Motor Trend - Best Driver's Car 2011

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Bottoz
Agree with your paragraph 1.

Disagree with 2.

Mix on 3. Testing the total package... ok cool same tires. Getting fast lap times, put 'em on the same tire.
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Why do you disagree with paragraph 2? Different tires have different coefficient of friction, different tread patterns and different rubber compounds, thus providing different levels of grip, rigidity and wear. Putting tires on a car that are different from what the vehicle was engineered with will change the handling characteristics, whether for the better or worse.

And you aren't accurately testing the entire package when you run all the same tires. All you are testing is how Car X, Y and Z perform with a specific tire. Even then it may not be accurate either since I doubt any of the cars in this test have the same tire size. Different tire sizes provide different characteristics. For example a tire may be stiff enough on one car but not on the other due to smaller rims, this would cause the tire to be squishy and have negative results for the car.

The best way to perform tests that put one car against another is to have everything OEM so that way you are testing the car as a whole. By putting the same tires on the cars, all you are testing is how the car handles on X set of tires, not the car as a whole.

But just to show you how important tires are to a car, look at this excerpt from Ford's PR.

Media.Ford.com
...The final touch was to add the proper wheels and tires: Laguna Seca models use lightweight 19-inch alloy racing wheels in staggered widths: 9 inches in front, 10 inches in the rear. R-compound ultra-high-performance tires, 255/40R-19 in the front, 285/35R-19 in the rear, maintain contact with the pavement – a job that ended up being trickier than expected.

“The R-compound tires on the Laguna Seca are so sticky we had to really work on the rear suspension tuning to make sure drivers can get the most out of them,” explains Pericak. “The rear stabilizer bar is the largest we’ve ever installed on a production Mustang – including any SVT product. The rear spring rate was also maximized to work with the massive rear tires and balance the car for outstanding lap times.”...
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Put different tires on the car would make it worse then what it would be if you bought one from the factory, which would make the test invalid.
 
That's what I'm saying, tires are important when determining lap times! Motor Trend tests "the whole package." OEM... I get it. But, they also list lap times. What I'm saying, is that tires make a huge difference in lap times. And if I were to run the test, I'd put everyone on the same make tire. Yes, they have different sizes... but I wouldn't give a car a grip advantage.

(I did a quick google search on what the Boss and Cayman R had for stock tires)
The Boss is on Pirelli P-Zero Corsas, a R-compound tire. The Cayman is on Bridgstone Potenza RE050As, a summer tire. The Boss has a huge on track advantage. If the Porsche had P-Zero Corsas it's lap times would absolutely be better. If the Boss had Potenza RE050As it's lap times would be worse.

Is the Boss a better track car? Is it better on Laguna Seca than the Cayman R? Well... it's tires sure are. Put the Cayman R on R-comps and re-run the test.
 
Joey D
Why do you disagree with paragraph 2? Different tires have different coefficient of friction, different tread patterns and different rubber compounds, thus providing different levels of grip, rigidity and wear. Putting tires on a car that are different from what the vehicle was engineered with will change the handling characteristics, whether for the better or worse.
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I think, for the sake of arguement, he was referring to grippier track day-style rubber when he said "different" tyres, rather than putting them all on Goodyears if some were on Michelins, for example.

If one car is on semi-slicks it will reflect positively on its lap time if all the others are on regular street tyres.

I'm certainly not saying that was the case for any of the cars in question (which I discussed at length one time in another thread with people who refused to understand the concept), but if I understand correctly that's what Bottoz was getting at, rather than saying that all the cars should run exactly the same make and brand of tyres. Edit: Apparently not :P I think I might go find my flame suit as I've had this exact arguement before...
 
Bottoz
Is the Boss a better track car? Is it better on Laguna Seca than the Cayman R? Well... it's tires sure are. Put the Cayman R on R-comps and re-run the test.
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I think you're missing the point entirely on the purpose of their testing.
 
R1600... I know they are testing Stock for Stock. I get it. That's how they always do it. Original Equipment vs Original Equipment. But, as soon as they compare lap times the first thing I look at is tire selection. If tire selection is different, then the test is wack.

At least they have US Stig Randy Pobst driving all the cars, and not a different driver in each car.

See... I'm trying to eliminate the varibles in testing. Same driver, same tires, different car. THAT is a proper measurment of how quicikly a car can get around a race track. Take the tires out of the equation. Measure the car.
 
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I think it's hilarious that bmw has so much trouble putting their M logo in the right spot.

M3 > 3M
X6M > MX6
1M > M1
 
Danoff
I think it's hilarious that bmw has so much trouble putting their M logo in the right spot.

M3 > 3M
X6M > MX6
1M > M1
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The "1M" is that way on purpose, so it didn't get confused with:

BMW-M1-1990-front-view.jpg
 
Bottoz
Measure the car.
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But what makes a tire not part of a car?

If your point stands, should all cars be filled with the same lubricant, same fuel, same oil and use the same brand of brake pads?

A tire is part of the car, it's included in what you pay for.

I know tire makes a huge difference in lap time but if such tire is what a car offers, it is part of its performance rating, I think at best they can list the wear rate of each OEM tires but it doesn't really mean much.

And if you select a particular tire, it may benefit certain car over another, which again renders the comparison pointless.
 
Bottoz
Listen to the shifts... sounds pretty darn quick to me. I say it is.
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It's not the speed of the shifts, whether the guy had left it in D or using the PDK paddles the actual speed of the shifts would be the same, it's more a case of the car sounding like it's changing up early and changing down late on several occasions, and not seeing his fingers flip the paddles when the in-car shot comes on.
 
