XBox 360 - Is it worth it?

[YSSMAN]

I'm curious how PS3 games with over 7GB of data will get ported to the XB360? Resistance, while not likely ever to be an XB360 title, was 22GB (although some reports say it is 16GB), and it is being speculated that the next Metal Gear Solid game will be close to 50GB. If any game that was 50GB on a PS3 that gets ported over to the XB360 without anything being cut or downrezed would require it to be spread over 7 DVD-ROMs.

The big difference between the 360 and the PS3 with games is the issue of compression and drive-speed. EGM had a big deal about this in their current issue, and I think they summed it up pretty clearly:

Even game developers who work with both standards and Blu-Ray discs aren't sold on Sony's format, despite it being the only megastorage disc available on the concoles. (PS3 Blu-Ray disks can hold five times the content of the standard dual-layered DVDs used by the XBOX 360.) "Most games still use a ton of compression - not just to fit on a disc but to load faster," says Todd Howard, executive producer of XBOX 360 role-playing epic Elder Scrolls IV: Obilvion, which is also coming to the PlayStation 3. "So drive speed matters more to me, and Blu-Ray is slower." (The PS3 Oblivion team compensated for the slower drive by duplicating data across the Blu-Ray disc, making it faster to find and load.) "Now with games that have a lot of prerendered [high-definition] cut-scenes, Blu-Ray is key," Howard adds. "Those types of things eat a lot of disk space. But we tend to stay away from [that type of content] anyway, so its not much of an issue for us."

...So it is a bit of a catch-22 I suppose. What will be interesting to see immediate differences in games will be with titles like Virtua Fighter 5 in the Spring, and then there is always the inevitable comparisons between GTHD and Forza 2 in the near-future as well. It will be interesting to see how everything sorts out between the two platforms when it comes to shared titles, particularly with fewer titles staying exclusive to just the PS3. We've got a while to figure it out...

 

[Pako]

I should have been more specific, I meant for consoles. I know what you mean about PC games though, I remember for the third Myst game, (Riven?), it had five or six CD-ROMs, and we had to swap out the discs depending on what "island/world" we were on. (boy that brings back memories.... I used to love those Myst games, but its been years!)

Precisely.

I suspect this is one of the reasons why multi-disc console games are so rare.



I think they will have to,but even a large 100GB HDD would only have space for 2 50GB games, or 4 25GB games. This would not only mean having to use up all your HDD space, but if you had more games than that, you'd have to be constantly erasing and reloading your games.

Another point to consider is that the average data rate of the DVD in the XB360, is 8MB/s, that means it would take an hour to download less than 30GB... and with 7GB per disc, that also means downloading four full DVDs. 50GB games would take close to two hours and require dowloading seven DVDs.

In reality, if Microsoft wants to give developers the same amount of capacity for games as the PS3 without making them release multi-disc titles and force their customers to not only buy large HDDs, but depending on the size and number of games, also have to constantly erase and reload games...they will have to come out with the version of the XB360 that they should have in the first place, one with either an HD DVD or Blu-ray drive (in the event HD DVD continues to lose support, or if they really want the same capacity as PS3 games) that supports ROM discs.

The leaked information on Microsoft's prototype 360 version with HDMI and large HDD may mean they are in fact going to also address the capacity issue in regards to games.

I agree. M$ has kind of backed themselves into an awkward corner with already obsolete hardware it seams. Perhaps a HD-DVD2 format is on the way to address larger capacities then what HD-DVD protocol currently supports, who knows. What is HD-DVD's capacity? 24gb or something like that? Well that's better than 9GB on DL DVD if they can get their HD-DVD drive to be used for more than just movies.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

The big difference between the 360 and the PS3 with games is the issue of compression and drive-speed. EGM had a big deal about this in their current issue, and I think they summed it up pretty clearly:

Except it was summed up inaccurately in that article and quotes from Todd Howard, who of course as the executive producer of XBOX 360 version of Obilvion may explain his take on the issue. The PS3 actually has support for more efficient compression schemes than the XB360, and Blu-ray has a faster drive speed than both HD DVD and standard DVD.

The only reason that the DVD drive in the XB360 'can' achieve a higher max data rate is that it is a 12x DVD drive, while the PS3 is a 2x BD drive. However, the problem with standard DVD is that that max rate ONLY applies to data written on the outer edges of the disc. The max rate quickly drops the farther in you go on the disc, and drops below the data rate of Blu-ray.

Blu-ray on the other hand has a steady data rate, which adds to its advantage such that there is not a decline in the data rate while the game is playing.

