World To End: BMW Working on FWD Car

  • Thread starter Thread starter Joey D
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The X3 is actually perfectly good, it's just badly positioned. Until a new X5 comes out it's too close in size to the X5, and the ride has been made deliberately firm to enable it to handle like a BMW should. But handling doesn't really matter in SUVs, so all it leaves you with is a car that should be comfy but isn't.
 
EA11R
I thought I heard storms of X3 hate?
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As a cranial purchase, an X3 makes no sense. Not enough space to justify the price for the more expensive models (base X5 >>>>>> X3) and, as HFS mentioned, the horrible horrible ride.

But to drive, an X3 is fantastic. Of course... if BMW were to drop the run-flats, the X3 would go from being a cramped, harsh-riding super-handling compact SUV to being a just-right-sized, super-handling compact SUV with a reassuringly firm ride. :lol:
 
homeforsummer
Apparently not, though I see you've decided to no longer talk about the class sizes, so I'm assuming you now concede on that point?
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I didnt continue with that subject because theres no point in continuing to talk about class size if we don't agree. You are entitled to your interpretation as I am mine but I have not 'conceded' anything.

I appreciate the points you have made about brand power, the mini brand in particular and the example of a BMW potential buyers scenario but I still feel its a bad idea for them to be in the small car market.

I have hand on heart only seen 6 1 series, I don't know why its like that round my area but there tend to be loads of larger cars made by premium marques (3 series size and up) and nearly everything supermini size and below is the usual Peugeot's, Ford's, Vauxhall's etc.

Robin.
 
Robin.
I didnt continue with that subject because theres no point in continuing to talk about class size if we don't agree. You are entitled to your interpretation as I am mine but I have not 'conceded' anything.
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With all due respect, it's not interpretation - it's fact. Refer to any car buyers' guide around at the moment. The 1-Series is in the same class as the Focus et al. It's nothing to do with opinion or interpretation. You can ring BMW up if you like, do whatever - the car is in the class it's in.
 
homeforsummer
With all due respect, it's not interpretation - it's fact. Refer to any car buyers' guide around at the moment. The 1-Series is in the same class as the Focus et al. It's nothing to do with opinion or interpretation. You can ring BMW up if you like, do whatever - the car is in the class it's in.
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Indeed. The two people I know who've bought 1-series BMWs both chopped their Ford Focus ST for them...

BINI = Supermini/Subcompact class (Fiesta, Jazz)
1-series = Small family/Compact class (Focus, Golf, Civic, A3)
3-series = Family/Compact Executive class (Mondeo, Passat, Accord, A4)

The Fiesta is 27cm (11 inches) shorter than the 1-series hatch. The Focus is 11cm (4 inches) longer - but just over 2cm (1 inch) shorter than the 1-series coupe.
 
I think trying to pigeon hole every vehicle on the market is a pointless exercise.

What makes a BMW a BMW?
I don't think there is any answer to that question that would rule out a BMW mini-size car. Handling? Comfort? Technology? Performance? Quality? These are all things that BMW can apply to a "0-series". If they do it well then it would deserve a BMW badge.

As far as the FWD thing goes. Its an embarrasing U-Turn that is for sure, but at the end of the day, the product needs to stand up on its own 2 feet (or 4 wheels). And whatever opinions people have about BMW, they make great cars, even the 1 series is a good car. It might not be huge inside, but that's not necessarily a concern for everyone. I'm sure there are plenty of statistics on the web about how many car journeys are made with just 1 person on board.

People just need to get away from thinking about stereotypes so much. If the BMW brand values and quality of product weren't there... then nobody would by the product because the BMW wouldn't mean anything.
 
MatskiMonk
I think trying to pigeon hole every vehicle on the market is a pointless exercise.
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If you're referring to the class size discussion, then you'll apparently be disagreeing with the manufacturers themselves who specifically make cars of certain sizes to compete with others of their ilk...
 
homeforsummer
If you're referring to the class size discussion, then you'll apparently be disagreeing with the manufacturers themselves who specifically make cars of certain sizes to compete with others of their ilk...
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Maybe, or maybe I just had the romantic notion that car manufacturers specifically made cars of certain sizes to give Joe Public choice in what they can buy.

Either way, I still don't quite see the relevance.
 
MatskiMonk
Either way, I still don't quite see the relevance.
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People were confused about where the new BMW was going to be aimed. The discussion was perfectly relevant to the thread, as it was discussing the car in question...
 
A smaller and cheaper car than a 1 series will be aimed at people that don't need/want a car as big or as expensive as the 1 series.
 
EA11R
Should we be offended by the fact that they are SUVs? We understand that a niche manufacturer must occasionally sell an SUV or two to pay the bills. We don't care about the SUVs; they aren't what makes the brand good. (Actually, aren't they kinda crap?) They could be bright pink and made of cork, it doesn't matter. SUVs aren't important.

