Will there be a trade-limit?

[IceMan PJN]

The trade limit and 1-mil restriction was to limit abuse of an exploit. It was nice that we could backup and restore game saves, but it was exploited to duplicate free cars, and at one time this included the most expensive ones.

 

[glassjaw]

Well there are games like that, but they aren't "games" per se. They're PC simulators, and they do pretty much exactly what's described above: choose a car, a track, and go nuts. Outside of the actual experience of driving, there's no challenge because all of the content is available from the start. So go play one of those titles. Gran Turismo has never been like that, and it likely never will, because it's a game first before a simulator.

 

[Exorcet]

Well there are games like that, but they aren't "games" per se. They're PC simulators, and they do pretty much exactly what's described above: choose a car, a track, and go nuts.

What about them makes them non-games? They sell for exactly the same reasons other games do, entertainment.

Outside of the actual experience of driving, there's no challenge

So it's like GT, only more challenging perhaps. Making a money counter go up isn't challenging. You can get to the FGT championship by coming in last place in the Sunday Cup forever. That doesn't sound difficult.

So go play one of those titles.

Or just have GT implement such a mode of play.

Gran Turismo has never been like that, and it likely never will, because it's a game first before a simulator.

Hard to believe a game would have credits. As the rest, nonsense. GT has not had plenty of things, yet not only do people ask for those things, they also accept things no one asked for. Maybe you ask PD to fix everything and turn GT6 into a PS3 port of GT1, all those things that weren't originally included are terrible.

 

[glassjaw]

What about them makes them non-games? They sell for exactly the same reasons other games do, entertainment.

A game involves being presented with a challenge, overcoming that challenge, earning a reward, and repeating that process until you reach an ultimate reward and/or an ending. Like GT's career mode. Or it might be heavily story driven, where completing those challenges furthers the story along, like an action or survival horror game. What you're describing isn't a game; it's a simulation. Which is absolutely fine, but Gran Turismo is more than a simulation. There are plenty of PC based-simulators whose entire purpose is to provide the most accurate driving experience and nothing more - no career progression, no earning credits. RFactor. RaceRoom. iRacing (although that features a paid element). Just driving what you want, when you want; exactly what you're asking for. So again, I recommend you play one of those titles.

So it's like GT, only more challenging perhaps. Making a money counter go up isn't challenging. You can get to the FGT championship by coming in last place in the Sunday Cup forever. That doesn't sound difficult.

It's more difficult than having all the content you desire unlocked right from the start and not having to work for it.

Hard to believe a game would have credits. As the rest, nonsense. GT has not had plenty of things, yet not only do people ask for those things, they also accept things no one asked for. Maybe you ask PD to fix everything and turn GT6 into a PS3 port of GT1, all those things that weren't originally included are terrible.

New ideas are great. PD should think of new and exciting ideas for future titles. But what you're asking for goes against one of the core elements of the franchise. Many fans were furious at PD for not including a career mode in GT PSP. That open-ended, start from nothing and race your way to the top system is synonymous with Gran Turismo. It's one of the major draws of the series.

 

[TheeFrogmanlego]

Tornado fails to realize that people made duplicate accounts to basically " grind PSN..."

 

[mr_serious]

I don't see what's wrong with having people work for things. Keeps them playing longer after all.

Because this isn't an MMO or an RPG. This is, or at least was originally, a racing game. I'm not sure what sort of game it is now because racing seems to be the lowest priority on the list.

When playing online against friends 99% of the time we prefer to race the same vehicle against each other. This removes the car performance variable & makes it a content of skill.

My friends & I who used to play earlier GT's socially no longer bother despite all having GT5, wheels, headsets & FTTC connections. We are fairly casual players, who don't know vast amounts about cars (we're all bikers!).

We got tired of the "I don't have one of those!" issue when attempting some casual beer fuelled social racing. In fact we haven't had an online session since the trading limits were introduced.

The simple fact is that the more people there are that own any given car, the greater your opportunities to race that car.

Why do some players care more about how you acquire a car than whether or not you can drive it?

A game involves being presented with a challenge, overcoming that challenge, earning a reward, and repeating that process until you reach an ultimate reward and/or an ending. Like GT's career mode.
...

