The real racing simulator

In my opinion, the next GT game should focus more on racing and all that comes with It. Don't try putting a thousend card in the game. I will be happy with just 300 If that means we can turn any car from stock to full blown race car and everything in between.

Buying a car and then actually seeing the car stripped with roll cage after full weight reduction is something I have been waiting for a long time. More freedom when it comes to aerodynamics, tire sizes that effect handling and more freedom with the suspension settings.

More open wheel racing would be nice to. We now have the formule gt but they look so dated. Premium newer version would be a nice addition. Also some lower classes ( why stop at go carts) like maybe gt versions of F3?

I'd like to see engine failures aswell. It would really help with the difficulty. Gt series have always been to easy so I'm not expection a big improvement I A.I. but making you manage you car more could be a solution to the A.I. problem. Want to race your 1000hp street car full throttle in races longer than 3 laps? Be ready to lower the rev limiter when your engine starts getting hot!

All the updates in 5 have made the game so much better but all I'm missing now is a good carreer mode. Racing the I.A. in gt feels so lifeless at the moment and I think that with the ability to really build a car ( not just buying all the fast parts) will make carreer mode so much better.

They got the driving down, no focus on the racing

It'll still be a simcade until you can't change tires and remove all the magic grip assists (srf, stability part of abs)

edit: "can't".

MK2golflover

I'd like to see engine failures aswell. It would really help with the difficulty. Gt series have always been to easy so I'm not expection a big improvement I A.I. but making you manage you car more could be a solution to the A.I. problem. Want to race your 1000hp street car full throttle in races longer than 3 laps? Be ready to lower the rev limiter when your engine starts getting hot!

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If the engine failures are a direct result of something the player did, I'm fine with this. The games need to depict more performance damage in general. In Forza, for example, when I was first starting to drive manual I damaged my trannies several times. I'd take a classic muscle car around Nordschleife, forgetting to upgrade their trannies and as a result spent too much time at the red line and tore up my tranny.

At first I thought you wanted random mechanical failures like in real-world F1, but I oppose that because it would be a jerk move. It sucks in real life but there's nothing you can do about it except curse God, but developers don't have to render a giant middle finger for the player like that. The player should face challenges he can overcome, but he can't do anything about a random mechanical failure. That would be PD deciding to randomly ruin someone's race just for the sake of being pricks.

Also the thing with random mechanical failures is that they're never truly random in a videogame, they would still be programmed. That's why they're a bad idea.

SimonK

Also the thing with random mechanical failures is that they're never truly random in a videogame, they would still be programmed. That's why they're a bad idea.

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It's easy to give them realistic distributions using quasi random methods. They won't be programmed or scripted. The hardest part would be determining the probability of failure for a certain part.

And rather than random failures, I'd rather have failures from stress or abuse.

avens

It'll still be a simcade until you can't change tires and remove all the magic grip assists (srf, stability part of abs)

edit: "can't".

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???? What real cars forbid you from changing tires. Also, SRF can already be turned off. There is nothing more to do there.

Exorcet

???? What real cars forbid you from changing tires. Also, SRF can already be turned off. There is nothing more to do there.

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Problem with changing tire compound in games is that they destroy all driving characteristic of cars, same with some assists turned on by default.
Those are really exagerated in GT5 because of Racing tires (especially RS, glue tires that are waaaay above F1 grip), SRF (increases grip out of nowhere particularly in fast corners. Does not exist in real life) and the documented "magic stability" portion of ABS that cannot be disabled separately.

With that said, all the effort that PD does into making a car unique and realistic is worthless. Most probably 0.1% played the "simulator mode" of GT5, which means using comfort soft or comfort meds (a great example is the appropriate tire for f1 cars in gt5 is comfort soft, not sports even less so racing softs) + no assists, including ABS off, and a racing wheel (there are more hidden assists with the gamepad and are very noticeable).


edit: Point is if the GT series ever has a "real racing simulator" mode it has to basically copypaste iracing, and that includes the 2 said things (assists hinder you there and can't change compound) and others (safety points to get rid of nfs players in clean racing, no performance tuning [same cars except setup. Can't add hp for instance] and so on).

I'm not for making that the default settings, since it is a console game after all and not a sim (mass market), but it's about time to have a simulator and/or racing mode. You know, the whole point of the GT series is trying cars out but in GT5 almost no one does (a stock impreza with 1000hp, RS tires and defying the laws of physics isn't).

