World To End: BMW Working on FWD Car

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MatskiMonk
I took it mean that he was implying that if 80% of people didn't know where their driven wheels were then an equal number (80%) of BMW buyers were only buying for the badge. I may have mis-interpreted?
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Indeed you did.

BMWs are as likely to be bought on the badge alone as they are for any perceived superiority in terms of the way they drive. This is borne out by statistics like the 80% of 1-Series owners - if such a massive proportion doesn't realise which wheels are driven, it's fairly safe to assume that BMWs being RWD isn't really a concern to them. A fair proportion probably don't even know what the difference between FWD and RWD even is.

I appreciate that there are a number of proper BMW enthusiasts on this board who more than likely appreciate the cars for what they do rather than what they are, but I strongly suspect that a large proportion of BMW drivers bought their cars for the badge on the bonnet rather than because it's got great balance on the limit, or because it's got a great engine. Just like how for every Prius driven by a hypermiler, there are a dozen more who drive it like they stole it and wonder why they aren't hitting the published fuel figures.

Maybe I am being unfair on the majority of BMW drivers. Maybe they have chosen them because they explore the limits of adhesion and enjoy uncorrupted steering. But I suspect not.
 
On the subject of BMW's owner image is it now safe to say the bully boy outside lane hogging rtard mantle has been passed on to Audi drivers so we can now drive them shame free?

I need a fairly big car and I'm considering a 3 series estate as my next car so will I still look like a ****?
 
Hmmm... BMW CEO says ''Ready for front wheel drive''.

Norbert Reithofer
“It is true about 80 percent of the 1-series owners we surveyed either thought their car was front wheel drive or that they didn’t know the layout. But these were the drivers of the three and five-door hatchback models.”

“However, nearly all the owners of 1-series coupe models knew their car was rear-wheel drive. These buyers appreciate the driving dynamics of rear-drive. But for other owners they bought the 1-series because of the engineering and the quality and engine performance and so on.”

“This research has helped us to be confident that BMW can build front-drive cars in a new market segment. But the next 1-series, when it is launched in 18 months or so, will be rear-wheel drive, as will all the future variants.”
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Time are changing and this move, while unpopular, could turn out to be a great move by BMW. In the end, several years ago, they went through a similar state when BMW announced their entrance into the SUV market, a move that turned out to be very beneficial for BMW. Porsche has done it as well…

evilneal
I need a fairly big car and I'm considering a 3 series estate as my next car so will I still look like a ****?
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In my opinion, I don't care... If you like the car, buy it or if you hesitate of it, don't. But the 3 Series Touring is a good car and better design in my opinion among the others.
 
MatskiMonk
I think... The Rover 75 was a FWD platform developed by BMW during it's ownership of Rover.
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It was, which is why it had a central tunnel enabling them to build the RWD Mustang engined version. They say that the tunnel wasn't there so it could be transformed into a RWD, but because their chassis building knowledge is based on having a transmission tunnel there for the strength.
 
homeforsummer
Maybe I am being unfair on the majority of BMW drivers. Maybe they have chosen them because they explore the limits of adhesion and enjoy uncorrupted steering. But I suspect not.
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Most BMW drivers I know picked their car over a Mercedes or Audi or Lexus due to the driving feel of the car. A BMW tends to be more engaging than its peers in the same class, regardless of configuration. Even the AWD STi turbo fanatics I know that have tested AWD BMW 3 series comment on how engaging the car is while not over doing it.

The brand I see purchased most on badge prestige alone would be Mercedes-Benz. That three point star is a compelling item.
 
MatskiMonk
So would you say the same is true of Mercedes, Audi and Lexus buyers?
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Essentially. Especially nowadays. You can get a Skoda that's as well-built and probably more comfortable than the equivalent Audi (the Superb). Image counts for a lot.

Put it this way. Do people buy the Mercedes A-Class because it's a good small car, or because it's a cheap Mercedes?...

Incidentally, note that I'm mainly referring to lower-end models. Once you start going higher then brand loyalty comes into it too. Someone who drives a 7-Series likely drives it because their last five or six cars have all been BMWs and they've been happy with the brand with no reason to change.

I have an uncle who currently has a Range Rover Sport. He hates it. He didn't like the old Mercedes C240 he used to drive either, and isn't keen on his wife's Audi. He's also owned an X5 in the past and loved it - his next car will be another X5, without a doubt. He's experienced many of the premium brands, but prefers BMW to the others.

Someone who buys a 1-Series or maybe even a 3-Series is likely new to the brand. Ditto an A-Class or B-Class, or an Audi A3, etc. Unless they're particularly clued-up to the brand's heritage or relative USPs of the cars themselves, they're more than likely buying them based on the badge they like the best.

