- 13,153
- GTPlanet
- Street-King-07
- Quattro Saltire
COD ghosts was already hacked before it's release date
So was GTA 5.
PD vs Hackers "Notice of Account Ban Measures"
- Thread starter p3bucky
- 470 comments
- 26,765 views
So was GTA 5.
- 34,632
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
True, which, again, baffles me, especially because the games you mention have anti-cheat protection on the PC, but not (or limited) on the consoles.
I can only guess whatever Restrictions the big three companies have make it difficult to implement the same process on console (that and it doesn't help that its more restrictive, which makes fun things like modding not at all possible, legally anyway
- 84,459
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
True, which, again, baffles me, especially because the games you mention have anti-cheat protection on the PC, but not (or limited) on the consoles.
PC games are, in general, client-server. Console games are, in general, peer-to-peer. Things like PunkBuster are installed on the server and in peer-to-peer you're all the server - notice how in games like COD4 which is client-server on PC, PunkBuster servers prevent cheating but in its sequel MW2 which is P2P even on the PC, they don't.
P2P games still have servers of a sort - for matchmaking and whatnot - but they don't handle any gameplay data.
- 46
- Canada
Terms of service are exactly what they are called, the terms in which service will be provided, nothing more. The other things you mention have nothing to do with a ToS. Creating a civil suit for damages does not require a ToS to be in place first, totally unrelated.
PD uses SCEA's EULA, which is invalid here for several reasons.
As far as IP laws go, they cover patents and copyrights here. I realize they can cover more in other countries such as trade secrets and such. Nothing in this thread implies patent nor copyright infringement.
And as a ending note, none of my personal use of the on line services has led to negative consequences to other players. I play in lobbies I create and/or those of my friends, all have warnings that hacking is taking place in them that unlike the EULA can be read before entering.
- 633
- Der Drachen
- hognhominy
Unless one were to make a convincing argument that by swapping chassis' One manufacturers technology/likeness is now being used to "advertise" another companies product. There by putting PD in a position to be in breach of contract with various Manufacturers, and liable for damages.
That would be a tough argument to make, and beyond the scope of this thread; but I'm not an attorney and I can see it COULD be possible
- 46
- Canada
It would be a very, very tough argument considering in game a chassis is just a Mass, wheelbase, front and back widths, with no graphic parts. Also you would have to convince a court that GT6 was an advertising venue and that PD gets paid for that advertising rather than paying licensing fees. Oh lets not forget how damaging and unlawful it is to imply one companies product is better than another's. Never forget those in prison for choosing Pepsi over Coca-Cola during the cola wars. And finally prove that PD was responsible for a 3rd parties actions.
But ya I can see that.
<jk> <----------- Look he's just kidding! Next thing you know they'll be putting right hand turns on race tracks.
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nasanu
(Banned)
- 1,429
- Australia
- nasanu
- nasanu
Why would you possibly produce hashs for setups? That is insane. Who cares what a gear ratio is set to?
By my limited understanding of the hacking, people are swapping parts. This bit can easily be stopped. There are only a very limited number of parts each car can have and easily within the bounds of a small hash table. You make a hash against the ID of the parts that make up the car, it has nothing at all to do with setup values.
Though I've never really looked into the details of hacking cars, is there a way to make huge HP cars while keeping the cars stock? Hell even if there is you can still use the same basic idea. Just make a table with min and max values for each part associated with each car and check these at run time. The simple fact is that there is only so much you can do to alter the cars and this can always be checked against values stored on the server.
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- 40,422
As I recall there were a few people who made the exact same claims a year ago, and some of them even peppered their arguments then with their years and years in the industry as if that was proof in and of itself; but I don't remember anyone actually bothering to link the two concepts (save game hacking and intellectual property laws) in a way that explained how it is illegal now to modify game code in any way because you don't own it and thus have no say with how you use it, but it was perfectly fine to do so from 1990-2006ish when software was sold in any store that sold videogames that allowed everyone to do the exact same thing.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Unfortunatly I find myself agreeing with @nasanu
You don't need to check transmission gear ratios, you only need check for example like this:
69' Corvette max 5 speed - Yes or No - Done.
There is nothing to be gained by swapping one 5 speed for another, only be adding another gear. GT transmissions are plenty adjustable to keep any car in the preferred rpm range in every gear.