You're right about the stability part of SRF, but I don't follow the rest. SRF can be turned off, so as far as realism goes it's a non issue. Removing tuning won't do anything but take content from the game it certainly won't add to realism. A 1000 hp Impreza on slick tires makes perfect sense to me. Nothing unrealistic there.

Also, comfort softs aren't "simulation mode". They're as messed up as the rest of the tires. We don't need to be limited to one set of tires, we need a better tire model. You could put F1 rubber on a road car if you wanted to. It would be a bad idea, but you could do it. GT6 should simulate that. Do what you want, but suffer the consequences. Also of course, offer racing tires that are appropriate for hyper tuned road cars.

Exorcet

It's easy to give them realistic distributions using quasi random methods. They won't be programmed or scripted. The hardest part would be determining the probability of failure for a certain part.

And rather than random failures, I'd rather have failures from stress or abuse

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No matter how well you program the randomness they're still programmed to appear. In real life there is nothing programmed to make an alternator failure, in a game it would have to be programmed, no matter how random it was made.

But yes your second point is what I agree with, performance related failures, not "random".

Exorcet

You're right about the stability part of SRF, but I don't follow the rest. SRF can be turned off, so as far as realism goes it's a non issue. Removing tuning won't do anything but take content from the game it certainly won't add to realism. A 1000 hp Impreza on slick tires makes perfect sense to me. Nothing unrealistic there.

Also, comfort softs aren't "simulation mode". They're as messed up as the rest of the tires. We don't need to be limited to one set of tires, we need a better tire model. You could put F1 rubber on a road car if you wanted to. It would be a bad idea, but you could do it. GT6 should simulate that. Do what you want, but suffer the consequences. Also of course, offer racing tires that are appropriate for hyper tuned road cars.

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RS tires give an unrealistic amount of grip that no tire ever made in history provided and that's including f1; even Racing Hards are on that zone. RS are worse than SRF, which is completely absurd on itself.
Again, ferrari f1 2007 and 2010 are a prime example of this issue: the appropriate tires for those are comfort softs, not even sports (it changes from car to car).

A better tire model won't improve the RS situation, nor the changing compound problem that is behind it. And comfort softs are the best example in general because that's the one made for "simulation" according to amar and it is not a coincidence that most cars have those as stock or sports hard (in which you should go to comfort softs in most cases. There's a list here somewhere).

And I think you didn't understand my point. Have you tried a proper sim before? At least tried gt5 with all the settings said on the last post?
Point is gt5 cars are made to be unique, having different driving characteristics and trying to be as authentic as their real life counterpart. With the default settings you cannot experience what the developers even wanted in first place (aka "simulation mode"), and even by playing with the menus it is still not possible: have to have a wheel because the controller has hidden assists that cannot be disabled, go to gtp to know abs has a hidden stability assist so it has to be disabled too, know which tire compound goes better with which car (probably comfort softs, not racing by any means whatsoever), and then disable all other assists and no tuning at all. Sure GT5 could be more realistic, for example a "better tire model", but only by doing all that you are playing GT5 in first place.

But again, my idea is creating a separate "simulation" or "racing" mode in which tuning is restricted and is essentially an iracing copy. The general public should have the ability of fitting RS tires and crash each other because the gt series is not a simulator after all, and with the distinction it's finally viable to have a healthy amount of public lobbies without RS tires and all things mentioned above that literally turn GT5 into NFS. You know, making GT6 "The real racing simulator" and "Gran Turismo 1" at the same time.

(tbh I see forza5 ripping this idea off and people will demand it in gtp in a couple of years).

If PD really acknowledged the problem they have with tyre simulation they would be contacting one of the Japanese tyre manufacturers and work in partnership with them. That doesn't automatically give them a perfect tyre model of course but it would at least give them a ton of real world data so racing soft levels of grip can be decreased.

SimonK

If PD really acknowledged the problem they have with tyre simulation they would be contacting one of the Japanese tyre manufacturers and work in partnership with them. That doesn't automatically give them a perfect tyre model of course but it would at least give them a ton of real world data so racing soft levels of grip can be decreased.

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It'd be better but the core issue remains.

By GT6 the general public will realize how absurd racing tires are in gt5. And all remember this thread's title.

avens

A better tire model won't improve the RS situation, nor the changing compound problem that is behind it.

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Yes it will. If PD could hypothetically create a perfect tire model, then any combination of car/tire would be realistic, even if that means the tires instantly shred themselves because they're too soft for a particular car.

