Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Dravonic]

I'll give you a few reasons why Forza and GT5 are fairly equal, like I said though, nobody here has played the official release copy.

Forza has better tracks, better damage, at least right now a better tuning program, and could have better cars.

GT5 has its plus items like the night/day thing, probably better physics, etc.

Since we don't have any standards to measure how good a game is, which one is better is subjective, therefore it's up to the individual.

I have quite a long list of reasons why I think GT5 is better, but they don't really make GT5 better then Forza 3 to anyone but me. That and this discussion being off topic is why I won't go any further.

I regret I answered you already. Hopefully my mistake won't spur yet another "GT vs Forza" discussion.

 

[shadynader]

Speculative? Yes.
Far fetched? No.
Wrong? Not necessarily.

Answer me this.

4*5-10+?=

If you solved that equation I will gladly agree that all this speculation is not far fetched. Oh wait, you don't have all the numbers! Now you could start to speculate on what that number will be, you could take an 'educated guess' on what that number might be based on the other numbers and get lucky, but the chances are because you don't know the full equation, your going to be pulling the number out of your ass as you so eloquently put it.


@Dividander

To be honest i breezed over your post as it is still pure speculation and does not differ from your last few posts. I have already said I am not willing to speculate whether it be in favor of PD's strategy or against it. All i know is who is worth trusting when it comes to delivering a great product.

 

[Dravonic]

Speculative? Yes.
Far fetched? No.
Wrong? Not necessarily.

Answer me this.

4*5-10+?=

If you solved that equation I will gladly agree that all this speculation is not far fetched. Oh wait, you don't have all the numbers! Now you could start to speculate on what that number will be, you could take an 'educated guess' on what that number might be based on the other numbers and get lucky, but the chances are because you don't know the full equation, your going to be pulling the number out of your ass as you so eloquently put it.

I have a feeling the part you quoted is the only part of my post you actually read...

Not sure why you're trying to tell me what I'm doing, specially since what you described is not what I'm doing.

We have a bunch of facts. Based on them, I'm speculating PD did manage GT5 poorly. There is no element I'm pulling out of my ass. I'm not building my speculation in unsubstantiated arguments. I'm building it on facts. As you said, and as I said in my previous post, it doesn't mean I'm right. It's still speculation. However, since I'm basing it on facts, it's an educated guess, not a wild one out of nowhere as you imply.

EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean now. You're saying I may be missing some important fact, so I may be reaching a wrong conclusion. Well, that's what speculation is. I'm well aware of that. I hope everyone else is too. Does it make it far fetched though? Quite a bunch of facts point in this direction and it's not like I'm conveniently omitting facts that show otherwise, is it?

 

[twisteddeeds]

Man, looks like the circle is complete, another old arguement rears its ugly head...

Here we go again...

 

[Dan_]

It's quite obvious that PD did many mistakes during the development: lack of focus, poor management, developing a game in between, underestimating the effort needed to model Premium cars, the decision to include the old assets just to make the numbers ( which has a positive and negative side, not going into this though) and so on. But even if PD fail miserably at some points, they still deliver a nice work to balance the equation, and we got plenty of time to "fix" everything for GT6 now.

Honestly, I always tend to see things from a positive perspective and judging the situation as a whole, the Standards are a nice addition to make the numbers and to keep the experience as variated as possible. Quality-wise they aren't the best thing in the world, but judging by the fun factor they'll offer to me, I personally take their inclusion as an extremely positive and well taken decision.

 

[twisteddeeds]

It's quite obvious that PD did many mistakes during the development: lack of focus, poor management, developing a game in between, underestimating the effort needed to model Premium cars, the decision to include the old assets just to make the numbers ( which has a positive and negative side, not going into this though) and so on. But even if PD fail miserably at some points, they still deliver a nice work to balance the equation, and we got plenty of time to "fix" everything for GT6 now.

Honestly, I always tend to see things from a positive perspective and judging the situation as a whole, the Standards are a nice addition to make the numbers and to keep the experience as variated as possible. Quality-wise they aren't the best thing in the world, but judging by the fun factor they'll offer to me, I personally take their inclusion as an extremely positive and well taken decision.

