The real racing simulator

Two game disks. One for simulation and one for Arcade. Each car should be unique. From stock to pro stock to super stock to racing. Also need individual wheel adjustment for camber, spring rate, ride height, toe and dampers. Tire/wheel size should be selectable. But all will fail if the physics engine does not represent the changes.
 
I'd like PD to "BRING BACK" the different LSD types (I.E. 1.5) that were present in GT2 and GT3 games.

It would be nice to see camber, toe, spring rate and ride height/damper settings for each wheel vice just front and back wheels.

I would like to see more filtering ability when selecting what tuning parts can or cannot be used to tune cars for races on-line. For example, you should be able to allow or disallow each tuning part when staging an on-line race.

The current race selection criteria are just too strict. The host should be able build a car profile using any part or parts they see fit. The exception should be racing cars which to some extent come with pre-determined equipment for the type of racing they do.

And please let us change the wheels, spoilers and extension body parts without being it being classified as a tuned vehicle. Those options do not change the cars performance in the game. So there should be no penalty for using them. Unless of course PD plans to incorporate lip spoilers and extension characteristics into the games physics model.

Racing cars and race modifications should be restricted to racing tires period. And the physics should make driving each type of car appropriately challenging. Who in real life would drive a car capable of obtaining over 190 MPH on “comfort” tires?

Introduce GT1, 2 and 3 racing along with liveries to support it. In fact give players the means to design personal liveries if desired.

For “race car” on-line races introduce rules (flag conditions) for each type of racing done on GT. Better definition of cutting penalities is needed for every track. Some cutting penalties are ridiculous.

Allow creation of “Replica” cars giving the tuner the ability to modify engine torque, wheel size, spoiler types, and paint schemes.

Bring back manufacturer or aftermarket parts list and tuning shops like TRD, Mazda Speed or Calloway to be used for customizing cars. Each shop should be unique and have unique parts. And hopefully the physics will reflect what you have tuned into the car.

Finally, bring the best fictional track the game ever had, SPECIAL STAGE ROUTE 11.
 
JohnBM01
Gran Turismo has, and always will be, about the cars. We trick out cars to our own extent. We race cars to our own extent. We'll talk mess in online sessions with our cars. But in the end, it's all about the cars.
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Absolutely. They should remove some completely superfluous and outdated cars, but I want to see a lot of cars, and the option to visually modify them.

First and foremost, I want to have fun when I play the Gran Turismo series - I don't mind if it isn't a simulator.
 
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occasionalracer
^^ Trust me, it's clear as day it's you who was 'targeted'.
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I usually like to make sure before I assume about someone.

Are you going to offer any actual reasoning to your opinion, or just join someone else in "unicon" in providing nothing of actual substance to this thread?
 
Alright let's not turn this thread into a battle between individuals. ShiftingGears- when there are SO many non-simulator options in the current racing game genre, why on earth are you in a Gran Turismo forum asking for it to be less of a sim?

I hope that this can be attributed to GT being incredibly boring- and you are just reaching for ways to make it more fun. No need to reach like that. GT will always strive be a simulator. Right now it falls a bit short on that goal, and way short on fun-factor. This thread is an attempt to brainstorm ideas that could improve the fun- specifically in the Racing category. If you want to discuss vehicles that need to be removed/added, there are threads for that. Same goes for livery/visual modification options- even though an improvement in this area could possibly be counted as 'racing improvements' by some.

Polyphony does not need to lessen the simulation accuracies to improve the racing and fun-factor. Build upon GT5's platform as was the stated plan, add some of the cool ideas from this thread, ship the game with most of the driving aids 'on' and we're good!

Couple things I missed from my monster post above:

*Proper qualifying as an option. (good grief why do we even have to ask for that?)
*Grid or Rolling start option
*Warm-up lap as an option -which would make rolling starts a lot more fun.
*Full Telemetry -you know, like previous GT's?
*Force-Feedback setting for every car. -just have it as another setting in each car's tuning page.
*Accurate ABS simulation with manufacturer differences
*B-Spec Driver involvement -in endurance races and championships as your teammates
*Fine tune the sense of speed -not looking for Shift levels of warping, but maybe 5-10% of that. In GT5, 120mph feels like 60mph -very numb.
.
 
