Senna's 97t too much faster than real life. Pole time achieved w/ SS tires

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thash1127

19
United States
WA
During the 1985 Italian Grand Prix weekend the fastest recorded speed was 207mph set by a Brabham. On GT6 the 97t achieves a top speed of about 220 mph with default settings. To make the game more realistic I did the following changes:

POWER LIMITOR: 74% (achieving a top speed of under 204 mph)

TIRES: Sports Soft (Front and Rear)

DOWNFORCE: Front 900 (40%), Rear 1360 (36%)

DRIVETRAIN: Minor changes to "Initial Torque" and "Breaking Sensitivity" for personal driving style

MAINTENANCE: Car wash, Oil Change and approx. 350 miles on engine. NOT INSTALLED: "improve car rigidy"

The best lap time I've achieved so far is a 1' 24.848, I put some dust in the air but no excessive curb hopping. Lap time achieved in Garage> Test Drive> Monza '80s> "Real" wet surface and track edge> ABS '1' is the only driver aid.
I do not know the top speeds of the Lotus 97t on Senna's pole lap, under 204 is a guess, but this is definitely more realistic and very challenging but achievable at the same time!

Source of information: http://counter-x.net/f1/1985/12/index.html
 
ghostrider135
@Ettick Nope Senna didn't have ABS :), What exactly is the point of this thread anyways ? A game issue perchance if so it can be moved, closed or merged with another apt thread, Perhaps its a way to say look how good I am, If so well I wouldn't even be impressed if you won GT:A so moot point.
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He's making the point that as it's given to us in the challenges, the car is unrealistically grippy, with unrealistically high top speeds. And he's correct about that.
 
ghostrider135
@Ettick Nope Senna didn't have ABS :), What exactly is the point of this thread anyways ? A game issue perchance if so it can be moved, closed or merged with another apt thread, Perhaps its a way to say look how good I am, If so well I wouldn't even be impressed if you won GT:A so moot point.
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I believe this is the feedback forum, no? And the post in question is feedback.
 
I might try these settings. The car stock is definitely way too easy to drive. Just look at how much he was sliding about at monaco in this thing, GT6 version is far too grippy.
 
Senna didn't use ABS, and at Monza this is an important factor as you'll be putting a lot of load on the brakes at the Rettifilo and Ascari. Also, Senna had to worry about not crashing at 200 kph. On other circuits this may not be too much of a factor, but at Monza? It makes a world of difference. And the tires? They are unrealistic by today standards, in 1985 they would've been pure sci-fi.

Try again without ABS and on RH tires, I'd be surprised if you managed to beat de Angelis's time of 1:26.004 in one lap. Oh, and keep in mind that in real life if you crashed at 300 in a barrier you were likely to die a horrible death.
 
I don't think the car is too easy to drive, I think it has too much grip. There is a big difference between "easy to drive" and "too much grip". The car in acceleration, deceleration and cornering speeds is far too fast, it's probably in the region of 5-10 seconds faster than an actual 80s car, or pretty close to the speed of a modern F1 car, in game.

I don't think it's very easy to drive though, it's not very intuitive from my point of view... I beat the gold challenges by memory, rather than by feel, and the car is definitely pretty hairy to drive fast... But it just drives a lot faster than it should. No surprise in Gran Turismo though, that is the case in the majority of situations regardless of the car.

I did not use ABS, not using ABS doesn't really slow you down much, if at all. ABS off only slows you down if you make a mistake... Mistakes are likely though, there is not much between "great" and "oh **** completely locked up and sliding into wall", and there is nothing to help you judge that point, it's like taking a shot in the dark.
 
There is something not right with the car in my opinion, it is too fast, and the AI that drive it really needs some work too.

I've been running the 97T at 80's Monza tonight in arcade mode, professional mode and aggression to 10. I used comfort hards with all aids and abs off, and a DS3 controller. I was still able to run in the 1:25's while being held up by the ridiculously slow AI, who were on racing hards, often overtaking them around the outside of the corners by +20mph faster.

