Wrong to Race Aggressively?

[Oshawa-Joe]

Debates are much more fun.

 

[Editor GEAR]

Debates are much more fun.

I actually chuckled at that.

 

[iamsupernasty]

Shameless plug for my league here, but below is a video what we consider clean racing. Patience, setting people up, and using your cars strengths to your advantage is what circuit racing is all about. Notice how nobody needs to push the lead car out of the way, nobody needs to push other drivers off track, etc.

If you need to move the car ahead out of the way, you aren't good enough to win. Try practicing so your fast enough on your own that you can rely on talent instead of being a bully.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Shameless plug for my league here, but below is a video what we consider clean racing. Patience, setting people up, and using your cars strengths to your advantage is what circuit racing is all about. Notice how nobody needs to push the lead car out of the way, nobody needs to push other drivers off track, etc.

If you need to move the car ahead out of the way, you aren't good enough to win. Try practicing so your fast enough on your own that you can rely on talent instead of being a bully.

Only watched the first half...I couldn't take the sweet engine sounds being drowned out by the horrible music overlay...but it was very impressive. And this is exactly what I have advocated in GT5 from the beginning. That how I race, that's how I've always raced. Good clean, racing is possible with plenty of passing without making contact with other cars, other than incidentally. Passing in relatively equal cars requires racecraft, skill, patience and occasionally accepting that you just aren't going to get by someone legally.

Well done:tup:

 

[Mgrale100HP]

I can tolerate someone nudging me to get past, and give up the position fairly, but sometimes things can get out of hand.
If however I am chasing for a position and accidentally send them spinning or something, I'll slow for them to pass me again if it was my fault.

 

[Greycap]

What really irritates me is people who swear by one set of rules and live by another. I've been in a race that was supposed to be a clean one yet involved people driving so badly all over the place that avoiding contact was totally impossible. The "top moment" was when I outbraked one of them fair and square, was half a car length ahead when turning in on the inside line, and then saw him letting off his brakes and turning right into my outside front fender. He kept turning into my car for the entire hairpin while I had my inside wheels on the kerb, had about two car widths of room on the outside when exiting the corner and still decided to keep turning into me, nearly spinning out. Afterwards it was me who was accused of using him as a barrier to get around the corner.

I learned one thing from that - not to ever race with those people again. I've also never raced in the OLR events (and never will) because I see absolutely no point in the "Sir, may I pass you Sir, oh I may not because it could scare you Sir so I'll just stay here Sir" style racing in which most attempts to make a pass are basically forbidden because they might end up in a minor contact. If there's room to attempt a pass I'll use it and if it results in a tiny door to door contact, so be it. We're driving "roof cars" and anyone who has ever seen a race of BTCC, WTCC, DTM or anything like that should know that contact happens. Even F1 has literal wheel to wheel racing and those guys are supposed to be the best out there.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

delete

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

This is a very subjective topic, and no one will ever agree, and every time is has been brought up no one has. I agree taps and bumps will happen and I see it in every yes every form of circuit racing. F1, Nascar, V8 Supercars, BTCC, WTCC, Nationwide, Truck series, DTM, Le Mans/ALMS/LMS, GP2 and 3, WSR 3.5...

So these professionals do it, we emulate them cause they are the paragon of driving...yet there is a handful or more of people that see a bump or tap taboo. The whining of it all is incredible, but at the end of the day I would say this. If you are fine with hard racing, that is actually realistic since we aren't robots and will bump do it. However, make sure everyone is up for it and just avoid those try to capture the perfect incident free race. And if you can't avoid it due to open room racing, then you better learn to tone down your racing and still be competitive.