The unfortunate reality is that the current XB360 is designed with only standard DVD in mind, and I think Microsoft severely underestimated the growth rate of HD, the demand by developers and consumers for more capacity, and the growing support for Blu-ray.

 

[KieranMurphy]

On the other hand, the fact that a game the size of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion fit onto a single DVD makes me think that there's hope yet for the next GTA game. I only played the PC version but it seems to be pretty much as good looking on the Xbox360 as my PC from what I've seen.

I was well impressed by both the size of the Oblivion game world and the quality of its graphics.


KM.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I can understand why Microsoft chose not to release an XB360 with a blue laser drive, as HD DVD was not ready for prime time at that time, and they obviously wanted to have a jump start on the PS3. I just think that decision to not wait may seriously cost them in future sales, or risk alienating over 10 million current customers when they find out that the only way to get a digital output and/or blue laser drive that supports games is to buy another version of the XB360. For those that do not, they likely wont be able to get full featured games.

Speaking of digital outputs, the lack of any on the current XB360 made no sense. What was Microsoft thinking? Digital displays and thus digital outputs have been growing in popularity for over six years now. Digital (fixed pixel) displays and DVI/HDMI have dominated the large screen market now for over three years. Go into any electronic store and you will have a very hard time finding any display over 30" that doesn't have at least one digital input.

The decision to not offer a digital output for the XB360 was truly bizarre, not only because to include one would not have added much at all to the production costs, but the XB360 is a digital device! More importantly though, there will be no way of adding one later to existing XB360's, forcing current owners to have to convert the original digital data to analog, then back to digital before it can be displayed, which not only adds D/A artifacts, but limits the resolution, color depths, and contrast. This will also prevent the ability to watch HD material in HD that is protected with HDCP. 👎

Now it seems Microsoft has realized their mistake and is considering releasing a new XB360 edition with HDMI... but this wont help the close to 10 million current owners of XB360's. 👎👎

 

[Jeremy Ricci]

On the other hand, the fact that a game the size of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion fit onto a single DVD makes me think that there's hope yet for the next GTA game. I only played the PC version but it seems to be pretty much as good looking on the Xbox360 as my PC from what I've seen.

I was well impressed by both the size of the Oblivion game world and the quality of its graphics.


KM.

The biggest reason Oblivion is "so large" is because it's a dungeon crawler and there are a LOT of repeated textures throughout the game, and the unique areas are farther and fewer between compared to dungeons that look alike and repeated landscape textures. Considering so much of the game is streamed right from the disc, a larger storage space would have helped. But, seeing as how you have to develop for the lowest common denom, you will see a lot of games like this, because the PC and 360 are holding back game development in terms of advancement.

 

[G.T]

The biggest reason Oblivion is "so large" is because it's a dungeon crawler and there are a LOT of repeated textures throughout the game, and the unique areas are farther and fewer between compared to dungeons that look alike and repeated landscape textures. Considering so much of the game is streamed right from the disc, a larger storage space would have helped. But, seeing as how you have to develop for the lowest common denom, you will see a lot of games like this, because the PC and 360 are holding back game development in terms of advancement.

Yeah.

Test Drive Unlimited is very much like that as well. It has 1000s of miles of road, but you can certainly tell the textures have been repeated over and over when you look carefully. Although, a pretty good job done to both games to make locations in them look as different as possible, nevertheless.

 

[Jeremy Ricci]

Yeah.

Test Drive Unlimited is very much like that as well. It has 1000s of miles of road, but you can certainly tell the textures have been repeated over and over when you look carefully. Although, a pretty good job done to both games to make locations in them look as different as possible, nevertheless.

Oh yea, I'm not going to deny that, there is a TON of mixing and matching. But, by comparison, FFXII has a TON of different textures and objects, much more than Oblivion does. The reason is becuase the lower res textures of FFXII take up significantly more space, but they offer a signifcantly more "unique" experience when you're exploring. You're seeing new items, foliage, people (occasionally, many look the same, lol) and tons upon tons of other random things on stages. Since it's a PS2 game, the textures are lower res and smaller in size, and there is a butt ton of FMV, but it's about the same size as Oblivion (which has considerably less FMV sequences).

Given that fact, I can say it's safe to say that DVD9 really isn't "suffecient" for the next 5 years.

 

[DuckRacer]

What better compression are you talking about? I had the impression they were using MPEG4, and of course this only impacts audio and video compression, not data. However, even VC-1 (SMPTE 421M), which both the XB360 and PS3 support, can not compress audio and video more than MPEG4 can.

