Xbox's Phil Spencer Suggests Cross-Platform Moderation to Make Games Safer

[Terronium-12]

This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

Xbox’s Phil Spencer Suggests Cross-Platform Moderation to Make Games Safer​

As we’ve already heard this week, Phil Spencer — the man in charge of all things Xbox — recently took part in an extensive interview with the New York Times. Along with revealing that the Xbox Series consoles are the best selling in the brand’s 20-year history Spencer discussed a number of other ideas and one in particular caught our eye: cross-platform moderation.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

Coming from many years of competitive League of Legends, post race lobby chat in GT Sport is just rainbows.

I've played games for 25 years and have never come across a community that's as competitive and at the same time as friendly as the one in GT Sport. Not sure how it is in other simracing games.
The "gl hf gg" in Starcraft doesn't count since there's nobody to be mad at there, except yourself.

 

[oskierox]

No. Who determines what speech pushes over the level and becomes bannable across platforms? There's a mute button on all games for a reason. The chats also dont accept curse words. Its fine how it is, the moment they start using AI or some other way of policing what people say its just a slippery slope.

 

[Famine]

Who determines what speech pushes over the level and becomes bannable across platforms?

The service provider does. If it's going to be cross-platform, there would need to be a universal terms of service too, so that you cannot be banned on one platform for something that isn't an offence there after being banned from another for doing it where it is an offence.

the moment they start using AI or some other way of policing what people say its just a slippery slope

Microsoft already has that tool available to it.

 

[oskierox]

The service provider does. If it's going to be cross-platform, there would need to be a universal terms of service too, so that you cannot be banned on one platform for something that isn't an offence there after being banned from another for doing it where it is an offence.

Microsoft already has that tool available to it.

Thats my point = who at the service provider? What words specifically? What "ideas" specifically? To what person/ideology/offended person am I now "gamer liable" to? That's not something I believe that can be universally judged across platforms as all people and companies have different standards. We may not like what people say, but its different than what people do. That's enforceable. This debate is hotly contested in todays climate, and creeping into the video game sphere I don't like it.

 

[Famine]

Thats my point = who at the service provider?

That would be the moderation staff. Same as GTPlanet.

What words specifically? What "ideas" specifically? To what person/ideology/offended person am I now "gamer liable" to?

That'd be in the terms of service for the relevant provider. Same as GTPlanet.

That's not something I believe that can be universally judged across platforms as all people and companies have different standards.

A point brought up in the article and my post... though the TOS at Xbox Live and PlayStation Network are in fact incredibly similar. There's not that much required to make them identical. It's not really a massive step from there to sharing moderation across both platforms.

We may not like what people say, but its different than what people do. That's enforceable.

I don't really know what "that's enforceable" means. What you say on the various gaming networks is in fact already regulated by the TOS at those gaming networks - same as it is at GTPlanet. If you break the TOS you can be sanctioned by the moderating staff, same as you can at GTPlanet.

This debate is hotly contested in todays climate, and creeping into the video game sphere I don't like it.

What debate?

"The video game sphere" already has content moderation and has since the days of the arcades (ever tried to put a swear word in alongside your high score?). Xbox Live and PlayStation Network have it right there in the terms of service, and they've been around 15 years. There's no creeping.

 

[GingerBredMan]

Gotta love people defending the right to mouth off to people in video games. If you have a problem with this you’re kinda telling on yourself.

 

[oskierox]

That would be the moderation staff. Same as GTPlanet.

That'd be in the terms of service for the relevant provider. Same as GTPlanet.

A point brought up in the article and my post... though the TOS at Xbox Live and PlayStation Network are in fact incredibly similar. There's not that much required to make them identical. It's not really a massive step from there to sharing moderation across both platforms.

I don't really know what "that's enforceable" means. What you say on the various gaming networks is in fact already regulated by the TOS at those gaming networks - same as it is at GTPlanet. If you break the TOS you can be sanctioned by the moderating staff, same as you can at GTPlanet.

What debate?

"The video game sphere" already has content moderation and has since the days of the arcades (ever tried to put a swear word in alongside your high score?). Xbox Live and PlayStation Network have it right there in the terms of service, and they've been around 15 years. There's no creeping.