As far as I am concerned the appropriate psychological reward for a racing game is being able to have a decent race against good and equal competitors, with winning being a bonus.

New ideas are great. PD should think of new and exciting ideas for future titles. But what you're asking for goes against one of the core elements of the franchise. Many fans were furious at PD for not including a career mode in GT PSP. That open-ended, start from nothing and race your way to the top system is synonymous with Gran Turismo. It's one of the major draws of the series.

Well with PD's continual insistence on marketing GT as a 'simulator' you shouldn't be surprised when people want to be able to play it as a simulator. In GT's of the past it wasn't an issue because the constraints on what you could drive were directly analogous to real world limiting factors.

1) Passing a license test
2) Having enough money to buy the car.

In GT5 they decided to implement a Behavioural psychology 101 theory and introduce arcade based mechanisms which were designed to keep making people put money in a coin operated arcade machine.

How does the method other people use to acquire their cars affect your enjoyment of your game?

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Hey guys,


Most people were disapointed when they knew that there was a trade-limit of 1mil CR. So do you think that there will be a trade-limit of 1mil CR, no trade-limit or a higher CR trade-limit.

I myself think that it won't have a trade-limit. Everyone want's to trade those high valuable cars for other high valua cars that you still need.


Cheers!

What they really should do if they want people to be able to trade is to remove any limits but make it an actual trade. Most people were just making a copy of the save game, sending the car then restoring the save so they were not actually trading anything and that is likely why the limit was imposed.

If you were to do that on Forza they would probably make you delete your save game and start over or worst case ban your account from online access in the game.

 

[Downhill Dino]

Rather then quoting bits and pieces, or all of it, I'll use those large red questions you posed.

Why do some players care more about how you acquire a car than whether or not you can drive it?

I like the system, it's been good, at least to me. Up until GT5, it doesn't work all that well. GT2 I feel was the best at it.

How does the method other people use to acquire their cars affect your enjoyment of your game?

I never said it affected my game. I really hate this mindless response people come up with. I'm sorry but

 

[mr_serious]

Most people were just making a copy of the save game, sending the car then restoring the save so they were not actually trading anything and that is likely why the limit was imposed.

And what is wrong with that?

It would be a problem if the game was advertised as an MMO trading game, but it isn't. It is marketed as a racing game. I have no problem with people who want to play it as a trading game. Emergent behaviour is great.

However that shouldn't stop my friends and I playing as a racing simulator (see my previous post for how trading limits affect our ability to do this)

 

[Terronium-12]

Tornado fails to realize that people made duplicate accounts to basically " grind PSN..."

A problem that exists only because a proper system wasn't put into place in the beginning.

 

[mr_serious]

I like the system, it's been good, at least to me. Up until GT5, it doesn't work all that well. GT2 I feel was the best at it.

How is that an answer to my question? "Why do some players care more about how you acquire a car than whether or not you can drive it?"?

I never said it affected my game. I really hate this mindless response people come up with. I'm sorry but

In which case why are you criticising people who don't want a trading limit, or would like a mode where all cars are unlocked?

Why is the question mindless? Maybe you haven't understood the question?

 

[Downhill Dino]

How is that an answer to my question? "Why do some players care more about how you acquire a car than whether or not you can drive it?"?

I was using your question, which I thought I partly answered, as a way to respond to the paragraph and other bits above it. Call me lazy, but on a phone going through all that, it's pretty difficult.

In which case why are you criticising people who don't want a trading limit, or would like a mode where all cars are unlocked?

I'm not allowed to critisize but you can? But to answer your question, I don't like that sort of gameplay. I thought I already said my stance on it on the first page.

Why is the question mindless? Maybe you haven't understood the question?

Was pretty sure your question was answered by the posts I had already made.

 

[mr_serious]

I was using your question, which I thought I partly answered, as a way to respond to the paragraph and other bits above it. Call me lazy, but on a phone going through all that, it's pretty difficult.

Suit yourself, it only makes a difference if you want people to actually understand the point you are trying to make.

I'm not allowed to critisize but you can? But to answer your question, I don't like that sort of gameplay. I thought I already said my stance on it on the first page.

I didn't say you couldn't criticise others, but I would like to understand how letting someone else trade is a bad thing. Let's just reiterate what we are discussing here...