Excellent post.. very well put there DAN

 

[analog]

You are still repeating the same thing over and over, it doesent matter how you formulate and reformulate your idea, you are basically blaming polyphony digital of bad management because they didnt achieve 1000 premium cars in 6 years of development time and with 80 million $ of budget.

I think if you had read most ( or most more recent ) posts here by a lot of those who are disappointed or bothered by this whole two-tier issue you would have known that most would agree they couldn't have pulled of a 1000 Premium cars.
The whole 1000 number originates from PD themselves as they wanted to include a 1000 cars into GT5.
Most here would agree it's not purely the numbers ( although 200 Premium cars only is lower than most expected I guess ) but the inconsistency of having a two-tier system and the Standard cars missing certain key features ( like cockpit view ).

I think many would have expected the first GT game on a new console ( and with a new way of modelling ) would not match the car count of GT4 ( being the final incarnation on the last console ) and would have settled for roughly half or even less than the number of cars in GT4.
In fact I didn't expect to see a 1000 cars, but when PD announced it would include at least 950 I was hugely impressed, especially since they conveniently enough didn't tell ( at least not in clear terms as to what the majority of those cars consisted of and what truly separated these different car models from each other ) 80% were ported from GT4 and let's not forget GT5 Prologue which if it were a real representation of the final game could perhaps have included some Standard cars to be accurate and not get people's expectations up.

The fact those Premium cars are shown proudly and the level of detail perhaps even being completely over the top regarding some aspects which could be perceived as non-essential or not even noticeable unless you tried to look for them in screenshots ( and this is coming from someone who's a sucker for detail ) whilst the Standard cars are nowhere to be found apart from a small video makes a suggestion of possible mismanagement not that far-fetched.

Maybe it wasn't mismanagement as in unintentional or accidental, maybe they indeed planned this from the start ( we simply don't know ).
Than at least you might reasonably expect some people to form the opinion they seriously got their priorities wrong.
You indeed couldn't expect a 1000 cars offering the amount of detail those Premium screenshots display but I don't remember anyone expecting all nuts, bolts and welding spots being accurately modelled as it's still a PS3 game.
The fact they went out and gone crazy on those Premium cars ( and don't get me wrong they do look great ) and even Kaz admitting they did and they were more suited for the PS4 perhaps and on the other hand offer ported cars form a last gen game doesn't really sound like a consistent and well balanced goal to me.
I merely expected to play a game designed and focussed on the current gen hardware which would offer the same consistency and treated all cars equally important as previous GT-games did.

 

[AleksandarSRB]

Because?

They have better lighting, shadow's and probable bigger polly number...
Sorry for my english

 

[Pierced Lead]

forza has better tracks, better damage, at least right now a better tuning program, and could have better cars.

lawl

lawl

lawl

 

[KilzoneStrife]

2 laps in Nurburgring..Im falling asleep,Forza 3,2 feels dead..the tracks are dreary.as for the standard cars,looks about on par to forzas,except the damage model wont be like it at all.but I have to ask..damage... ,if its a GT4 model,which standard cars are for a fact.they mention scratchs and dents,just not on premium level.wont damage be near non existent on them?how can they dent those cars?

 

[Gejost]

I'll give you a few reasons why Forza and GT5 are fairly equal, like I said though, nobody here has played the official release copy.

Forza has better tracks, better damage, at least right now a better tuning program, and could have better cars.

GT5 has its plus items like the night/day thing, probably better physics, etc.

Probably? With all respect, Forza 3 is a great racegame, but the physics (even on sim and everything off) are comparable to GT's standard physics. Not much of a challenge, but still fun. GT's pro physics (judging from Prologue and the Acadamy trial) on the other hand are very challeging and well, simple put, alot better.

 

[Mr Frappy]

I'll give you a few reasons why Forza and GT5 are fairly equal, like I said though, nobody here has played the official release copy.

Unless they have come back from the future, nobody has played the official release copy, period.

Forza has better tracks, better damage, at least right now a better tuning program, and could have better cars.