I guess sphere wise/debate I was referring to the F1 idea the drivers always talk about = you dont mic up footballers because they would probably say some things in the heat of the moment that would get them in a lot of trouble. We know it happens but we do not personally hear it at the moment. People would look at their heroes quite different I assume!

Im not trying to compare GTPlanet and say Microsoft. The rules of Gtp are clear and made available before you ever make your first post if I remember correctly (correct me if I am wrong!). But we all agree and post accordingly. I think the video game space is quite different, you gather people with basically no age restrictions (as much as they try to enforce the ratings per games, kids on COD will always happen) and you have open mics in tense situations. Thats why i pointed to R3 - mute all.

On the enforceable comment I meant its much clearer to enforce actions vs words. Its the law in most countries. I.e.: You cant be in trouble for talking about violence, you definetly get in trouble for enciting violence.

Now unlike the guy above me who thinks im saying you should just be allowed to say whatever you want (which I do not believe to be true), I do believe that once you start setting some limits, if you follow that to its logical conclusion, what will they say tomorrow? What way the wind blows changes almost daily politically and i think that banning based on what they do not like or find acceptable (to an obvious level) could be how i started my first comment: a slippery slope. I wasnt trying to sound like a free speech absolutist, just wondering where the limits are based on a world of different people, ideas, languages, etc.

 

[matrix_gt1]

I guess sphere wise/debate I was referring to the F1 idea the drivers always talk about = you dont mic up footballers because they would probably say some things in the heat of the moment that would get them in a lot of trouble. We know it happens but we do not personally hear it at the moment. People would look at their heroes quite different I assume!

Im not trying to compare GTPlanet and say Microsoft. The rules of Gtp are clear and made available before you ever make your first post if I remember correctly (correct me if I am wrong!). But we all agree and post accordingly. I think the video game space is quite different, you gather people with basically no age restrictions (as much as they try to enforce the ratings per games, kids on COD will always happen) and you have open mics in tense situations. Thats why i pointed to R3 - mute all.

On the enforceable comment I meant its much clearer to enforce actions vs words. Its the law in most countries. I.e.: You cant be in trouble for talking about violence, you definetly get in trouble for enciting violence.

Now unlike the guy above me who thinks im saying you should just be allowed to say whatever you want (which I do not believe to be true), I do believe that once you start setting some limits, if you follow that to its logical conclusion, what will they say tomorrow? What way the wind blows changes almost daily politically and i think that banning based on what they do not like or find acceptable (to an obvious level) could be how i started my first comment: a slippery slope. I wasnt trying to sound like a free speech absolutist, just wondering where the limits are based on a world of different people, ideas, languages, etc.

Heat of the moment words of frustration still need to be accountable. Remember the virtual nascar series in 2019? Driver says a disgusting racist term on stream and got highly disciplined for it and rightfully so.

In f1. Vettel was talking to the media who can at times be way more critical than the FIA on the drivers. What he says about the comparison of f1 to Football was correct. Though the FIA and FIFA would probably have similar terms of service when it comes to speech. Saying someone is being an idiot on the track or field is one thing. But thankfully their are restrictions in place which help punish and stop events happen like the one during the virtual nascar series.

 

[oskierox]

Hear of the moment words of frustration still need to be accountable. Remember the virtual nascar series I’m 2019? Driver says a disgusting racist term on stream and got highly disciplined for it and rightfully so.

In f1. Vettel was talking to the media who can at times be way more critical than the FIA on the drivers. What he says about the comparison of f1 to football was correct. Though the FIA and FIFA would probably have similar terms of service when it comes to speech. Saying someone is being an idiot on the track or field is one thing. But thankfully their are restrictions in place which help punish and stop events happen like the one during the virtual nascar series.

I agree there are lines that when crossed many can agree these are unforgiveable. I dont want some egghead in silicon valley dictating beyond which is where my apprehension is coming from

 

[JoshMead]

Certainly against it if its all encompassing, as in privatized lobbies/chats as well. Bad enough games like Forza Horizon are permabanning people for genuinely harmless liveries, I don't care to have such implications from casual conversations made with friends. I especially don't trust an ai to judge what's genuine hostility and what's banter either. Just another means of sullying our experiences to keep us all "safe" from ourselves.

