Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[shirakawaa]

You seem to be missing the point a bit. Perhaps because you don't understand the part played by the 3d mesh in all of this. Low res textures would not affect edge definition in any way shape or form.

It's here that you're wrong.
In past GT games, textures are edges in many cases and spots!
That was a "shortcut" to reduce the number of polygons.

 

[risuku13]

http://www.easy-upload.net/fichiers/Tsukuba_Circuit5.20101120203814.jpg

Hmmm... Now it gets more interesting. Considering these are GT4 models, upscaled to GT5 res, that we are talking about. It does look quite harsh. Perhaps on normal view it is rather negligible compared when zoomed in.

Now I feel like all these Standard cars are just "padding" or fillers in the game. On the other hand, it is still good that we can still drive these rather than just 200 Premium cars. Although, yeah, what it looks like right now is that PD made those Standard cars "as is" with (more or less) no extra handling (treatment) whatsoever. Jaggies and low res galore.

 

[Rodpunisher]

Hmmm... Now it gets more interesting. Considering these are GT4 models, upscaled to GT5 res, that we are talking about. It does look quite harsh. Perhaps on normal view it is rather negligible compared when zoomed in.

Now I feel like all these Standard cars are just "padding" or fillers in the game. On the other hand, it is still good that we can still drive these rather than just 200 Premium cars. Although, yeah, what it looks like right now is that PD made those Standard cars "as is" with (more or less) no extra handling (treatment) whatsoever. Jaggies and low res galore.

Image speaks for itself. Does the Zonda look like a GT4 car?

A Hi-res pic can be seen here: http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/specialstageroute521.jpg

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

It's here that you're wrong.
In past GT games, textures are edges in many cases and spots!
That was a "shortcut" to reduce the number of polygons.

In some places, yes, okay. I'm thinking window frames, spoiler struts and wheel rims for example but wheel arches?? Seriously - no, just no. Wheels and arches used to be low-poly, fair enough they'd look octagonal rather than round but even with GT2 (can't find any pics but I'd go out on a limb and say GT1 as well) the wheel arches were not alphas.

GT2 screenshot...

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

And still, the extreme pixelation on that rear wing does exist. And we know that GT5 is running a hi-res engine. So where does it come from?

It must be from either the video conversion or the engine render. If it's from the engine render then we're in a world of pain because even the premium cars will look like that.

 

[the Interceptor]

It must be from either the video conversion or the engine render. If it's from the engine render then we're in a world of pain because even the premium cars will look like that.

But the other videos do not show this effect (the link is offline right now, but it says it will be back soon). Also, if this is a video conversion effect, it should be all over the video and not only at one specific edge of one specific car.

And the premium cars as such look fine, too.

 

[risuku13]

Image speaks for itself. Does the Zonda look like a GT4 car?

A Hi-res pic can be seen here: http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/specialstageroute521.jpg

Nice pic. It does not look like a GT4 car compared to the 206 earlier.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

But the other videos do not show this effect (the link is offline right now, but it says it will be back soon). Also, if this is a video conversion effect, it should be all over the video and not only at one specific edge of one specific car.

And the premium cars as such look fine, too.

I hear what you're saying and I have to admit I'm stuck for an explanation. I don't know enough about HD video generations and/or capture but I'm still leaning toward this as a more believable explanation. Part of that is I don't want to believe it looks this bad but the rational part says that it doesn't make sense for PD to release a sequel that looks worse (even in places) than the original did, 13 years and two console generations ago.

Logic is telling me there's an explanation for this that doesn't involve PD spending 5 years downgrading GT1

 

[Spagetti69]

Another aspect occurred to me regarding the standard models.

In the damage thread someone mentioned how certain manufacturers don't like there vehicles to be portrayed with damage. Fair enough.

What about base model damage? What I mean by this is how there cars are portrayed within game, regardless of damage.

It seems as though there a varying degrees of standard within that bracket too.The Veyron seeming to be a good example.

How will Lamborghini/Audi react to PD's interpretation of the Countach compared to there premium rivals?

How will Porsche look on the RUF models depicted? A marque PD are trying to woo.

How will all manufacturers feel when today's pride and joy may get brought into a situation where there car's look substandard to others in future games?

Have PD done some damage to future games?

Probably not, I'm just throwing out some topics to debate. Car manufacturers are paranoid about there image though, with various brands and marketing.

If GT5 is PD's portfolio for future work, how would you explain it to future brands you would like on board?

 

[the Interceptor]

I hear what you're saying and I have to admit I'm stuck for an explanation. I don't know enough about HD video generations and/or capture but I'm still leaning toward this as a more believable explanation. Part of that is I don't want to believe it looks this bad but the rational part says that it doesn't make sense for PD to release a sequel that looks worse (even in places) than the original did, 13 years and two console generations ago.