What really irritates me is people who swear by one set of rules and live by another. I've been in a race that was supposed to be a clean one yet involved people driving so badly all over the place that avoiding contact was totally impossible. The "top moment" was when I outbraked one of them fair and square, was half a car length ahead when turning in on the inside line, and then saw him letting off his brakes and turning right into my outside front fender. He kept turning into my car for the entire hairpin while I had my inside wheels on the kerb, had about two car widths of room on the outside when exiting the corner and decided to keep turning into me, nearly spinning out. Afterwards it was me who was accused of using him as a barrier to get around the corner.

I learned one thing from that - not to ever race with those people again. I've also never raced in the OLR events (and never will) because I see absolutely no point in the "Sir, may I pass you Sir, oh I may not because it could scare you Sir so I'll just stay here Sir" style racing in which most attempts to make a pass are basically forbidden because they might end up in a minor contact. If there's room to attempt a pass I'll use it and if it results in a tiny door to door contact, so be it. We're driving "roof cars" and anyone who has ever seen a race of BTCC, WTCC, DTM or anything like that should know that contact happens. Even F1 has literal wheel to wheel racing and those guys are supposed to be the best out there.

Just like I'm trying to say. Also this brings up a great point, which is why do people participate in a train follow. That's not racing, and in the nearly 20 years of racing I watched never have seen racing like that. If people wish to qualify and then use the rule "well people shouldn't pressure those in front because clearly the quali order takes precedent over actually being FAST."

If people want to qualify and have that be or be very close to the end result (that's fine)...why waste an hour or more taking up good bandwidth to do a race that the owners have decided upon due to the quali session?

 

[Bopop4]

The only drivers who think it's ok to give "bumps and taps" to get by someone, are those who don't have the skill and racecraft to make a clean pass.

You've obviously never raced in a reverse start order event before.
You can't dilly-dally at the start while a quick guy at the front gets away, most of the passes happen at the start and that's when you have to force the issue and get up there.

Baloney. I raced drove karts for years and never purposely touched another kart nor ever benefited from making contact with another kart.

If you truly RACED a kart irl, then you will make contact with other drivers, whether it be a slight tap or a full on 3-wide dive bomb into a hairpin.
A lot of the time you are only a tenth or two quicker than the leader, and contact is almost always going to be made. Everyone enjoys a good, hard race.







I can understand people not wanting to make contact online because of lag and such. I try to avoid contact racing against others online, but I won't start bitching if there is some rubbin'.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Since the OP (Editor GEAR AKA Lupo_Drifter ) came and went and never answered my original question, I will go ahead and tell you all what happened.

Now keep in mind this is from my perspective only. I’m sure he has a story too and the truth is probably somewhere between his story and mine.

I was in a Volvo S60 and Lupo_Drifter was driving a white ’83 AE86.

The Incident occurred in the first of the last two turns before going into the tunnel at Grand Valley east.

I make the right turn and he comes into the corner hot and is leaning on my right side. He doesn’t hit me hard but it is enough to push my left side tires into the grass.

He has not quite cleared me and as his left rear quarter panel is sliding past my right front fender, my car snaps loose.

I jerk the wheel to correct and my heavier Volvo sends the little AE86 flying off the track.

After the race I apologize in the chatbox but tell him it was his initial contact that caused me to get loose. He seemed a little surprised.

Now if he had successfully passed me would I have chased him down and crashed him for that? Probably not. He had been in my room for a while and that was the only incident. What I will do is keep an eye on a driver like that and if there are complaints I will probably kick the driver.

My goal is to run a room that is touchless (except for bump drafting). I always try to pass without touching the other guy. Unfortunately many drivers have this “rubbing is racing” mentality. If I kicked all the people that felt and drove that way I am afraid my rooms would only have a handful of my friends left racing.

Like I said before though racing is all about respect. Even my friends that have the “rubbing is racing” mentality know that there is a limit to what I (or any reasonable driver) will accept. It is when that limit is crossed that that driver will have me or someone else go all ape 🤬 on their back bumper.

The OP’s rub past me didn’t quite bring me to that point, but emotions can be funny things…

Road rage happens.