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researchALLwars
Alright let's not turn this thread into a battle between individuals. ShiftingGears- when there are SO many non-simulator options in the current racing game genre, why on earth are you in a Gran Turismo forum asking for it to be less of a sim?
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I'm not sure I would describe GT as a simulator. On the flipside, there are many games that qualify as racing simulators, so I could ask you the exact opposite question.

I didn't call for it to be less of a simulator either - but I'm saying I wouldn't want to compromise the range of the cars. They could cull a few, but fundamentally the cars, and the sheer number of them, has been one of the main drawcards for the series.

I hope that this can be attributed to GT being incredibly boring- and you are just reaching for ways to make it more fun. No need to reach like that. GT will always strive be a simulator. Right now it falls a bit short on that goal, and way short on fun-factor. This thread is an attempt to brainstorm ideas that could improve the fun- specifically in the Racing category. If you want to discuss vehicles that need to be removed/added, there are threads for that. Same goes for livery/visual modification options- even though an improvement in this area could possibly be counted as 'racing' improvements by some.

Polyphony does not need to lessen the simulation accuracies to improve the racing and fun-factor. Build upon GT5's platform as was the stated plan, add some of the cool ideas from this thread, ship the game with most of the driving aids 'on' and we're good!
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I actually would prefer if GT had the default settings of all driver aids to be off. Driving a muscle car with traction control, or a NASCAR with active stability, is a massive joke. Although I didn't really use an ABS level of zero, simply because it wasn't what I was used to with every other GT game. On the whole, the default implementation of driving aids is a joke, and unnecessary.

On the use of flags - I simply don't have faith that PD could implement penalties for ignoring flags (and with that, any sort of compliance to them) without it being a frustrating and unrealistic experience (ie, ludicrous and unrealistic penalties). Use of safety cars is completely dependent on drivers being able to retire from the race from terminal vehicle damage. So that is a few steps above what they have now - I don't believe it will be something implemented for GT6.

Could you imagine mandatory drive-through or stop-go penalties for collisions with GT5-quality AI? It was bad enough in GT4 in arcade mode, and that was only with 5 rivals. The AI is the factor which everything hinges on, PD need to sort this out before anything more elaborate can be done.

I wouldn't mind several of these ideas regarding flags being implemented, but after 10 years of the Gran Turismo series without the AI being sorted, I will have to see a massive improvement before I jump onboard with the idea of all these additions hinging on the quality of the AI.

I find qualifying important. I've no idea why they dropped it for GT5, I thought it was nice to have it back in GT4. The format was fairly good as well, if I was bothered doing two laps.

As far as victory laps go, I think one thing GT6 doesn't need is superfluous animations. If the fight for the victory still leaves you yearning for more after the checkered flag falls, then Polyphony Digital will have failed, and time spent animating a victory lap won't adjust that. I actually felt that GT5 had too many unnecessary animations just for the sake of having animations, but that is another point.

As far as careers go - I don't know how Forza does it (if I had an XBox I would buy their games for comparison) but whatever it is, GT5's levelling system isn't how. I want to try the 24h races but I just don't care to grind until I unlock them. I think I prefer the freedom of entering events as I please, but I haven't had many games to compare it to.

As far as vehicle damage - I think a gauge would be the only fair way to do it (engine, transmission, suspension damage). Random failures would be simply too frustrating - and besides, the Gran Turismo series need to ease into it. It won't be perfect the first time out, so I think they should input less features if it means getting those features right, rather than implementing half-arsed features. It would be tough because it would then involve damage modelling that looks realistic, like a simulator should.