You have been saying there should be a trade limit (and locked content etc..) because players should have to work for their cars.

Others are saying - There should be no trade limit or a mode where those who just want to race and not play a collecting/grinding/leveling game can easily get the cars they want to race with.

If you can still enjoy working through the game to earn your cars, why do you care if others can just be given those same cars? How does that affect your enjoyment of working through the game?

If your answer is 'it doesn't affect my game' then what possible objection can you have to lifting the trade limit or having an everything unlocked mode?

Was pretty sure your question was answered by the posts I had already made.

If it was why would I be asking you to clarify your position?

 

[Exorcet]

A game involves being presented with a challenge

Racing can be one. I still don't think making a money counter, that can never ever go down or become negative is much of a challenge. A long and drawnout repetitive process yes. Not a challenge.

earning a reward

Winning the race, or even just doing well.

and repeating that process until you reach an ultimate reward and/or an ending.

Games shouldn't end. The ultimate reward is enjoying getting rewards forever.

What you're describing isn't a game; it's a simulation.

This isn't a game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5gKFBRU_mM&t=330

Because there were no credits, there was no challenge, nor reward? And I didn't buy it for entertainment? You could attribute my spending about $1540 towards this, and I spent it all to be bored? Since this isn't a game.

Which is absolutely fine, but Gran Turismo is more than a simulation.

Honestly, credits and other distractions makes it feel like less than a game. The creditless simulator I posted above is more of a game because it lets you have fun without restrictions. GT has not learned how to do this yet.

There are plenty of PC based-simulators whose entire purpose is to provide the most accurate driving experience and nothing more - no career progression, no earning credits. RFactor. RaceRoom. iRacing (although that features a paid element). Just driving what you want, when you want; exactly what you're asking for. So again, I recommend you play one of those titles.

And if those are what I was looking for, I wouldn't be on a GT forum asking for GT to become more accommodating to players. GT has its strong points, especially now that PD seems to really care about the physics now and actually provide a simulator. If it wasn't for the announcement of the new physics engine, I might have been done with GT. However all the good points are covered behind a lot of junk that no one needs to put up with. It would only make sense to provide more play options in the game.

It's more difficult than having all the content you desire unlocked right from the start and not having to work for it.

It's longer. Only longer. Like I said, last place in the Sunday Cup is enough to progress in GT. Having LMP cars from the start just lets you go LMP racing at the start instead of waiting a month. The race remains just as challenging.

New ideas are great. PD should think of new and exciting ideas for future titles. But what you're asking for goes against one of the core elements of the franchise. Many fans were furious at PD for not including a career mode in GT PSP. That open-ended, start from nothing and race your way to the top system is synonymous with Gran Turismo. It's one of the major draws of the series.

I said nothing about excluding career mode. I want a simulator mode. I'm not asking for a change, but an addition.

 

[Tornado]

Tornado fails to realize that people made duplicate accounts to basically " grind PSN..."

No. I realize exactly why they did it. I was here when they did it. I saw the fallout over the issue when they did it. And I made it known that it was stupid even at the time when they did it. This is no different from the people who wanted Sony to ban players for duping cars, usually because "I had to work for them and they didn't". The actual fact is that I honestly could not care less how some people exploited GT5's systems to get around the asinine way it was designed. I only did it twice before the credit limit was established (to get a starting car so the game would stop bitching at me to buy a car rather than let me do licence tests and to get a Chaparral 2J).

Some people drove around in circles on SSR7. Some people sent themselves the best cars at the start so they didn't have to worry about not having money later. I just poured tons of time in B-Spec so I didn't have to worry about the stupid car level caps and the horribly imbalanced game economy. The fact that PD felt fit to stop the gifting exploiting by implementing a arbitrary and ridiculous set of restrictions on an already crappy car gifting system rather than actually fixing the problem says more towards their design priorities rather than anything about the people who didn't like them.

I never said it affected my game.

Then there is no reason to have a trade limit, because how they advance through the game is irrelevant to how you do so. There is no "working for things" in GT5, and there never was. Especially since the-log in bonus but even before it was implemented, the entirety of GT5's economy boils down to how many miles I want Bob to put on the X1 that PD gave me for putting tons of miles on my Formula GT (or, infamously, how many miles I want to put on my X1 that PD gave me for doing nothing at all when Vettel won the championship). And that's all it ever was, to the extent that I never even started A-Spec mode on my second playthrough because it was so poor and I just wanted to build up some cars for Arcade mode and online play.

