might also want to turn your PS2 start up options onto wide screen mode also, im not sure it does anything different though.
 
im sure iv never had a problem with gt3's menus being squished in widescreen, supposedly the cars would also be squished? but mine certainly aren't
 
GT3 Does support widescreen and GT4 should as well.

My understanding is that PS2 does not have the real-time 5.1 (Dolby Digital or DTS) capabilities, only Dolby ProLogic II (not discrete channels).

It's a shame if such a beautiful looking game like GT4 doesn't have a progressive option. I'd have rather had it spread over two discs like the first two installments if space was an issue.

GT3 looks average at best in widescreen mode on my 55" Mitsubishi HDTV.

A Polyphony Digital-made surround mode cannot be supported unless the decoder is built into the PS2 or your home theater's processor/receiver. They should stick to the standard Dolby ProLogic II as it sounds quite good on my home theater system:

Rotel RSP-1066 Pre/Pro
Rotel RMB-1075 Power Amp
Mitsubishi WS-55411 HDTV
Paradigm Reference Studio Series 100v3 (Front)
Paradigm Reference Studio Series CC-470v3 (Center)
Paradigm Reference Studio Series 20v3 (Surround)
SVS PC Plus 20-39 (Sub)

Bill
 
wgb113
GT3 Does support widescreen and GT4 should as well.

My understanding is that PS2 does not have the real-time 5.1 (Dolby Digital or DTS) capabilities, only Dolby ProLogic II (not discrete channels).

A Polyphony Digital-made surround mode cannot be supported unless the decoder is built into the PS2 or your home theater's processor/receiver. They should stick to the standard Dolby ProLogic II as it sounds quite good on my home theater system:
Perhaps you should take a look at this:
 
SaintKamus
MGS2 indded has 5.1, but just on the cutscenes, same goes for FFX (wich, oddly enough, DOESNT play in DD 5.1 while in game, but when you go to the place where you can "buy" the cinematics, those have 5.1!)

GT3 DOES have 16:9 support, but of course, it's low res as hell, same goes for GT4, widescreen support.. no progressive scan though (wich kinda sucks, cause my Projector is progresive scan 1280x720) it still looks "ok" but true HD PC gaming looks MUCH cleaner than that.

GT4 has been confirmed not to get progressive scan support, mainly because of video memory limitations, probably fillrate too (they'd have to get rid of lots of effects to make it work)

as for 5.1, this is as of yet unconfirmed, however, it *IS* doable, but it's very unlikley we'd see it because the CPU is allready being pushed to the limit, the are some games out there with 5.1 DTS out of the ps2 (DTS only, since it's less compressed than dolby digital, it's easier to encode on the fly for the PS2).

hopefuly PD found a way to get 5.1 with out taking a big performance hit, but don't hold your breath. BTW you haven't lived untill you played GT4 on a 16:9 72" screen ^_^
Some reason I never noticed the DD 5.1 for the FFX cutscenes myself. Anyway I must agree with MEtal gear that it was during the cutscenes. However GTA Vice city was INGAME DTS. :)

It would have been hella nice to see GT4 to support a 480p-720p type progressive to HD type quality but I guess we might have to wait for GT5. In game DTS or DD would have been a fantastic experience I must say.
 
Um well I dont know what that grid is saying there but that is definitely not what I have experienced with GTA: Vice city. That game is IN game real time DTS as is SSX tricky which are both DTS interactive. They do display on my reciever as being DTS as I am in fact playing the game. They are also available options in the sound menu in the game.
 
wgb113
They are both Dolby ProLogic II and not true, discrete Dolby Digital in real-time (as you're playing the game).

The PS2 CANNOT support in-game real-time Dolby Digital or DTS:

DOLBY LABS

Bill

it can, but the performance hit for dolby digital would be to great, (it has to be done in software, the xbox does it in hardware, so it's independet from the CPU on the xbox).
DTS is easier, since it requires less compression, the performance hit would be quite a bit less, but it would still be significant, specially in a game like gran turismo wich truly is bringing the PS2 to it's limits graphicswise.
 
I stand corrected on the DTS aspect.

FWIW, DPLII is MUCH better than DPL, no argument there...but it doesn't hold a candle to Dolby Digital or DTS. Anyone with a decent home theater system can tell that.

There's no substitute for discrete channels. Think DPLII's the answer? Try this:

1) Take one of your favorite movies on DVD with a known killer soundtrack.
2) Select the 2-ch soundtrack and have your PRE/PRO or receiver decode it using DPLII.
3) Now go back and select the DD or DTS soundtrack and have your equipment decode it properly.

NO CONTEST!

More important IMO than surround sound for GT4 is the 480p option. The GT series has (almost) always pushed the envelope for realism in driving games when it came to graphics. To not implement the very best possible picture quality to this game is a bit of a let down for me.

Bill
 
wgb113
More important IMO than surround sound for GT4 is the 480p option. The GT series has (almost) always pushed the envelope for realism in driving games when it came to graphics. To not implement the very best possible picture quality to this game is a bit of a let down for me.

Bill


again, this is due to the fact that PD went for the best possible graphics, more resolution in this game would mean they'd have to sacrifice graphical effects, making it work would make the game look worse, 480p would make the game look even less impressive than GT3, and since most people use regular TV's, then the tradeoff works for most people, come GT5, and i at least want 720p.
 
Quite right, Saint.. KY himself stated it would have required graphical sacrifices to get 60p, and he wasn't willing to do that. Especially since most customers are still playing on standard NTSC televisions that can't display progressive. It requires a digital television, and those are still only a small portion of the customer base.

But going back to the original topic, now that it's been decided that the system can support DTS 5.1, will GT4 support it? And if so, what's the best way to get that data out to the reciever? The optical cable, I'm guessing?

And if GT4 ends up only being Dolby 2-channel Surround, will that still function through the standard Left/Right RCA cables, or will this also require the optical out?

I'm asking because optical cables are somewhat expensive, and I haven't needed one before now (my DVD player uses coax). I'll also need to figure out how to get it to accept different input signals from two sources, since the optical input in my reciever isn't linked directly to the video inputs. Time to read the manual again.. hehe.
 
wgb113
Try this:

1) Take one of your favorite movies on DVD with a known killer soundtrack.
2) Select the 2-ch soundtrack and have your PRE/PRO or receiver decode it using DPLII.
3) Now go back and select the DD or DTS soundtrack and have your equipment decode it properly.
To take advantage of DPL2 sound you need encoded DPL2 media. A DPL2 upmixing surround simulation made on-air by your decoder from a 2.0 DD track(DPL/stereo) not´s comparable to an stereo source processed with DPL2. A normal DVD movie has a DD5.1/DTS track and DPL track, not DPL2. Try a proper encoded DPL2 sources(sound demos, DPL2 games(PS2/Gamecube), etc).

GT4 is made to be played on an interlaced Tv the best is an 100/120Hz widescreen system, in a non interlaced system the IQ would be worse.
 
The mode doesn't really matter much to my reciever.. it can auto-detect the incoming signal, and set itself up with DDPL, DD5.1, DTS, whatever.
 
Yes, but he is saying to switch manually the 2 channel sound sygnal(DPL/stereo encoded sound) to DPL2 in order to make a comparison.
 
Sven
GT4 will not have 5.1 surround. And FYI, you'd need an optical cable to get that out of your PS2.
If that is true, then what is this all about? Can anybody read it?
 
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