You know how difficult and time consuming...

[redhed17]

You know how difficult and time consuming some people say it is for PD to model cars and tracks, well on the front page of the site my eye got caught by a link to a Forza Motorsport 7 photo competition, so I went and had a look. Some very nice pics. I saw a particularly nice one of a TVR Sagaris. :-) So then I had a look at the specs of FM7.

Total Cars: 741
Total Manufacturer: 90
Forza Editions: 39
DLC Cars: 34

Tracks: 32

How have they been able to do all that at a similar quality level to GT and PD haven't? It can't be money. If you look at how many games PD have sold over the years they should be swimming in the stuff. The mind boggles that some people are happy with what PD have given them.

I know, before you say it, if you are not happy with it then go and whatever.... But seriously, how can one company deliver so much, and another not.

I have been hooked on GT since I first saw a Japanese import playing in my local games shop. I bought a modded console and the game. :-) And have bought every GT since. I even bought a PS4 just to play GT Sport, so I am no 'hater'. Is it purely that PD just do what they want and either like it or lump it! Because as far as the number of cars at least, I thought GT Sport was a bit low compared to previous games, but when a competitor can do that number of cars, albeit on a different machine, but the same generation of machine as the PS4, it makes me think at least, that GT users may not be getting the best treatment.

Make of that what you will. I'm in a grumpy mood stuck inside on holiday, and saw the original FM7 photo thread which prompted this.

 

[Scuderia Paul]

A huge amount of car asset modelling is outsourced to third-party studios by T10, whereas Polyphony do everything in-house.

 

[JacksHerer]

It makes me sigh when I read people comparing what GTS has achieved compared to PC2, Asseto Corsa, Forza etc - a whole bunch of games THAT DO NOT SUPPORT VR!!!!!!!!

Just rehashed games with improved grahics of the most part, games that are on PC, so they probably just need to turn the graphics from low to medium on a PC graphics setting.

GTS is like 2 games compared to the competition. I don't know how difficult or time consuming it is to make every car and every track work in VR and have it be awesome.... but I do know the competition can't do it.

 

[VeeDoubleU]

I don't know how difficult or time consuming it is to make every car and every track work in VR and have it be awesome.... but I do know the competition can't do it.

Aren't the competition (except Forza) able to do it on PC?

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Not only do T10 outsource their models, they also use the basic skeletons of returning cars from previous games. If I remember correctly someone pointed out that Forza's MR2's skeleton goes all the way back to either the original Forza or Forza 3. This makes it easier to remodel the cars to the new standard

PD dumped basically everything they had when they made GT Sport- except maybe for the Aventador. But even that's a stretch

Honestly if you can, just buy Forza. It's even easier now that Forza 7 is available on Windows too, so no more Xbox required. I would if I could, since I still get the car collecting craving once in a while

 

[JacksHerer]

I think only asseto corsa has added actual VR menu support, but the developers aren't doing anything different to the game on PC for it to run - they require you having an expensive super computer.
They can't get them to run on console, because that would mean practically making a whole new game.

Edit - also, all those PC games were always built and run on PC, porting them to PS4 is easy in comparison to bringing PS3 assets to PS4.
Going forward, if PS5 stays on the PS4(PC architecture) things will be quicker.

 

[KK78]

I'd wager Turn 10 (bankrolled directly by Microsoft) will have much deeper pockets than PD, I know Sony fund PD but Sony are not in the habit of throwing money at it's developers as much as MS do. The simple fact Turn 10 put out more games in less time than PD demonstrates the resource and man power difference, it's not apples for apples even though it appears so on the surface.

 

[redhed17]

It makes me sigh when I read people comparing what GTS has achieved compared to PC2, Asseto Corsa, Forza etc - a whole bunch of games THAT DO NOT SUPPORT VR!!!!!!!!

Just rehashed games with improved grahics of the most part, games that are on PC, so they probably just need to turn the graphics from low to medium on a PC graphics setting.

GTS is like 2 games compared to the competition. I don't know how difficult or time consuming it is to make every car and every track work in VR and have it be awesome.... but I do know the competition can't do it.