That's not work. In fact, that's so not work that I don't even have to have it on the channel the game is on to do it. Memorize the menu system, push the required buttons every ~15 minutes, collect the Dream Car Championship prize money in a bit over an hour; all the while watching TV or something.

 

[HaylRayzor]

Your opinion means nothing in my game universe. Mine means nothing in yours.

Fixed that for you. Opinions are free, and most times not worth the money.

Back to the ot... There are reasona to have a trade limit, and reasons not to have one. It keeps people playing longer and that's what Sony wants. On the other hand, if people "finish" the game they will buy another one. Which logic wins?

In my own opinion (only valid in my universe) there will be a trade limit.

 

[Exorcet]

It keeps people playing longer

People like to assume this it seems.

 

[I Love GT6]

It keeps people playing longer

Explain me why people will play longer?

 

[Downhill Dino]

Then there is no reason to have a trade limit, because how they advance through the game is irrelevant to how you do so. There is no "working for things" in GT5, and there never was. Especially since the-log in bonus but even before it was implemented, the entirety of GT5's economy boils down to how many miles I want Bob to put on the X1 that PD gave me for putting tons of miles on my Formula GT (or, infamously, how many miles I want to put on my X1 that PD gave me for doing nothing at all when Vettel won the championship). And that's all it ever was, to the extent that I never even started A-Spec mode on my second playthrough because it was so poor and I just wanted to build up some cars for Arcade mode and online play.

That's not work. In fact, that's so not work that I don't even have to have it on the channel the game is on to do it. Memorize the menu system, push the required buttons every ~15 minutes, collect the Dream Car Championship prize money in a bit over an hour; all the while watching TV or something.

:

I like the system, it's been good, at least to me. Up until GT5, it doesn't work all that well. GT2 I feel was the best at it.

Never said I like how GT5 did it. Just said that I liked working for things.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

And what is wrong with that?

It would be a problem if the game was advertised as an MMO trading game, but it isn't. It is marketed as a racing game. I have no problem with people who want to play it as a trading game. Emergent behaviour is great.

But exactly how is it being used as a trading game when you are not actually trading anything. Keep in mind trading means that I exchange this for that so that when the deal is done I no longer have what I traded away and do have what I traded for. The fact that they allowed us to backup and restore our saved games opened the door for people to abuse the system by coping and gifting cars, paints, horns.

PD was nice about it and just restricted what could be gifted rather than removing the ability to restore a save or kill the save game when people did this. Forza would definitely kill your account so that you would no longer be able to gift anything or play online without at least deleting the save game and starting fresh.

I did a fair amount of "so called trading" myself to get the hard to find cars but really at this is is exploiting a hole in the system and really should not be allowed to happen. The sad part is that this also caused us not be be able to truly gift or do a legit trade in GT5.

 

[Exorcet]

If they were nice about it, they wouldn't have done anything. Duping caused zero problems with the game and made it that much better for a number of people. PD then tried to squash it for no good reason. The poor decisions need to stop.

Duping also in no way kept GT5 from having trading or gifting. Gifting went no where, so I don't even know how you're arguing that it isn't there. True trading isn't in GT5 only because PD decided not to bother with it.

 

[Lock2Lock]

If they were nice about it, they wouldn't have done anything. Duping caused zero problems with the game and made it that much better for a number of people. PD then tried to squash it for no good reason. The poor decisions need to stop.

Duping also in no way kept GT5 from having trading or gifting. Gifting went no where, so I don't even know how you're arguing that it isn't there. True trading isn't in GT5 only because PD decided not to bother with it.

Supposedly it was over loading PD'S servers.

I understand the one million credit limit though. Those people ripping people off by having them buy a friend request to get a Red Bull. That shouldn't be happening, it's a shame, but I agree with PD'S decision on that.

 

[CarBastard]

"Work" for your things?

With the seasonal events there's nothing like work!!! And with the one-time only reward cars and meager race pay-outs, working for your cars would take GT grinding levels into RuneScape land. It's absolutely idiotic.