And comfort softs are the best example in general because that's the one made for "simulation" according to amar and it is not a coincidence that most cars have those as stock or sports hard (in which you should go to comfort softs in most cases. There's a list here somewhere).

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I'm aware of the tricks used to get closer to the stock performance of cars by changing tires. Yes CS is probably realistic for most sports/supercars, but the CS tire is no better than RS when it comes to realism as a tire. The issue isn't just grip. The tires do not behave like tires, they are grip multipliers. CS is as broken as RS. If they weren't broken, you wouldn't need to match tires to a car to get something realistic.

Example, fit RS tires onto a stock Mini and the grip only moderately improves because the chassis, suspension, and aero can't take advantage of the tires.

I haven't tried the F2007 on CS since GT5P or early GT5, and I agree that CS felt pretty good on them. Apparently GT has issues with high downforce when it's combined with the simple tire model.

However CS on GT cars or so isn't all that convincing. The Racing tires are probably a decent fit for race cars.

Have you tried a proper sim before? At least tried gt5 with all the settings said on the last post?

I've not gotten around to trying iRacing, but I've tried GT5 with everything off on comforts. I've also tried Forza and GTR. GT5, even with CS is riddled with problems. They simply need a new tire model. Removing all the tire options won't do anything.

Sure GT5 could be more realistic, for example a "better tire model", but only by doing all that you are playing GT5 in first place.

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Firstly while ABS has issues, having it on isn't "not playing GT". The stability assist in it isn't even a big deal, especially considering that braking in GT is a bit silly anyway. You can use ridiculous brake bias and still drive. TCS is in no way making GT5 less of a sim, it's basically standard on all cars now. No matter how you play GT, you'll probably run into its flaw. GT doesn't need a "simulation mode" it needs to be overhauled.

But again, my idea is creating a separate "simulation" or "racing" mode in which tuning is restricted and is essentially an iracing copy.

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Removing the ability to tune or modify cars is just a step backwards. It should never happen. An option to have stock online lobbies is good, but removing tuning would be completely ridiculous. If anything a "sim mode" should have more tuning options that we have now.

So you are talking about simulation......without having tried a single simulator or something that at least tries to be realistic? C'mon.

As I said we all know GT5 could be better, but you have to admit SRF and RS are absurd (they do make gt5 less of a sim) and that it is a fact almost no one does all what I put on the list, which is how GT5 becomes alive. Check the abs=0 threads if you want.

It is not a step backwards if it is a separate mode. I'm not forcing people to like the game the way I like it, but just having both the "NFS" side of it and "Sim" living under the same roof.

And again, I'm willing to bet money on that forza5 will have this feature and that gtp users will demand it on gt6, and that racing tires in gt6 will have a lot less grip than in gt5. Sure the calculations will be different, but driving RS will be closer to Sports than Racing tires.

avens

So you are talking about simulation......without having tried a single simulator or something that at least tries to be realistic? C'mon.

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What I listed counts as realistic. They'll all better than GT5. And well, you could add real life to the list I've tried, but I thought we were only talking software.

As I said we all know GT5 could be better, but you have to admit SRF and RS are absurd

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As long as you can turn SRF off, it doesn't really matter. You can, so SRF does nothing to realism. It just existing in the game doesn't make it any less realistic. As for RS, like I just said, they are as absurd as CS tires are. The tire model needs to be fixed. Tweaking grip multipliers is not for a sim.

It is not a step backwards if it is a separate mode. I'm not forcing people to like the game the way I like it, but just having both the "NFS" side of it and "Sim" living under the same roof.

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Trying to erect a wall instead of having an on/off option is just making more work.

In the end it's a useless discussion. Wait one or two years and you'll see mass market titles will have "my" idea in (that I stole from other titles), GT6 will drop RS grip levels considerably and I hope by that time you try the games/sims we are discussing about (Forza4 and GT5 are not even on the same discussed genre).

avens

GT6 will drop RS grip levels considerably

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I thought you wanted a simulator? Changing "grip levels" would be arcade. Like I said, the issue is the tire model. You can play with grip all you want, it won't fix the real problem. Tires don't just have grip levels.

I understand what you're getting at, but you don't seem to understand how a physics engine is supposed to capture reality.

and I hope by that time you try the games/sims we are discussing about (Forza4 and GT5 are not even on the same discussed genre).

