would it LITERALLY KILL the Polyphony developers to start us in any place other than last?
- Thread starter Pizzapants
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if the AI were competent, if it were rewarding to finish anywhere other than 1st, and if you were not able to retry, then you would perhaps think differently. I tried dirt 2.0, and you have a limit of 5 retries over the course of an event, which has so far been 4 to 6 tracks. im not very good and of course haven't practiced nearly as much as on gt, but it's very fun and the AI is competitive
Pigems
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- TT_Pigems
AI is lifeless, and runs pre scripted lines race after race. You can’t ever force them into a mistake, in any way, or to change their lines, they will plow through you if you get in front of them, even in iRacing, there is just nothing fun about it what so ever. After racing with real people, I could never in a million years enjoy an AI race ever again. It’s just boring, no matter how good they are.
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- 2,317
I didn't claim anything, not that you care. The cars in GT doesn't just get a head start (as evidenced in this thread) they also get boosts or nerfs during the race and depending on the event, everything is done (in an obviously primitive and pretty rough way) to keep the races interesting.
If we got grid starts and "real" racing without the game helping to keep things interesting most races would be over the first time the player makes a mistake. Lucky for everyone there is sport mode that can fulfil all these wishes.
- 285
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- Bread_45
I must confess that the "start 20 sec behind - chase rabbit" is starting to get on my wick. It'd be fine to have this in the missions (there are some missions specifically like that), but in a general race it's lame.
Narrow or walled tracks are the worst, the AI drives conservatively so there's effectively a rolling roadblock and your racing lines are limited in choice. So you either have to thread the eye of a needle time after time, corner badly with a powerful car and out drag them on the straights, or "cheat" by wallriding or divebombing.
Qualify and race would be the best, but even if they started us mid grid it'd work. State a "par" PP value with standard payouts, and increase payout if you use a weaker car. So even if the AI can't compete with very good humans, the humans could always detune their car for more challenge.
Narrow or walled tracks are the worst, the AI drives conservatively so there's effectively a rolling roadblock and your racing lines are limited in choice. So you either have to thread the eye of a needle time after time, corner badly with a powerful car and out drag them on the straights, or "cheat" by wallriding or divebombing.
Qualify and race would be the best, but even if they started us mid grid it'd work. State a "par" PP value with standard payouts, and increase payout if you use a weaker car. So even if the AI can't compete with very good humans, the humans could always detune their car for more challenge.
- 3,603
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- voodoovaj
This is an interesting take.
Have you ever watched a real race? Cars crash. Cars fail. Cars go off track. It's rare that a race ends with all it's entrants. So, who cars if people go off track. or if people leave the race? That IS why people race. And what do you care about the track limits? When track limits are exceeded online, people are penalized (unless the host turns this off). I mean, I could post video upon video of this occurring in real life, but it's obvious.
Alan Turing, considered the father of AI, said that (I am paraphrasing) that AI should make you believe it's intelligent. The GT AI most definitely fails, so one could argue that it isn't even AI. It also isn't racing, since racing is a competition, and the AI cars are not actually competing against you.
And if "99%" of the players that you've seen online can't stay on track, I have some serious doubts about where you are participating online.
Again, I honestly find this curious....so, are you claiming that you play the game year upon year, playing the same 100% predictable AI races over and over and over, for enjoyment????? Like, you actually enjoy it?
Why do you guys even bother playing a racing game at all if you don't like to race? That's like me hating soccer, but playing FIFA religiously.
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- 1,492
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Mostly, but they dont always finish the same, and depending on the car they actually have different lines they run.
But the same would go for a good driver: there is one line for the best speed and except for someone blocking it, there is no reason to driver different, so what is the problem there?
The AI
has a godlike sense of traction
has bad reaction speed (which is why so many people claim to be pushed carelessly)
adheres to racing rules (but wont see any penalties)
uses different lines depending on car setup
will use racing lines as long as they are not lapped
will try to overtake mostly on straights and fall back into drafting if unsuccesful
will follow a lead car to stay in drafting range
will yield when they are lapped
does mistakes, but very rarely (as to expect of a good driver)
For the AI we cant tell which setup they are running, so we cant even tell if they are restricted by PP the event lists.
