The new AI - your thoughts

[ironman44321]

Oh, you actually think that they're going to improve the AI.

I said I couldn't imagine what they would be doing. I can't imagine PD actually doing serious work to improve the AI, because that would result in us getting decent AI. It's not rocket surgery. If they haven't managed it in the last ten years, I don't see why they'd start now.

Same argument as the sounds really. There's nothing holding them back if they wanted to do sounds or AI well. Other than their irrational need to have the shiniest cars with the most polys in the world, and everything else must be secondary to that. They simply dinna have the power, Cap'n.


But you're another optimist, I see. You can join this guy.

I never said I thought they were going to, I said that they might be tweaking it before they release B-spec. It was a guess not an expectation.

Well, considering that the AI in these seasonal events is a little bit different than what we've seen in the past they obviously have been doing something. It's one thing to be pessimistic but it's another entirely to completely ignore something that's already happened for the sake of being a pessimist.

Oh, and "rocket surgery"? I'll repeat, are you okay?

 

[Johnnypenso]

No matter how you slice it, so long as it's rolling starts with the leader 20+ seconds ahead of you, you simply can't have quality AI that runs a consistent, fast pace. If they were decently skilled you would never catch them with the short sprint race formula the entire game is designed around. In a 5 lap race for example, if it takes you 4 laps to catch the leader, he'd have to instantly be 5 seconds a lap faster than you to be competitive and that would be silly and artificial.

 

[Imari]

Oh, and "rocket surgery"? I'll repeat, are you okay?

Clearly you haven't heard that one before. I'll explain it for the slow amongst us.

There are two common forms of that phrase; "It's not rocket science" and "It's not brain surgery".

The joke is that by combining the two you can come up with something that's moderately ludicrous, but still passes under most people's radar if you say it quickly enough. "Brain science" obviously doesn't work as well as "rocket surgery"; brain science sounds like you just couldn't remember the word for neuroscience, whereas rocket surgery is oddly specific enough to make people go "wait, what?" if they catch it.

So I'm just fine, you're just not keeping up.

Well, considering that the AI in these seasonal events is a little bit different than what we've seen in the past they obviously have been doing something.

If you're going to take the words at face value, then yes, they have been doing stuff. Eating, excreting, probably a lot of smoking in Kaz's case.

Have they been improving the AI (you know, the topic of the thread)? No.

It's one thing to be pessimistic but it's another entirely to completely ignore something that's already happened for the sake of being a pessimist.

They did something to the AI between GT5 and GT6 as well. It didn't make it better. I'd rather they'd done nothing at all.

Consumers are at the end of the process, we're only affected by results. PD can work on the AI until the cows come home, but if it doesn't result in an improved experience for the consumer I'm not sure why any of those consumers should care.

So far I've see more of the same in the latest seasonal AI. They've changed something. It's still not any better. It's still doing more or less the same things it's done for the last ten or so years, just at different places on the track.

I'll count it as improved AI when they have something that can keep up with a player that's in the top 20% of leaderboards in equivalent machinery.

 

[jimipitbull]

Clearly you haven't heard that one before. I'll explain it for the slow amongst us.

There are two common forms of that phrase; "It's not rocket science" and "It's not brain surgery".

The joke is that by combining the two you can come up with something that's moderately ludicrous, but still passes under most people's radar if you say it quickly enough. "Brain science" obviously doesn't work as well as "rocket surgery"; brain science sounds like you just couldn't remember the word for neuroscience, whereas rocket surgery is oddly specific enough to make people go "wait, what?" if they catch it.

Rocket brains has his own identity

 

[ironman44321]

Clearly you haven't heard that one before. I'll explain it for the slow amongst us.

There are two common forms of that phrase; "It's not rocket science" and "It's not brain surgery".

The joke is that by combining the two you can come up with something that's moderately ludicrous, but still passes under most people's radar if you say it quickly enough. "Brain science" obviously doesn't work as well as "rocket surgery"; brain science sounds like you just couldn't remember the word for neuroscience, whereas rocket surgery is oddly specific enough to make people go "wait, what?" if they catch it.