None of that should be possible.
 
Only a few tenths from achieving Senna's time with NO DRIVER AIDS, abs OFF, Sports soft tires. I will upload the replay if it's this week hahaha, very hard with my settings shown at the top of this thread, abs is strange though. My car handles so well through Ascari-after the breaking is done, weird... cause im not touching the brake and i sense improved handling?
P.S. driving with NO ABS means you want to lower the brake strength and brake sooner. "Bigbazz" said it well, no abs punishes you hard when you make mistakes. Driving fast is harder at first but i can potentially go faster without abs than with it, much harder though.
 
Does anyone know if in '85 they made refuelling stops? And what kind of tire strategy did they use? I ask because I did a full race length of 80s Monza last night with my brother and I had to make two stops for fuel. Is this realistic? I was being careful to avoid high revs etc...
 
thash1127
Only a few tenths from achieving Senna's time with NO DRIVER AIDS, abs OFF, Sports soft tires. I will upload the replay if it's this week hahaha, very hard with my settings shown at the top of this thread, abs is strange though. My car handles so well through Ascari-after the breaking is done, weird... cause im not touching the brake and i sense improved handling?
P.S. driving with NO ABS means you want to lower the brake strength and brake sooner. "Bigbazz" said it well, no abs punishes you hard when you make mistakes. Driving fast is harder at first but i can potentially go faster without abs than with it, much harder though.
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I don't know about the Lotus 97T with all aids turned off (yet) but I found it so much easier to achieve gold in the F3 car with all aids turned off. I even did it with a DS3. I can imagine that the lower the ABS and TCS is, the faster the car will go as long as you hit the right lines at the right speed.
 
watchclockgit
Does anyone know if in '85 they made refuelling stops? And what kind of tire strategy did they use? I ask because I did a full race length of 80s Monza last night with my brother and I had to make two stops for fuel. Is this realistic? I was being careful to avoid high revs etc...
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What was the tire/fuel depletion set to?

I was a baby back then so taking this from Wikipedia. In 1985 refuelling was banned at that time. Cars could carry up to 220 litres of fuel, 30 less than the previous regulations. Drivers had to conserve fuel; Senna and others lost out at Imola by running out of fuel a few laps before the end.
 
well i agree on the tires, they should have introduced a set of 1985 slicks, but the car is fine as you go with the qualifying engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_97T

i know wiki is an unreliable source, but my father mentioned that the manufactures often spread rumors of the qualy engines power output way under their real performance lvls

just remember the brabham bmw turbo engines with 1000kw+.

so all the authentic fans just downtune to ~1000bhp/671kw/912ps and get some sports medium on or so and then try to get 1.11.5 times on brand hatch which was the actual race fastest time :)
 
Car default setup is "easy" and "gripy" so everyone (15 year old boy or 70year old grandpa ) could achieve at least silver and get their reward car and suits .I'm sure PD could thinker handling and make challenge impossible for 99,99% of folks. What then ,if you could not achieve that record and only few top lb guys could do it ? Would it make it more realistic?

With unfortunate absence of AI difficulty leveling you can't make AI go faster , but you can always restrict yourself. Put less grippy (comfort) tires and/or detune engine (hot lap hp/race hp?) and make field more even . You're still too fast ? Use cockpit view ,do not touch any other car (irl aero damage) and play with G27 and shifter instead pressing buttons.
 
I think the first step toward realism with the 97T would be to remove ALL of the downforce possible. There's no way, by comparison with like cars in GT6, the 97T should have more downforce than the Formula GT and equal to the Red Bull '14 Standard. Especially on the Front.

Take all the downforce off the car, apply Race Hard tires, use no Aides (which means ABS 0) and let it rip. Doubtful anyone but the aliens could get the times needed.

RedBaron
This is just sad, PD can't recreate particular car and player has to compensate for more realistic experience. This is problem of almost all cars in the game and for me it smells by quantity over quality...
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Not at all. If they fully recreated the Senna Challenges, the outrage would be monumental.