In any case, B-spec should only be used to fast-forward otherwise time-consuming events. That's the only reason I used it in GT4, because it sure isn't enjoyable to sit and watch it.
 
MK2golflover
In my opinion, the next GT game should focus more on racing and all that comes with It. Don't try putting a thousend card in the game. I will be happy with just 300 If that means we can turn any car from stock to full blown race car and everything in between.

Buying a car and then actually seeing the car stripped with roll cage after full weight reduction is something I have been waiting for a long time. More freedom when it comes to aerodynamics, tire sizes that effect handling and more freedom with the suspension settings.

More open wheel racing would be nice to. We now have the formule gt but they look so dated. Premium newer version would be a nice addition. Also some lower classes ( why stop at go carts) like maybe gt versions of F3?

I'd like to see engine failures aswell. It would really help with the difficulty. Gt series have always been to easy so I'm not expection a big improvement I A.I. but making you manage you car more could be a solution to the A.I. problem. Want to race your 1000hp street car full throttle in races longer than 3 laps? Be ready to lower the rev limiter when your engine starts getting hot!

All the updates in 5 have made the game so much better but all I'm missing now is a good carreer mode. Racing the I.A. in gt feels so lifeless at the moment and I think that with the ability to really build a car ( not just buying all the fast parts) will make carreer mode so much better.

They got the driving down, no focus on the racing:)
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I agree.. 1000 cars with 20 very very similar variations of one car doesn't do me much good. And DLC's could become something like a DLC pack for BTCC cars and tracks. or WRCC cars and tracks. you know, by racing series that doesn't come with the game by default. Instead of haveing a DLC for 1 or 3 cars... Maybe then people will be more likely to buy the DLCs, join racing by specs, etc.
 
Wow forgot all about this hahaha. When I said engine failure I mean controllable. Everybody hates random engine failure (they should). Its more about having something like lowering your rev limiter when your engine gets hot to ad to the the difficulty. It's a sollution for PD not being able to make good AI and I think it beats giving the AI a big lead at the start of the race and you playing chase.

Having a more lively race would be the next step for me in GT.
 
I'd also like them to get rid of pp and give us more restriction options. Like downfore, engine type, displacement, length, width and height of car restrictions.
 
I'm just going to say this they go more towards racing side you risk a lot of stuff like losing many fans. Also no matter how real you try to make it IT'S JUST A VIDEO GAME remember that people.

All this technical stuff while some of it's welcome I'm more concerned with major things like A.I basically each and every A.I being competitive and not what happened in GT5. Even just the # of tracks
 
If you focus on the cars and their individual performance and balance the cars into a class system you pretty much have a racing sim.

You build a proper driving sim and turning it into a racing one seems pie.
 
About the Racing Soft tyre. Watching motor racing in general, the slick tyres in real life have loads of grip. When the tyre heats up at optimum temps, I WISH Gran Turismo cars changed direction like the real cars. I don't know how many frames per second the next gen will be but, when I watch a DTM race or V8 Supercars( and trust I know cars move around at all times- I went for a hot lap around Eastern Creek in a 2012 R35 GT-R) I want that same sensation.

In regards to the sports tyres, again, watching best motoring videos, the change in direction shows more grip than what we get in the game. I agree with everyone's point about talking to proper tyre engineers to get that data and implement it correctly in GT.
 
Well what you want is mostly what simulators on PC have.

The mechanical failures is easy to do, but not making them randomly...I mean like you said about stressing the engine. In rFactor ,for example, the engine blows up if you keep pressing the gas at max while the car is parked...the temperature goes up and engine dies and you see some fire or smoke. (same in most of the simulators)

The "temp" failure could be a great addition...something similar to F1 2011, if you keep going at higher revs (over the limit) you can brake the engine, the spotter tells you that you need to change gears before the limit to cool down the engine/gearbox for a while.