I dunno, anything better than what they're using. I doubt they're using MPEG4. Resistance looks really nice and all, but not 16GB nice. Maybe there's multiplayer maps the size of Montana with tons of detail that I haven't played yet (been focusing on the single player). But I dunno. It really just doesn't seem that big.

I was under the impression that XB360's DVD-ROM only could store 7GB of data.

Nope. It can hold 8.54 GB of data, or 7.92 GiB. A single layer BD holds 25 GB or 23.3 GiB.

In fact, how many XB360 games are 2-disc, let alone multi-disc releases?

One. Blue Dragon takes up 3 discs, and that's only because it has enough FMVs to choke the Korean army.

Well a few months ago, prior to Resistance you also said you doubted any PS3 games would exceed the capacity of what a DVD could hold, and that it would be a long time, if ever that they would use all the space that Blu-ray provides.

Umm, what? I never said that. Show me a post of mine that says that.

If anything, I may have said "most games won't need the amount of space that Blu-ray provides."

That would be nice, but considering the developmental learning curve, time, and cost, I'm afraid not all exclusive titles will take full advantage of everything the PS3 has to offer.

They'd still take advantage of it more than if it were multiplatform.

BTW: What is the size difference between the PS3 and XB360 versions of Fight Night: Round3?

Not sure. I suspect it's slightly larger.

But I think that Digital-Nitrate raises an important point with regard to GTA4. San Andreas supposedly used up most of the space on a double layered DVD (I think so anyway). And that was a game with relatively worse graphics than other similar PS2 titles, regardless of the enormous size and scope of the game. How are Rockstar going to deal with trying to push a next gen title of a similar size but with higher resolution textures, higher-polygon count buildings, cars, characters, etc. onto the same type of disc that San Andreas filled most of.

Not sure. How large was the open world in San Andreas in comparison to other GTA games?

But that'd never work for a free-roaming GTA-style game where most of the data consists of the game world itself and a game world that you're supposed to be able to explore and drive around on a whim, not a linear game where one level follows the next and thus disc swaps would be rare and minimal. Loading times on GTAIII and Vice City were already a slight annoyance that were thankfully done away with on San Andreas, but imagine having to swap discs when just driving around exploring the game world, especially when you're driving around at breakneck speed being chased by the cops.

But how many games are like that? Most games are linear. And quite honestly, after seeing what Bioware is doing with Mass Effect, I'm pretty sure GTA4 will fit on a normal DVD, even if it is gimped.

I agree. M$ has kind of backed themselves into an awkward corner with already obsolete hardware it seams. Perhaps a HD-DVD2 format is on the way to address larger capacities then what HD-DVD protocol currently supports, who knows. What is HD-DVD's capacity? 24gb or something like that? Well that's better than 9GB on DL DVD if they can get their HD-DVD drive to be used for more than just movies.

A single layer HD-DVD can hold 15GB, dual layer 30GB, triple layer 45GB.

And to be quite honest, I'm glad MS chose DVD. I'm not going to pay an extra $200 for something that'd fail eventually.

and Blu-ray has a faster drive speed than both HD DVD and standard DVD.

That's debatable. Blu-ray can read 8 MB per second consistently. DVD can read up to 15MB per second on the outer edges of the disc to 4MB in the inner edges of the disc.

The only reason that the DVD drive in the XB360 'can' achieve a higher max data rate is that it is a 12x DVD drive, while the PS3 is a 2x BD drive. However, the problem with standard DVD is that that max rate ONLY applies to data written on the outer edges of the disc. The max rate quickly drops the farther in you go on the disc, and drops below the data rate of Blu-ray.

You have to remember that developers tend to stick the largest files on the edges of the disc. In Oblivion's case, the load times were fine since the big stuff was loaded the quickest. Now with BDs, the smaller stuff gets loaded faster. But the larger things load slower, and so they're using Blu-ray's space to duplicate stuff so it loads faster.

The reason is becuase the lower res textures of FFXII take up significantly more space,

Huh? Don't you mean "higher res textures take up more space"?

And how did we get into this subject anyway?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Nope. It can hold 8.54 GB of data, or 7.92 GiB. A single layer BD holds 25 GB or 23.3 GiB.

Nope. This was even brought up at CEDEC, and only 7GB out of the 8.5GB on a dual layer DVD-ROM can be used for game data (the rest is used for system data). 8.5GB can be used for movies. Of course, regardless of this, to get a 25-50GB game for the XB360 would require several discs.

One. Blue Dragon takes up 3 discs, and that's only because it has enough FMVs to choke the Korean army.

So it is very rare to see multi-disc console games.

Umm, what? I never said that. Show me a post of mine that says that.