I'd even argue the same with engine swaps and only check for max power and max torque, unless there's an identifier of some kind that goes with engine. I'm not saying to allow engine swaps to go unchecked, I'm saying lets take the easily identifiable hybrids out of the game first, with the simple and easy fixes and checks, and work on the harder stuff as time goes by.
I say again, there's no excuse for a 1550+ HP car to ever get into a lobby whether HP is limited by the host or not. Some simple max/min parameters and simple spec checks could eliminate almost all the hybrids from ever appearing in open lobbies.
killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
- 1,460
- England
I agree with him.
In that, if we had engine and drivetrain conversions, along with wheel width and offset, I'd say alot of the people with hybrids (not all of them make them themselves), wouldn't have them anymore.
As far as I can see, most of the hybrids that are worth having are things that would be possible with these features.
The rest of the silly million horsepower cars etc are only used by kids, or once to see what they're like.
If I were ever to learn how to hybrid, it would be for 2JZ swaps etc.
But I suppose I don't agree, because it would still go on with the 13 year old smart kids that discover these things are possible.
I had a lag switch on socom on ps2, I was young and silly.
I wouldn't do it now, unless faffing about with mates in a private lobby etc.
- 1,762
- London
- haroldinho41
I think it's virtually impossible to facilitate hacking and hacked cars alongside the often very competitive, often very serious online aspect of the game, and as the majority of online GT6 players seem to be outraged by hacking I think PD have no choice but to ban hackers.
I understand where he's coming from to an extent but I have a feeling that no matter how many positive features Gran Turismo add to the game (and I'm not saying that they've added loads of great stuff lately btw) people will still be hacking the game because they want something that isn't offered.
To counteract modded karts in GT5 they added shifter karts, to counteract stance hacking they added rim diameter adjustments (which I know is only part of the stance/wheel realism issue), to counteract respray hacking they made more cars paintable as well as adding base models, and yet hacking will probably be just as prevalent as it was on GT5, if not more so.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
This part is true. Anyone that thinks that PD need only add engine swaps and tranny swaps and that kind of stuff is kidding themselves if they think the exact same stuff isn't going to continue right on. Some will always want something bigger, faster, lighter, more powerful, etc. etc. etc. These are two separate issues and hopefully PD knows this because if not, they'll give us some more modding ability in GT7 without tightening up the checks and balances and we'll be right back where we are now.
- 1,460
- England
No matter where you go in life, whatever sport, there will be cheating or dishonesty.
Some people just want to win.
Doesn't matter how or why.
I had my 7 year old nephew come round the other day, at one point during some GT6 time, he asked for 0 laps, under the impression that it would mean he automatically won.
He didn't care how he won, just that he did.
Some people never lose this mentality.
Some people will go to great lengths, and actually put more effort than winning properly, into cheating sometimes. I have been astounded at some of the stuff I've seen in various different scenarios over the years.
As @FarSideX said, hybrids exist by taking advantage of holes in the system.
Until there are no holes in the system, there will always be cheating/exploitation. In any sense.
Ninja edit
And there will always be holes.
Some people just want to win.
Doesn't matter how or why.
I had my 7 year old nephew come round the other day, at one point during some GT6 time, he asked for 0 laps, under the impression that it would mean he automatically won.
He didn't care how he won, just that he did.
Some people never lose this mentality.
Some people will go to great lengths, and actually put more effort than winning properly, into cheating sometimes. I have been astounded at some of the stuff I've seen in various different scenarios over the years.
As @FarSideX said, hybrids exist by taking advantage of holes in the system.
Until there are no holes in the system, there will always be cheating/exploitation. In any sense.
Ninja edit
And there will always be holes.
- 2,817
- Lincoln
- Victory_Reign93
- Linthium Reign
- 1,762
- London
- haroldinho41
Wouldn't surprise me if someone hacked GT6 and showed up in a lobby with overpowered X1 going by the name 'NEO' and ends up crashing the system.
Should be the plot of the upcoming GT film really. Neo in a hacked X1 being pursued around the Nurburgring by fifteen Kazunori Yamauchis in jet black GT-Rs.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
In a general sense you're right, but most hybriders aren't out to win by cheating, at least in my experience, they just want to mess around with cars, see what they can do and are very obvious about it. A guy shows up in a drag race with 3000 hp it's kind of hard to hide. I'm sure it's been done, guys have bent the rules and gotten into poorly regulated lobbies but it's rare to see that reported even in GT5. Most hybrids were blatantly obvious.