Now it will be great the tyre wear/degradation as rFactor, it works like GT5 in some way but add that if you brake too hard (or block your tyres) you can make "plains" in your tyres that affects the FFB. You can feel it because your wheel starts to shake like it happens in real life. (people who watch F1 should know what I mean)
Also it has a "real road" features which means that the track (the surface) will get warmer after making laps, it is going to have rubber in it coming from the tyres of the cars, the proper "line" of the track will be created for you in real time...everytime you pass your tyres will leave marks in the surface. (rubber marks; to make it clear that dark part of the track in where the cars are passing every lap, in most of the games is just a layer in the textures but in rFactor 2 it will be generated by the cars)

Example of tyre wear/degradation:

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This is from early development:





Look how reacts here. Later build:



Games/simulators as LFS had this but not at this level. Or the aquaplaning effect from NetKar Pro which is incredible.

That will be great for GT series...a proper tyre model and suspension too. 👍
 
Zuku
I'm just going to say this they go more towards racing side you risk a lot of stuff like losing many fans. Also no matter how real you try to make it IT'S JUST A VIDEO GAME remember that people.

All this technical stuff while some of it's welcome I'm more concerned with major things like A.I basically each and every A.I being competitive and not what happened in GT5. Even just the # of tracks
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I don't see what the risk is? You ad to what already is there. See it more as een improvemt to the game. I agree with you on the A.I. part but they will never be competitive if cars are as easy to drive a they are in GT right?

You can keep everything GT5 has and still can have an A-spec that makes some sense right? Try the DTM races, only 2 of the cars in that race are supposed to compete with each other. What is a 190 doing vs a CLK in a DTM race? Cool cars but not good for competitive racing.
 
MK2golflover
You can keep everything GT5 has and still can have an A-spec that makes some sense right? Try the DTM races, only 2 of the cars in that race are supposed to compete with each other. What is a 190 doing vs a CLK in a DTM race? Cool cars but not good for competitive racing.
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And that's the thing I can't understand. We had the BTCC series cars in GT2 after you bought the racing modification, liveries and all. I DO. Understand it was only 6 cars at the time in the series, but PD had time to at least add new standard racing cars to make a complete field. Not 6 DTM and the rest WRC and a GT Award winner from 2008. We all have gripes and I guess it is time to move on and like everyone, HOPE, we will see the best in the series when GT6 drops. And one more thing, I will not be impressed if there are rolling starts and I'm 24 out of 30 cars in a single file. I'll still play but, c'mon son...
 
05XR8
And that's the thing I can't understand. We had the BTCC series cars in GT2 after you bought the racing modification, liveries and all. I DO. Understand it was only 6 cars at the time in the series, but PD had time to at least add new standard racing cars to make a complete field. Not 6 DTM and the rest WRC and a GT Award winner from 2008. We all have gripes and I guess it is time to move on and like everyone, HOPE, we will see the best in the series when GT6 drops. And one more thing, I will not be impressed if there are rolling starts and I'm 24 out of 30 cars in a single file. I'll still play but, c'mon son...
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Exactly! When GT5 came out DTM only had 2 car brands (Mercedes & Audi). All they had to do was make these 2 with diffrent liveries and we could have a DTM race that makes sense. All we have now is super gt and even that has a mixxed field of cars from different years but atleast they don't look out of place most of the time.

I can't stand doing the 24 hours of le mans because I'm racing cars from different years. These are things PD can fix while keeping both casual and hardcore gt fans happy.
 
They've never got car competition right. If you enter an arcade professional race with a GT300 car is your competition other GT300 cars of which I believe there is around 11? Except for a couple, no. It's mostly completely random cars, some race cars, some road cars.
 
I'm playing GT5P right now and all it needs is Time/weather change, Spa, Suzuka and 24H Nur. It looks better than GT5.
 
Great posts there by 05XR8 and MK2golflover. The competition that they give you in these races is the definition of afterthought.

Maybe with the "operating system" of GT5 basically being used for 6- they will have focused on the stuff that really matters. With all of the attention paid to GTAcademy, it is quite possible that racing/competition/driver development will be the meat of our next Gran Turismo experience..