I'll try and dig those quotes up, but as they were so long ago it may take some time. I also could have mistaken your less than optimistic thoughts on the advantage of having games on HD DVD and Blu-ray with those of Mr. Deap. If so I certain apologize for that.

If anything, I may have said "most games won't need the amount of space that Blu-ray provides."

I would agree as far as most being more than half. That still means there will be dozens of games that will need the additional space... and probably most of the best selling marquee titles. In time I can also see how likely it will be that most will need that space, just as it was when developers switched from CD-ROM to DVD-ROM.

They'd still take advantage of it more than if it were multiplatform.

That's certainly true, and I hope what you are saying happens.

A single layer HD-DVD can hold 15GB, dual layer 30GB, triple layer 45GB.

Not only is the triple layer purely experimental, but it didn;t even get included in the finalized HD DVD spec, which means if, and that's a huge if from an engineering standpoint, they can produce stable 3-layer HD DVDs they would only work with new players that support it. Even the HD DVD Promotional Group made emphasized that they are "looking into" the possibility of a 3-layer disc, but seeing as no disc manufacturer ever was able to do that with standard DVD, which uses the exact same architecture as HD DVD, it is highly unlikely that will ever happen.

And to be quite honest, I'm glad MS chose DVD. I'm not going to pay an extra $200 for something that'd fail eventually.

True, but how will you feel if Microsoft releases a new XB360 that has HDMI, 120HDD, and that supports HD DVD games, and then developers release HD DVD games, which of course wont work on the original 10 million XB360's? I know, all of this is probably unlikely, but if by this time next year, gamers are complaining how much better the PS3 games are because of HDMI and Blu-ray capacity don't you think Microsoft will have to offer a new Xbox to compete at or near the same level?

That's debatable. Blu-ray can read 8 MB per second consistently. DVD can read up to 15MB per second on the outer edges of the disc to 4MB in the inner edges of the disc.

That's the point I was making.

You have to remember that developers tend to stick the largest files on the edges of the disc. In Oblivion's case, the load times were fine since the big stuff was loaded the quickest. Now with BDs, the smaller stuff gets loaded faster. But the larger things load slower, and so they're using Blu-ray's space to duplicate stuff so it loads faster.

Load times are not simply based on data rate, and I was talking about the time it would take to transfer multiple DVD-ROMs to a HDD as a possible way for XB360 to support higher capacity games... thus the transfer rate isn't going to be close to the max along the outer ring.

BTW: Do you have a layout of the files and where they are on the Oblivion DVD disc, or was that just a guess?

 

[YSSMAN]

True, but how will you feel if Microsoft releases a new XB360 that has HDMI, 120HDD, and that supports HD DVD games, and then developers release HD DVD games, which of course wont work on the original 10 million XB360's? I know, all of this is probably unlikely, but if by this time next year, gamers are complaining how much better the PS3 games are because of HDMI and Blu-ray capacity don't you think Microsoft will have to offer a new Xbox to compete at or near the same level?

Microsoft has certainly placed itself in an interesting position with the 360 as it stands now. There isn't any questioning that it truly is the "middle of the road" console in most respects, and generally I think that is part of what has made it attractive, beyond of course the shortages of Wiis and PS3s over the past few months. Should Microsoft update the 360, my guess is that they are anticipating having issues with us early-adopters who bought the current system over the past year.

The Microsoft PR brigade probably won't say anything about the possibility of a new system any time soon, and if indeed they are working on something new, I'm sure they are trying to find a way to keep the fan-base happy. Maybe some kind of trade-in offer for those of us with a gen-one system? Maybe, maybe not... But signs are pointing to NO thus far, so I'm not going to put any money on anything right now.

Microsoft, at least in my view, has what I need so I'm not overly upset over things. Sure, I'd love to brag about 1080p resolution (has video covered), HDMI ports, and whatnot... But, it is more about the games than anything, not just the looks, etc. Lines in the sand have been drawn and it will be interesting to see how Microsoft approaches them with its perceived handicap, and the same goes with Nintendo and Sony respectively.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Excellent post and analysis YSSMAN +REP

 

[DuckRacer]

Nope. This was even brought up at CEDEC, and only 7GB out of the 8.5GB on a dual layer DVD-ROM can be used for game data (the rest is used for system data). 8.5GB can be used for movies. Of course, regardless of this, to get a 25-50GB game for the XB360 would require several discs.

Ah. Thanks for clarifying.

Not only is the triple layer purely experimental, but it didn;t even get included in the finalized HD DVD spec, which means if, and that's a huge if from an engineering standpoint, they can produce stable 3-layer HD DVDs they would only work with new players that support it. Even the HD DVD Promotional Group made emphasized that they are "looking into" the possibility of a 3-layer disc, but seeing as no disc manufacturer ever was able to do that with standard DVD, which uses the exact same architecture as HD DVD, it is highly unlikely that will ever happen.