But once again, I don't see how some simple spec checks won't alleviate most of the problems. Why is it even possible to get a 100,000 hp car into a lobby, why isn't there a hidden limit of whatever the max HP is for all cars? How does a 4wd NSX Type R 02' get onto the track? We know it's not 4wd so why isn't there a drivetrain layout spec check? We already know they have the capability of spotting and fixing hybrids, they did it in GT5 with a download spec check of sorts, why haven't we had a download for this version of the game yet. 90% of the cars are the same, the hybrids I'm aware of are the same types of hybrids from GT5.
- 10,456
- United States
- WrecklessAbandon
My 2 cents.
Modding and playing offline: See no reason why anyone would care.
Modding and playing online: Asking for trouble.
Anyone that doesn't understand the latter hasn't ever had to deal with constant douche-baggary while taking a game seriously.
Modding and playing offline: See no reason why anyone would care.
Modding and playing online: Asking for trouble.
Anyone that doesn't understand the latter hasn't ever had to deal with constant douche-baggary while taking a game seriously.
killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
Well we can thank all the people in the world that give out participation medals for loosing.Having played a very high level of hockey during my youth and coaching it for many years we as a society have created the "I want it without having to work for it generation".
- 46
- Canada
Unfortunatly I find myself agreeing with @nasanu
You don't need to check transmission gear ratios, you only need check for example like this:
69' Corvette max 5 speed - Yes or No - Done.
There is nothing to be gained by swapping one 5 speed for another, only be adding another gear. GT transmissions are plenty adjustable to keep any car in the preferred rpm range in every gear.
I'd even argue the same with engine swaps and only check for max power and max torque, unless there's an identifier of some kind that goes with engine. I'm not saying to allow engine swaps to go unchecked, I'm saying lets take the easily identifiable hybrids out of the game first, with the simple and easy fixes and checks, and work on the harder stuff as time goes by.
I say again, there's no excuse for a 1550+ HP car to ever get into a lobby whether HP is limited by the host or not. Some simple max/min parameters and simple spec checks could eliminate almost all the hybrids from ever appearing in open lobbies.
I wouldn't use hashs, you are the one that suggested it. I was just answering your post as to why they don't.
If all you can say is test something else then my point has been completely missed. It doesn't matter what they test, the math is is same and the end result is the same.
Gran Turismo is called a driving simulator for a reason. The software is build like a simulator rather than a game. The cars are made up in far more detail than the tuning section of the game alludes to. This could be why you mistakenly think there are just a few parts.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
So you are saying that the game cannot check if the hybrid 69' Vette I'm trying to get into a lobby has a 5 or a 6 speed (5 is the maximum in the tuning menu) and if it has a 5 speed let me in and if it has a 6 speed, punch me in the virtual face?
If I'm entering my 4000 HP GT-R, the game can't have a blanket limit of 1500ish HP and not allow it into the lobby?
You're saying these specific things won't work? I'm obviously not a programmer nor a rocket surgeon, but these seem to me to be simple Yes/No answers (as far as the game is concerned).
- 10,456
- United States
- WrecklessAbandon
Of course it can check hp, wt, pp, etc.
Unless you can modify those numbers to reflect inaccurate readings... Just a thought.
- 6,318
- West Virginia
- HBR-Roadhog
- HBR Roadhog
I do not see any reason why those types of tests would not be simple to do, the HP test should already be there. They need to add a few more but I think they should not add the tests to the lobby instead they should add them to the main game. How exactly I don't know as I have never looked at the data structure but it would be far better to test for invalid cars locally and set a flag that will not allow the user to go online at all if they have any hacked cars in their garage. Much better to have the penalty check at game startup than every time someone tries to enter a race online.
- 46
- Canada
I have tried several times to answer this, to me the questions in response are always the same. We can not exhaust all the possibilities in our lifetime. Most my friends are engineers, I usually just have to say the equation is exponential and I am done explaining, this makes it hard to explain things to others sometimes.
So you either do not understand exponential mathematics or you are just trying to give me a hard time.
HP, there already is a limit to HP as you describe, it's 1,479, turn it on. I hope that will be that last time that gets asked.
PD will block some of the current things with tests like you suggest, but it is impossible to block them all. Even if they could the test can simply be bypassed.
I hope they continue banning those that ruin other peoples lobbies, but at the same time wish people were not so quick to report others for doing things that don't affect them whatsoever.