I have not seen any "boost" or "nerf" during a race yet.
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- voodoovaj
(@Meythia I am not singling you out, I am just using this post to make a point)
I'm really dazzled by where this thread is going, so I want to clarify what is being stated over and over again.
The claim is that GT7's single player AI is a better experience than racing real people.
First off, I will say (and sorry if this offends some) that if playing online is the horrendous crash fest that some are claiming, the problem is likely your skill level and you rating, not the game. Personally, I don't see the reckless disasters that are being claimed. Are their people who race like idiots? Yes, of course, that's reality, but it's no where near the level of the hyperbole here.
On the flip side, the AI will hit me like I am not even there, failing to do even the most simple of collision checks, tossing me into the wall.
The big difference is that I can tell when someone will do something dumb, and avoid it, while in single player, they hit you when the expectation is that they should totally avoid you.
If there are people who are defending GT's AI/Single player as superior to multiplayer, then you should never complain about the single player experience ever again because, in your own arguments, the AI is performing superior to real humans, which would be a huge accomplishment. Then, if your positions are valid, there is no need for PD to "improve" the race set up. It is already better than real people can deliver.
GT7 single player? Absolutely not. Other single player racing games? For me, yes.
I and everyone else who prefers single player gaming knows what multiplayer can offer. We know that AI will never (at least in our lifetime, probably) be able to replicate human opponents, and everything that comes with them. We accept that, but for us, the negatives of online gaming outweigh the positives.
So since GT7 is terrible, I'll use Project CARS 2 to finish illustrating my position.
When I play single player, the following is true:
- I can play any race, with any permutations, any car, any track etc at ANY time. There will always be a full grid of cars for me to race against, no matter what time it is.
- I can set the AI to race at or about my skill level, all the time. Every AI car on the grid, within a few percentage points as they vary performance like I do.
- I know the AI will all behave fairly. They will make mistakes, but they won't ram me on purpose without braking. They won't swerve into me on a straight.
- The AI will never quit because they're losing.
- I don't have to worry about connection issues, either mine, or the game/servers.
- There is no risk of hearing annoying noises/voices from other players.
- With the AI driven game there is a career mode I can work through, zero to hero, making logical step ups.
And in turn, the following is true of online multiplayer:
- You are regularly dictated what you can play, and when.
- If you play the game at 5am you're likely going to end up with a race of 7 cars.
- The skill level of players in any race can be wildly different. Some races you may be the fastest, some races it may be you vs one other person with the rest romping away. Even with matchmaking, the chances of you being paired with 16 people at or about your skill level is low.
- Humans can be assholes. They will ram you on purpose. They will swerve into you and whatever else. They can ruin the fun.
- I have to worry about connection issues. A race can be ended midway through, or 29 minutes into a 30 minute race.
- Unless you can turn it off (can't always), you might have to put up with annoying people on mics.
- There is no progression, it's just a series of random races in random cars.
I get why some people don't mind all those negatives because of the positives, but we're all different. I greatly prefer the positives of single player, just accepting that the AI won't be quite so human in behaviour.
But no, not in GT. GT single player hasn't appealed to me since GT4, really. I played through 5, got bored and didn't finish 6 or S. Mostly because it hasn't changed or got better and I have, I'm not 15 any more, I have higher standards.
Has it still not dawned on you that not everyone plays games to be competitive and sporting? I play games to relax and have fun, that's it. I don't care if I'm not racing and beating the elite drivers. You can't seem to fathom that we're all wired differently. You just laugh and sarcastically tell us to enjoy the AI racing/participation trophies, not understanding that we actually will.
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- 3,603
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- voodoovaj
Ok, but this is the Gran Turismo 7 sub forum of the Gran Turismo forum. Sorry to state the obvious. But if the answer is to go play other games, that's not really part of the discussion.
I could go play FIFA as well. So, let's stick to GT (really, I'm not being a dick, let's keep it on topic)
Sure, but in GT, this is custom race and it's terrible
Again, not in GT though...but, oddly enough, totally possible given that the game tracks your skill level via the license tests.
