WTF is up with tyre model.

  • Thread starter Thread starter FuSiioN_HaVoC
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SimonK
That makes no sense at all. We have a problem with high wear across all tyres, not jusr RS. RH also wear far too quickly. For example at this years 1000km of Spa race some LMP drivers went for more than two hours on one set of tyres, 50 to 60 laps. No matter how careful you drive in GT5 you'll be out of rubber after 15 laps at the most.
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Doesn't take away from the fact that the current tire model is much better than the previous one.
As I've already stated. Now, you can have a proper endurance race with a tire strategy. You simply could not do this before, as there was little to no difference between tires. Take a look at online races, and tell me how many races are beyond 50 laps.

I host endurance races regularly on GTP, that last from 1-2 hours(30-40 laps). Very few organizers here on GTP host any races that are longer than that, thus having 100% realistic tire wear is completely pointless. It's about having realism to a degree where it's relevant.

The main complaint in this thread has been the Racing Soft tires. This complaint is pretty ignorant, as it's clear that the RS tires are supposed to represent Qualifying tires. The current tire model isn't perfect. It is a step in the right direction.
 
I'm doing the Nurburgring 24h at the moment in the Peugeot 908 HDi, front: Racing Soft, rear: Racing Hard.

I have to pit every 2 laps lol I could do 3 laps, but half way through the lap or so, my tyres are completely useless :lol:
 
Jawehawk
The main complaint in this thread has been the Racing Soft tires. This complaint is pretty ignorant, as it's clear that the RS tires are supposed to represent Qualifying tires. The current tire model isn't perfect. It is a step in the right direction.
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Can you qualify in this game? Don't think you can.

Why not add an option for realistic tire wear like they do for the edge of track grip thing? Would keep everyone happy.
 
What is really frustrating about the new model is that as far as I can remember they didn't even mention it in the update log. They didn't tell us why they changed it, what the changes were meant to represent. This really frustrates me about PD, they don't tell us anything. Any other company making a change like that would explain it somewhere, like a blog.

angrybatman
try to use more driving skill instead of RS.....try....try...
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Try reading the whole thread before adding your comments?

Jawehawk
Doesn't take away from the fact that the current tire model is much better than the previous one.
As I've already stated. Now, you can have a proper endurance race with a tire strategy. You simply could not do this before, as there was little to no difference between tires. Take a look at online races, and tell me how many races are beyond 50 laps.
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Maybe but even if you're talking a race of 20 laps unless it is mandated most racing series around the world will do that modest distance on one set of tyres. Depending on the track even racing hards will struggle to do this in GT5.

The main complaint in this thread has been the Racing Soft tires. This complaint is pretty ignorant, as it's clear that the RS tires are supposed to represent Qualifying tires. The current tire model isn't perfect. It is a step in the right direction.
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Again, show me any evidence of this. I've not got the game nearby to check but I don't recall the description for racing softs mentioning qualifying tyres. As I said earlier and the above posts says GT5 does not have qualifying so why include qualifying tyres? As far as I'm concerned they're supposed to be RACING soft tyres like they use in many racing series around the world from LMPs to F1.
 
Spagetti69
Can you qualify in this game? Don't think you can.
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Yes, though only online.

SimonK
What is really frustrating about the new model is that as far as I can remember they didn't even mention it in the update log. They didn't tell us why they changed it, what the changes were meant to represent. This really frustrates me about PD, they don't tell us anything. Any other company making a change like that would explain it somewhere, like a blog.
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The less said, the better. Better for people to only complain about your actions rather than pick apart and mis-understand words. Words can be used against you.
As soon as PD begin communicating fully with the community, then immediately every word they put will be analysed, mis-quoted and used against them when things change. I've seen it so many times before with other developers and even now Kaz himself.

In an ideal world, they would never make a mistake and never build up "false promises". But the world and especially the games industry isn't ideal. Imagine if PD told you about this great change they were making but then during development for whatever reason, they can't implement it. Imagine the outrage? Don't tell me people would understand - there are always those who choose to pick apart and complain regardless.

Its not surprising developers prefer to be silent rather than speak and being criticised to the high-heavens. The benefits to the community a rather small compared to the possible problems..
 
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Ardius
Yes, though only online.
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Technically not qualifying. It's free practice but if the room owner sets it to fastest lap first then it could be considered qualifying. If the room is set to any other starting order it's just practice.