Is VR a big thing amongst the vast majority GT users? I know I have no interest in it. If the VR angle is the cause of the low number of cars and tracks then imho that is an amazing miscalculation of the demand. Maybe the competition doesn't do it because they they know the size of that market at the moment. If PD feel there is great demand for VR then bring out a separate VR game at some point.

As for just turning up the graphics settings, hasn't the detail and the underlying data already got to be there to enhance!

Not only do T10 outsource their models, they also use the basic skeletons of returning cars from previous games. If I remember correctly someone pointed out that Forza's MR2's skeleton goes all the way back to either the original Forza or Forza 3. This makes it easier to remodel the cars to the new standard

PD dumped basically everything they had when they made GT Sport- except maybe for the Aventador. But even that's a stretch

Does the average user know or care what and when the underlying skeleton of the model was made/used as long as the car looks good and handles in a 'realistic' manner. Surely starting from scratch every time is a stupid thing to if it harms productivity for seemingly little material gain other that to say we started from scratch. :-/

 

[Crazy Taylor]

To be fair a large amount of cars are from pervious series on this generation. This is the 1st gt game on ps4.

 

[Voodoovaj]

You know how difficult and time consuming some people say it is for PD to model cars and tracks, well on the front page of the site my eye got caught by a link to a Forza Motorsport 7 photo competition, so I went and had a look. Some very nice pics. I saw a particularly nice one of a TVR Sagaris. :-) So then I had a look at the specs of FM7.

Total Cars: 741
Total Manufacturer: 90
Forza Editions: 39
DLC Cars: 34

Tracks: 32

How have they been able to do all that at a similar quality level to GT and PD haven't? It can't be money. If you look at how many games PD have sold over the years they should be swimming in the stuff. The mind boggles that some people are happy with what PD have given them.

I know, before you say it, if you are not happy with it then go and whatever.... But seriously, how can one company deliver so much, and another not.

I have been hooked on GT since I first saw a Japanese import playing in my local games shop. I bought a modded console and the game. :-) And have bought every GT since. I even bought a PS4 just to play GT Sport, so I am no 'hater'. Is it purely that PD just do what they want and either like it or lump it! Because as far as the number of cars at least, I thought GT Sport was a bit low compared to previous games, but when a competitor can do that number of cars, albeit on a different machine, but the same generation of machine as the PS4, it makes me think at least, that GT users may not be getting the best treatment.

Make of that what you will. I'm in a grumpy mood stuck inside on holiday, and saw the original FM7 photo thread which prompted this.

One word. Resources.

Turn 10 is more of a traditional dev with traditional dev practicies like ramping up people and outsourcing when needed. PD shows all the signs of being a small developer. Smaller devs take longer to achieve the same results.

 

[Lord Protector]

You do realize that Forza 7 uses old assets, from previous games, right? Some of them are as old as Forza 3.

Whereas in GT Sport, everything was created from scratch (apart from some DLC cars, which were further upgraded anyway).

One word. Resources.

Turn 10 is more of a traditional dev with traditional dev practicies like ramping up people and outsourcing when needed. PD shows all the signs of being a small developer. Smaller devs take longer to achieve the same results.

Partly this too, but be aware that PD being Japanese, they take the development really seriously. It is their game and they always want to keep an eye on it.

 

[Lee x sensai]

I rather PD do own model work in house. and not outsourcing there model from someone else.
I want appreciate the hard work they put in.
I don't want them to be like other developers just lazy steal other people stuff without paying them.

 

[redhed17]

I'd wager Turn 10 (bankrolled directly by Microsoft) will have much deeper pockets than PD, I know Sony fund PD but Sony are not in the habit of throwing money at it's developers as much as MS do. The simple fact Turn 10 put out more games in less time than PD demonstrates the resource and man power difference, it's not apples for apples even though it appears so on the surface.

I think Sony know how big a franchise GT has been to the success of the Playstation in its various generations, and I'm sure they know that their investment will be returned many times the more successful a GT game is. 76m+ games is a lot of money generated. Deliver the best game and you maybe take some Forza users, don't and you risk losing some. Lose them and you maybe lose sales of Playstation's too. If the next GT game is on the PS5, and it is similar to GT Sport, I doubt I would be in any hurry to buy console or game.