Working for your cars was well in the GT/GT2/GT3/GT4 days where you earned money for your race, championship result, and a car that you could sell again. All of that to get cars that were worth 4.5M tops. But in GT5 with no cars that can be won again how are we supposed to get the 20M for an X1? American Cup race at Indy with a ZR1 until you're bored to death? That's not work, that's time wasted. PD have to look back at how rewards worked in previous GT games because they suck in GT5.

I don't oppose or approve the trade-limit, but I think the "work for your things" argument is pointless. If you ask me, I would like to work for things but a trade-limit isn't the only thing that ruins "working for your things", the seasonal rewards play a huge role here.

 

[HaylRayzor]

Explain to me why people will play longer.

People like to collect cars. If they can trade any number of cars at any time then they will be able to get all the cars they want in a short time. A trading limit means they have to come back to the game every day to trade or grind to get the cars.

 

[Uncle Harry]

GT5 had the balance wrong.
I can go online to a time trial, do one lap, and get a million credits in less than 5 minutes time.
Or I can spend 4 hours doing the F1 Championship and get about the same credits with the 200% log in bonus.

Why did GT5 make the entry level to the last enduro 40 and then reward you x number of credits which can not be added to your total. Would have made more sense for the entry requirement to be 39. They should dump the level system and go back to the license levels that allow entry.

If they do introduce all cars being available at the start they need to make entry requirements for A Spec far stricker.

 

[Exorcet]

People like to collect cars.

Some.

If they can trade any number of cars at any time then they will be able to get all the cars they want in a short time. A trading limit means they have to come back to the game every day to trade or grind to get the cars.

Or get bored of grinding and find something fun to play.

Artificially attempting to make people play the game for a long time only makes sense if the game have a shelf life and once it's expired, it's dead for good. I consider that poor design.

Make collection optional, and the gameplay fun and you'll have something lasting a lot longer.

 

[HaylRayzor]

Some.

OK, let's belabor the obvious, shall we... Some people like car collecting. Some people don't. Some people like playing online. Some people don't. Some people like playing arcade. Some people don't. Some people like photo mode. Some people don't. Some people like bla bla bla, and so on and so forth.

So now that we've established that some people like some things but not all people like all things...

Or get bored of grinding and find something fun to play.

Artificially attempting to make people play the game for a long time only makes sense if the game have a shelf life and once it's expired, it's dead for good. I consider that poor design.

Make collection optional, and the gameplay fun and you'll have something lasting a lot longer.

I hope that's directed at PD because I could not care less about trading cars, or trade limits. I only pointed out that the obvious reason for limits is to keep people playing longer. Some people. Not all people. M-kay?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Supposedly it was over loading PD'S servers.

I understand the one million credit limit though. Those people ripping people off by having them buy a friend request to get a Red Bull. That shouldn't be happening, it's a shame, but I agree with PD'S decision on that.

I can't believe that in this day and age, sending a small amount of data from one person to another could overload servers. And if that was the case, invest some money and buy some servers, it won't kill them.

People like to collect cars. If they can trade any number of cars at any time then they will be able to get all the cars they want in a short time. A trading limit means they have to come back to the game every day to trade or grind to get the cars.

When a game has to do anything to "force" people to play it, something is wrong. One should want to come back to the game day in and day out, voluntarily. There are only two ways I know of to acquire cars. Either play the game and buy or win them, or trade for them. You can't trade nothing for something, so in trading you still have to play the game, to acquire cars either directly or through trade, so you can trade with others.

And it wouldn't take much effort to stop the trading of duped cars if that was the goal. All you need to do is add a tag to any car that you acquire and label it the "original" version. When you dupe it, a second original version shows up in your garage and gets labeled a "duplication" and the game could prevent it from being traded. Simple enough programming and it would ensure that only cars acquired "legitimately" are traded.

 

[Exorcet]

I only pointed out that the obvious reason for limits is to keep people playing longer. Some people. Not all people. M-kay?

It's not obvious at all. Because it's not even true. It's also not the only way to find longevity.

If the PD's only way to maximize time spent in GT5 is the trade limit or similar, they've failed in making a good game.

 

[arora]

Has anyone mentioned selling x1's on ebay? That and taxing pd's weak ass excuse of servers is why the limit was placed.

No one cares how long you play or don't play the game.