I'm trying to think of another example. MINI perhaps. Some buyers get it because it handles well. The majority, I suspect, buy it because it's either "cute" or "cool".

Azuremen
Most BMW drivers I know picked their car over a Mercedes or Audi or Lexus due to the driving feel of the car. A BMW tends to be more engaging than its peers in the same class, regardless of configuration. Even the AWD STi turbo fanatics I know that have tested AWD BMW 3 series comment on how engaging the car is while not over doing it.

The brand I see purchased most on badge prestige alone would be Mercedes-Benz. That three point star is a compelling item.
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I agree with you.

It's worth noting though the clip I highlighted bold. I suspect a lot of people you know are driving enthusiasts, like yourself. People like you do pick the car on driving feel rather than solely the badge. You may like the badge as a result, but you've not bought the car solely for the brand.
 
Well, according to auto-bild via World Car Fans.. this is what a FWD BMW will look like.

The "1-series GT", or "Compactive Tourer"

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Should be official in a few hours apparently.

Well, I don't hate it, but it's not what I was hoping for. Some of the smaller details will obviously change since this is still a 'concept', but to me the front end looks a little too fussy and organic...
 
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The front end will be an interesting one. I'm not sure that render has nailed it. I'd expect something more similar to the BMW i3, than what looks like a cut-down 5GT.

As for the proportions, it's not dissimilar to the new A-Class. Which is to be expected really, given that it'll be a direct rival.
 
homeforsummer
The front end will be an interesting one. I'm not sure that render has nailed it.
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That's not a render, it's a (slightly doctored - the guy in red!) official release photo.. at least according to SCOTT at Bimmerforums.

The production car may look slightly different, but that is how the concept car looks.

bmw-active-tourer-3.jpg


1.5l 3 cylinder engine... possibly 112mpg / 60g CO2 thanks to an electric motor.

Errm, I *think* I like it.
 
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By jingo, you're right:

BMW Concept Active Tourer

bmw-concept-active-tourer-2012-paris-auto-show_100402270_l.jpg


bmw-concept-active-tourer-2012-paris-auto-show_100402271_l.jpg


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I don't mind it. Looks sporty enough, though how it'd work as a production car with maybe 16" wheels I'm not sure.

Can't argue with that fuel economy either. And if it handles like a MINI, then we've little to worry about.

And part of me would still prefer a 1-Series...
 
Meh, between the 1-series and the MINI... as long as you remove the yards of negative camber in the rear of the MINI, there's little to choose between them. Then you go up to the 135i or 135M, cars which could theoretically kill you if you looked at them wrong, and they do the same thing to the suspension setting that they do with the MINIs.

This will be a good move for BMW. People who actually buy cars couldn't care less about having RWD in a base Bimmer. If it really looks that good and gets that much economy, it'll be a fantastic success.
 
Article
Power output from the hybrid drivetrain is a reasonable 190 horsepower, getting the Active Tourer to 62 mph in under 8 seconds. Top speed is about 124 mph, and it achieves a claimed average fuel consumption of 94 mpg.
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Now with this, and the fact the 328i is getting 42mpg in the US in many cases, I kind of react like this when people tell me they want to by a Prius for the MPG...

VOdGA.gif
 
Claimed 42 mpg versus actual 55-60+ highway mpg... No contest. Yes, buying the Prius simply to save money doesn't work in anything but the extreme long run with 30-50k miles per year, but don't underestimate how well it saves gas.
 
niky
Meh, between the 1-series and the MINI... as long as you remove the yards of negative camber in the rear of the MINI, there's little to choose between them. Then you go up to the 135i or 135M, cars which could theoretically kill you if you looked at them wrong, and they do the same thing to the suspension setting that they do with the MINIs.
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It's more the 1-Series - and I genuinely do mean this - for its looks. I've always quite liked it, and I quite like the new one too. The proportions look odd to some, but to me they have a shooting brake look, like a modern day Reliant Scimitar. Plus in the old one, an I6 in the 130i.

But you're right, a FWD one would certainly sell well. And BMW will always have RWD options for actual enthusiasts.
 
I quite liked the looks of the old. The pug snout was cute. The new one... Just too much unused acreage in the front fascia.
 
niky
I quite liked the looks of the old. The pug snout was cute. The new one... Just too much unused acreage in the front fascia.
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It's certainly not perfect, but at a stroke it's made the previous one look old. Modern BMWs have a knack of making their predecessors instantly look dated. It's a fairly recent thing, partly influenced by taking slightly larger strides in design these days.
 