The less said, the better. Better for people to only complain about your actions rather than pick apart and mis-understand words. Words can be used against you.
As soon as PD begin communicating fully with the community, then immediately every word they put will be analysed, mis-quoted and used against them when things change. I've seen it so many times before with other developers and even now Kaz himself.
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Don't agree, sorry. People are always going to take things said out of context or have problems with it but I'd rather they said something than nothing. I mean to give another example people were already annoyed that they removed most of the seasonal events, if they posted a message to say why people might not still agree with the reasoning and be angry but at least we have a reason, rather than confusion and guessing.
 
Spagetti69
Can you qualify in this game? Don't think you can.

Why not add an option for realistic tire wear like they do for the edge of track grip thing? Would keep everyone happy.
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Most if not all of the serious events on GTP have qualifying. While it's not actually implemented into the game, we do have the ability to use freerun as qualifying.

I can't tell you what reasons lie behind PD's decisions. However, my guess is that they haven't seen any reasons for having 100% realistic tire wear. The vast majority of online races aren't long enough to justify the amount of work they'd have to put into a more realistic tire model. PD can't keep everyone happy in every single aspect of the game. Just imagine the ridicules amount of work they'd have to do to please everyone on this site.

I've spent a good deal of time on GTPlanet, and honestly it has to be the most spoiled community ever. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I've never seen so much "I want this in the game!!!", before now. Even when people get free stuff on here, someone complaines about it. The game isn't perfect by a long shot, but it does have a ton of content. And who knows. With all the updates constantly comming. We might see more changes in the tire model, as well as other things, in the future.

But until then, just please try to make the best out of what we have. Try using different tires for once. There's no reason what so ever to be using racing tires on anything but LMP's and GT300/500 cars. And the tire model for the comfort and sport tires is great.
 
Jawehawk
But until then, just please try to make the best out of what we have. Try using different tires for once. There's no reason what so ever to be using racing tires on anything but LMP's and GT300/500 cars. And the tire model for the comfort and sport tires is great.
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Or any other racing car, which is the only place I use them and that is what I like to do most of my racing in.

They've already adjusted the tyres to wear in relation to their compound rather than all the same and changed the speed each wears, it couldn't be that hard to 'turn it back up' in a manner of speaking. Many serious sims have a slider to adjust tire wear speed, GT5 could do the same.
 
SimonK
Don't agree, sorry. People are always going to take things said out of context or have problems with it but I'd rather they said something than nothing. I mean to give another example people were already annoyed that they removed most of the seasonal events, if they posted a message to say why people might not still agree with the reasoning and be angry but at least we have a reason, rather than confusion and guessing.
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As I said, better that people are confused and have to guess for themselves rather than giving them ammunition.
Imagine if there was a forum user on GTP who was known to be a PD developer. Anything they said would be considered 100% accurate and considered a promise. It can only lead to people using it against PD rather than a positive for the community.

While I agree that it would be nice for them to explain why they have made changes, I can understand why they choose to keep their community relations to an absolute minimum. As long as they appear to listen to the community (which they do), I don't think it really matters that they say anything back.
 
Ardius
As I said, better that people are confused and have to guess for themselves rather than giving them ammunition.
Imagine if there was a forum user on GTP who was known to be a PD developer. Anything they said would be considered 100% accurate and considered a promise. It can only lead to people using it against PD rather than a positive for the community.

While I agree that it would be nice for them to explain why they have made changes, I can understand why they choose to keep their community relations to an absolute minimum. As long as they appear to listen to the community (which they do), I don't think it really matters that they say anything back.
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I'm not talking about a user on the forum casually commenting though, I'm talking about an official blog. PD have one, they just don't use it - http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/blog/

I'm not expecting to have a daily diary telling us what they might do, what ideas they have and what they're working on. Just a blog which tells us why they are taking certain directions once they've taken them or as they're doing them.
 
The new tire wear was a step in right direction,
But sadly RS tires are still fastest also in longer races,
Even that You have to pit more often.
Waiting for an update that makes RH tires last at least 20% longer...
RS could be renamed to Q tires, and RM to RS.
 
sdf
PD totally cocked up the tyre wear thing,
1st of all the tyre wear isnt reflecting to the grip that the RS tyres are offering. A tyre that wears out so quickly should have extreme grip.
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RS tires provide unreal grip. You won't see anything that's even close to that in real life, including supersoft tires used in F1 (which are actually developed to not last much), le mans and all other major racing competition.
 
RamoSapiens
The new tire wear was a step in right direction,
But sadly RS tires are still fastest also in longer races,
Even that You have to pit more often.
Waiting for an update that makes RH tires last at least 20% longer...
RS could be renamed to Q tires, and RM to RS.
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This!

