YSSMAN is crazy.

[McLaren]

I do think that you're neglecting the fact that GM has owned Opel/Vauxhall and Holden for longer than Toyotas have been on sale in the United States. Furthermore, GM is a global company, and while these companies had in fact operated under independent umbrellas up until a few years ago, you do have to admit that it makes sense to pool your resources and let the respective areas do what they do best...

The Americans have to a large extent forgotten how to build and engineer proper vehicles, I'll give you that. But, clearly, Ford and GM have reversed that greatly by working with their various global arms, consolidating them into a single company... As it should be! Let the Americans do the engines and transmissions, let the Germans get the proper chassis tune right, let the Asians work on the refinement. It all makes for a better car in the end.

Even you have to admit that GM (and Ford) are far better off now by comparison to even five years ago... They are almost completely different companies.



Brand loyalty is a good thing, I'm sorry you don't feel that way. I was raised in a GM household, a Chevrolet family, and yet I drive Volkswagens because I prefer their ride/handling bias. But even then, I catch a lot of flak because they're horrible cars too.

I guess its bad to be proud of your country's cars and trucks. Especially when your State's entire livelihood revolves around it. I've had family that has worked in the automotive industry for more than four decades, for all three of the big companies, so I'm attached. I can't help it that its the culture of Michigan that has made me so...

Agh...no.
[/Damon Waynes]

Let the Germans develop the engines & transmissions as well, thank you.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Agh...no.
[/Damon Waynes]

Let the Germans develop the engines & transmissions as well, thank you.

German engines lack flare on GMs side of the fence, American engines will do fine by me. The Australian V6 is good too. Germans can do transmissions I suppose though 💡

 

[JCE]

Lack flair? You obviously forgot that Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and Porsche exsist.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Lack flair? You obviously forgot that Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and Porsche exsist.

I said on GM's side of the fence, unfortunately GM don't own any of those companies. And the Chevy small block is a formidable engine in its own right.

 

[YSSMAN]

Agh...no.
[/Damon Waynes]

Let the Germans develop the engines & transmissions as well, thank you.

They can have the I4s, we'll co-develop the V6s, but Americans get to do the V8s no matter what. As for transmissions, BMW seems to like what we Americans have done, they use our stuff in most of their vehicles these days. I think only the 7 gets away with the ZF box... All of the rest are shared with the CTS and the like... Thats BMW's dirty little secret that they'd like to keep private.

 

[BayConRong]

Lack flair? You obviously forgot that Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and Porsche exsist.

Ass engined nazi sled! AENS. I like green ones the best.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

Does the Impala even have cushions in the back? The seats feel like concrete with some fabric stretched over them. And the interior is hideous. Outside... good car. Inside...baaad car.

 

[Azuremen]

OK, your analogy of GM is just horrible logic. And I didn't mean it to come across as insulting you about not knowing what a mechanic is so I'm sorry. And as much as you don't want to believe it they are GM's engineers, there are Americans, Australians and Europeans spread right throughout all GM's brands.

No, I thought all of GM's engineers were from the US And I don't recall using an analogy for anything. At all. YSSMAN did, to a degree. I commented on it.

I am fully aware of globalization. I am also aware GM has changed quite a bit in the past few years because of Lutz realizing they made complete crap in the US and sourcing crap from over-seas.

I said on GM's side of the fence, unfortunately GM don't own any of those companies. And the Chevy small block is a formidable engine in its own right.

GM needs to drop pushrods. They really need to. Its ancient technology, that aside from weight, is completely outdone by DOHC.

YSSMAN, brand loyalty is great to a degree, but I feel it has to be earned. The Sky (the Solstice is hideous IMO) has helped them a bit. But the day I buy a Cadillac is the day Jesus walks on earth again.

 

[McLaren]

German engines lack flare on GMs side of the fence, American engines will do fine by me. The Australian V6 is good too. Germans can do transmissions I suppose though 💡

Excuse me? Even on US soil, the Inline-6 & Flat-6 are true performance engines, far better than the V8 GM continues to produce.

Like I said, leave the engines & transmissions to the Germans. Hell, even let Ferrari develop the transmission at least.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

GM needs to drop pushrods. They really need to. Its ancient technology, that aside from weight, is completely outdone by DOHC.