Logic is telling me there's an explanation for this that doesn't involve PD spending 5 years downgrading GT1

I understand as well as I agree, I wish there would be another explanation for this.

Right now I think this does exist, and it is a simple fault on PD's side, likely caused by lack of time. Since not all standard cars look like this, some were fine from the start, some had to be reworked. But since PD was forced again to release the game at some point (remember how often Kaz stated when they would be done when they actually weren't, so it's likely they're not done now), some cars didn't get overhauled.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Hmmm... Now it gets more interesting. Considering these are GT4 models, upscaled to GT5 res, that we are talking about. It does look quite harsh. Perhaps on normal view it is rather negligible compared when zoomed in.

Now I feel like all these Standard cars are just "padding" or fillers in the game. On the other hand, it is still good that we can still drive these rather than just 200 Premium cars. Although, yeah, what it looks like right now is that PD made those Standard cars "as is" with (more or less) no extra handling (treatment) whatsoever. Jaggies and low res galore.

Apparently and sadly so.

But they made it up to us, emphasizing the "filler" aspect as you put it, by not having any wheels for these 800 cars in the game.
Personally, I consider this, adding insult to injury and extremely dissapointing.

Sadly again the game has never been about anything but "200 realistic looking" cars, and I must admit they certainly are.

However it is almost impossible to see this installment of GT, (IMO) as nothing more than a "filler" version of GT6.

All things considered, I have to question the cost of this strategy, as too high and ultimately, a Big Blackeye on this installment.

Possibly, as has been brought up in this thread, this situation was unavoidable due to the Gen jump and accompanied tech. issues, resulting manpower requirements, etc., etc., etc.
If so, I wander at this point, if the "just give us the 200 premiums crowd" has been right, all along.

Sorry but there is no way I can reconcile waiting almost 6yrs, for 800 GT4 cars that don't even carry over the wheel change feature.

 

[fitftw]

Years from now, I imagine the hierarchy of GT will be this:

GT6
GT5
GT4
GT2
GT1
GT3

 

[Raitziger]

That miata pic looks so bad that i can imagine that 1st party quality control team would have something to say to PD.

 

[Luminis]

Years from now, I imagine the hierarchy of GT will be this:

GT6
GT5
GT4
GT2
GT1
GT3

What 'hierarchy'? If we're talking meta critic ratings, it's:
GT > GT3 > GT2 > GT4
Not counting Prologues and the PSP version.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

That miata pic looks so bad that i can imagine that 1st party quality control team would have something to say to PD.

5 years to produce the worst looking game ever seen on PS2 I think KY would have been on twitter looking for a job by now

 

[desperado]

5 years to produce the worst looking game ever seen on PS2 I think KY would have been on twitter looking for a job by now

when you are taking photos in race are you able to walk around freely? Maybe the car in view is not the player car but one further back, therefore what we are looking at is a lower LOD model?

 

[fitftw]

What 'hierarchy'? If we're talking meta critic ratings, it's:
GT > GT3 > GT2 > GT4
Not counting Prologues and the PSP version.

metacritic is not me, I have my own brain. GT1 is not better than GT4, are you fracking insane? Who would choose GT1 over GT4 right now? Someone who just wants to argue, that's who. GT3 is the worst GT in my opinion of them all. I don't care what metacritic says. In terms of content and how I felt when I played and grew through each GT, that's how I came up with my hierarchy. I'd rather play GT1 and 2 over GT3 and I think most people would too. I don't care about graphics as much as I care about the cars themselves. GT3 had so few cars.

 

[risuku13]

It seems that there are some variations in Standard cars. As stated earlier, some Standard cars look quite fine, like the Veyron and Zonda, while some look bad, like the 206 and Miata. Just a random thought, perhaps it would have been more effective if PD had another model category.

Basically:

??? - GT4-based models, little or no enhancements
Standard - "Real" standard cars like the Veyron
Premium - High poly, very detailed and all, GT6-ready



Or maybe they should put an "Ultimate" somewhere, but I guess it would sound like Windows.

 

[Naqluz]

Well one thing about the Standard cars is still bothering me.. I haven't actually seen how the Standard car reacts to the changing weather conditions, so do they have working wipers for example?

 

[Luminis]

Well one thing about the Standard cars is still bothering me.. I haven't actually seen how the Standard car reacts to the changing weather conditions, so do they have working wipers for example?

Since you're not behind the windshield... Does it matter? But I guess they won't. Didn't have them in GT4 either.

 

[Tornado]

If so, I wander at this point, if the "just give us the 200 premiums crowd" has been right, all along.

The problem with that idea is that GT5 doesn't really have the variety that GT1 and GT3 had. I agree with the concept, but I'm not sure if PD could have executed it properly.

I'd rather play GT1 and 2 over GT3 and I think most people would too.

Careful throwing that around. The only game I enjoy more than GT3 is GT2, with GT4 being quite far down the totem pole.