GT Sport got me to buy a PS4, the same again with shinier graphics and working VR will probably not have me coming back to a PS5. Especially if they persist with most of the game being usable online, and only saving progress when connected.

 

[Cayit]

BUT You CAN'T change the fact that we had with GTS at the beginning only about 165 Cars to Drive...
I also would love to have right at the beginning of GTS around 800 or more Cars...But we didn't....

Hopefully with time we will be getting there...

 

[redhed17]

I rather PD do own model work in house. and not outsourcing there model from someone else.
I want appreciate the hard work they put in.
I don't want them to be like other developers just lazy steal other people stuff without paying them.

I'd appreciate the time and effort a craftsmen puts in if it were and exceptional result, but I doubt even the most blinkered PD fanboy (or girl) can say GT Sport has been worth the wait. Yes it is great to have a GT game on the PS4, but is there anything, the niche VR feature aside, which couldn't have been done on launch of the console with enough manpower to model the cars and the tracks?

If by outsourcing you keep the quality but speed up development why not outsource. What is the benefit of doing it all in house?

Do developers steal stuff and don't pay for it? I bow to your superior knowledge.

BUT You CAN'T change the fact that we had with GTS at the beginning only about 165 Cars to Drive...
I also would love to have right at the beginning of GTS around 800 or more Cars...But we didn't....

Hopefully with time we will be getting there...

At less than 20 cars a month, and that was only for the certain number of months, that may take some time. No cluse as to what happens after their original promise of cars and tracks that I have seen yet.

And if they are taking this long to generate cars and tracks, then any game for a PS5 may never appear. ;-)

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Does the average user know or care what and when the underlying skeleton of the model was made/used as long as the car looks good and handles in a 'realistic' manner. Surely starting from scratch every time is a stupid thing to if it harms productivity for seemingly little material gain other that to say we started from scratch. :-/

No the average user doesn't. The result of doing everything from scratch is the eye candy that you see in GTS. Arguably the best graphics in this genre. Forza comes close but not quite because of them using previous assets (try to compare the MR2 of Forza and GTS)
But the vastly larger amount of cars that Forza has is totally worth it. I think the reason why PD did this despite the setbacks being so bad is because of the amount of complaints they got with standard cars back in GT5/6

 

[Crazy Taylor]

If they proceed at a rate of 12/13 cars a month (if they want to carry on that trend). You cam be looking at over 250 extra cars in the next 2 years.

 

[kjeldsen]

You know how difficult and time consuming some people say it is for PD to model cars and tracks, well on the front page of the site my eye got caught by a link to a Forza Motorsport 7 photo competition, so I went and had a look. Some very nice pics. I saw a particularly nice one of a TVR Sagaris. :-) So then I had a look at the specs of FM7.

Total Cars: 741
Total Manufacturer: 90
Forza Editions: 39
DLC Cars: 34

Tracks: 32

How have they been able to do all that at a similar quality level to GT and PD haven't? It can't be money. If you look at how many games PD have sold over the years they should be swimming in the stuff. The mind boggles that some people are happy with what PD have given them.

I know, before you say it, if you are not happy with it then go and whatever.... But seriously, how can one company deliver so much, and another not.

I have been hooked on GT since I first saw a Japanese import playing in my local games shop. I bought a modded console and the game. :-) And have bought every GT since. I even bought a PS4 just to play GT Sport, so I am no 'hater'. Is it purely that PD just do what they want and either like it or lump it! Because as far as the number of cars at least, I thought GT Sport was a bit low compared to previous games, but when a competitor can do that number of cars, albeit on a different machine, but the same generation of machine as the PS4, it makes me think at least, that GT users may not be getting the best treatment.

Make of that what you will. I'm in a grumpy mood stuck inside on holiday, and saw the original FM7 photo thread which prompted this.

Outsourcing to get cheap assets..

Microsoft's Forza Motorsport outsourced parts of the production to three different studios: Washington-based Valkyrie Entertainment, Glass Egg Digital Media of Vietnam, and Dhruva Interactive from India.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131036/gdc_successful_outsourcing_on_aaa_.php

 

[MatskiMonk]

Outsourcing to get cheap assets..