 

[Bopop4]

If he got you loose and the correction that you made resulted in his crash, then tough for him.

 

[Spender1330]

I think the overall message seems to be it is up to the room owner, which seems reasonable. If in doubt, ask. The absolutely no contact at all costs method of racing still seems a little sterile to me. There was a thread recently, and I know some of you participated, where the suggestion was if a clean racer took an inside line on a corner but someone managed a 10% overlap outside, then the leader should ease off to let them past rather than risk taking contact on their outside. I still find that a) hard to imagine what that would look like to a spectator and b) hard to imagine being that "clean".

 

[Johnnypenso]

I've also never raced in the OLR events (and never will) because I see absolutely no point in the "Sir, may I pass you Sir, oh I may not because it could scare you Sir so I'll just stay here Sir" style racing in which most attempts to make a pass are basically forbidden because they might end up in a minor contact.

So these professionals do it, we emulate them cause they are the paragon of driving...yet there is a handful or more of people that see a bump or tap taboo. The whining of it all is incredible, but at the end of the day I would say this. If you are fine with hard racing, that is actually realistic since we aren't robots and will bump do it. However, make sure everyone is up for it and just avoid those try to capture the perfect incident free race. And if you can't avoid it due to open room racing, then you better learn to tone down your racing and still be competitive.

Just like I'm trying to say. Also this brings up a great point, which is why do people participate in a train follow. That's not racing, and in the nearly 20 years of racing I watched never have seen racing like that. If people wish to qualify and then use the rule "well people shouldn't pressure those in front because clearly the quali order takes precedent over actually being FAST."

Obviously neither one of you guys has been in any kind of competitive organized racing series run under GTP OLR rules...lol. You are both so way off base in how you think it works vs. how it really works, it's not worth the effort to explain it. You truly have no clue how it works, and really should get into an organized series and find out for yourself.

You've obviously never raced in a reverse start order event before.
You can't dilly-dally at the start while a quick guy at the front gets away, most of the passes happen at the start and that's when you have to force the issue and get up there.

If you truly RACED a kart irl, then you will make contact with other drivers, whether it be a slight tap or a full on 3-wide dive bomb into a hairpin.
A lot of the time you are only a tenth or two quicker than the leader, and contact is almost always going to be made. Everyone enjoys a good, hard race.

I can understand people not wanting to make contact online because of lag and such. I try to avoid contact racing against others online, but I won't start bitching if there is some rubbin'.

I raced Karts at a high level for 4 years, never had a wreck and barely ever made contact. My brother entered a street race one time, mixed classes all on the track at the same time. His rival was the younger brother of my rival, who happened to own the home track we raced on. I wasn't in the race but the two brothers were. The older one punted my brother into some bundles of hay and cost him the race although he did finish second. The older brother also lost part of a tooth and had his lip split during a post-race discussion the two of us had in the pits. That's how much I hate dirty driving.

I've raced many GT5 series, won my share of titles and about half of them were double headers with reverse grid order. Many times I've gone from last to first or back of the grid to the podium in reverse grid races, as have many guys I race with, without pushing anyone out of the way or having to make contact to get by anyone. The draft works wonderfully in GT5. And with the fast guys in back and working their way to the front, passing the slower guys and passing each other sometimes, you're talking about potentially 30-60 passes or more in a 25 lap race, all within the GTP Rules. It can be done, I've seen it many, many times.

You guys really need to draw a distinction between organized racing and open lobbies. You can't compare the two.

You should also be drawing a distinction between incidental contact and everything else. I don't know of any series anywhere that isn't okay with incidental contact. Contact happens in racing that's a given, but contact that results in someone pushed out into the sand or the grass is not acceptable anywhere. Contact that pushes you 2 feet off the line is fine everywhere I've ever raced. Most of you guys can't seen to understand the difference between the two.

 

[Bopop4]

I raced Karts at a high level for 4 years, never had a wreck and barely ever made contact.