• Better tracks? That's personal opinion.
• Better damage? We haven't seen the full extent of the damage engine in GT5, although I'd hardly call it a claim to fame if Forza 3 did end up better because it's hardly a realistic damage engine in itself.
• Better tuning programme? Right now, yes, but then again I buy racing games to drive cars, not play with their settings for hours on end to eek out a few tenths here and a few tenths there.
• Could have better cars? Better in terms of what? Number? Quality? Or just your personal taste in cars? Do tell.

GT5 has its plus items like the night/day thing, probably better physics, etc.

Probably...and based on recent demos, almost certainly.

 

[Dravonic]

lawl

lawl

lawl

2 laps in Nurburgring..Im falling asleep,Forza 3,2 feels dead..the tracks are dreary.as for the standard cars,looks about on par to forzas,except the damage model wont be like it at all.but I have to ask..damage... ,if its a GT4 model,which standard cars are for a fact.they mention scratchs and dents,just not on premium level.wont damage be near non existent on them?how can they dent those cars?

Probably? With all respect, Forza 3 is a great racegame, but the physics (even on sim and everything off) are comparable to GT's standard physics. Not much of a challenge, but still fun. GT's pro physics (judging from Prologue and the Acadamy trial) on the other hand are very challeging and well, simple put, alot better.

Unless they have come back from the future, nobody has played the official release copy, period.

• Better tracks? That's personal opinion.
• Better damage? We haven't seen the full extent of the damage engine in GT5, although I'd hardly call it a claim to fame if Forza 3 did end up better because it's hardly a realistic damage engine in itself.
• Better tuning programme? Right now, yes, but then again I buy racing games to drive cars, not play with their settings for hours on end to eek out a few tenths here and a few tenths there.
• Could have better cars? Better in terms of what? Number? Quality? Or just your personal taste in cars? Do tell.

Probably...and based on recent demos, almost certainly.

Don't, just don't.

Trust me, just let this subject die, please. This thread has seen too much of it already. If this was a "GT vs Forza" thread, you cold do it to your heat's content, but it's not, so this discussion doesn't belong here.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I think if you had read most ( or most more recent ) posts here by a lot of those who are disappointed or bothered by this whole two-tier issue you would have known that most would agree they couldn't have pulled of a 1000 Premium cars.

This is the problem though Analog; his posts have kinda showed he doesn't actually read our posts; he just assumes what they say so it'll better help his argument .

I merely expected to play a game designed and focussed on the current gen hardware which would offer the same consistency and treated all cars equally important as previous GT-games did.

This. I think this is what a lot of us wanted, which should be a reasonable desire. 👍

if its a GT4 model,which standard cars are for a fact.they mention scratchs and dents,just not on premium level.wont damage be near non existent on them?how can they dent those cars?

They can give the illusion of dents in the same way games like Metal Gear gives you the illusion of holes in the wall when you shoot them; textures. A dent on a Standard car could very well be a texture just like a scratch is.

Don't, just don't.

Trust me, just let this subject die, please. This thread has seen too much of it already. If this was a "GT vs Forza" thread, you cold do it to your heat's content, but it's not, so this discussion doesn't belong here.

👍

 

[Mr Frappy]

Don't, just don't.

Trust me, just let this subject die, please. This thread has seen too much of it already. If this was a "GT vs Forza" thread, you cold do it to your heat's content, but it's not, so this discussion doesn't belong here.

Forza = Standard
GT5 = Premium

Sorry, couldn't resist

 

[Mr Frappy]

Unnecessary.

How ironic, I was just about to say the same thing.

Believe me, if there is one person who has no preference either way for GT or Forza, it's me. I think both are great racing series, both have their place, and both have their strengths and weaknesses. However, if somebody wants to go around forcing unfounded opinions (usually mostly negative) towards GT5, how else do you expect the thread to go?

 

[Devedander]

You are still repeating the same thing over and over, it doesent matter how you formulate and reformulate your idea, you are basically blaming polyphony digital of bad management because they didnt achieve 1000 premium cars in 6 years of development time and with 80 million $ of budget.