Make it 3dr, RWD biased AWD with turbo and I shall approve this abomination.
 
niky
Claimed 42 mpg versus actual 55-60+ highway mpg... No contest. Yes, buying the Prius simply to save money doesn't work in anything but the extreme long run with 30-50k miles per year, but don't underestimate how well it saves gas.
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That isn't claimed - it is real world driving from owners over on F30post.com. My friend and I have been keeping track of the numbers because, well, we are quite curious about it.

I've not met anyone to get 60mpg from their Prius in the real world.

NissanSkylineN1
Prove it. Because from what I've found, it gets 23/34 mpg. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Powe...h=7&year=2013&make=BMW&model=328i&srchtyp=ymm
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Oh hai, you can google EPA numbers. Good job.

People are getting 35mpg in the 335i with mostly highway driving, including Autobahn speeds. I've seen trips where the average for highway driving was 45mpg in the 328i. Generally from owners with the 8 speed automatic, but the point still stands. I've been reading this on various BMW forums, and it isn't just what the MPG gauge is reading out, but actual mileage based on fill ups in many cases. Plus, people are finding the in car computer is accurate to about 5% generally. Just Google around forums a bit more for real world mpg figures, certainly trust thousands of miles of real world driving over a bit of time on some rollers that the EPA does.

And if we want to get serious on being a fuel miser, the 320d owners are averaging, combined cycle, over 50mpg in many cases.
 
daan
Fuelly begs to differ. The 2012 328 averages 23-24mpg and the 2012 Prius averages 48-49mpg.
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The high numbers I've been stating are mostly highway figures, which I also made sure to mention.

Though we are also comparing 10 328i's to 280 Prius, and half those BMW's haven't had 10 fill ups yet, so not even broken in.

I'm not saying the 328i gets better MPG than the Prius. I'm saying it gets damn good MPG to the point that buying a Prius solely for MPG reasons is starting to look daft. Then you look at the Prius V, which is averaging 42mpg, and Toyota's hybrids look even less impressive. More so when this 1 series Hybrid is going to be faster and even if they are off by 50% with the MPG estimates, will still get better figures than the Prius V. And they aren't going to be off by that much.
 
Azuremen
The high numbers I've been stating are mostly highway figures, which I also made sure to mention.
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Not at first.

Azuremen
Now with this, and the fact the 328i is getting 42mpg in the US in many cases,
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Azuremen
That isn't claimed - it is real world driving from owners over on F30post.com.
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Oh, here it is.
Azuremen
I've seen trips where the average for highway driving was 45mpg in the 328i.
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And it's now up 3 mpg since you mentioned it... :sly:

My point is, there are Priuseseses there that can and have attained an average of 60mpg. The best a 328 has done is 30mpg. If it can reach 42mpg under highway conditions, why hasn't anyone done it? Or even got anywhere near it? Not everyone on fuelly can have lead feet.
 
Highway driving is a large part of many commutes here, so I tend to look at those numbers quite a bit. My apologies for not immediately clarifying that :rolleyes:

The number went up because as I dug more, I found even higher MPG figures being returned by the trip computers and fill up calculations. People are doing this, and I linked to one instance already. The 45mpg is an extreme figure, but 30mpg is hardly the best I am finding in my research.

And again, your Fuelly source has ten samples. 10.

Also, the 42mpg I mentioned earlier


Azuremen
Generally from owners with the 8 speed automatic, but the point still stands. I've been reading this on various BMW forums, and it isn't just what the MPG gauge is reading out, but actual mileage based on fill ups in many cases.
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Azuremen
Oh hai, you can google EPA numbers. Good job.
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What a beautiful attitude you have.

Azuremen
And again, your Fuelly source has ten samples. 10.
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So, if we only have 11 samples of 328i MPG data, by your terms, isnt that not enough to consider the 328i to be capable of doing 42/45 (make up your mind already..) MPG?


BMW states its MPG is 34 MPG, the US MPG ratings are 23/34, and the Canadian government says its 21/33. Should I trust them, or your claim that is supported by one picture?
 
NissanSkylineN1
BMW states its MPG is 34 MPG, the US MPG ratings are 23/34, and the Canadian government says its 21/33. Should I trust them, or your claim that is supported by one picture?
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And government tests are built off even less data than daan's fuelly figures, you know this? You really should never trust the government about anything, seriously.

As for BMW's numbers, they also tend to under-rate the power figures on their cars by a noticeable amount, and give conservative numbers so they don't deal with negative PR from exaggerated claims. More so when Honda has to recently deal with a class action lawsuit because of such a thing.

Considering there are more than a few instances of this and these cars have been out for less than a year, I'm fairly confident this isn't going to be a limited a couple of choice cases. And honestly, battling a turbo petrol versus a purpose built hybrid is a bit funny. Compare the 328i's performance and power numbers to anything from Japan with similar figures and it is just laughable.
 

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