What club was that with?

in a 25 lap race, all within the GTP Rules. It can be done, I've seen it many, many times.

Oh that's why, I raced with the WRKC and our races are only 8 laps on a .372 mile long track. Going from 20th to 1st within that space of time requires contact. (Unless you're a full second faster than everyone, which is unlikely considering it has some of the best 4-stroke kart racers in Canada.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Oh that's why, I raced with the WRKC and our races are only 8 laps on a .372 mile long track. Going from 20th to 1st within that space of time requires contact. (Unless you're a full second faster than everyone, which is unlikely considering it has some of the best 4-stroke kart racers in Canada.

My first paragraph was about Karting. The rest was about GT5. I never went first to last in a kart because we qualified and I was usually on the first or second row. Goodwood was my home track the last three years I raced...but it was a while ago.. I believe it was about a km long...you can see an overhead of the track on the top right here:

http://www.goodwoodkartways.com/

CHUCK NORRIS EDIT: So you race at Bingemans? I used to live in Kitchener and my Dad still lives there..I'm down every 2 or 3 weeks...I go used to go once in a while to see the karts there...good close racing. You guys have your own track now and I've been meaning to get down and see it..hopefully it's a better layout than Bingemans...lol..

 

[Highlandor]

I see absolutely no point in the "Sir, may I pass you Sir, oh I may not because it could scare you Sir so I'll just stay here Sir" style racing in which most attempts to make a pass are basically forbidden because they might end up in a minor contact. If there's room to attempt a pass I'll use it and if it results in a tiny door to door contact, so be it. We're driving "roof cars" and anyone who has ever seen a race of BTCC, WTCC, DTM or anything like that should know that contact happens. Even F1 has literal wheel to wheel racing and those guys are supposed to be the best out there.

Sometimes, usually enduro racing, this can be quite cool

Here's a race with some of your fellow Finn's, including Varrikasourra "Pate" (A4 and Merc)..

25 laps of Grand Valley full, we don't use GTP OLR's.... and this race was EPIC.

Just simple common sense rules and guys who respect each other..

 

[Street Racer]

I hate it when you pass someone, and then on the next turn, they use you to get past you by hitting you and not using brake, and you go into the grass, sand, or whatever. Or when they do something similar like that. I definitely think that it depends on the host of the room, and what everyone thinks in the room. What some think is clean, others may think it is not. GT5 - The Real Driving Simulator. Well IRL, there should be very, very little if not no bumping at all during racing. I guess that you can be a little more aggressive than irl in gt5, but some may not agree. When I race, I like little taps. Small taps here and there, but none that make a driver completely lose his/her spot. So, wrong to race aggressively? In gt5, to a certain point, no.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Obviously neither one of you guys has been in any kind of competitive organized racing series run under GTP OLR rules...lol. You are both so way off base in how you think it works vs. how it really works, it's not worth the effort to explain it. You truly have no clue how it works, and really should get into an organized series and find out for yourself.

So rather you rattle on and make no true connections to how it is "obvious", but rather back stroke and make vague notions. Yes that is a rational way to prove your point.

How about you entice us with how we are wrong because I have participated in several sanctioned events under GTP. Yet just likely your obviously assumption, you also seemed to assume that we are talking on a limited scale to only gtp. So I hope you know we are talking in general. I have seen it several times on this forum about those things I highlighted in my previous post. That is how people view it, not all but a good number so to say that we have no idea what we are talking about, is somewhat stepping bounds.

 

[Samus]

You've obviously never raced in a reverse start order event before.
You can't dilly-dally at the start while a quick guy at the front gets away, most of the passes happen at the start and that's when you have to force the issue and get up there.

You do realise you don't have to win every race, right?

 

[Shoe67]

You do realise you don't have to win every race, right?

But it shouldn't stop you from trying...

