Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

What do you think of GT now?

  • Still the best there is!!!

    Votes: 309 61.6%

  • Screw GT! I'll play Forza now!

    Votes: 36 7.2%

  • It's going to be a nice battle.

    Votes: 136 27.1%

  • I'm still playing Pole Position

    Votes: 21 4.2%
  • Total voters
    502
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Kent
Well you're right about that... Although this could be a very good thing for PD...
If Japan itself takes to the Forza franchise I can garuntee PD will start working much harder than ever before to both innovate and create. I have no doubt that a strong FM2 success in Japan would bring both innovation and creation as well as imitation. :eek:

It's going to be interesting to see what GT will do in response if FM2 is a hit.
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With developement times of PDs games, i would hope that they have got their sights already firmly targeted on the direction they are going to take GT5, I dont feel that PD will deviate much from that vision regardless of what Forza achieves this time, however I think for GT6 they will be taking a much more detailed look at what the closing competition is doing!
Remember their was a time GT led the way and others followed, it may not be too long before GT becomes the chaser!:ouch:
 
I saw last FM2 trailer with Nurburgring. Sirs, that track in FM2, that's not Nurburgring, but some fantasy track. Too few bumps, trees are totally different from those around real track and sound from BMW V12 LM is exactly like GT4's buzzing. It's no competition for GT5 at all.
 
Forza might have a couple of things that GT could improve on (particularly engine sounds, and a few manufacturers)...
But overall, GT is still king: Forza is a flash in the pan, lacking depth.
 
Kent
One thing that bothers me though is the unfair comparisons... For example, the last anti-GT video posted showed some faults (like doughnuts, which although they don't matter to me, I can understand being upset over) but at the same time it showed faults that other games have.
For example, why be upset about GT spinning tires without changing your direction? Fact is, Forza 1 would spin your tires and move you just a touch off to one direction the same exact way time after time (just had fun with that yesterday in a Ferrari F40).
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As the creator of that video, I feel I should point out that in no way was it intended to put Forza in a positive light.

If you go back and watch the Enthusia follow-up video I think you'll find that wheelspin does in fact change your direction in that game. Just because the vast majority of sim-wannabe games don't include details like that doesn't mean that GT4 didn't have to, and it doesn't mean such details are impossible to find on a console game.

Kent
You just don't see as many anti-Forza videos as you do anti-GT.
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Give me an XBOX, a copy of Forza 1, and a night's worth of editing, and I'll show you how utterly pathetic it is.

Strictly physics-wise, GT4 blows Forza 1 out of the water. Coming from me, that means something.
 
RedBaron
I saw last FM2 trailer with Nurburgring. Sirs, that track in FM2, that's not Nurburgring, but some fantasy track. Too few bumps, trees are totally different from those around real track and sound from BMW V12 LM is exactly like GT4's buzzing. It's no competition for GT5 at all.
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I was thiking about the bumps, also. I know that there are bunch of members here that are knowledgeble about Nurburgring, handful I think have driven on it. Are they really bumpy like that, like in Gran Turismo 4? If that indeed was the case, then the Nurburgring track in that Forza 2 video to me is a joke.
 
RedBaron
I saw last FM2 trailer with Nurburgring. Sirs, that track in FM2, that's not Nurburgring, but some fantasy track. Too few bumps, trees are totally different from those around real track and sound from BMW V12 LM is exactly like GT4's buzzing. It's no competition for GT5 at all.
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I saw the video last night and i wasnt crazy about it..looked wide in some sections and it lacked cracks in the pavement and some other things that made it look real in GT4..I do remember them saying somewhere they did make it wider because of the 8 car field..In any case i will have to play that track as soon as i get the game..As far as the BMW V12 prototype please look up that car on youtube or a sebring race series and listen to how the car sounds..not to far off IMO..
 
