Motor Trend - Best Driver's Car 2011

[Dan_]

Funny thing is, the Ferrari wasn't the fastest at the track, lost the drag race, doesn't sound as good as the Lexus in my opinion,
and it's a playboymobile. Even so, it won the judges by the simple fact that it is brilliant at absolutely everything, including the very subjective matter called ''driving pleasure''.

Nice test and an expected victory, the 458 is already a myth.

 

[Danoff]

Funny thing is, the Ferrari wasn't the fastest at the track, lost the drag race, doesn't sound as good as the Lexus in my opinion,
and it's a playboymobile. Even so, it won the judges by the simple fact that it is brilliant at absolutely everything, including the very subjective matter called ''driving pleasure''.

Nice test and an expected victory, the 458 is already a myth.

You don't seem to have been reading this thread. I guess you're considering the GTR the big winner? I could see that.

 

[CMvan46]

On the other hand, Motortrend could have used summer tires on all the cars and it would have been a perfectly valid test. However, this test was about the best you could get from the factory, and denying a car it's top factory options would only give an unfair advantage to the manufactures who didn't offer better options to the consumer. Why purposely omit the best that the manufacturer can offer?

I do see where you're coming from, and a test that run as you suggest would be interesting to see. I just don't think it's any more valid than this one.

I disagreed with you all the way up to that point. My only problem there (as somebody who has no manufacture bias) is that now in a way they are testing manufactures against each other instead of just the pure car.

As a car fan I'd like to see all factors leveled out so we can see what is truelly the best car instead of a car being handicapped because the manufacture didn't offer certain tires. I do agree though that I don't think unfair advantage should be given to a manufacture by disallowing the best options.

I agree with the two tests. This one which proves straight from the factory which car is the very best. Lets face it, yes we all change our tires but show me one person who buys new tires straight off the lot. There isn't anybody, this test shows based on what is available straight from the lot which is the best.

I think then a test running them all on summer tires and then all on r-compounds would be a good test then showing what car is the best based on the same tires and therefore and even playing field for the cars instead of the manufacture.

 

[Exorcet]

I disagreed with you all the way up to that point. My only problem there (as somebody who has no manufacture bias) is that now in a way they are testing manufactures against each other instead of just the pure car.

My only response to that is that the tires are as much a part of the car as the suspension, cup holders, and engine. Offering better tires is just like offering better suspension. But people call out the former as unfair while taking the latter as being expected. To me it's the same.

There are an infinite number of ways to look at/conduct a test. One that seeks to "even out" the tires is perfectly valid. It would just be testing something other than what MT was testing.

There just seems to be a belief that the tires aren't a part of the car, or that they are a part of the car but don't really count as "belonging" to the car. I bet part of it has to do with how easy and common it is to change tires like Danoff mentioned. Part of it probably also comes from the fact that the tires are made by separate companies, but then again so are engines, chassis, brakes, and aerodynamic parts. What is it that makes tires special? That's probably the key to the disagreement going on in this thread.

 

[paskowitz]

Super drag race added.

 

[Joel]

I love the Corvette, I think it's a phenomenal car. However, I think you're kidding yourself if you think the Corvette would be faster than the 458, GT-R and LFA on R-compounds.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

I love the Corvette, I think it's a phenomenal car. However, I think you're kidding yourself if you think the Corvette would be faster than the 458, GT-R and LFA on R-compounds.

Why? The ZR1 could certainly be faster than those cars. I'm not saying it will, but there is a decent possibility.

 

[Exorcet]

I love the Corvette, I think it's a phenomenal car. However, I think you're kidding yourself if you think the Corvette would be faster than the 458, GT-R and LFA on R-compounds.

Ferrari maybe. Can you provide reasons why the others would fair so well?

 

[Danoff]

Why? The ZR1 could certainly be faster than those cars. I'm not saying it will, but there is a decent possibility.

The gain from r-compounds is going to be much greater than the difference in lap times right now (2 seconds for all 3 cars mentioned). I'd expect the all-r-compound (or all-summer) results to be:

1) 458
2) GT-R
3) LFA
4) 'Vette

..and I personally also really love the 'Vette. There would be no shame in 4th place either.

 

[Exorcet]

The gain from r-compounds is going to be much greater than the difference in lap times right now

I think that's up for debate.

http://fastestlaps.com/articles/pimp_my_ride_the_right_way.html

Semi slicks on this car made between 2.5 and 2.9 % difference. The latter was with adjustable suspension, and I'm ignoring the small effect from the lighter wheels.

So let's say slicks give a 3% lap time advantage. Most of the cars ran low 1:36, so let's take 1:36.2 as a reference lap time.

1:36.2 * 97% = 1:33.314

Indeed faster than the Corvette, but there's plenty of uncertainly involved here. It could be argued that 3% is an upper bound based on the SportAuto test and the fact that, once again, only the Z06 has purpose fitted tires. If we take the 2.5% lower bound, you get a 1:34.757, which is slower than the Z06.