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They're simulators, even GT5 is despite its flaws. And like I said, I've driven Real Life(TM). That's pretty much the best simulator there is. I'm not arguing to make GT5 iRacing, I'm arguing to make GT5 reality.

Ive driven Real Life (tm) too, but if you have not even tried the actual attempts of making a game true to reality then it is pointless to discuss about this.

The difference between GT5 and iracing is immense. Completely different genres, and that is mostly because of the rules behind it not the actual driving physics, which is my point.

avens

but if you have not even tried the actual attempts of making a game true to reality...

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OK, what does this involve? Like I said, I've tried GT5 with everything off and CS tires. I use CS more than anything else when it comes to road cars, and I've infact never even used anything that isn't ABS unless the game forced me to or I was fooling around. I have a wheel too.

I also spent lot of time tweaking the aerodynamics for a car which involved working on a simulator that would simulate said car going around a race track.

Or is just trying iRacing the best a human can possible do?

gt5 is not a sim, and again I repeatedly posted that making "a real racing simulator" is more about the rules involved than the actual physics.

avens

gt5 is not a sim, and again I repeatedly posted that making "a real racing simulator" is more about the rules involved than the actual physics.

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OK then, but forcing the removal of tuning or removing all the tires won't give you realistic rules. Letting the player choose restrictions from a large list of options (like having RS tires, but letting the player ban them) will.

With that people will still think the gt series is a lot less realistic than forza (as I said, no one tries gt5 without srf and others) and there is no incentive to do all that.

Besides in gt5 lobbies cannot enforce realistic rules. Again, go try some sims (iracing is not the only one) then come back to discuss about sims.

avens

With that people will still think the gt series is a lot less realistic than forza (as I said, no one tries gt5 without srf and others) and there is no incentive to do all that.

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I do, plenty of people do. I raced in more than one league that did.

And if people think that GT is less realistic for offering options, that is there problem. They can just go on being wrong.

Besides in gt5 lobbies cannot enforce realistic rules. Again, go try some sims (iracing is not the only one) then come back to discuss about sims.

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I only enforce realistic rules in my lobbies. I don't see why I have to try iRacing. I know some of the differences between GT and iRacing, and I know what differs between GT and real life. It still doesn't make the removal of tuning helpful.

Hello, MK2golflover. I really agree with what you're discussing here. Even I think that for a racing game touted as "The Real Driving Simulator," the racing aspect tends to fall flat. Let me speak professionally as a Gran Turismo veteran.

Gran Turismo has, and always will be, about the cars. We trick out cars to our own extent. We race cars to our own extent. We'll talk mess in online sessions with our cars. But in the end, it's all about the cars. I do think Gran Turismo needs to try some new things or look for ways to enhance what the series has long established for more than ten years. One way to do such a thing is to enhance the racing. Everyone has complained from the vague point of "bad A.I." to all kinds of other things. Gran Turismo could use a lot more depth in the racing department. I think even the Forza Motorsport series has a better overall feel of a racing model and a racing career. In enhancing Gran Turismo on the racing front however, there are two sides to this:

1.) Can you enhance the quality of racing in Gran Turismo without it being too much like a proper racing sim (like any SimBin racing game, Project C.A.R.S., rFactor, etc.)?

2.) Does GT have to be like a proper racing sim to enhance the racing aspect?


You are not going to enhance the racing aspect of Gran Turismo overnight or with a simple set of updates. You basically are going to have to gut out Gran Turismo from the ground up to have the game take on a new character and a new flow. I am not disagreeing about ANYTHING discussed here. All I'm wondering is... how do you enhance the series to be much better on the racing front? And can you enhance it all while not completely destroying the character of Gran Turismo? Lot of questions for PD to answer and ponder in delivering GT6 to the masses.

Wanting GT to become the real racing simulator made it to 12th place in the GT Planet feedback forum, it got most of my votes. I'd love the series to grow up a bit, drop all the pointless stuff & focus more on motor racing, but I'm not holding my breath.

http://feedback.gtplanet.net/forums/96709-gt5-feedback

johnbm01

.... In enhancing gran turismo on the racing front however, there are two sides to this:

1.) can you enhance the quality of racing in gran turismo without it being too much like a proper racing sim (like any simbin racing game, project c.a.r.s., rfactor, etc.)?

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Absolutely.

johnbm01

2.) does gt have to be like a proper racing sim to enhance the racing aspect?