But in GT, they do - on the regular
- I absolutely hate this about playing single player.But really, who cares? Like, seriously, who cares? If the race starts with 20 people, and 5 people rage quit, it doesn't impact me at all.
But the game can crash
Same as multiplayer, at least in Sport Mode.
Well....that's arguable. GT kind of has this. Still it could be much better for little effort. GTSport was actually better at this because of the handicap bonus.
Again, I'll stick to GT because that's what we are discussing
Other than the time of day, Isn't that the same as a single player event? Custom race = Lobby host, so that's the same. Single player events are predetermined for you, so you are "dictated what you can play".
Not sure what you're playing. I have never seen an empty Sport Mode room. If you are talking about Lobbies, then this is a fair point, but only within a region. Given that the game is global, someone is always playing somewhere.
But again, I hear you, and relying solely on the P2P lobby system is a GT failing that I have been against since GT5. Sony should host servers that regularly cycle through preset events. It can randomly choose PP Levels, car class (street vs racing, etc.)2-3 tire choices, and randomize tracks. This should be a feature. Kind of like Sport Mode now, but with more variety. In fact, that's what I thought they would evolve Sport Mode into, but they've done nothing
I guess that depends on how low your skill level is. I always face fairly consistent skill levels. But, surprisingly, when someone (or a group) is MUCH better than I am, I accept that they are better and I do my best.
Besides, with GT's pepper races, this is also the case. The Lago Mission had me on my toes lapping in the 1:57's...that's a pretty decent pace. Not for the beginner, that's for sure, but if it adjusted to a player's level of play, woudl there be any achievement in winning it? On this point, I actually don't mind if the difficulty is fixed.
Well, yes, this does happen, but it's far less frequent that people make it out to be, and it could be a byproduct of where you are playing.
The AI in GT does this and it's more frustrating. I hear what you are saying, and we've all been there, but to state this like it happens every race is a bit extreme.
Again, and your PS can crash. It happens. Now, of course, the big issue with GT7 is that the lobbies are less stable, and even Sport has been a little less stable. Coulda, woulda, shoulda, Sony should HOST some of their own servers.
Heck, they can even get sponsors to host servers. EA used to do that (I don't know if they still do). But, as an example, Nissan can host a server and all the races feature Nissan cars. That's be sweet. Same for all the manufacturers. It's not THAT expensive for servers. Advertisers can totally do it.
"The Monster Energy 550pp series" "Redbull presents the Redbull Junior series"...etc. It's fairly trivial to make this happen. It just takes a desire to do it.
Again, GT7, I have not experienced this. When it happens, I mute the person. It's a minor annoyance at worst.
There's progression in Sport Mode, which is why it continues to be popular. It's also nonlinear progression. If you do poorly, you regress. It's BETTER than progression because it's endless.
But again, we're talking GT here.
Heck, Melbourne House did 24hours of LeMans for PS2 and it was GREAT!!! But it's not Gran Turismo. We all know that good single player CAN be done. IMHO, based on the evidence of execution, I wholeheartedly belive PD is a skeleton staff of developers with no game designers. It's probably 90% artists with a team of a dozen coders. They are so low on the spectrum of possibilities, even with the features they currently have, that the only answer is minimal effort.
in another thread, maybe even this one, I said that if they had a grid start, 5 chili pepper, single player race, it would be a quick fix. It might be the best GT single player race in 2 decades.
Well, yes, precisely this. I mean PRECISELY this. I agree 100%. The only saving grace of GT, from a competition stand point, is multiplayer. Beyond that, it's just you vs you.
And, You vs You is OK, IF it's actually used as a direction in the game design. In GTSport, it was better, because you received a bonus for handicapping yourself. Also, I can race my ghost.
Want to know another fairly doable feature to make the AI better? Have the game take your sector times (which it saved in GTSport) and have that blended with the AI's pace. The game can even save your inputs for that best lap and blend that input timing with the AI's input timing. It would be You vs You on a more grand scale, and as you get better, the AI would evolve.