There's also the fact that on summer tires, the Z06 in latest form is still neck and neck with the GT-R in the few times they've gone head to head.

 

[Danoff]

I think that's up for debate.

http://fastestlaps.com/articles/pimp_my_ride_the_right_way.html

Semi slicks on this car made between 2.5 and 2.9 % difference. The latter was with adjustable suspension, and I'm ignoring the small effect from the lighter wheels.

...and how do you feel these cars would do with r-compounds, as opposed to a TTS?

Indeed faster than the Corvette, but there's plenty of uncertainly involved here. It could be argued that 3% is an upper bound based on the SportAuto test and the fact that, once again, only the Z06 has purpose fitted tires.

The Z06 having purpose fitted tires has no impact on what percentage to apply based on your single data-point of SportsAuto. None whatsoever.

Furthermore, the fact that the Z06 has factory selected r-compounds suggests that it would take a LARGER hit when going to summer tires than your SportsAuto figures would suggest.

There's also the fact that on summer tires, the Z06 in latest form is still neck and neck with the GT-R in the few times they've gone head to head.

Let's see some proper racing laps with the same driver in the same conditions with the same tires between Z06 and GT-R. (this is what I've wanted all along)

 

[Exorcet]

...and how do you feel these cars would do with r-compounds, as opposed to a TTS?

More or less the same percentage wise. Keep in mind that the final TT-S nearly was as fast the cars in this comparison.

But I need not guess, as I can produce cars more like the Z06

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/comparison/evil-twins

Viper - 3.2% [not only were the PS2's (as on Z06) changed to Pilot Cups (as on Z06), but they were supplemented by aero and suspension.]

Porsche - 4 % [despite different engines, on top of aero, suspension, and tires]

Gallardo - 2%


R compound can't perform magic.

The Z06 having purpose fitted tires has no impact on what percentage to apply based on your single data-point of SportsAuto. None whatsoever.

It's not something I can put to numbers at this time, that's correct. And I've only got 1 data point (excluding the three I just added). But, the purpose built tire is something to consider. I never used it to pick a percentage, but merely to say that the MT cars might not gain as much as the TT with its adjustable suspension. In the end I evaluated the upper and lower bounds based on the data taken from the SportAuto test. I never said which bound was better, because I simply don't know. I also feel that one data point is better than zero, which is how many data points the opposing side has delivered.

Furthermore, the fact that the Z06 has factory selected r-compounds suggests that it would take a LARGER hit when going to summer tires than your SportsAuto figures would suggest.

True, if you ignore the error from a total different car, etc. But I wasn't looking at that scenario [Z06 downgraded], and we don't need to extrapolate. I've already provided evidence showing that on summer tires, the Z06 does not fall behind [Admittedly one data point].

Let's see some proper racing laps with the same driver in the same conditions with the same tires between Z06 and GT-R. (this is what I've wanted all along)

That would be the test I posted [if you accept same type of tire instead of same tire]:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...gt500_2012_nissan_gtr_comparison/viewall.html

Conducted by the same Randy Pobst that did this test. Result?

Corvette (non R compound) - 1:20.43
GT-R - 1:20.25

And while I feel that the test you just mentioned in that last quote is valid, it doesn't really have much purpose. I do believe a test where the cars are arbitrarily given identical tires is in fact worse than giving them their own tires. It's like throwing away the engines and replacing them with the M5's V-10.

 

[Danoff]

That would be the test I posted [if you accept same type of tire instead of same tire]:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...gt500_2012_nissan_gtr_comparison/viewall.html

Conducted by the same Randy Pobst that did this test. Result?

Corvette (non R compound) - 1:20.43
GT-R - 1:20.25

It would be easy for me to sit here and say "see, just as I predicted", but 0.18 seconds is too close to call.

 

[Cano]

What amazed me is that all of the cars entered the 12 second realm, even the Evora.

Damn. Anything will do 12s today.

 

[CMvan46]

There just seems to be a belief that the tires aren't a part of the car, or that they are a part of the car but don't really count as "belonging" to the car. I bet part of it has to do with how easy and common it is to change tires like Danoff mentioned. Part of it probably also comes from the fact that the tires are made by separate companies, but then again so are engines, chassis, brakes, and aerodynamic parts. What is it that makes tires special? That's probably the key to the disagreement going on in this thread.

I think that's entirely correct. It really does depend on how somebody thinks of the tires. With performance cars each manufacture should be putting out the best tires they can to match price and optimize performance. I very much agree again.

 

[Dan_]

You don't seem to have been reading this thread. I guess you're considering the GTR the big winner? I could see that.

What?

Nice test and an expected victory, the 458 is already a myth.

I'm not sure about the nature or intentions of your post, but if you were at any point trying to joke, you failed mate.