So I'm just fine, you're just not keeping up.

I'm not questioning what, I'm questioning why.

If you're going to take the words at face value, then yes, they have been doing stuff. Eating, excreting, probably a lot of smoking in Kaz's case.

Have they been improving the AI (you know, the topic of the thread)? No.

That's funny, I could have sworn that the topic was that the AI in the seasonal events had changed. Although I do recall that a good number of people found this version of the AI to be more fun. But I guess being more fun isn't an improvement.

Consumers are at the end of the process, we're only affected by results. PD can work on the AI until the cows come home, but if it doesn't result in an improved experience for the consumer I'm not sure why any of those consumers should care.

Read above^

So far I've see more of the same in the latest seasonal AI. They've changed something. It's still not any better. It's still doing more or less the same things it's done for the last ten or so years, just at different places on the track.

I'll count it as improved AI when they have something that can keep up with a player that's in the top 20% of leaderboards in equivalent machinery.

You do realize that making the AI faster wouldn't necessarily make them better correct? dim, rubber banding AI that can go around the track really quickly aren't really any better than dim, rubber banding AI that can't. It's still dumb AI, just dumb AI turned up to 11.

 

[Imari]

You do realize that making the AI faster wouldn't necessarily make them better correct? dim, rubber banding AI that can go around the track really quickly aren't really any better than dim, rubber banding AI that can't. It's still dumb AI, just dumb AI turned up to 11.

Any AI that is using rubberbanding is by definition not in equivalent machinery. Rubberbanding actively modifies either the characteristics of the AI vehicle, the physics that they're driving under, or the actual control the AI has over the machine by forcing them to drive slower/faster.

Any AI that uses rubberbanding is right out to start with, IMO. Humans don't work like that, and neither should the AI.

That's funny, I could have sworn that the topic was that the AI in the seasonal events had changed. Although I do recall that a good number of people found this version of the AI to be more fun. But I guess being more fun isn't an improvement.

Good for them. Honestly, if they're having fun then that's great.

I'd question what exactly it was that they found more fun about this version of the AI. I'd also question whether the placebo effect plays any part. There are people out there that will find any change to be positive, simply because they're so positive about GT in general. The reverse is also true, some people will find any change to be negative.

I haven't really noticed a big change either way with this "new" AI. It's different, but it's not providing better racing and it's not any faster. If other people have different criteria by which they judge the AI to be fun, I'd like to hear about them.

 

[Master__Shake_]

The new AI reminds me of pushing Stig too hard in B-Spec in GT5. Not necessarily overtake aggression, but pushing harder against the limitations of the cars they are generated in. Yes they can be faster, and yes they can do it without wiping out in corners, but AI is there to be a beatable opponent and not an unstoppable computer arch-enemy.

If they were to implement a numeric difficulty rating from 1 through 10, the new "hard" difficulty seasonal would be around 4 or 5. Regular offline would be a measly 1 or 2. Without making it impossible for non-dedicated circuit racers to gold a seasonal, they wouldn't be able to exceed 8 or so. That being said, it would be nice if they could add the option for offline races to select the difficulty while increasing payout for harder difficulties or using cars under the PP limit of the race.

 

[ironman44321]

Any AI that is using rubberbanding is by definition not in equivalent machinery. Rubberbanding actively modifies either the characteristics of the AI vehicle, the physics that they're driving under, or the actual control the AI has over the machine by forcing them to drive slower/faster.

Any AI that uses rubberbanding is right out to start with, IMO. Humans don't work like that, and neither should the AI.

Sure it is. The rubber banding just changes how quickly the AI takes the car around the track. The car is still the same car.

But my main point is that simply making them faster doesn't mean they are better. A grid of mindless drones that simply follow a predetermined line around the track over and over again without any variation or comprehension for what's going on around them is still bad AI whether they're lapping at 10 mph or turning in perfect lap after perfect lap.