Really, ancient? Did you know the first overhead cam engine was made in the late 19th century? That's right, look up automotive superlatives on wiki and find where it lists the firsts for engines. And last time I checked, the Chev small block has a super power curve, as opposed to Ford's (in Australia this is) Boss engine that uses DOHC and is peaky and has not enough low down torque. To be honest, I am biased towards neither pushrod or OHC, the better engine is the better engine.

Originally posted by *McLaren*Excuse me? Even on US soil, the Inline-6 & Flat-6 are true performance engines, far better than the V8 GM continues to produce.

Like I said, leave the engines & transmissions to the Germans. Hell, even let Ferrari develop the transmission at least.

Funny, I didn't know GM used flat 6s and inline 6s. That post means that GM don't have any German engines that really rock. It doesn't mean that there are no German engines sold in America that are cool, certainly not.

And finally, is it just me or does the LS7, LS3 and LS9 beat just about everything in their respective categories? Sixes need turbos to make that power, but they can/do offer better handling. V8s can still handle great though as is shown by the Corvette. But keep in mind, turbo engines wear quicker normally because they are under more stress.

 

[Jim Prower]

Excuse me? Even on US soil, the Inline-6 & Flat-6 are true performance engines, far better than the V8 GM continues to produce.

Like I said, leave the engines & transmissions to the Germans. Hell, even let Ferrari develop the transmission at least.

Read that again: he said "GM's side of the fence."

That means GM's German engines.

Not Porsche's. Not BMW's.

((By the way, did you notice how the I6 is a dying breed? the only manufacturer still making them in any quantity is BMW. The Supra is dead and the GT-R switched to a V6. Packaging beats torque curves these days.))

EDIT: Damnit. Treed.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

((By the way, did you notice how the I6 is a dying breed? the only manufacturer still making them in any quantity is BMW. The Supra is dead and the GT-R switched to a V6. Packaging beats torque curves these days.))

EDIT: Damnit. Treed.

Doesn't a V6 generally make more torque and inline 6s get a better power curve/more power? V6s can still get a damned good power and torque curve though.

 

[Jim Prower]

Doesn't a V6 generally make more torque and inline 6s get a better power curve/more power? V6s can still get a damned good power and torque curve though.

I always had the impression that an I6 would make more torque, and smoother at that, than a similarly sized and tuned V6.

 

[Joey D]

Don't you mean let the Euros get the style right, the Americans get the engines right and the Australians do the chassis engineering right?

I don't want an Australian company touching the chassis if the GTO is anything to go by. You guys can just make silly looking car/truck things that are oddly cool in some aspects.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

You didn't like the GTO? That's wierd, that was a perfect drift car but could do grip racing really well too. And I gotta ask, how do you mean "silly looking"- matter of taste again I suppose. Plus the Zeta is designed by us, as is the Camaro...........Point is, we know what we're doing so just rest your head and we'll come out with a brilliant car for you.

Edit: Jim Prower, I was once told (not by a real car buff, but he sounded like he heard it from somewhere) that the inline 6 made better power and was generally speaking a smoother engine, but the V6 could make better torque, and has better packaging like you said. Plus I could swear the Vee is more fuel efficient, otherwise the Duratec would be the engine getting dropped, not the Inline 6 used in Falcons. I'm going to go and look for a website telling the advantages/disadvantages of a Vee versus an Inline.

 

[Joey D]

You didn't like the GTO? That's wierd, that was a perfect drift car but could do grip racing really well too.

No I hated the GTO, I realise it was a sports car but the suspension on it was so over done it was ridiculous. I know it was designed to take the rough roads of Australia or something but made for a rather uninspiring drive here. Plus it had this big issue of wanting to swap ends in a corner. A guy in high school that I sort of hung around with had a red one with a 5.7 in it and it didn't do it for me.

And I gotta ask, how do you mean "silly looking"- matter of taste again I suppose.

This is silly looking:

Plus the Zeta is designed by us, as is the Camaro...........Point is, we know what we're doing so just rest your head and we'll come out with a brilliant car for you.

To be honest I'm not holding out a ton of hope for the Camaro. I hope I am wrong because GM needs a huge win on this but I just can't get excited.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I guess when you grow up with these things, and live on these goat tracks known as roads they all seem the norm. The SS Commdore has been cited as having as much road holding capablilty almost as a WRX. They are the 2 bang-for-buck contenders here, Zeta rocks!

Engine configuration- According to how stuff works all 3 configurations (bocer engine now included) built to the exact same specs (same displacement, same no. of valves, etc) will perform the same. It's all in the packaging and how you need to make them that effects weight and the such that's the big difference.