And again YOU ARE WRONG as I showed several times in this topic.

The irony here is it's you who keeps saying the same thing and is shown to be wrong over and over. Here is a synopsis of this thread with you in it:

DectorFouad: It's not KY's fault, or even possibly not PDs fault here is why: reason, reason, reason.

Response: No its' definitely KY and PDs fault and here is why your reasons are flawed: destroy reason, destroy reason, destroy reason.

DoctorFouad: No I am right, here are some slightly different reasons (completely ignores how previous reasons were basicaly picked apart): Reason reason, reason.

Rinse, repeate.

For example your last post, how do I know PD wanted 1000 premium cars? KY has infered and even directly said in interviews he was disapointed not all cars could be made premium and it was a time constraint issue (again failure to balance the PM triangle).

You clearly haven't followed along much, are jumping in with limited knowledge to defend PD and making a fool of yourself in the process with all your assumptions that sound good and feel good but aren't hard at all to pick apart.

No game ever has all the features they wanted at launch? And you know this how? You are some kind of insider secret spy who watches all the game companies? See you tell me I have no experience in game design, but then go on to profess like you do...

While it's highly likely that pretty much every project goes through metamorphosis during production, again, it's the balancing of the PM triangle as I explained that counts. Even if the idea doesn't make it in from the get go, you have to make sure the balance avoids causing dissapointment. It's that 4th magical part, the PR. It's all intertwined and all part of good project management.

To be honest i breezed over your post as it is still pure speculation and does not differ from your last few posts. I have already said I am not willing to speculate whether it be in favor of PD's strategy or against it. All i believe is who is worth trusting when it comes to delivering a great product.

FTFY.

You can't know it, you can believe, but at this point what you believe is just speculation

 

[Raitziger]

PD should make two games:

1. GT5 Premium
2. GT5 Standard

They did. Standard was called GT4 and Premium will be called GT5

 

[Mr Frappy]

If that is the case, say you disagree and why you do.

Thanks for the advice pal, but I don't need to be told what to say and how to say it by somebody of no authority around here. By all means feel free to report my posts to a moderator if you feel they are abusive or so off-topic to be a major distraction.

It never ceases to amaze me when people go acting all big and clever, telling others what to do in the open forums instead of sending a polite PM which might have generated a friendlier response.

 

[DoctorFouad]

The irony here is it's you who keeps saying the same thing and is shown to be wrong over and over. Here is a synopsis of this thread with you in it:

DectorFouad: It's not KY's fault, or even possibly not PDs fault here is why: reason, reason, reason.

Response: No its' definitely KY and PDs fault and here is why your reasons are flawed: destroy reason, destroy reason, destroy reason.

DoctorFouad: No I am right, here are some slightly different reasons (completely ignores how previous reasons were basicaly picked apart): Reason reason, reason.

Rinse, repeate.

For example your last post, how do I know PD wanted 1000 premium cars? KY has infered and even directly said in interviews he was disapointed not all cars could be made premium and it was a time constraint issue (again failure to balance the PM triangle).

You clearly haven't followed along much, are jumping in with limited knowledge to defend PD and making a fool of yourself in the process with all your assumptions that sound good and feel good but aren't hard at all to pick apart.

No game ever has all the features they wanted at launch? And you know this how? You are some kind of insider secret spy who watches all the game companies? See you tell me I have no experience in game design, but then go on to profess like you do...

While it's highly likely that pretty much every project goes through metamorphosis during production, again, it's the balancing of the PM triangle as I explained that counts. Even if the idea doesn't make it in from the get go, you have to make sure the balance avoids causing dissapointment. It's that 4th magical part, the PR. It's all intertwined and all part of good project management.

LOL so after your false arguments about how GT5 was badly managed because of only 200 premium cars (its your opinion I respect it but there is more evidence suggesting instead that the ambitious GT5 project was brilliantly managed), now you are falsifying evidence ?!! kazunori yamauchi disappointed he couldnt make all cars premium ?!! really ?!! and than what else ?!! kazunori yamauchi disappointed he couldnt include 10,000 cars in the game ?!! h couldnt create realistic damage ?!! human AI ?!! LOL kazunori yamauchi is always disappointed after each GT release, he is a perfectionist guy, of course he is disappointed....but what this has to do with bad management ?!!