 

[-Cheezman-]

Well one thing about the Standard cars is still bothering me.. I haven't actually seen how the Standard car reacts to the changing weather conditions, so do they have working wipers for example?

The windshield wipers do not work on standard cars.

*Note that windshield wipers will only operate on premium model cars.

http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/news/d5312p2.html

 

[Naqluz]

Ah, thanks Cheezman.

Luminis, yeah it doesn't matter I was just curious. In replay mode they might've been a nice addition. Oh well..

 

[emponator]

Standard look just fine 95% of the time, when you're actually racing.
Bummer for photomode though, byt they can still be used as scenery there.

And that MX5 pic is surely a LOD glitch.

 

[Flatspotter]

You seem to be missing the point a bit. Perhaps because you don't understand the part played by the 3d mesh in all of this. Low res textures would not affect edge definition in any way shape or form. Pixelation on the wheel arches like the kind in the videos could only be caused by a really terrible 3d engine running at an unbelievably low resolution. By the looks of those videos maybe PS1 or below. Certainly not HD.

The reason why some of the GT4 cars have horrible jaggies around the wheel arches and windows (and the rear wing support of those LM) because instead of the 3D modeler modeling the wheel arches in 3D they used Alpha channels in the texture map to make it see through.

This means the arches aren't actually created in 3D but are done in the texture map, this was done to save polygons around the wheel arches so more details could be put into other parts of the car. This was a perfectly acceptable technique for the PS2 when your rendering out in SD but the very same models really don't stand up when you quadruple the resolution.

I am personally surprised that PD haven't updated these cars because all that would be required was a higher-res alpha map which I personally could bang out in about 2 hours per car.

Shame :\

BUT!... I'm still happy with GT5, I am sure we will get DLC with more premiums at some point down the line.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

The reason why some of the GT4 cars have horrible jaggies around the wheel arches and windows (and the rear wing support of those LM) because instead of the 3D modeler modeling the wheel arches in 3D they used Alpha channels in the texture map to make it see through.

This means the arches aren't actually created in 3D but are done in the texture map, this was done to save polygons around the wheel arches so more details could be put into other parts of the car. This was a perfectly acceptable technique for the PS2 when your rendering out in SD but the very same models really don't stand up when you quadruple the resolution.

I am personally surprised that PD haven't updated these cars because all that would be required was a higher-res alpha map which I personally could bang out in about 2 hours per car.

Shame :\

BUT!... I'm still happy with GT5, I am sure we will get DLC with more premiums at some point down the line.

You sound like you know what you're talking about so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt but I must admit that it surprises the hell out of when you say they were alpha-ing things like wheel arches as far on as GT4. I agree with you, tho. Would take me maybe 20 mins, per car, (30mins absolute max) to redo those UV's in a decent resolution.

I'm back to wondering what in the hell PD have been doing for the last half decade. This game is shaping up to be a laughing stock.

One other thing, whilst we're on the subject have another look at this shot

I never noticed it before on account of my eyes were all over those sub-PS1 quality bitmaps but take a look at the texture repeat on the track. Looks like some of the tracks might be straight ports of gt4 assets as well?

 

[Peter]

The pictures wit hthe standard cars at night looked low quality and blurry. Not only did the standards look bad, but the premiums didn't look any better either. The Lexus LFA and Zonda R just blended in.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

The problem with that idea is that GT5 doesn't really have the variety that GT1 and GT3 had. I agree with the concept, but I'm not sure if PD could have executed it properly.

800 GT4 cars less the wheel change option is definitely filler, not variety.

Careful throwing that around. The only game I enjoy more than GT3 is GT2, with GT4 being quite far down the totem pole.

GT4 trumps all the others by a long shot, followed by GT3, and its a toss up on next between 1 and 2. 👍

 

[Flatspotter]

One other thing, whilst we're on the subject have another look at this shot

I never noticed it before on account of my eyes were all over those sub-PS1 quality bitmaps but take a look at the texture repeat on the track. Looks like some of the tracks might be straight ports of gt4 assets as well?

Indeed I can confirm that a large number of GT4 cars still used Alpha maps for things, It really rather depended on the modeler who built the car and where he decided to use the polys, this is why some cars have it and some cars don't. Simply because one modeler chose to do it that way... and the other guy who was working on a different car chose not to.

I noticed the track repeating as well when I looked at that pic.

Interestingly I believe that pic was "screen capped" from a high res video capture rather then an actual Photo-Mode output. So maybe its an artifact of the motion blur effect used when your actually watching the replay rather then the more high-tech motion blur when used in photo mode.

If it is the mo-blur from in-game then I doubt you would notice anything when watching it.

 

[gtracedriver]

Some staindard look bad especially in close-ups but it is fine while playing and looking at in replay as long there is no zoom. But sadly some gfx glitches in GT5 is main problem as far looks are concerned. It distract otherwise a photo realistic game