Oh. I thought it was already being used for some movies.

True, but how will you feel if Microsoft releases a new XB360 that has HDMI, 120HDD, and that supports HD DVD games, and then developers release HD DVD games, which of course wont work on the original 10 million XB360's? I know, all of this is probably unlikely, but if by this time next year, gamers are complaining how much better the PS3 games are because of HDMI and Blu-ray capacity don't you think Microsoft will have to offer a new Xbox to compete at or near the same level?

At this point, I wouldn't be in an uproar if they throw in a massive HDD and HDMI, but if it's going to support HD-DVD games, and those games will only work on the newer 360s, Microsoft can suck cheese.

BTW: Do you have a layout of the files and where they are on the Oblivion DVD disc, or was that just a guess?

I thought I read something about it in this month's EGM, and I also used a little bit of logic too. Why would they stick the small files on the edges?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I thought I read something about it in this month's EGM, and I also used a little bit of logic too. Why would they stick the small files on the edges?

Good point, and I'd agree with the logic behind it, I was just curious if anyone had mapped out all the files on that disc.

 

[KieranMurphy]

Not sure. How large was the open world in San Andreas in comparison to other GTA games?

It's several times the size of Vice City or GTAIII.

But how many games are like that? Most games are linear. And quite honestly, after seeing what Bioware is doing with Mass Effect, I'm pretty sure GTA4 will fit on a normal DVD, even if it is gimped.

But I'm not interested in what "most games" are like. As a GTA fan, I'm interested in the GTA games that will be coming out on the Xbox 360. It'd sadden me slightly if Rockstar had to cut back on the scope of the games because of a shortage of disc capacity on the 360.

And to be quite honest, I'm glad MS chose DVD. I'm not going to pay an extra $200 for something that'd fail eventually.

But would it actually have cost $200 extra for the Xbox360 if there was a HD-DVD drive built in? They're subsidising the cost of the 360 so the HD-DVD drive would be cost price or cheaper and you'd have to subtract the cost of the current DVD drive (probably dirt cheap though - I think I heard a figure of $20 that Microsoft are paying for each disc drive). And you wouldn't have to pay for other things like cables, the case, etc.

Are they selling the HD-DVD add-on drive at a profit?


KM.

 

[KieranMurphy]

Maybe loading games on the hard drive is how the 360 will deal with larger games. Offer larger hard-drives for the 360 and problem is solved.

That'd work with a much larger hard drive. But the 20Gb HD in the 360 has a smaller capacity than a single layer Blu-Ray disc.

I'm doubtful it's going to be an issue with huge 360 games, but I don't fancy the though of installing and uninstalling games as I wish to play them. I suspect that games companies are simply going to have to work around the disc capacity problem if it's a genuine problem.

I certainly don't expect to fork out for a larger hard drive to make future games work properly.


KM.

 

[Jeremy Ricci]

Resistance is 16GB, Ted Price himself said so on his blog. It was lowered because they figured out they could convert the NTSC stuff into PAL on-the-fly, so they could remove all the PAL stuff on the disc. And if Resistance used better compression than what they're using now and removed any other crap from the disc (like the PAL stuff), it would fit on a DVD9 real easily. And it's not going to the X360 for the simple fact that it's published by Sony.

As for multi-platform titles... I doubt they'd be going over the 8.5 GB mark. And even in the rare case they do, there's a little thing called disc 2. I seriously doubt Call of Duty 5 will be 15GB, or that Fatal Inertia will be 12GB, or that Assassin's Creed will be 24GB, or whatever.

Exclusive PS3 games are going to use the full potential of the PS3. They're going to use all the space they can get, just because they can. With multiplatform titles, they'll probably be made so that it fits on one DVD9. I seriously, seriously doubt GTA4 will be cut down to fit on the 360. If anything, the PS3 version may not reach it's full potential.

But we'll see.

Wrong.

The only multi region information on Resistance is the audio and menu's / text. Everything else is the same. So removing PAL / JPN will NOT get rid of 7 GB of data just for the LIMITED amount of audio (and by audio I mean dialogue) and menu's. Don't kid yourself by trying to simplify it.

I'd also like to point out that MS opted for DVD, cool, but the increased disc read speed (spin) increases both heat output and noise.

Sony opted for a drive that nearly matches the DVD drive in the 360, and offers many benefits over DVD. The lowered sound output and heat output are a huge benefit, IMO.