Good for them. Honestly, if they're having fun then that's great.

I'd question what exactly it was that they found more fun about this version of the AI. I'd also question whether the placebo effect plays any part. There are people out there that will find any change to be positive, simply because they're so positive about GT in general. The reverse is also true, some people will find any change to be negative.

I haven't really noticed a big change either way with this "new" AI. It's different, but it's not providing better racing and it's not any faster. If other people have different criteria by which they judge the AI to be fun, I'd like to hear about them.

I'm sure that this version of the AI is not any better on a technical level, but for some people just having AI that don't seem to just merry go round around the track is an improvement.

 

[Rotorist]

AI in Suzuka is crazy fast. Most crazy than fast though ... in Willow Springs it is more difficult than in the off-line events, but not fast enough till you approach them. Then, they get better but not much.

 

[Imari]

Sure it is. The rubber banding just changes how quickly the AI takes the car around the track. The car is still the same car.

It's the same car, but the AI isn't allowed the same freedom of action as the player. By the same machinery, what I mean is that the AI should be able to do the same things that the player can.

Rubberbanded AI can't, as seen by the times when the AI will pull out to pass and then simply stop alongside the player. It's not equal, because the human equivalent would be the other player having a gun to their head being told what they can and cannot do, instead of letting them drive to the best of their ability.

I'm not sure what the best term for that would be, but that's what I mean by equal machinery. Same car, same rules, same everything.

But my main point is that simply making them faster doesn't mean they are better. A grid of mindless drones that simply follow a predetermined line around the track over and over again without any variation or comprehension for what's going on around them is still bad AI whether they're lapping at 10 mph or turning in perfect lap after perfect lap.

Oh, certainly.

But the racecraft of the GT AI isn't actually that bad, mostly. They brake check a bit, but they're mostly pretty aware of what's going on around them as long as you give them enough time to notice what you're doing.

I don't really have a problem with their racecraft. It's acceptable. The problem they have is that they simply can't keep up.

So you're right, it's not just about having fast AI. But in GT, I think the other areas are fine, at least for now. They could be made better, but I think the one area that would most improve the AI is simply to turn the speed up.

An added benefit is that a lot of other problems, like the mid-corner braking, just have to go away if they're faster. They can't be quick and be braking all the time, they'll have to be smoother.

I'm sure that this version of the AI is not any better on a technical level, but for some people just having AI that don't seem to just merry go round around the track is an improvement.

Maybe so. If what was lacking for some people was the feeling that there's humans behind the wheel, then maybe this version of AI does better for them. It still doesn't for me, because I can still see how the mistakes are failures of the AI, but I can see how it could for some people.

 

[ironman44321]

It's the same car, but the AI isn't allowed the same freedom of action as the player. By the same machinery, what I mean is that the AI should be able to do the same things that the player can.

Rubberbanded AI can't, as seen by the times when the AI will pull out to pass and then simply stop alongside the player. It's not equal, because the human equivalent would be the other player having a gun to their head being told what they can and cannot do, instead of letting them drive to the best of their ability.

I'm not sure what the best term for that would be, but that's what I mean by equal machinery. Same car, same rules, same everything.

I think equal playing field fits that the best. But I do see what you're getting at.

Oh, certainly.

But the racecraft of the GT AI isn't actually that bad, mostly. They brake check a bit, but they're mostly pretty aware of what's going on around them as long as you give them enough time to notice what you're doing.

I don't really have a problem with their racecraft. It's acceptable. The problem they have is that they simply can't keep up.

So you're right, it's not just about having fast AI. But in GT, I think the other areas are fine, at least for now. They could be made better, but I think the one area that would most improve the AI is simply to turn the speed up.

An added benefit is that a lot of other problems, like the mid-corner braking, just have to go away if they're faster. They can't be quick and be braking all the time, they'll have to be smoother.



Maybe so. If what was lacking for some people was the feeling that there's humans behind the wheel, then maybe this version of AI does better for them. It still doesn't for me, because I can still see how the mistakes are failures of the AI, but I can see how it could for some people.