Ahhh maybe now I understand you !!! if yamauchi wasent a perfectionist ambitious guy, than he would just have released GT5 with only upscaled standard GT4 1080p cars in 2007, this would cost him little money and he would sell tons of copies and make a lot of money, but the most important thing : guys like you wont call him a bad manager ! he achieved his goals with a tiny budget ! 800 standard upscaled cars in glorious 1080p ps3 quality ! in little time ! he would be considered a great manager !!!


so when a guy (game designer) is too ambitious, perfectionist, he achieves always a tiny portion of what he planned, and he always delay his games...but he creates always one of the best games in the market...than he is called a bad manager !!!

so be it LOL !!! Famito ueda ! kazunori yamauchi ! hideo kojima ! shigeru myamoto ! yu suzuki !...poor bad managers...


you want the truth ? if this is your definition of bad management, than I like those ambitious perfectionist bad managers, and hate those boring good managers (EA everyone ? Activision ? each year one game, great resource management !)

 

[analog]

so when a guy (game designer) is too ambitious, perfectionist, he achieves always a tiny portion of what he planned, and he always delay his games...but he creates always one of the best games in the market...than he is called a bad manager !!!

you want the truth ? if this is your definition of bad management, than I like those ambitious perfectionist bad managers, and hate those boring good managers (EA everyone ? Activision ? each year one game, great resource management !)

Let me get this straight, first of you write a long post stating supposed facts and when people start to question it you now reply with yet another opinion on this whole situation.
Nothing wrong with that ofcourse, but your initial approach seemed like an attempt to clarify this whole issue and the reasons for it by supplying supposedly cold facts ( which ofcourse turned out to be just as much an assumption as the rest of this thread ).

To compare a game like GT with a long lifespan with most EA titles which are supposed to be replaced each year is like comparing apples and oranges.
And what constitutes a good manager is also according to your personal logic entirely subjective.
What has being perfectionistic have to do with being a good manager, I always assumed to be a good manager you'd have to be a realist foremost.

Not saying Kaz is a bad manager by the way ( if he planned this whole two-tier system from the start it's just a decision we might agree with or not ) but the fact his vision of a game turned out to be the one we embraced all these years has more to with his artistic skills and passion for this game and its content than being a good manager or having enormous ambition.
If the first GT would have flopped his ambition might be totally different than it is now but maybe not the artistic vision ( sure more limited than the possibilties given to him by the enormous succes of this franchise ).

Again welcome to this discussion as just one of the many posters who have an opinion they wish to share but please don't claim to know the truth.
It's just your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[DoctorFouad]

@ analog :
you are talking about this post ?

Why not? Hire more car modelers, make more cars. How is that not how it works?
"But you have to realize it's not as simple as "hire more people, make more cars.""


It amuses me that people sometimes have unbelievable expectations, they forgot we are humans, not perfect, and we live on a world with limited resources.

lol @ hire more people ! its simple !

lol, if we accept this reasoning, than GT5 must have not only 1000 premium cars, but 10,000 premium cars, or why not 50,000 ? or even modelling every car on earth since the invention of cars ! just hire more people !

there is a clear irony here, and something smells wrong with this statement :

1/ YES it is a question of costs, of available resources to polyphony digital, YES lets face it, Polyphony digital doesent have illimited resources as some people like to think so. the game already costs 60-80 million$ putting it as the most expansive video game ever created with 6 years of development time ! No game before GT5 ever took all those resources. so hiring more people will simply be problematic to polyphony from a financial point of view. they already got 140 staff paid monthly for 6 years and they didnt get yet a penny of benefice from GT5 sales, the game will ship 3d november 2010 (yes with GT5 rologue they gained a lot of money, but that allowed tem to work another 3 years on the game or else they cannot survive 6 years of development time, paying monthly 140 staff mwithout a copy of a game sold to market!)