Personally I don't have a problem with how long RS tyres last as I almost never use them, but I am disappointed in PD how they managed to not fix a problem which should be really easy to fix and piss off half the community at the same time. There's still no tyre strategy and endurance races with free tyre choice are a joke considering the amount of pitting you have to do.

All I can hope is now more people try racing with RM or RH instead and eventually become better drivers. 👍
 
SimonK
Ten laps is a sprint race mate, shouldn't be any pitting at that distance. But I think that is the main problem, PD are catering to the arcade 3 lap racers rather than those who race more realistic lengths. Then what about the endurance races? You have to pit far too often now in those.
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Maybe a slider would be the best option

Real

x2
x4
x8
etc.
 
I would like to know for the people who are using RS tires are you driving with ABS on? I saw in another thread people upset with the tire wear , however they are running ABS on cars that shouldn't have it (race cars) I seen the effect with ABS and how it chews the tires up during your race. I know with ABS off I can get better wear from my tires rather then it on.
 
The updated tire wear is a good idea but executed so poorly the result is worse than what we had before. Softs are still the best in every possible situation, and mediums are still always better than hards. The only difference is now you have to pit more often.

For there to be any real strategy with the current grip levels, the ratio should be about 1:3:10 between the 3. So for example if the soft compound is set to last 4 laps at la sarthe, mediums should last 12 (a little less than one fuel tank) and hards should last 40 (2-3 tanks).

Of course, if you want full realism there also needs to be an option in endurance races to separate tire change and refueling, so that a fuel-only stop is much faster than a tire+fuel stop...
 
Jawehawk
Doesn't take away from the fact that the current tire model is much better than the previous one.
As I've already stated. Now, you can have a proper endurance race with a tire strategy. You simply could not do this before, as there was little to no difference between tires. Take a look at online races, and tell me how many races are beyond 50 laps.

I host endurance races regularly on GTP, that last from 1-2 hours(30-40 laps). Very few organizers here on GTP host any races that are longer than that, thus having 100% realistic tire wear is completely pointless. It's about having realism to a degree where it's relevant.

The main complaint in this thread has been the Racing Soft tires. This complaint is pretty ignorant, as it's clear that the RS tires are supposed to represent Qualifying tires. The current tire model isn't perfect. It is a step in the right direction.
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No, the new model doesn't change anything as far as endurance racing goes, and as far as realism goes, it's a huge step in the wrong direction.

I've been racing in an online league since the game got out. We run 1.5h races every week. We've ran LMPs, Super GTs, Amuse 380RS, Clio RS, SLS AMGs, Lambos, etc. Pretty much all kind of cars, on all kind of tracks.

Before the update, racing softs were by far the fastest tires. Now the model has been updated. We ran a 12 lap race on the Nurb 24h with LMPs, I had a 787B. I decided to use soft tires and pit every lap. I ended the first lap in first place and went to the pits. I had a 15 second lead on a group of 3 front soft/back medium tire cars, who passed me while I was pitting. I came out of the pits behind them, and smoked them in under 3 minutes. I ended lap 2 with a 25 second lead on them.

Soft tires are still the way to go. You'll pit more often, but you'll also be much much faster. And since you can add 15-20 liters of fuel without losing time, pitting more often isn't that big of a disavantage.

The new model is clearly wrong. It's been said before, but I've been to Le Mans before, in qualifying runs, guys get many laps out of their tires even though they're going flat out, and during the race their tires last for ages. PD should have used the endurance of the old soft tires and made the medium/hard tires last 2/5 times longer, instead of doing the opposite.
 
Haaveilla
Before the update, racing softs were by far the fastest tires. Now the model has been updated. We ran a 12 lap race on the Nurb 24h with LMPs, I had a 787B. I decided to use soft tires and pit every lap. I ended the first lap in first place and went to the pits. I had a 15 second lead on a group of 3 front soft/back medium tire cars, who passed me while I was pitting. I came out of the pits behind them, and smoked them in under 3 minutes. I ended lap 2 with a 25 second lead on them.

Soft tires are still the way to go. You'll pit more often, but you'll also be much much faster. And since you can add 15-20 liters of fuel without losing time, pitting more often isn't that big of a disavantage.
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Too bad your argument loses all credibility if you take Racing Softs out of the equation. I pretty much never allow RS tires, as they give way too much grip. Simpy limit it to RH and RM. It makes no sense saying that the tire model is worse than before, as there was no difference in wear between different tires in the same tier. Having some difference, is obviously better.