Yeah that's fair enough. Actually, reading this got me thinking a little bit about the rubber banding. But that might be for another thread.

 

[jimmywizz]

my two pence worth: so I found the first two races a breeze, running around 50pp lower than the limit. no surprise it says beginner and intermediate. onto Sazuka and the expert race. I'm having a blast! running a tuned 458 at around 590pp, but with standerd breaks and clutch. To me it feels like the AI are actually in it to win it, fighting for position, cutting me off and over shooting corners. some people seem to be complaining that the AI are ramming them, I haven't had this problem myself, so my question is are people being rammed by AI running with racing breaks and triple/ double plate clutch upgrades?

 

[HKS racer]

They are in this event. The AI is clearly worse at driving, at least in most other events, it can keep the cars on the track. This is GT6, not a PC sim, they have different programming and resources, thus you cannot compare the situations as being the same.

Please not again with the same old cliche "GT6 is not a PC sim bla bla bla different resources bla bla bla."
Computer and console gaming managed decent AI before the year 2000.

I have just found this video channel having all 3 races (here is the Suzuka race). But I am sure there are more out there on Youtube:

Thanks for the reply.
Commenting the video I can only say, incredibily they manage to make AI worse.
I'm going to avoid this like pest.

 

[HKS racer]

Double.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I got rammed by a Viper in the expert event...
The AI were making real-world mistakes of which I'd never seen-running wide and going off track. When completing this race, there was a freight train of 4 cars fighting for top spot along with me, and what happened was quite interesting. When coming up to the hairpin before Spoon, everyone was bunched up and then I completely muffed up going out of the corner. The TommyKaira that was leading the pack sped off, so I felt pissed at myself for making the mistake. I caught up to him on the last lap, but that wasn't it-I had a brilliant exit off Spoon corner, so it was a drag race leading up to the big sweeper. I managed to pass him after he slowed down a tiny bit just before entering the sweeper. I couldn't believe how tight it was so close to the finish!

 

[tomcat66]

... I managed to pass him after he slowed down a tiny bit just before entering the sweeper. I couldn't believe how tight it was so close to the finish!

Sounds like you enjoyed that race

 

[Conquerer]

I like the AI making mistakes, but I think they made them way too frequent and it actually hinders your driving as well. I was turning into Suzuka's hairpin and an LP670 dove down my inside at twice my braking speed, nailed me and went off into the sand trap. Only I received a ramming penalty because I was turning to the left (which the game reads as me hitting him). Ridiculous.

And it's already been mentioned but PD will never get it right until they eliminate the catch the rabbit scenario. Maybe they should watch their own opening videos so they can learn to create the game they've advertised -- multiple cars racing within the same 10-20 meters, something you literally never see in GT6. Instead it's like you've joined a race already 10 laps in and have to make up lost ground out of your control. What a farce.

 

[tomcat66]

I just found another video of the Suzuka race. Here you can see a penalty given for a AI car crashing into the driver (lap 4). You can also witness a few AI drivers going offroad.

 

[Aquarelle]

I just found another video of the Suzuka race. Here you can see a penalty given for a AI car crashing into the driver (lap 4). You can also witness a few AI drivers going offroad.

@7:36

This is exactly what I was talking about. Reckless, stupid AI doesn't mean the AI has been improved and I don't see this kind of behaviour an improvement in any respect what so ever.

While it's certainly more entertaining than having them on rails following the same safe, slow conservative line; this is so far from an adequate solution that I can't begin to put it into words.

 

[JCH8r]

Well, it's better than it was on Expert level, and I like things to get better. And by better I mean it's more difficult to beat and more unpredictable to race against. Is it perfect? No. I agree the format needs to be changed as it's just a chase race now, but ultimately: it's better.

Keep forging ahead PD.

 

[mister dog]

Until the races aren't catch the rabbit it's irrelevant to me. I want realistic style races, like the real world and pretty much every other realistic style racing game, including GT1 - 4.