Cars are different. Cars actually matter in terms of BMW's identity. And a front-wheel-drive car is commonly seen as a surrender to the economy.

As it happens, I like the idea a lot: A MINI that takes itself seriously. Yes please.
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What offends you, if anything, is up to you.

I don't understand why a BMW SUV gets a free pass, but an FWD BMW car wouldn't. That's mostly a rhetorical statement, btw. I'm not looking for an explanation.


M
 
///M-Spec
What offends you, if anything, is up to you.

I don't understand why a BMW SUV gets a free pass, but an FWD BMW car wouldn't. That's mostly a rhetorical statement, btw. I'm not looking for an explanation.


M
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Got to draw a line somewhere.

Personally I don't have a problem with SUV's, and I don't really have a problem with turbo-charging. I'm possibly the only person in the world that likes the X5 and X6 M vehicles... but I have always had a problem with front wheel drive.

Having said that.. I understand the reasons behind it and the market and regulatory pressures that would lead to BMW saying "we need to build a FWD car".. however, what I don't get is why they need to do it when they already have the Mini brand? I can only guess it's because they want better eco numbers for the "BMW brand", rather than the "BMW group".

If they are going to do it, it better be the best FWD hatch on the market, and I do think BMW have the skills to pull it off. Unfortunatley, even if it is... I doubt I could ever learn to love a FWD hatch-back :crazy:
 
MatskiMonk
Having said that.. I understand the reasons behind it and the market and regulatory pressures that would lead to BMW saying "we need to build a FWD car".. however, what I don't get is why they need to do it when they already have the Mini brand? I can only guess it's because they want better eco numbers for the "BMW brand", rather than the "BMW group".
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They'll do it because they'll make money... as has been discussed, this is going to be a big growth segment over the coming years and it's highly likely that this car will deliver incremental sales over those delivered by the Mini.

BMW is a publicly owned business, it needs to make a bigger profit each year... asking why they will make this car when it doesn't seem to fit with part of their current brand identity is similar to asking why Porsche started making mid engined cars (Boxster and Caymen), SUV's (Cayenne) and a big salloon car (Panamera) when their brand equity was rear engined sports cars... they attracted new consumers to the brand and made a HUGE amount of cash out of doing it.
 
To a certain degree I agree with Porsche comparison. But, with the Panamera and the Cayenne they side-stepped into different markets, but still at a very high level - relatively 'niche' (or at least small) markets. BMW are "stooping" to the level of VW/Audi/Seat, Ford, Fiat, Mazda and Opel/Vauxhall, to try and get a piece of a very big market

I guess I get it,... I just don't like it.
 
MatskiMonk
To a certain degree I agree with Porsche comparison. But, with the Panamera and the Cayenne they side-stepped into different markets, but still at a very high level - relatively 'niche' (or at least small) markets. BMW are "stooping" to the level of VW/Audi/Seat, Ford, Fiat, Mazda and Opel/Vauxhall, to try and get a piece of a very big market
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Okay then, the Porsche 924. That was "stooping" into the (relatively) cheap sports car market. In the seventies Ferrari "stooped" into small sports cars with the Dino, with a (shock, horror) V6 engine.

Where do you draw the line? BMW already make the 1-Series, a model below that is water off a duck's back.

I guess I get it,... I just don't like it.
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That's fair enough, and more logical than people inventing reasons as to why it shouldn't exist.
 
The simple fact is that BMW is a mass market manufacturer.

Sure, they produce generally good cars and some of their models are expensive, but the bulk of their sales come from the lower end of each model range (318d/320d, 520d), not the halo models... the 3 series is one of the top 10 best selling cars in the UK IIRC.
 
Famine
Panic over. 80% of 1-series owners already think their car is FWD.
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Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. You often get the impression that BMW enthusiasts seem to think their brand is somehow sacred and that all BMW drivers appreciate rear wheel drive and that they're all proper sports saloons.

The reality is that when 80% of 1-Series drivers think that their car is front-drive, BMWs are equally likely to be owned by the average Joe who bought the car solely for the badge on the bonnet and nothing else. When 3-Series are more common than Ford Mondeos it's hard to make a case for them being some sort of exclusive brand for people who like sports cars.

They're just another volume manufacturer, albeit one that does make cars, even low-end models, that proper enthusiasts can appreciate.

Incidentally, anyone else find the comments on that story funny?