 

[JCE]

I find it funny that the Americans are turning this into an Aussie versus Amerca war.

I'm just a German fly on a wall here.

 

[TopHat]

GM needs to drop pushrods. They really need to. Its ancient technology, that aside from weight, is completely outdone by DOHC.

I thought OHC was older than OHV..... OHV wasn't even popularized until the 50's. It's not like they're still using L-Heads and Straight-8's!


EDIT:

Americans do big VEEE-AYTS better. The only real "Australian" engines remaining are Fords I-6s and V8s. BOSS 290 FTW!

 

[Jim Prower]

We want the Boss, believe me. The 4.6 Mod's weak compared to those GM motors...

 

[Eric.]

I'm pretty bummed that Chevy isn't getting a Zeta in the U.S, and If I were a Chevy dealer, I'd order some G8s, import some Middle-East-market Lumina grilles, stick on some Impala SS badges from the crash part bin, and call it a day. Hell, with the G8 ST, I'd call up Original Parts Group for a full compliment of '70 El Camino SS badges.

 

[Azuremen]

Really, ancient? Did you know the first overhead cam engine was made in the late 19th century? That's right, look up automotive superlatives on wiki and find where it lists the firsts for engines. And last time I checked, the Chev small block has a super power curve, as opposed to Ford's (in Australia this is) Boss engine that uses DOHC and is peaky and has not enough low down torque. To be honest, I am biased towards neither pushrod or OHC, the better engine is the better engine.

Its ancient in that its basically been proven to be inefficient in the sense that you can generate better power and torque from a DOHC engine than a similar volume pushrod engine. 50 years ago when people didn't car about gas and more displacement was easier because, once again, American engineers didn't want to do an actual engineering; its much easier to just up the displacement than build components to handle higher RPMs.

The subject was beat to death in this thread.

So I am just picking the better engine. I also like my cars to weigh about 2000 pounds. And to make more than 100 HP per liter. Without a turbo, in general.

 

[TopHat]

So I am just picking the better engine. I also like my cars to weigh about 2000 pounds. And to make more than 100 HP per liter. Without a turbo, in general.

I guess you're stuck driving early MR-2's your entire life...

 

[Azuremen]

I guess you're stuck driving early MR-2's your entire life...

Lotus Elise/Exige is the next big thing

 

[Tornado]

The subject was beat to death in this thread.

Then don't bring it up. We all know that Americans are so ass-backward when it comes to engine design, and how the Japanese, Germans and etc. are better in every regard. You are not going to sway anyone, because the fact of the matter is that certain engines are better for certian applications. DOHC isn't a godsend in every case, especially in situations where any gain is offset by the disadvantages (the Mustang, for example).

 

[McLaren]

Funny, I didn't know GM used flat 6s and inline 6s. That post means that GM don't have any German engines that really rock. It doesn't mean that there are no German engines sold in America that are cool, certainly not.

I apologize then. When you said, "On the GM's side of the fence", I thought you were referring to German engines in America.

And finally, is it just me or does the LS7, LS3 and LS9 beat just about everything in their respective categories? Sixes need turbos to make that power, but they can/do offer better handling. V8s can still handle great though as is shown by the Corvette. But keep in mind, turbo engines wear quicker normally because they are under more stress.

Isn't it funny that what you just said isn't actually true?

 

[Azuremen]

Then don't bring it up. We all know that Americans are so ass-backward when it comes to engine design, and how the Japanese, Germans and etc. are better in every regard. You are not going to sway anyone, because the fact of the matter is that certain engines are better for certian applications. DOHC isn't a godsend in every case, especially in situations where any gain is offset by the disadvantages (the Mustang, for example).

You mean the other disadvantage the Mustang has it goes hand in hand with, the Live Rear Axle?

No, they aren't. Give me a situation where a push rod would be better than a DOHC?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

No, they aren't. Give me a situation where a push rod would be better than a DOHC?

The Corvette, where GM/Chevy is competing mainly on price

 

[Azuremen]

The Corvette, where GM/Chevy is competing mainly on price

You mean by re-using the same basic design for an engine they have had for 50 years? Saves on engineering costs I guess.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I don't really see the benefits of them going OHC with the Corvette. The reliability would probably be worse. Efficiency could be better, but this isn't exactly a family sedan.