 

[samdu]

Imagine, if you will, someone typing something that violates Twitter's terms of service and getting banned from all social media as a result. That's where this leads.

 

[ImaRobot]

Imagine, if you will, someone typing something that violates Twitter's terms of service and getting banned from all social media as a result. That's where this leads.

Imagine signing up and agreeing to a Terms of Service on some sort of application, and then not following the rules you agreed to and get in trouble.

Don't do something stupid and you wont have to worry about repercussions of stupid actions.

 

[GingerBredMan]

I don’t understand what we’re getting at with this being a “slippery slope”. Racial and sexual harassment are pretty specific things. I can’t speak to what AI could do in these situations, but I highly doubt people would get banned for casual conversation because of this.

Also, comparing gamers to professional athletes is kind of a joke. Athletes also get punished for saying racist or sexist things.

 

[matrix_gt1]

I don’t understand what we’re getting at with this being a “slippery slope”. Racial and sexual harassment are pretty specific things. I can’t speak to what AI could do in these situations, but I highly doubt people would get banned for casual conversation because of this.

Also, comparing gamers to professional athletes is kind of a joke. Athletes also get punished for saying racist or sexist things.

Yeah as Famine mentioned, its not like the rules of Xbox and PlayStation are really that different.

Don’t be a sexiest, racist person and everyone should be fine.

 

[Imari]

Imagine, if you will, someone typing something that violates Twitter's terms of service and getting banned from all social media as a result. That's where this leads.

 

[MIE1992]

View attachment 1107016

Based. I left a lot of social media platforms recently, and I feel better-off for doing so.

 

[graesand]

User Deleted

 

[matrix_gt1]

Censorship. Its better than sliced bread.
Conform, obey!

Ah yes censorship, the dirty word of the world. In the case of society, being censored when speaking disgusting profanities about another person based on sex and race is a good thing. That and political uprising are things Microsoft and Sony have never wanted affiliated with their consoles. I really don’t get why people are upset over this. If the companies views on “censorship” were widely different, I’d understand peoples concerns, but they are not.

 

[tankuroded]

Imagine signing up and agreeing to a Terms of Service on some sort of application, and then not following the rules you agreed to and get in trouble.

View attachment 1106911

Don't do something stupid and you wont have to worry about repercussions of stupid actions.

My interpretation with the post you quoted seems that if one service suspends you, others will also do that even if you didn't do that on their "lawn".

 

[oskierox]

I can’t speak to what AI could do in these situations, but I highly doubt people would get banned for casual conversation because of this.

Where is the certainty on this? It would have to be very clear what speech is bannable and what isn't, and I don't trust hipster Rasputin in LA to determine what is or isn't acceptable speech. Why is everyone so ready and willing to let these global corporations become the moral arbiters of our day? Who gave them that right?

 

[Famine]

Why is everyone so ready and willing to let these global corporations become the moral arbiters of our day?

They're not. They're willing to let them become the moral arbiters of what goes on within their platforms.

Who gave them that right?

Anyone who ticks "I have read and agreed to the Terms & Conditions" and then uses the service.


You agree to their rules to use their service. Same as you agree to GTPlanet's to use GTPlanet. Or any other private entity.

 

[ImaRobot]

My interpretation with the post you quoted seems that if one service suspends you, others will also do that even if you didn't do that on their "lawn".

Yes, because we're talking about linked applications here on multiple levels, so there is going to be a ToS that is united between them all. If you're going to be using that service in any way, and you break the rules, you're going to be dealt with. That should have been simple to understand.

 

[GingerBredMan]

Where is the certainty on this? It would have to be very clear what speech is bannable and what isn't, and I don't trust hipster Rasputin in LA to determine what is or isn't acceptable speech. Why is everyone so ready and willing to let these global corporations become the moral arbiters of our day? Who gave them that right?

Basically all you’re saying here is while you use these corporations products, they shouldn’t be able to hold you accountable for anything you do while using their product? You’re trying to create the perception that random people are going to get banned for harmless conversation when this clearly pertains to verbal harassment. If you’re at all concerned about this, again, you’re telling on yourself. We’re not talking about dropping f-bombs.