Also a Front Wheel Drive BMW IS NOT a Real BMW!! This is Sack Religious!! IF You WANT A Front Wheel Drive BMW: BUY a MINI!!! Which is a BMW Any Way!
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:lol:

I think that I HAVE to agree with you Andrea! It just boggles the mind that there are soo many People out there that just don't take the time to Educate themself's! I MEAN This IS BMW!!
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:lol:

After Reading all of that Alfa Soup that is the Reason for the Lack of Driving Knowledge, let alone Driving Control!!
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:confused:

Is that like soup garnished with Clover leafs?... More soul in every bowl?

Methinks someone was let near a keyboard too soon.
 
Mmmmm....Alfa soup. It would be poorly made, probably break the bowl it was put in, and would melt the spoon but for that one brief meal that it all came together it would be the best damn soup in the world.
 
I'm surprised at the survey results... surprised that 20% of 1-series owners actually cared enough to find out which wheels on their cars were the driven ones. As good as the 1-series is to drive, the biggest reason for its success is the fact that the aspirationally minded now have a BMW they can buy that's cheaper than a stripper 3-series.

Probably the same thing with the Mini... many owners probably don't really care that it handles like a go-kart... they're just buying it for the badge and looks. (not Joey though... I think your last photo session shows you know what a Mini is meant for... :D )

MatskiMonk
Got to draw a line somewhere.

Personally I don't have a problem with SUV's, and I don't really have a problem with turbo-charging. I'm possibly the only person in the world that likes the X5 and X6 M vehicles... but I have always had a problem with front wheel drive.

snip

...Unfortunatley, even if it is... I doubt I could ever learn to love a FWD hatch-back :crazy:
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Here's the funny thing. I've driven the X5 and X6 (and the X6 I drove was arguably the best balanced one... the twin-turbo 3 liter gasoline one with the twin piston front brakes... some reviewers are of the opinion the X6 M is just way too nose heavy). And while I actually liked driving them, neither was as fun or involving as a good "warm" hatch.

Roundabout:

Mini Cooper S = neutral on corner entry... slight understeer... tip on the brakes... oversteer... countersteer... hit the gas... four-wheel drift... four-wheel drift... four-wheel drift... floor it... exit with the tires squealing, the LSD chattering and a grin on your face.

X6M = neutral... neutral... neutral... understeer... (computers juggling brakes, differentials, anti-roll-bars)... neutral... understeer... (more juggling)... neutral... floor it... (computers juggling differentials some more...) ...exit with no wheelspin... no drama... and no tail-out action... fun, yes, but about as involving as riding a rollercoaster.

Again... FWD BMWs? Bring it on. If they can make them at least as good as a Mini, they're halfway there.
 
niky
Here's the funny thing. I've driven the X5 and X6 (and the X6 I drove was arguably the best balanced one... the twin-turbo 3 liter gasoline one with the twin piston front brakes... some reviewers are of the opinion the X6 M is just way too nose heavy). And while I actually liked driving them, neither was as fun or involving as a good "warm" hatch.

Roundabout:

Mini Cooper S = neutral on corner entry... slight understeer... tip on the brakes... oversteer... countersteer... hit the gas... four-wheel drift... four-wheel drift... four-wheel drift... floor it... exit with the tires squealing, the LSD chattering and a grin on your face.

X6M = neutral... neutral... neutral... understeer... (computers juggling brakes, differentials, anti-roll-bars)... neutral... understeer... (more juggling)... neutral... floor it... (computers juggling differentials some more...) ...exit with no wheelspin... no drama... and no tail-out action... fun, yes, but about as involving as riding a rollercoaster.
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To be fair, I've driven neither a Cooper S (only a standard One), and neither the current X5 or X6 (only an E53), and as neither were mine I kept things nice and smooth...

.. however, I suspect the real issue is driver aids/electronics. I've not had a BMW yet that on a roundabout won't slide with nothing more than lift-off oversteer rapidly followed by a bootful of right foot (with the possible exception of my current 525 tourer - which seems to have boundless grip at the rear wheels). I think something the bulk of the X M's wouldnt be drivable at maximum attack without a thick layer of electronics between the driver and the tarmac, but if the end result is obscenely rapid progress then I'm sure many drivers might not care.

Wheelspin whilst exiting a corner at speed in front wheel drive is one of the most pathetically annoying sensations to have whilst driving IMO, and power understeer is probably the biggest reason I dislike FWD.


homeforsummer
.
The reality is that when 80% of 1-Series drivers think that their car is front-drive, BMWs are equally likely to be owned by the average Joe who bought the car solely for the badge on the bonnet and nothing else.
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Since the announcement that BMW would be making a smaller cheaper car I've seen a lot of comments like that... and I think it is slightly short sighted, you may buy a car just for the badge... but to tarnish everyone with the same judgement is unfair. Okay, so people aren't buying them because they are RWD... does that automatically mean they are just badge-whores, is it not possible that they are buying them because they look good, drive well, and are pretty well built?