And this is my big beef with GT7....I can sit here, while taking a break from real work, and rattle off a myriad of simple solutions to GT's problems, and I KNOW that they are reasonable, simple, solutions. I mean, if they started this at the beginning of the pandemic, and all worked remotely, I could still provide solutions that would have been better than what they have done, which is essentially nothing.
Oh, I get it. It's the fact that this is not enjoyable that irks me so. Not that playing versus AI is a fool's errand, it's that they have left it to be so tedious, and all because of inaction. I don't want to have to commit to an hour long play session in one race to have a decent experience.
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@Voodoovaj obviously this is GT, I was just giving you/others a broad explanation for why I prefer single player racing. The same applies to all game genres as well, I simply don't enjoy multiplayer gaming in general. But yeah, off topic really.
In terms of GT and this thread, I'd just like to see them take it from a 4/10 experience to a 6/10 experience. It'll still not be as good as other games, but it'll be fun enough that I can enjoy the things about the game that are good, the vehicle dynamics, the tracks, the weather etc. But this catch up format? No. It was the reason I didn't finish 6 or S.
In terms of GT and this thread, I'd just like to see them take it from a 4/10 experience to a 6/10 experience. It'll still not be as good as other games, but it'll be fun enough that I can enjoy the things about the game that are good, the vehicle dynamics, the tracks, the weather etc. But this catch up format? No. It was the reason I didn't finish 6 or S.
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McLaren
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The Tsukuba Chilli Event, is probably the best due to the random AI and starting in the top half of the grid Start. I’ve lost bad, won by a number plate thickness and won by some car lengths. PD are competent to start us at any position. Why they do what they do? We’ll never know.
- 3,603
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
Sure they do. It's not as often, but it happens, but, as I have said multiple times, who cares? Why is quitting such an issue? What races are you guys partaking in where people leaving has any impact at all?
I can honestly say that, since GT5, I have never been in a competitive race where someone quitting had anything but a positive outcome. Whether it was a league, or GTSport, people quitting has never been a bad thing.
Are you joining servers with 2 people or something? Seriously, what gives? Who cares if some stranger decides to quit? That's his choice, not mine.
Here's an extreme example - I join a 20 person race, everyone rage quits...I win, I collect all the money. Sweet deal. What am I missing?
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- 3,603
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
Of course, to each his own.
I've started to state it more and more, but I chalk it up to manpower. There is no other answer (not even greed).
Whereas other devs have dedicated designers, PD doesn't seem to have any (regardless of credits). The proof of their work is absent. It's so simple too. I've said it before. there is "NO LOVE" in the making of the single player.
You are 100% correct. There are EASY EASY EASY EASY (as in already evidenced in the game) ways to fix the experience, but they just said "meh"
McLaren
Premium
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- Texas
You're arguing for something that hasn't been debated....
Someone made a claim about how much better online racing is because it's actual racing unlike the AI which serve as moving barricades and don't provide real racing. Someone else pointed out that at least the AI all stay in and finish unlike folks who quit because they weren't 1st or 2nd out of turn 3, & therefore can put a damper on the whole, "actual racing". Whether or not it's "an issue" or has "any impact" is irrelevant to the original counterpoint; it's legitimate reasoning for some who don't like online racing.
If you want to deep dive more into this, that's your time to spend. This thread has already displayed a small sense of, "You guys play the game wrong" entitlement & you've been co-signing some of it.
FPV MIC
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- GT-MIC
I haven't raced in an online lobby yet so I'm not sure about GT7 but in earlier games your pay-out was directly affected by the numbers of participants that were still running (or even parked as we used to do if we got a phone call or something), so in your extreme example you would have got nothing. Is this still the case?
At the very least in sport mode the whole room loses DR/SR when someone quits, so if you're on the bubble it can turn your race from a +DR to -DR.
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- TPC_Raccooon23
- CRaccoon23
In regard to this AI vs. real people debate, they both have their place for me.
GT’s AI objectively isn’t good; there’s no denying that. However, when I boot up GT7, I’m not always in the mood for the intense and competitive racing that Sport mode offers. Sometimes I just want to relax and drive, so the AI is quite good for that since they hardly put up a fight. Obviously though, PD should still aim to make them more challenging and a better experience to race against.