Microsoft's Forza Motorsport outsourced parts of the production to three different studios: Washington-based Valkyrie Entertainment, Glass Egg Digital Media of Vietnam, and Dhruva Interactive from India.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131036/gdc_successful_outsourcing_on_aaa_.php

Yeah, I'd imagine you can get at least 5 times the number of people for the same budget if your sourcing labour from countries like Vietnam and India.

US Average wage €2187
Japan Average wage €2133

India Average wage €442
Vietnam Average wage €295

 

[kjeldsen]

Yeah, I'd imagine you can get at least 5 times the number of people for the same budget if your sourcing labour from countries like Vietnam and India.

US Average wage €2187
Japan Average wage €2133

India Average wage €442
Vietnam Average wage €295

There is something about how you approach these things, i think that PD takes pride in doing everything themselves.

 

[redhed17]

Cheaper doesn't necessarily equate to a drop in quality. And if the quality is kept high, and is done in addition to in house modelling, then speed of production is the big gain. Something PD have continually fallen short on.

There is something about how you approach these things, i think that PD takes pride in doing everything themselves.

Erm, what's the phrase, "pride comes before a ....." ;-)

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Erm, what's the phrase, "pride comes before a ....." ;-)

It's culture. Nothing much we can do about that really :/

 

[Crazy Taylor]

It's culture. Nothing much we can do about that really :/

Kinda like being a kopite then.

 

[inri]

i like gran turismo a whole lot more than forza so i personally think the team behind gran turismo shouldnt try to be like the team behind forza

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Kinda like being a kopite then.

Wait I don't know what a kopite is

 

[Crazy Taylor]

Wait I don't know what a kopite is

A liverpool supporter

 

[MatskiMonk]

Cheaper doesn't necessarily equate to a drop in quality. And if the quality is kept high, and is done in addition to in house modelling, then speed of production is the big gain. Something PD have continually fallen short on.

Falling short or not, if numbers like that are representative then it's a perfectly legitimate reason for the discrepancy you're talking about in the OP... and IMHO understandable (to a point) - GT is very much a product of it's Japanese heritage, that's been evident from the start of the series, and it doesn't surprise me that part of Kaz's 'vision' for Gran-Turismo is to keep Japanese blood running through it's veins as much as possible. If you don't like it then you absolutely have the right to vote with your wallet and invest in competing products.

There's never been a GT where I haven't wanted more cars, but I've only expected it in the second installment per console generation.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

A liverpool supporter

Ahhh

 

[Lee x sensai]

I'd appreciate the time and effort a craftsmen puts in if it were and exceptional result, but I doubt even the most blinkered PD fanboy (or girl) can say GT Sport has been worth the wait. Yes it is great to have a GT game on the PS4, but is there anything, the niche VR feature aside, which couldn't have been done on launch of the console with enough manpower to model the cars and the tracks?

If by outsourcing you keep the quality but speed up development why not outsource. What is the benefit of doing it all in house?

Do developers steal stuff and don't pay for it? I bow to your superior knowledge.

It great for speeding up the work. But Some time the car model in game don't look like exactly the same like other. Having only contract worker from other country. You pay cheap for there work to save money. It is good thing for you don't go over budget. but you will get less high quality model or sometime good quality. It end up 50/50 thing, you ending not like some car because it look like toy plastic model. For in house you know who your best person is and not some random people you just do work for you one time.

The stealing stuff yeah they real. Someone from the community found there moded version of AC F1 car in Codemaster F1 2017. I want to say this. How you could afford F1 right but can't afford equipment to scan a car or the people help out ? What annoying the most they tend brush it like nothing happen.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/did-codemasters-copy-this-modders-in-f1-2017.1751/

 

[Shirrako]

GT has higher quality models with more polygons, Forza has some cars that look better than others, while in GT Sport they all look great.

However, Track wise Polyphony has no excuse, they kinda suck, lack of dynamic weather saves a lot of work, and they still are taking ages with bringing Spa/Le Mans.