2/ Some people have simply no idea of how it is difficult to hire new staff in a company, especially a software company, even more a video game development company, even more finding talented modellers staff for a video game development company developing a racing video game. Polyphony is in japan, and we have to believe it or not but not every japanese searching a job in japan is a talented car modeller, yes believe it or not !

3/ outsourcing modelling of cars. Already (I think seismica thanks) have answered this question : strict quality control and efficiency issues! YES polyphony could outsource car modelling, but than it is difficult for them to be sure that all cars are equally well modelled (different quality cars or even circuits is a problem in forza3). They could verify that each modeller used 500,000 polygons for each car, but they cant control if those external modellers are using those polygons efficiently. Albeit they could control their internal staff.

Add to this the problem of efficiency : imagine polyphony outsourced the modelling of 200 cars and they were doing another 200 cars at home. Now imagine they didnt order external modellers to model accurately the car's engines and bottom of cars, because they didnt think they are gonna need them later on to achieve a realistic damage system or that they didnt know that they are gonna allaw cars to flip upside down. But than after a couple years of development time, polyphony decided they are gonna need modelling of car engines + bottom of cars which actually happened, because I dont think GT5 prologue cars had engines and their bottoms modelled). What they are gonna do now ?!! return the models to the external company so they redo them ?!! this would cost them more money and more wasted time to negociate this shift with the external company. But the fact that they have only internal odellers, it was easy for them to improve the models of the cars without wasting too much time.

4/ I really wanna see any other video game company which achieved modelling 200 cars, with 500,000 polygons each. NO COMPANY EVER did that ! it is a first in our industry, we must really be happy about it.

5/ Also people must realize that to develop GT5,polyphony must not only medel cars, believe it or not but there are other resource eating activities, they have to model also tracks, human models, items...they must also include sound, work the physics engine, AI, gameplay, menus, create demos, trailers,...and put everything together...modelling cars is only a portion of their budget.


In short, we live in a world of limited resources, polyphony digital achieved in 6 years of development time with an 80 million $ budget : 200 future proof most detailed video game cars ever created ! with the most detailed 70 tracks ever created ! and one of the best gameplay physics ever created !...all of this is no other company ever achieved before. And yet people are blaming polyphony for not modelling 1000 premium cars ?!!!! this is craziness...

I stick with every word i wrote, call it : personal opinion, assumption, cold facts, facts, theory, arguments, logic, common sense...whatever you want to call it. it doesent matter, the purpose of my post was very clear :

show that a lot of people underestimate the difficulty of modeling highly detailed cars a la premium cars in GT5, they think it is as simple as : hire more car modelers ! those people are blaming polyphony digital for not achieving more than 200 premium cars in GT5 ! instead of praising the incredible hard work polyphony digital did to model the 200 most highly detailed and accurate car models ever included in a video game, setting a new standard for racing video games.

I understand people are disappointed that polyphony digital mislead them into thinking GT5 would have 1000 premium cars building huge unrealistic expectations, only to find out later on that just 200 cars would be premium, the other 800 are standard upscaled cars. That was a clear marketing mistake, polyphony and other developers and publishers should learn from this in the future.

but some of those disappointed people are blowing this marketing issue out of its real proportion, inventing far fetched improbable theories blaming polyphony digital of bad management of resources without any tangible proof.


What i did in my previous posts is providing valid strong arguments dismissing those improbable negative theories and showing that in the opposit the management of GT5 was instead brilliant and very balanced, every aspect of the game was hugely improved from last GT games (from the physics, to the AI, to graphics, to more features...).

I prefer getting a revolutionary GT5 in november 2010 with 200 premium cars + damage + weather effects, day/night cycles, a lot of tracks, a lot of new features, better AI, better physics...etc instead of getting a GT4 HD edition in 2007, or a less revolutionary, less feature complete and less polished GT5 game in 2008-2009.


so have a negative attitude and blame polyphony digital as you like, in my case (and i am sure the case of a lot of GT fans) i prefer a positive attitude, giving the merited credit to polyphony and kazunori yamauchi for taking their time to create one of the most revolutionary and feature complete racing video game in history.

Thanks polyphony digital, thanks kazunori yamauchi !