The GT Series is caught between in the middle because it is such a popular series. Make it extremely difficult and the outcry is immense. Or make it accessible to all...and the outcry is immense.

Striking the delicate balance, as they've tried very carefully to do here with the Senna challenges, is even met with foolish criticism.

See this post for reference.
 
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watchclockgit
Does anyone know if in '85 they made refuelling stops? And what kind of tire strategy did they use? I ask because I did a full race length of 80s Monza last night with my brother and I had to make two stops for fuel. Is this realistic? I was being careful to avoid high revs etc...
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Originally F1 races were a minimum of 300 miles and they used mixed alcohol fuels - the longer races and poorer consumption required fuel stops. From memory I think the change was made in 1956. When the cars were restricted to petrol the races were shortened to a minimum of 200 miles because of fears that without the cooling effects of alcohol fuels the engines would not last for 300 miles - fuel stops were not necessary and the cars used to run without pitting. BMW re-introduced fuel stops when they ran a four cylinder turbo car, but this was not originally because of fuel consumption - it enabled the car to run lighter on a half load and hence achieve better lap times. BMW got the pitstops down to an incredibly short time - refuelling was quicker then, but very dangerous.

The current F1 pitstops are not necessary, but were created to give a guaranteed minimum TV airtime to sponsors logos and spice up the show - without them the race would be turned back into a procession which is what we had in the 1970's before the turbo era.

To use the 97T realistically turn down the power from the qualifying setting to about 800bhp.

To all those who are criticising the car - personally I think it sounds and drives great and I say congrats to PD - don't make the mistake of thinking that because something is difficult it will be enjoyable - most of life's pleasures are not difficult.
 
GregOr1971
Car default setup is "easy" and "gripy" so everyone (15 year old boy or 70year old grandpa ) could achieve at least silver and get their reward car and suits .I'm sure PD could thinker handling and make challenge impossible for 99,99% of folks. What then ,if you could not achieve that record and only few top lb guys could do it ? Would it make it more realistic?
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This one-size-must-fit-all way of thinking is partly what's killing this franchise. We can't pi$$ off the casual fans so everything must be dumbed down to their level. It's such a simple problem to solve.
 
I have the realism issue with PD in general. If you gauge by the fastest time round Nurburgring, why should any production car be allowed to run faster than 7.xx (don't remember exact time) at the ring?

And if any car was able to go faster, than PD should be able to update that car so that it can do it’s verified time.

The thing to remember is this this is a game. And as such, it's like "RedBarron" says "Make it extremely difficult and the outcry is immense. Or make it accessible to all...and the outcry is immense." I remember many saying the license test in GT series (esp, 2 & 3) were too hard. Kaz and PD can't make the game hard core or Sony will pull the rug from under them. Still it would be interesting if PD made every car handle true to life.

If the GT series was hard core, would it be more popular (Especially) on a console? We would certainly be able to find the future Senna's much quicker. I say go for it PD, create two disks. One for casual (arcade) players, and one for that come with a warning telling users that this is a realistic sim and cars will have or not have driving aids/brakes/power steering and the like that is appropriate to each car in real life.

Trust me, even our alien drivers would have to work to handle F1 cars. And those cars have electronic driving aids as standard equipment. So sometimes by removing driving aids, we unwittingly make the game un-realistic. Cars made before a certain date should not be equipped with ABS or other electronic aids unless they have been modified for present day racing.

This is how GT2 was made, and I feel it’s the best solution for the game going forward. But just think of the work for the already understaffed PD folks. Two games to manage, update and fix bugs.
 
Lewis_Hamilton_
What was the tire/fuel depletion set to?

I was a baby back then so taking this from Wikipedia. In 1985 refuelling was banned at that time. Cars could carry up to 220 litres of fuel, 30 less than the previous regulations. Drivers had to conserve fuel; Senna and others lost out at Imola by running out of fuel a few laps before the end.
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Depletion on normal. Thanks for looking that up. This makes me think that PD setup the car in qualifying trim, I might try again with the power limiter, again using conservation tactics and see if I can get the 51 laps done on one tank.
 