 

[Flaco13]

Shameless plug for my league here, but below is a video what we consider clean racing. Patience, setting people up, and using your cars strengths to your advantage is what circuit racing is all about. Notice how nobody needs to push the lead car out of the way, nobody needs to push other drivers off track, etc.

If you need to move the car ahead out of the way, you aren't good enough to win. Try practicing so your fast enough on your own that you can rely on talent instead of being a bully.

kudos to you and the guys in your league 👍

This is how it should be done!

In my league, not all of us have the talent, unfortunately
but we try to do the best we can to avoid collisions, sometimes, especially on narrow tracks like Monaco (Cote d'azure), it just happens and afterwards discussions begin on who's to blame... but later we all agree that "that's racing"

Anyway kudos to this and may people who watch your video make up their minds and realize that GT5 is not about this:

Racers adisory: Dirty content. Make sure you are sittin. Eventually keep a bucket at reach.


Its just horrible.

 

[Editor GEAR]

What happened on the track between Crunch Houston and I was a total accident, I did try to look for you to see where you were at but by the time I found you the incident had occurred. I was trying to avoid you but I see that some things (such as wrecks and slips) are at times unavoidable. Didn't mean to incite a near road rage incident. Had I known I was rubbing past you I would have giving you some space.

Since the OP (Editor GEAR AKA Lupo_Drifter ) came and went and never answered my original question, I will go ahead and tell you all what happened.

Now keep in mind this is from my perspective only. I’m sure he has a story too and the truth is probably somewhere between his story and mine.

I was in a Volvo S60 and Lupo_Drifter was driving a white ’83 AE86.

The Incident occurred in the first of the last two turns before going into the tunnel at Grand Valley east.

I make the right turn and he comes into the corner hot and is leaning on my right side. He doesn’t hit me hard but it is enough to push my left side tires into the grass.

He has not quite cleared me and as his left rear quarter panel is sliding past my right front fender, my car snaps loose.

I jerk the wheel to correct and my heavier Volvo sends the little AE86 flying off the track.

After the race I apologize in the chatbox but tell him it was his initial contact that caused me to get loose. He seemed a little surprised.

Now if he had successfully passed me would I have chased him down and crashed him for that? Probably not. He had been in my room for a while and that was the only incident. What I will do is keep an eye on a driver like that and if there are complaints I will probably kick the driver.

My goal is to run a room that is touchless (except for bump drafting). I always try to pass without touching the other guy. Unfortunately many drivers have this “rubbing is racing” mentality. If I kicked all the people that felt and drove that way I am afraid my rooms would only have a handful of my friends left racing.

Like I said before though racing is all about respect. Even my friends that have the “rubbing is racing” mentality know that there is a limit to what I (or any reasonable driver) will accept. It is when that limit is crossed that that driver will have me or someone else go all ape 🤬 on their back bumper.

The OP’s rub past me didn’t quite bring me to that point, but emotions can be funny things…

Road rage happens.

 

[Greycap]

Shameless plug for my league here, but below is a video what we consider clean racing.

That was extremely good racing as long as common sense is used but it certainly wasn't "properly" OLR clean - quite a lot of small (and completely meaningless but still) quarter panel contact, drivers occasionally running with four wheels outside the track boundaries, even a slight shortcut in the last sector. And that's my main gripe with the people demanding extremely clean racing, they would call even that race of yours not clean.

 

[iamsupernasty]

That was extremely good racing as long as common sense is used but it certainly wasn't "properly" OLR clean - quite a lot of small (and completely meaningless but still) quarter panel contact, drivers occasionally running with four wheels outside the track boundaries, even a slight shortcut in the last sector. And that's my main gripe with the people demanding extremely clean racing, they would call even that race of yours not clean.