On the other hand, if I’m in a mood for racing that will actually test my driving skills and racecraft, then going up against other players in Sport mode is the way to go, hands down.
GT’s AI objectively isn’t good; there’s no denying that. However, when I boot up GT7, I’m not always in the mood for the intense and competitive racing that Sport mode offers. Sometimes I just want to relax and drive, so the AI is quite good for that since they hardly put up a fight. Obviously though, PD should still aim to make them more challenging and a better experience to race against.
On the other hand, if I’m in a mood for racing that will actually test my driving skills and racecraft, then going up against other players in Sport mode is the way to go, hands down.
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- 3,195
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- mwoodski
- mwoodski
I'd LOVE to see some sort of Time Attack implemented into the online mode of this game. I don't particularly like racing against other humans directly in a race format but having say a 1hr session to lap and see who could set the fastest time with a payout at the end would definitely be of interest to me.
The Forza series of games did this at one point too, and a bunch of friends and I would set up half hour sessions and we'd all use identical cars to see who could go the fastest.
Plus I don't want to be sitting for a full hour and would love just doing a few laps in the timed session to try and set my time, while BS'ing with friends the rest of the time.
The Forza series of games did this at one point too, and a bunch of friends and I would set up half hour sessions and we'd all use identical cars to see who could go the fastest.
Plus I don't want to be sitting for a full hour and would love just doing a few laps in the timed session to try and set my time, while BS'ing with friends the rest of the time.
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- Where i'm at
- xmalcolmpowderx
Forza Horizon 5's AI is leaps and bounds ahead of GT7s AI. Theres not even a question there. You can actually have really fun, close races with them and they are perfectly scalable to create a challenge for me, or my 12 year old nephew.
GT7 has the worst racing AI by an absolute country mile.
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They want to give us realistic car prices but not realistic races.
- 1,653
- Sweden
I don’t agree i think the ai is much worse in forza horizon 5, but never claimed that gt7 was perfect, like i said when you increase the difficulty in horizon 5 the ai cars has so much more power, so its also broken in so many ways, gt7 is still an improvment campared to gt sport,
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- 107
- Germany
Hi,
Yes - the AI dies curious Things in the Game. Stuff i regularly doesn't understand.
In a lineup of 20 Cars - 15 are Just driving Like a Script ... They ignore Others Cars and their strenght seems to be based purely in the Level of Power they have. Then there are 5 Cars which either behave completely crazy or are ruthless drivers - sometimes there ist 1 among 20 - that behaves in parts predictable and serious - e.g. let you Overtake Safe, when you are faster. AS result - IT IS nearly Impossible to safely Overtake in Corners - ad the AI will Most likely Cross - and Slam Info you.
The starting Gruß "Problem" could be solved quite easily - you May lap every Track Layout - With Andy Car ... And this time, compared With PP, Car can bei calculated into a virtual Gruß compared to Others Players lapping the Same Car in the Track. Thats Just a Bit of Maths.
BR K.
Yes - the AI dies curious Things in the Game. Stuff i regularly doesn't understand.
In a lineup of 20 Cars - 15 are Just driving Like a Script ... They ignore Others Cars and their strenght seems to be based purely in the Level of Power they have. Then there are 5 Cars which either behave completely crazy or are ruthless drivers - sometimes there ist 1 among 20 - that behaves in parts predictable and serious - e.g. let you Overtake Safe, when you are faster. AS result - IT IS nearly Impossible to safely Overtake in Corners - ad the AI will Most likely Cross - and Slam Info you.
The starting Gruß "Problem" could be solved quite easily - you May lap every Track Layout - With Andy Car ... And this time, compared With PP, Car can bei calculated into a virtual Gruß compared to Others Players lapping the Same Car in the Track. Thats Just a Bit of Maths.
BR K.
You don't notice AI in the same car as you pulling away from you out of corners despite them crawling around it? Or cars out of your vision pulling away at a crazy rate, only for then to slow down and let you catch them later?
Why do you think so many of those chili races are hard? It's not because they're suddenly super skilled and lapping as well as you, it's because they're getting a boost to cheat.
Boost has been in the series since the PS1 games, but I think it was 5 where it was first a selectable option.