I don't know about you guys, but I'm hungry as hell.
 
I've always seen GT as a game for car lovers and not just a red-blooded racer. I like how it caters for every type of car lover and that's something I hope the next title(s) don't lose.
 
TS is on point here. I am a LONG time GT fan....and Forza is looking better and better. Obviously that game is far from perfect, but they seem to be closer to the magic formula then Polyphony at the present. Polyphony would be smart to take the series in a grittier direction. I'd love to have the option to buy any of the available cars in the game and take it from a slow, grocery getter to a well tuned race machine. That sounds like much more fun then trying to grind as much credits as possible so I can buy a bunch of different shiny inert replicas that offer little to no personality.
 
Actually, taking notes from Rfactor and sprinkling them into the GT formula would be awesome I think. Obviously I wouldn't expect the game to be THAT hardcore, but I think adding in some of the elements and making the next GT game less about showing off shiny cars and more about the actual experience racing them would be a welcome addition.

If Polyphony doesn't want to do it, I wish someone else would step up and fill the void. Either that or I'm going to need to buy a PC.
 
JohnBM01
Hello, MK2golflover. I really agree with what you're discussing here. Even I think that for a racing game touted as "The Real Driving Simulator," the racing aspect tends to fall flat. Let me speak professionally as a Gran Turismo veteran.

Gran Turismo has, and always will be, about the cars. We trick out cars to our own extent. We race cars to our own extent. We'll talk mess in online sessions with our cars. But in the end, it's all about the cars. I do think Gran Turismo needs to try some new things or look for ways to enhance what the series has long established for more than ten years. One way to do such a thing is to enhance the racing. Everyone has complained from the vague point of "bad A.I." to all kinds of other things. Gran Turismo could use a lot more depth in the racing department. I think even the Forza Motorsport series has a better overall feel of a racing model and a racing career. In enhancing Gran Turismo on the racing front however, there are two sides to this:

1.) Can you enhance the quality of racing in Gran Turismo without it being too much like a proper racing sim (like any SimBin racing game, Project C.A.R.S., rFactor, etc.)?

2.) Does GT have to be like a proper racing sim to enhance the racing aspect?


You are not going to enhance the racing aspect of Gran Turismo overnight or with a simple set of updates. You basically are going to have to gut out Gran Turismo from the ground up to have the game take on a new character and a new flow. I am not disagreeing about ANYTHING discussed here. All I'm wondering is... how do you enhance the series to be much better on the racing front? And can you enhance it all while not completely destroying the character of Gran Turismo? Lot of questions for PD to answer and ponder in delivering GT6 to the masses.
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You really should try C.A.R.S. before you say its a sim (or any good for that matter.) Until very recently, it has been unplayable, and the physics still need (a lot of) work.
 
just want to leave a comment here from Dessy182 that he posted in response to an article about kaz's "human drama" comment..

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6.August 27th, 2012 at 2:17 pm - #
Dessy182
After spending a whole week driving fast cars at Silverstone I think I understand what he means. When you play at home it is easy to be relaxed and very comfortable. When you are out there on track however there is a whole new level of pressure, fatigue and discomfort to deal with.

With regard to the drama he speaks of, here’s what my thoughts on what we could see.

- Larger consequences for mistakes by you.
- Way more variables that can affect your race that aren’t in your control (e.g. mechanical issues)
- Possibly only getting one chance to do a specific challenge. No restarts.

I do expect live track weather, track evolution (grip and marbles) and destructible environments to be all in GT6 though ;)

This week I had to deal with pressure on a level I’d never felt. In a dog fight with Thomas Gibson (GTP_rutter200). 2 lap races around stowe in the race spec 370, best of 3 wins and I lost the first race. I had to win twice in a row or I was going home. GT never simulated that level of pressure so I think it is important it starts trying to.
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Safe to say that this guy is a credible source, to an extent. I really like the enviromental damage prospects. More grit and grime, please..
 

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