Hear hear

 

[Aquarelle]

With the new A-spec seasonals out I figured it would be good to bring this thread back

This is from the Intermediate Non Racing Car Challenge on Apricot Hill - these are just examples from 3 laps on one corner.

First off we have the traditional over speed

Then the "Double over speed"

At least they're polite enough to wait, even if they did smash into each other while parking like this

What's a little bumping between friends?

Remember when I said it feels like playing in your average public lobby? (That LFA hit me so hard I was launched, he barely braked at all)

Bonus round!!

So you brake hard in high speed sweepers, right?

 

[phil_75]

With the new seasonal events (https://www.gtplanet.net/new-gt6-seasonal-events-bring-a-spec-racing/) GT gives us a completely new AI. The AI drives much more aggressive than before.

Because the seasonal is only available until June 26 maybe this is some kind of test from Polyphony. To see how the community likes this AI. So I think it is a good idea to give them some feedback. Please give your thoughts about the new AI.

I think this is simply perfect. I had so much more fun with this AI. They are driving so hard that they even make some mistakes. You can see the AI cars crashing into barriers or going offroad. There is no rubberbanding at all. They race against you AND each other. I only wish I can activate this kind of AI in all other offline races.

Where does it say new AI?

I never noticed anything different either.

Placebo?

Same with todays seasonals, expert race the lead car slowed to a crawl on last lap.

Edit, i did see a couple of cars go off track but that hardly constitutes improved AI, if anything they are dumber now, they can't even stay on track.

 

[tomcat66]

Where does it say new AI?

I never noticed anything different either.

Placebo?

Same with todays seasonals, expert race the lead car slowed to a crawl on last lap.

Edit, i did see a couple of cars go off track but that hardly constitutes improved AI, if anything they are dumber now, they can't even stay on track.

I dont think that I did say that it is "improved" - I just called it "new". And beside more aggressive driving (including going off track and bumping into your car) there are some other changes too. Some of them are mentioned in various posts in this thread - observed by a lot of different drivers.

 

[Vegard]

Same old 🤬 AI, only with added J. Villeneuve braking algorithm. 👎

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Please not again with the same old cliche "GT6 is not a PC sim bla bla bla different resources bla bla bla."
Computer and console gaming managed decent AI before the year 2000.

Why the attitude?

I said different programming and different resources, different programming will end with different results even if the intial data input was the same, different resources means different amount of people and hours being dedicated to AI. What part of that is wrong or "bla bla bla cliche"?

If you have 10 people working months on AI, you're likely to have some decent AI. If you have one person working a couple of weeks on AI, you're not going to get the same quality result. Point out any part of the entire GT series where the AI looks like it's had a decent amount of time and resources put into it.

You should not expect the same result with something when it has had different people working on it, a different amount of staff, with different targets and different policies for them to follow in their respectful studios, all while aiming the product to a different niche audience.

 

[CeeJay]

Good gosh I didn't realize the penalty system was in play with this aggressive AI. My excitement tanked when I took the hairpin at Suzuka and got slammed in the side and I got the 5 second penalty.. please turn this awful penalty system off!! I can tolerate stupid AI zipping around the track but to penalize me when they're the one slamming into my car just ruins it. I'm kind of looking forward to trying the seasonal events tonight. Wonder if the AI is still the same?

 

[TheProRacer]

One thought: "If I get rear ended one more time..."

 

[Scuderia Paul]

The Intermediate Event at Apricot Hill was frustrating as I kept getting rear-ended by an LF-A Nurburgring Package, while at Spa, the leader kept flying off as he was braking at 50m when doing 300kmh.

The AI is more aggressive but it feels they are out to get you. The flying off is made more ridiculous looking when they wait for the others to pass, even if there is a huge gap in which to rejoin, then trickle along before picking to race pace.

 

[vipahcheese]

It's simple, the A.I. isn't meant for GT6, it's meant for the BURNOUT series! Makes sense now, huh?