As you alluded to earlier, if you’re so concerned about that, why not just mute yourself?

 

[oskierox]

Basically all you’re saying here is while you use these corporations products, they shouldn’t be able to hold you accountable for anything you do while using their product? You’re trying to create the perception that random people are going to get banned for harmless conversation when this clearly pertains to verbal harassment. If you’re at all concerned about this, again, you’re telling on yourself. We’re not talking about dropping f-bombs.

As you alluded to earlier, if you’re so concerned about that, why not just mute yourself?

I stated my main overarching point earlier - it's masked as verbal abuse now (WHICH I've also said I believe we can all agree with, there is so much you aren't allowed, and shouldn't be allowed to say), but follow it to its logical conclusion and where does it lead to? And yes, I am creating the perception that "harmless conversation" can and will get you banned, or more specifically, anything they (Microsoft) do not agree with. That was all I was bringing up. What is stopping them from eventually reaching that point? And with 0 push-back from communities, I don't see how they do not go down that path considering what we are seeing worldwide.

And @Famine, I don't understand why you keep comparing my statements to the ToS at GTPlanet. I don't usually come to GTP to talk politics, or "hang out" with people. If you see my site history, i'm like 99% in auto news and in Assetto Corsa Mods Discussion, with a very specific purpose. When i'm gaming i'm just chatting and hanging with my friends. Here's an example:

I'm on public voice chat with some friends and we are loading into a game, "Man I cant wait to vote for (insert whatever name here) tomorrow, Im sick of (insert name) policies." "Yeah dude, would be sweet to see (insert name) out of office." Meanwhile, we loaded into a game and someone heard that on our voice comm's on the other side, they then report me for "offensive speech" - and it goes to an AI or someone at Microsoft - I don't know who's in charge, what they believe, where the gray area is here but maybe (insert name) name is on a trigger chart or something, and they ban me for offensive speech. Is it so hard to see this happening? Maybe I can fight it and say this wasn't offensive, but should I even have to?

And before you say, just create a private party chat - I have an old PS4, and creating/joining party chats literally breaks my system and I need to restart the system, 1 out of 4 times it works. My friends and I just say eh whatever, let's just play on regular comms its not worth the hassle trying to party chat up.

I've laid my concern out as clear as I can, and i understand from here on out it will basically just be political, so i apologize in advance and will refrain from anymore from here on out

 

[Famine]

And @Famine, I don't understand why you keep comparing my statements to the ToS at GTPlanet.

Really?

We're a private entity. In order to use our service, you have to agree to our terms of service - which includes some things on what you're not allowed to say. If you breach our terms of service, we can withdraw your ability to use it.

Microsoft is a private entity. In order to use its service, you have to agree to its terms of service - which includes some things on what you're not allowed to say. If you breach its terms of service, it can withdraw your ability to use it.


It's really weird that you'd think one of those things is okay and the other isn't. They're either both okay (and they are) or not.

 

[ImaRobot]

I stated my main overarching point earlier - it's masked as verbal abuse now (WHICH I've also said I believe we can all agree with, there is so much you aren't allowed, and shouldn't be allowed to say), but follow it to its logical conclusion and where does it lead to? And yes, I am creating the perception that "harmless conversation" can and will get you banned, or more specifically, anything they (Microsoft) do not agree with. That was all I was bringing up. What is stopping them from eventually reaching that point? And with 0 push-back from communities, I don't see how they do not go down that path considering what we are seeing worldwide.

It leads to people who are doing and saying outright offense and stupid things getting banned. Rightfully so, too. Yes of course it'll be anything they don't agree with, they made their own rules and you agreed to them. It's that simple. They can write in their TOS that you have to do a handstand each time before playing, and if you agree to it, that's your own issue at that point if you don't want to follow what you agreed with. Now, you'll literally never see anything like that ever, but the point being is that you agreed to follow rules they laid out clearly, and it's entirely up to them what those rules are.

I've laid my concern out as clear as I can, and i understand from here on out it will basically just be political, so i apologize in advance and will refrain from anymore from here on out

Your concern is very clear, you're right. It just doesn't make much sense.