Some people just aren't car people. When my boss picked up his latest A6 he was chatting with a rep that had an A4, the rep asked "is it four wheel drive", to which my boss answered "no, it's a quattro".
 
MatskiMonk
Wheelspin whilst exiting a corner at speed in front wheel drive is one of the most pathetically annoying sensations to have whilst driving IMO, and power understeer is probably the biggest reason I dislike FWD.
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That's why God invented the automatic torque biasing LSD ;)

MatskiMonk
Since the announcement that BMW would be making a smaller cheaper car I've seen a lot of comments like that... and I think it is slightly short sighted, you may buy a car just for the badge... but to tarnish everyone with the same judgement is unfair. Okay, so people aren't buying them because they are RWD... does that automatically mean they are just badge-whores, is it not possible that they are buying them because they look good, drive well, and are pretty well built?
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They don't look good, they're one of the worst proportioned cars every built. And a majority of 1-series are probably used for city-centre and motorway driving. Most have probably never seen or never will see a challenging open B-road. The 1-series, like the BMW Compact and Merc CLC-Class, are aspirational cars bought/leased by folks who previously had a Golf or an A3.
 
MatskiMonk
Since the announcement that BMW would be making a smaller cheaper car I've seen a lot of comments like that... and I think it is slightly short sighted, you may buy a car just for the badge... but to tarnish everyone with the same judgement is unfair.
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He didn't He said that BMW were equally likely to be owned by such individuals.
 
Famine
He didn't He said that BMW were equally likely to be owned by such individuals.
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I took it mean that he was implying that if 80% of people didn't know where their driven wheels were then an equal number (80%) of BMW buyers were only buying for the badge. I may have mis-interpreted?

TheCraker
They don't look good, they're one of the worst proportioned cars every built. And a majority of 1-series are probably used for city-centre and motorway driving. Most have probably never seen or never will see a challenging open B-road. The 1-series, like the BMW Compact and Merc CLC-Class, are aspirational cars bought/leased by folks who previously had a Golf or an A3
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Well, whether of not you like appearance is a bit subjective, but I doubt people would buy them if thought they were ugly? Is the lure of the BMW badge that strong? And I live in a small town, surrounded by challenging B-roads, I see plenty of 1ers about, so although I'm not suggesting that every 1 series driver is a budding Travis Pastrana, they are no more of an Urban commuting vehicle than most other cars out there.
 
MatskiMonk
I took it mean that he was implying that if 80% of people didn't know where their driven wheels were then an equal number (80%) of BMW buyers were only buying for the badge. I may have mis-interpreted?
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It's equally likely that someone buying a prestige marque like BMW is doing it because it's a prestige marque like BMW as it is that they're doing it because it's a good car like a BMW.
 
Famine
It's equally likely that someone buying a prestige marque like BMW is doing it because it's a prestige marque like BMW as it is that they're doing it because it's a good car like a BMW.
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Equally possible that is what he meant. I guess it's lucky for them that there is a good car attached to the back of the badge then!
 
Yes, you can get an X5 sideways. As long as you get a lower-end model without the new Dynamic drive... but the thing is...

It's still a two-ton SUV. Never in a million years will it feel as lairy, as nimble or as adjustable as a Mini. At least they drive better than the 7-series (which really is amazing for such a big saloon, but still drives like a big saloon).

Front-wheel drive understeer? That's the part of the equation that saves your bacon and which allows you to draw out and enjoy the slide, where you'd be see-sawing frantically and dancing on the pedals in a rear-wheel drive to keep the slide from progressing into something terminally scary.

When people say that an Evo or an STi is great for sliding around... what they mean is that when you get on the power, they do the same thing a front-driver does when you get on the power... straighten out. Only they have more driving traction, so they get more forward acceleration out of that slide than a front-driver.

Say what you might... there are things that BMW have done that are more damaging to their "Ultimate Driving Machine" reputation than building a front-wheel drive car.
 
niky
Front-wheel drive understeer? That's the part of the equation that saves your bacon and which allows you to draw out and enjoy the slide, where you'd be see-sawing frantically and dancing on the pedals in a rear-wheel drive to keep the slide from progressing into something terminally scary.
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I thought that was the fun part! ;) surely though that only comes down to experience? I span all the FWD cars I've had at some stage, accidentally, and had numerous other tank-slappers. It's only happened once during ownership of 5 Bimmers - (and to be fair I did get that one back.. Its just I was already in the hedge when I straightened it up!)... I put this solely down to the fact the I had alot less experience back in the days when I was driving FWD cars.

niky
Say what you might... there are things that BMW have done that are more damaging to their "Ultimate Driving Machine" reputation than building a front-wheel drive car.
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That maybe true.
 

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