There are parts of the OLR that I find to be laughable. We wrote our.own rules that are much more akin to real life. There were a few insances in that video that may have drawn a penalty for sure, but even the best aren't perfect. Imo, if you can run at 100% for twenty minutes on top of 5 other cars without causing damage, you are clean.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That was extremely good racing as long as common sense is used but it certainly wasn't "properly" OLR clean - quite a lot of small (and completely meaningless but still) quarter panel contact, drivers occasionally running with four wheels outside the track boundaries, even a slight shortcut in the last sector. And that's my main gripe with the people demanding extremely clean racing, they would call even that race of yours not clean.

Each Race Director determines what is clean for their series, it's not a universal concept. The GTP OLR is just the most well known and commonly used. And I am an advocate of clean racing and I thought the video was great, I would race in that series any time. It's not a question of whether I think it was clean, it's whether the Race Director thinks it's clean within his own rules.

Even in series guided by the OLR, people go off track, trade paint, bend sheet metal, it happens, that's racing. All the OLR does is give you common ground as to what to do if you benefit from your own mistake or cost someone track position by doing so. It doesn't limit or prevent passing, only someone who has never raced in a high level competitive series under GTP rules would say that becasue it just isn't true.

What irritates clean racers are people who advocate bumping someone out of the way to gain a position. Or people who think it's ok to dive down inside of you at the last second, brake 50 feet too late and then use you as a guardrail to get by. If you like that type of racing, then that's great. Most people don't, which is why most organized series do not condone that kind of behaviour.

 

[Spender1330]

I think what Johnnypenso just said is THE perfect explanation to what "clean" racing is about. Surely no further expansion is required.

Well said sir!

 

[Johnnypenso]

LOL...thanks..👍

 

[Flaco13]

This is a video of a race from my league, I apologise for the bad quality in picture and sound (edit:aswell as some of the driving ).



I'm just curious, would you call it clean or not, generally? It doesn't go by GTP OLR... obviously.

Well just let me know what you think. Thanks in advance.

edit: I'll post the 2nd part too, just in case anybody wants to see it...

 

[Highlandor]

I'm just curious, would you call it clean or not, generally?

We don't race by GTP olr either, you, or no-one else has to to be clean.

2 general rules about 'clean' racing:

1) NO contact.
2) 2 wheels on track at all times (i.e no cutting corners or running wide with all 4 wheels off track).

So in answer to your question - no, that video isn't clean racing.

Contact in virtually every corner, corner cutting and running outside what's generally and usually considered the track 'boundaries'.

Anyone driving like that in website Vs website racing, competitions like "Fusion" or at many other websites - they'd be kicked out in an instant...

Avoiding contact all-together is very difficult, there will always be contact in motor racing, bth real and online racing. It's the likelihood of contact owing to the driving attitudes of those taking part that makes a difference.

In that video, the drivers are not trying to avoid contact or keep within boundaries, compare this to a group of drivers who are trying to avoid contact and giving each other room and you'll see an obvious difference.

 

[Johnnypenso]

We don't race by GTP olr either, you, or no-one else has to to be clean.

2 general rules about 'clean' racing:

1) NO contact.
2) 2 wheels on track at all times (i.e no cutting corners or running wide with all 4 wheels off track).

So in answer to your question - no, that video isn't clean racing.

Contact in virtually every corner, corner cutting and running outside what's generally and usually considered the track 'boundaries'.

Anyone driving like that in website Vs website racing, competitions like "Fusion" or at many other websites - they'd be kicked out in an instant...

Avoiding contact all-together is very difficult, there will always be contact in motor racing, bth real and online racing. It's the likelihood of contact owing to the driving attitudes of those taking part that makes a difference.

In that video, the drivers are not trying to avoid contact or keep within boundaries, compare this to a group of drivers who are trying to avoid contact and giving each other room and you'll see an obvious difference.

I concur:tup: At the same time, what is acceptable is determined by the Race Director, not us. I believe the point of this thread is to establish that really clean racing is possible if you want it to be, but it's not mandatory. You do what makes you happy in race series, not what someone tells you is the "right" thing, me included...lol..