 

[lancia delta hf]

Imagine signing up and agreeing to a Terms of Service on some sort of application, and then not following the rules you agreed to and get in trouble.

View attachment 1106911

Don't do something stupid and you wont have to worry about repercussions of stupid actions.

What's normal and not stupid today when you agree may not be normal and still not stupid tommorow and get you banned. For example saying men cannot be women on Twitter will get you banned today. That is a normal stance by the vast majority of people. Maybe that comment will get you banned on the consoles. How about not being able to say someone name unless its negative? Yes that's a thing a thing on FB. Or course there is no reason to be abusive, but how about people just deal with things themselves? Mute idiots, only chat in private chats. We are bringing up such a feeble generation.


P.s I reported spam trying to scam me on psn to Sony and they replied I may get banned if i abuse the report system. I used it once. Tget should concentrate on things like that rather babying adults speech. Its easy to avoid abuse if you're a kid. Some of us adults like it when some idiot gets mouthy, like in rocket league. Adds spice to the match, not all of us are pissy soft flowers.

 

[McLaren]

Basically all you’re saying here is while you use these corporations products, they shouldn’t be able to hold you accountable for anything you do while using their product? You’re trying to create the perception that random people are going to get banned for harmless conversation when this clearly pertains to verbal harassment. If you’re at all concerned about this, again, you’re telling on yourself. We’re not talking about dropping f-bombs.

As you alluded to earlier, if you’re so concerned about that, why not just mute yourself?

Nailed it. Soon as I saw the word "censor" getting thrown around, it's obvious what some folks are really afraid of being banned for.

MS/Sony is likely talking about banning people from doing quite obvious things: dropping racist terms, making extremely hateful comments, harassing people, just clearly insulting rhetoric. I highly doubt either platform is going to ban you from your political takes over transgenders, Covid, etc. etc., unless you're outright making comments advocating for harm and/or violence. But, folks overly concerned with this indirectly showcase their own overt fear over nothing unless, as GingerBredMan says, there's more on your mind regarding a subject than just "disagreeing" with it.

The post above is prime example of fear & irony: "You could get banned if you abuse the report system" being some sort of issue whilst also self-reporting in the same post with the claim, "We're bringing up such a feeble generation". Dog, you're taking up issue with a simple warning that's been around for years because people on gaming systems will literally abuse report systems because they think someone else is cheating & owning them repeatedly, and spam reports. That's a big reason why such warning exists, not because of reporting spam one time. There's no cause of concern, you just got a warning everyone gets & clearly did not apply to you....


Couple of ya'll tattle on yourselves & don't realize the ridiculousness of your own approaches.

 

[ImaRobot]

What's normal and not stupid today when you agree may not be normal and still not stupid tommorow and get you banned. For example saying men cannot be women on Twitter will get you banned today. That is a normal stance by the vast majority of people. Maybe that comment will get you banned on the consoles. How about not being able to say someone name unless its negative? Yes that's a thing a thing on FB. Or course there is no reason to be abusive, but how about people just deal with things themselves? Mute idiots, only chat in private chats. We are bringing up such a feeble generation.


P.s I reported spam trying to scam me on psn to Sony and they replied I may get banned if i abuse the report system. I used it once. Tget should concentrate on things like that rather babying adults speech. Its easy to avoid abuse if you're a kid. Some of us adults like it when some idiot gets mouthy, like in rocket league. Adds spice to the match, not all of us are pissy soft flowers.

That more or less doesn't change anything. You have the choice to agree to a ToS or not. That's how it's always been, so how about we just expect people to actually follow rules instead? I mean, if people weren't such dip****s, things like this wouldn't have to exist - yet here we are. There's no need for it to be pushed to the user to moderate for themselves, if they want to cool but it should be dealt with from the actual people providing services as well.

I don't care what people call me, there's probably a lot of people out there like me too. I however can understand where this is coming from, because the online atmosphere is the most toxic and stupid thing, and it's constant. I'm all for the annoying people getting removed, even if it doesn't affect me either way. Because I'm not the one that is going to be doing anything stupid for it to actually affect me.