 

[Devedander]

LOL so after your false arguments about how GT5 was badly managed because of only 200 premium cars (its your opinion I respect it but there is more evidence suggesting instead that the ambitious GT5 project was brilliantly managed), now you are falsifying evidence ?!! kazunori yamauchi disappointed he couldnt make all cars premium ?!!

Yes. He said so pretty much straight out in an interview and has alluded to it many times in many ways.

You don't know what you are talking about and you are making yourself an even bigger fool than necessary by not realizing it while you call others out for being wrong when really it's you.

So yea... you are wrong there, the rest of your post is wrong becaue it's all based on your incorrect assumption here (that is hilarious incorrect).

As for wanting the truth... to quote a famous movie, it's quite obvious "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

@ analog :
you are talking about this post ?





I stick with every word i wrote, call it : personal opinion, assumption, cold facts, facts, theory, arguments, logic, common sense...whatever you want to call it. it doesent matter, the purpose of my post was very clear :

show that a lot of people underestimate the difficulty of modeling highly detailed cars a la premium cars in GT5, they think it is as simple as : hire more car modelers !

No your point was clearly to tell people their assumptions on game development were wrong by using your assumptions as fact to prove them wrong.

In reality your opinions are not any more likely than anyone elses (and by virtue of being based on ideas and hopes that aren't even logically sound, actually much more UNlikely than anyone elseses). People keep explaining to you how you are wrong, and you keep putting for arguments that are based more and more on your assumptions being true as a foundation, ignoring how you keep getting picked apart.

You've popped in here with a bunch of beliefs and ideas and (obviously) very lilttle actual knowledge of what's been going on in the GT world and then have been spouting off like everyone else was born yesterday and you know everything - which from your statments it appears couldn't be further from the truth.

That's what's happening and you seem to be the only one unclear on it.

 

[analog]

so have a negative attitude and blame polyphony digital as you like, in my case (and i am sure the case of a lot of GT fans) i prefer a positive attitude, giving the merited credit to polyphony and kazunori yamauchi for taking their time to create one of the most revolutionary and feature complete racing video game in history.

Thanks polyphony digital, thanks kazunori yamauchi !

Thanks for making clear your intention for all to see, nothing to do with a positive attitude but simply a fan-letter in defence of any decision PD makes.
Just to be clear, I'm a long time fan myself from the start but I'm not blindly defending anything they do simply to contribute to a "positive attitude" or atmosphere.
If I'm being critical it's not because I don't care for this game, far from it, if I couldn't care less why bother being critical ( and this is actually the very first issue which I'm seriously critical about, or at least have my doubts about ).
Hopefully forums like these supply feedback ( positive and negative ) to PD to keep the things we like and improve the things we dislike, if we all simply applauded every single thing they did and showed our eternal gratitude regardless this feedback would be pretty worthless wouldn't it?
If that sounds "ungrateful" well than so be it, I will thank them for their hard work in my own way, simply by paying money for GT5.
My nose remains the same colour it has right now, doesn't mean I have no respect.

 

[Devedander]

Thanks for making clear your intention for all to see, nothing to do with a positive attitude but simply a fan-letter in defence of any decision PD makes.
Just to be clear, I'm a long time fan myself from the start but I'm not blindly defending anything they do simply to contribute to a "positive attitude" or atmosphere.
If I'm being critical it's not because I don't care for this game, far from it, if I couldn't care less why bother being critical ( and this is actually the very first issue which I'm seriously critical about, or at least have my doubts about ).
Hopefully forums like these supply feedback ( positive and negative ) to PD to keep the things we like and improve the things we dislike, if we all simply applauded every single thing they did and showed our eternal gratitude regardless this feedback would be pretty worthless wouldn't it?
If that sounds "ungrateful" well than so be it, I will thank them for their hard work in my own way, simply by paying money for GT5.
My nose remains the same colour it has right now, doesn't mean I have no respect.

I think many people don't understand that the truest fans are the ones who care enough to get upset and dissapointed.