Bottoz
That's what I'm saying, tires are important when determining lap times! Motor Trend tests "the whole package." OEM... I get it. But, they also list lap times. What I'm saying, is that tires make a huge difference in lap times. And if I were to run the test, I'd put everyone on the same make tire. Yes, they have different sizes... but I wouldn't give a car a grip advantage.

(I did a quick google search on what the Boss and Cayman R had for stock tires)
The Boss is on Pirelli P-Zero Corsas, a R-compound tire. The Cayman is on Bridgstone Potenza RE050As, a summer tire. The Boss has a huge on track advantage. If the Porsche had P-Zero Corsas it's lap times would absolutely be better. If the Boss had Potenza RE050As it's lap times would be worse.

Is the Boss a better track car? Is it better on Laguna Seca than the Cayman R? Well... it's tires sure are. Put the Cayman R on R-comps and re-run the test.
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The reason for the lap times is to show the consumer they can go to the respective dealership, buy a car and barring they are a good drive put down times roughly in the same neighbourhood as there tests. That's the point they were trying to show. From the factory, the fastest car they tested for a "driver's car" around Laguna Seca is the Mustang.

And tire sizes do affect the grip of a car. Wider, low profile tires have less flex and a larger contact patch, whereas skinnier, higher profile tires have more flex and a smaller contact patch. So putting R compounds on the Lexus that has f:265/35-20 and r:305/30-20 compared to the Mustang's f:255/40-19 and r:285/35-19, will give the Lexus the grip advantage.

Tires play a huge role in a cars performance, I mean would you want every car to be the same weight? Have the same suspension? The same brakes? And so on. Tires are part of the car and should be left alone if you are testing which one is better around a track, swapping different tires is no different then swapping brakes, suspension or engine components.

I know how you would do it as a test, but the way you are suggesting would only prove which car is fast on X tire, instead of which car is better based on engineering. I'd rather buy a car based on which is better from the factory, not what I can make better by adding my own components.


Bottoz
See... I'm trying to eliminate the varibles in testing. Same driver, same tires, different car. THAT is a proper measurment of how quicikly a car can get around a race track. Take the tires out of the equation. Measure the car.
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You aren't eliminating any variables though because you are then left with the question of which car is better in its factory form.
 
Bottoz
That's what I'm saying, tires are important when determining lap times! Motor Trend tests "the whole package." OEM... I get it. But, they also list lap times. What I'm saying, is that tires make a huge difference in lap times. And if I were to run the test, I'd put everyone on the same make tire. Yes, they have different sizes... but I wouldn't give a car a grip advantage.

(I did a quick google search on what the Boss and Cayman R had for stock tires)
The Boss is on Pirelli P-Zero Corsas, a R-compound tire. The Cayman is on Bridgstone Potenza RE050As, a summer tire. The Boss has a huge on track advantage. If the Porsche had P-Zero Corsas it's lap times would absolutely be better. If the Boss had Potenza RE050As it's lap times would be worse.

Is the Boss a better track car? Is it better on Laguna Seca than the Cayman R? Well... it's tires sure are. Put the Cayman R on R-comps and re-run the test.
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I'm with you. Sure the test might be about which cars are fastest in stock form, but I'm not actually all that interested. If I owned either car, I'd probably switch them out to the tire of my choice (same tire) as soon as the first set wore out - at which point the tire is no longer a factor.

I'd definitely be more interested in how the cars perform without tires as a factor (as a potential purchaser).
 
From a customer point of view I'd likely always go with whatever tyre the factory recommended, but nobody can disagree that if one car out of several is wearing stickier rubber than the rest it won't reflect positively on its lap time.
 
Danoff
I'd definitely be more interested in how the cars perform without tires as a factor (as a potential purchaser).
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No matter how you test it it is always going to be a factor.

Stock spring rates are all set with a particular level of cornering G in mind, once you mess with it, the test isn't fair anymore.

If you want the real potential of the chassis, wait for tuners and general consumers to find out.
 
JJ72
If you want the real potential of the chassis, wait for tuners and general consumers to find out.
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I don't think anyone is debating how well the cars handle, just that stickier tyres = a quicker lap time.

As I've mentioned before, outright grip has very little to do with "handling". You can have a car with awesome grip that handles awfully, and a car with very little grip at all that has brilliant handling. The awful handling car will be quicker around a circuit because it has better grip.
 
JJ72
Chassis affects lap time just as it affects handling.
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It does, but the differences in a car with a poor chassis and one with a good chassis can be offset by equipping the car with a poor chassis with sticky tyres.

Again for the record I'm not saying that's the case in this test, but it does affect lap times, so lap times can't really be used when comparing handling unless it's to point out that particularly poor balance or untidy handling affects the confidence of the driver. The 1M Coupe would be an example in this particular test. In theory it should be able to match the Porsche's lap, but getting the power down cleanly is very difficult for the guy driving. The lap time bears this confidence gap clearly.
 
JJ72
No matter how you test it it is always going to be a factor.

Stock spring rates are all set with a particular level of cornering G in mind, once you mess with it, the test isn't fair anymore.

If you want the real potential of the chassis, wait for tuners and general consumers to find out.
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Except that as a potential purchaser, I'm not going to mess with the spring rates or tune the suspension in any way. What I am going to do, is go with a tire that would likely be the same regardless of which of the cars I purchased.

In otherwords, if I were to buy the porsche, or the mustange, or the lotus, or the 1M, I would likely put the same rubber on it regardless of the car (paying no attention to OEM). As a result, I'd be more interested in a test that kept the same rubber on all cars.

This is simply because of my own purchasing habits (which I suspect reflect many many people).
 
Personal fav list so far..

1. Evora S
2. BMW 1M
3. Cayman R
4. 911 GT3 RS
5. LF-A
6. Mustang
 
Out of all those, I think I would take the Cayman R actually. I never have liked the Boxster, but the Cayman is something else...
 

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