Sick Cylinder
Originally F1 races were a minimum of 300 miles and they used mixed alcohol fuels - the longer races and poorer consumption required fuel stops. From memory I think the change was made in 1956. When the cars were restricted to petrol the races were shortened to a minimum of 200 miles because of fears that without the cooling effects of alcohol fuels the engines would not last for 300 miles - fuel stops were not necessary and the cars used to run without pitting. BMW re-introduced fuel stops when they ran a four cylinder turbo car, but this was not originally because of fuel consumption - it enabled the car to run lighter on a half load and hence achieve better lap times. BMW got the pitstops down to an incredibly short time - refuelling was quicker then, but very dangerous.

The current F1 pitstops are not necessary, but were created to give a guaranteed minimum TV airtime to sponsors logos and spice up the show - without them the race would be turned back into a procession which is what we had in the 1970's before the turbo era.

To use the 97T realistically turn down the power from the qualifying setting to about 800bhp.

To all those who are criticising the car - personally I think it sounds and drives great and I say congrats to PD - don't make the mistake of thinking that because something is difficult it will be enjoyable - most of life's pleasures are not difficult.
Click to expand...

That's very interesting, thanks. I really want to see if with power limiter I can cover full distance without pitting - probably with SS
 
If I had to guess I'd say that the main reason why it's so much faster isn't because it has too much power, but rather that the air resistance in the game is too low. Reducing power corrects the top speed, but then you get a problem with the acceleration being too slow, so attempting to get it realistic is hopeless until the air resistance is fixed.
 
Blood*Specter
I have the realism issue with PD in general. If you gauge by the fastest time round Nurburgring, why should any production car be allowed to run faster than 7.xx (don't remember exact time) at the ring?

And if any car was able to go faster, than PD should be able to update that car so that it can do it’s verified time.

The thing to remember is this this is a game. And as such, it's like "RedBarron" says "Make it extremely difficult and the outcry is immense. Or make it accessible to all...and the outcry is immense." I remember many saying the license test in GT series (esp, 2 & 3) were too hard. Kaz and PD can't make the game hard core or Sony will pull the rug from under them. Still it would be interesting if PD made every car handle true to life.

If the GT series was hard core, would it be more popular (Especially) on a console? We would certainly be able to find the future Senna's much quicker. I say go for it PD, create two disks. One for casual (arcade) players, and one for that come with a warning telling users that this is a realistic sim and cars will have or not have driving aids/brakes/power steering and the like that is appropriate to each car in real life.

Trust me, even our alien drivers would have to work to handle F1 cars. And those cars have electronic driving aids as standard equipment. So sometimes by removing driving aids, we unwittingly make the game un-realistic. Cars made before a certain date should not be equipped with ABS or other electronic aids unless they have been modified for present day racing.

This is how GT2 was made, and I feel it’s the best solution for the game going forward. But just think of the work for the already understaffed PD folks. Two games to manage, update and fix bugs.
Click to expand...
All good points, but I don't think the solution is that difficult.
1. Realistic physics as the base of the game including suspension modeling, tuning, tire models, dynamic car physics etc.
2. Driver aids/tire choices to make the driving easier for those that are less skilled or just want to toot around and have fun, without caring about realistic physics.
3. TT's, Seasonals etc. all released with at least 2 versions, one allowing all aids with perhaps one compound softer and a "hardcore" version of the same TT, with realistic tire compounds and difficult target times, pre-tested by good GT pilots to ensure validity. The "hardcore" version could include only those driving aids available on the real car, so if it didn't have ABS, then you don't get ABS, but if traction control was available then it would be available. No SRF ever of course.
4. Multiple career modes with difficulty sliders.

There is more but you get the idea. This can all be done within one game, but so long as PD is stuck in the one-size-fits-all-because-console mentality, you're only going to get various versions of GT1-6 going forward.
 

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