I like being happy and content just as much as the next guy. I don't choose to be disapointed for fun... if I am voicing opinion on something negative it's because I am so interested in GT5 that these shortfalls and letdowns are of legitimate concern to me and I am not just some casual fan of car games with superficial interests that can be bandaged up with "well it's not so bad" or "it could be worse".

 

[Goshin2568]

I understand people are disappointed that polyphony digital mislead them into thinking GT5 would have 1000 premium cars building huge unrealistic expectations, only to find out later on that just 200 cars would be premium, the other 800 are standard upscaled cars. That was a clear marketing mistake, polyphony and other developers and publishers should learn from this in the future.

You are just contradicting yourself there. So thinking there would be 1000 premiums, just like PD told (or inferred or whatever) us is a "huge unrealistic expectation"???
You can't say that something PD made us believe is true is somehow supposed to be doubted. If a game developer tells me something, I am naturally inclined to believe it. Now, it might have been a huge unrealistic expectation for them to have, but for the fans, you can't blame us for believing something that seemed so obvious. You are blaming them and defending them in the same sentence about the same issue. Dosen't work that way.

but some of those disappointed people are blowing this marketing issue out of its real proportion, inventing far fetched improbable theories blaming polyphony digital of bad management of resources without any tangible proof.

Two quotes.

"That was a clear marketing mistake, polyphony and other developers and publishers should learn from this in the future"

AND

"blowing this marketing issue out of its real proportion, inventing far fetched improbable theories blaming polyphony digital of bad management of resources"

??? You can't say something was PD's fault, but not KY...
KY is PD. 'PD made a big mistake, but that in no way changes the fact that KAz is a GREAT manager'.
Such fanboyism...

What i did in my previous posts is providing valid strong arguments dismissing those improbable negative theories and showing that in the opposit the management of GT5 was instead brilliant and very balanced, every aspect of the game was hugely improved from last GT games (from the physics, to the AI, to graphics, to more features...).

Ok, for me, I really don't think anyone can make a judgement call. Does anyone else have some secret video footage showing every day of PD working on GT5. No one knows how good of a manger he is. Have you worked for him? Do you know someone who has that told you about his managing skills? For all we know, some no-name assistant decided what to focus on. We just don't know!

I prefer getting a revolutionary GT5 in november 2010 with 200 premium cars + damage + weather effects, day/night cycles, a lot of tracks, a lot of new features, better AI, better physics...etc instead of getting a GT4 HD edition in 2007, or a less revolutionary, less feature complete and less polished GT5 game in 2008-2009.


so have a negative attitude and blame polyphony digital as you like, in my case (and i am sure the case of a lot of GT fans) i prefer a positive attitude, giving the merited credit to polyphony and kazunori yamauchi for taking their time to create one of the most revolutionary and feature complete racing video game in history.

By that reasoning would you rather wait 5 more years to get all premiums?
What you are really saying is 'Whatever PD chose to do was the right thing. I wouldn't have it any other way.'

 

[Tornado]

Answer me this.

4*5-10+?=

If you solved that equation I will gladly agree that all this speculation is not far fetched. Oh wait, you don't have all the numbers! Now you could start to speculate on what that number will be, you could take an 'educated guess' on what that number might be based on the other numbers and get lucky, but the chances are because you don't know the full equation, your going to be pulling the number out of your ass as you so eloquently put it.

You don't seem to understand what speculation actually is. In your example, we know that the numbers 4, 5 and 10 are true, and we know that 4 is multiplied by 5 and then subtracted by 10. And we have an idea at this point what it will all equal. No, we don't know what the final answer will be for sure, and no, we don't know what all of the numbers are. That is why it is speculation and not definitive proof.
But since we are basing the speculation on things we know, we aren't pulling things out of our ass, and we aren't just making up far fetched ideas.

 

[hellseek]

I'm not too sure why everyone is complaining about stuff they have not seen first hand yet. This is ridiculous.

 

[yogaflame]

By the way for the premium cars will it be more than 200 or almost 200 which means less than or just exactly 200?

 

[McLaren]

By the way for the premium cars will it be more than 200 or almost 200 which means less than or just exactly 200?

Didn't you already ask this question....