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If by this you mean keep it playable and fun for the masses (unlike 'proper' sims), then the answer is- of course it does not have to adopt the off-putting aspects of those simulators. In fact, improving the racing experience would surely be one of the best ways to boost the fun factor of GT. Here are some things that would surely help us out.


*Racier A.I. (besides being much faster this includes more human-like, less robotic behavior- leading to some mistakes and even crashes which are delightful to watch in games like GRID and F1 2012)

*Racing seasons.
*Teams / Clubs / Clans.

*Cautions during races. Full Course and Local.
*Adjustable Flag Rules. (F1, WEC, ALMS, Nascar, etc.. or custom)
*Track Marshalls / caution lights.
*Pace cars.
*Success Weight Ballast options for racing seasons/championships.

*More damage to the environment. Maybe some slight geo-mod.
*Water accumulation/drying effects on the track.
*Dynamic track surface with temperature and humidity affecting grip -also tracks should start green and "rubber in" at different rates depending on grip factors & laps.
*Major work on the debris/particles. Rubber, grass, dirt, mud, dust, rocks, snow, water. Better water spray from tires in the rain -it's not created and dissipated as vertically or smoothly as in real life. In GT5 it explodes out and contracts radially in big chunks.


These mechanical issues could be turned on or off as Options.
. *Mechanical retirements of all kinds. This is a big part of racing. Also it would be nice to see a retired opponent's vehicle sitting in the grass once in a while.
. *Suspension and chassis should heat up and slightly weaken over the course of a long race.
. *Brake fade.
. *Brake system failures. (very rare)
. *Slight Power Loss over long races.
. *Crash Retirements.
. *Blown Tires. (rare)
. *Flat-spotting tires depending on lock-up.
. *Engine Fires. (extremely rare)
. *Engine over-rev time should accumulate and count towards / increase chances of a blown engine/overheating.
. *Lose gears -maybe due to our own clutch errors? (very rare)


*Adjustable Shift Light. (so you can place it above/below redline to protect the motor or help to stay in the torque curve)
*Option to control the car during pitting.
*Option to have Spotter/Crew Chief/Navigator audio in your headset.
*Dynamic and realistic Crowd Noise. In GT5 the crowd noise is absolutely deplorable.
*Track day practices- random cars or performance classes cruising around, dynamic field sizes, sparce/no crowds.
*Online track days with AI employed to fill the fields.

*MANY more driving views. (lower bumper, upper bumper, hood, adjustable cockpit POV with steering wheel on/off and helmet on/off, adjustable chase cam POV with inertia on/off)
*Ability to relocate and change the components of the HUD display.

*Dirt2 style replays. -maybe take the place of the old "Dive" replay from GT4
*Option to control your car after crossing the finish line. -allowing victory lap, burnouts, general madness.
*Victory Cinema clips- paddock, teammates, crew, celebration, podium, interview shots from afar (no sound needed, just
play music). Option to skip all of this, of course


None of this, especially being options, would detract from the 'character' of Gran Turismo. These are just racing immersion and experience additions which would make things a LOT more fun around here.
.

You basically said it all. If GT6 incorporated half of that it would be the best racing sim hands down.

researchALLwars

*Racing seasons.

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This is something I don't want to see. I don't want a "career mode" in GT like in F1 2012 or FIFA or whatever. I prefer the freedom and expansiveness of the GT1-GT4 style "Simulation Mode". It's a better way to allow us to make use of the massive content in the game. Each race is an event for in itself and championship events even more so, but at the end of each, I want to choose what to do next and when.

I'd like to see the on track racing in GT become more realistic, but leave the politics and career simulation out of it.

I am all for freedom and expansiveness. We would certainly hope to keep the openness of GT's A-spec, but maybe have the Option to partake in a particular racing season.

Nothing from my list should result in anything being removed from GT's open style. I would very much like to click into 'Professional Events' and be able to partake in a 'Touring Car Season' with the ability to save progress, exit and race any other event I please, re-enter at the last save point, and also have the ability to go through multiple seasons of said Touring Car races if I may choose to do so..

I agree with you 100% SagarisGTB. The ability to race any event at any time is crucial to gran turismo. When I call for 'Racing Seasons' I am not calling for us to be locked into one as our only path to advance through A-spec.

Forza 4 has a World Tour mode which is pretty linear as the game has more control over what events you will be doing and the tracks you race on. But at the same time, you can still go to the event list and do whatever race you want. Don't see why the same thing can't happen for GT.