I know RS tires make the game so much easier, but for the love of god, try something else for once... This complaining is getting tiresome.
 
SimonK
Yes I know they currently wear as fast as that but they don't claim to in the description, do they? What would be the point, the game doesn't even feature quali so why would they give us quali tyres?That is what I was saying, nowhere in GT5 does it say they are quali tyres but they behave like them. A racing soft tyre should last a lot longer than they do in GT5. Even in series that had quali tyres they still had a soft racing compound as well.
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GT4 didn't have quali but that had quali tyres.
 
Jawehawk
Too bad your argument loses all credibility if you take Racing Softs out of the equation. I pretty much never allow RS tires, as they give way too much grip. Simpy limit it to RH and RM. It makes no sense saying that the tire model is worse than before, as there was no difference in wear between different tires in the same tier. Having some difference, is obviously better.

I know RS tires make the game so much easier, but for the love of god, try something else for once... This complaining is getting tiresome.
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How does that work? Are you saying the tyre model only works if you ignore one type of tyre? How is that 'working' exactly? Many people may not like the RS because of their grip levels but if they are in the game people are going to use them and they should be balanced with the other tyres. They're clearly not.

Plus, even if you pretend the RS don't exist it doesn't change the fact RM and RH still wear far too quickly.

FuSiioN_HaVoC
GT4 didn't have quali but that had quali tyres.
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Even if that is correct (I've not played it in years so don't remember) I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion. GT5 soft tyres don't say they're quali tyres so they're not quali tyres.
 
RamoSapiens
The new tire wear was a step in right direction,
But sadly RS tires are still fastest also in longer races,
Even that You have to pit more often.
Waiting for an update that makes RH tires last at least 20% longer...
RS could be renamed to Q tires, and RM to RS.
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I find that for a five or six lap race choose between RS and RM can make a big difference.

Most time the RS are running out in the last lap and mistakes are made alowing the RM drive to catch up.

This I really enjoy. I kinda miss have the Tires count in the PP as well. I really enjoyed in Prolog choose between a maxed out Lotus with RS or a Vette detuned with RH.
 
For ex. In real world GT500 Suzuka lap record is under 1'50, and its done
With q tires. A Alien could do it in GT5 with RS tires.
But they use in races tires that gives 1'56 laptimes = GT5 RH tires.

I think RS tires in this game is for Arcade sprint races, and I wish they keep
RS tires as they are, but increase lifetime of RH tires.

Lap record - http://supergt.net/supergt/circuit/suzuka/circen_suzuka.htm

Race archives - http://supergt.net/en/

For ex average laptime 2008 in the 300 km race ( dry track) was 2 minutes, so they use tires that Match RH tires in GT5.

So maybe time to move over to right tires with the cars, and leave those rs tires
For casual online sprintraces for beginners.
 
FuSiioN_HaVoC
Well they need to sort it I carn't see tyres wearing out this fast in real life people would end up spending millions of pounds/dollars
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They do. IRL no one racing in an endurance event would fit soft tyres to their car.
 
TheCracker
They do. IRL no one racing in an endurance event would fit soft tyres to their car.
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Wrong.

http://europeanmotornews.com/2011/05/09/one-two-for-peugeot-at-the-1000-km-of-spa/

Sébastien Bourdais, Peugeot 908 No.9: “We were expecting to be able to move up the field once the race got underway, but it was a pleasant surprise to see we were keeping pace with our main rivals. I started on soft tyres, so I had to be easy on them to complete two stints on the same set of tyres.”
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TheCracker
When he says soft tyre, he's referring to the softest that Michelin was suppling for the event. Compared to a soft compound F1 tyre it would be very hard indeed.
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Well yes but it's still a soft tyre compared to the hard tyre which will obviously be even harder and even more durable. F1 cars use soft tyres and even though they're specifically designed to wear out quickly they can do 10+ laps of any F1 circuit, a lot more at less abrasive tracks.

In short, the selection of racing tyres and their endurance in GT5 is very poor.
 
SimonK
In short, the selection of racing tyres and their endurance in GT5 is very poor.
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I feel PD's handling of tyres is pretty poor anyway. Far too simplistic.

They have plenty of historic cars, but nothing that accurately replicates historic tyres. Their GT40's, 330 P3/4, Jag XJ13, Chaparrals etc, all run slick racing tyres when they actually used treaded tyres. This is one of the reasons why they can keep up with the modern stuff in GT5, where in reality using the correct tyres, they wouldn't see the modern (and Group C era) cars for dust.
 

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