The nurb does look great in GT4..it is one of the things I liked most of the game. But just bc it doesn't look great in Forza doesn't mean it should be discredited as enjoyable. It might be more fun to drive on Forza 2's Nurb than GT4's...MIGHT. It certainly is possible w/ the new physics engine mixed in w/ 8 online players. That sounds like fun to me. All I'm saying is you can't knock it until you tried it. I'll certainly let you guys know my judgement of it in the next couple weeks. I wish at least for you guys the GT5 demo will include the nurb as a playable track.
 
dunkee
The nurb does look great in GT4..it is one of the things I liked most of the game. But just bc it doesn't look great in Forza doesn't mean it should be discredited as enjoyable. It might be more fun to drive on Forza 2's Nurb than GT4's...MIGHT. It certainly is possible w/ the new physics engine mixed in w/ 8 online players. That sounds like fun to me. All I'm saying is you can't knock it until you tried it. I'll certainly let you guys know my judgement of it in the next couple weeks. I wish at least for you guys the GT5 demo will include the nurb as a playable track.
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Well for me it does take something away from the realism, that track is world renowned and if there gonna make the effort to blow something out of the water they should have done it on that track..Maybe i am over reacting but sometimes its the little big things that make something great..
 
Granted but you completely missed my point. What if you drove in Forza 2's nurb and taking the turns just felt cool..the weight tranfer, the mini jumps. And you raced online w/ some equally challenging competitors who made your hands sweat knowing they're riding your ass waiting to pass. What if that experience turned out to be better than the visually appealing affair that GT4 brought. Would you still say it'd be better?

I don't think T10's aim was to blow PD out the water through a visual war..they are bringing something else. Few see it but when the game comes out I think it will be clear..
 
dunkee
Granted but you completely missed my point. What if you drove in Forza 2's nurb and taking the turns just felt cool..the weight tranfer, the mini jumps. And you raced online w/ some equally challenging competitors who made your hands sweat knowing they're riding your ass waiting to pass. What if that experience turned out to be better than the visually appealing affair that GT4 brought. Would you still say it'd be better?

I don't think T10's aim was to blow PD out the water through a visual war..they are bringing something else. Few see it but when the game comes out I think it will be clear..
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I didnt miss your point, i know what your saying and yes that might be fine and dandy, put maybe what i am trying to say is that T10 came up short on some things..Not totally..But on IMO a major thing(for me)..PD took the time to go to the ring, film it, size it and race it..T10 basically put there own spin on it without actually being there..how do you do that on a game thats suppose to have real circuits to me thats like having a arcade game..And thats why i have been thinking that PD might always be the better sim when it comes to reality scale, IMO Turn10 might have come up short, i mean if your gonna go all in do it all the way..

I am not Taking anything away from FM2 as i love the options that it has and it really puts you in the drivers seat..but lets face it, if you were gonna make a game based on what we all would want this is how it would be:

Fully scaled tracks
Customization of body panels
Real parts, not Stage garbage..
Dyno tuning
Suspension tuning
Damage(meaning you slam into a wall and its over)
Consumption of Fuel
Oil temps, level..etc
Engine wear
Incredible Physics engine
Sound (probably one of the most important)
 
We are on two different playing fields..Your focus - the look of things, Mine - how it feels

Then you expect me to acknowledge your points while you ignore mine? Right.
 
dunkee
Granted but you completely missed my point. What if you drove in Forza 2's nurb and taking the turns just felt cool..the weight tranfer, the mini jumps. And you raced online w/ some equally challenging competitors who made your hands sweat knowing they're riding your ass waiting to pass. What if that experience turned out to be better than the visually appealing affair that GT4 brought. Would you still say it'd be better?

I don't think T10's aim was to blow PD out the water through a visual war..they are bringing something else. Few see it but when the game comes out I think it will be clear..
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No the point is not missed, GT4's Nurburgring is not simply visually appealing. GT4's biggest weakness is in the area of low-speed physics, not something that is a major issue on the 'ring.

Without the bumps and with a widened track a huge amount of the challenge of the 'ring is lost. Even in Enthusia the 'ring was technically accurate in terms of the corners, but again far to smooth and as a result it simply did not compare to the GT4 version.

If FM2 have not sorted the two main issues from FM1, the smoothness and wideness, then its simply not the 'ring as it should be and no matter how good the physics model it just would not feel right.

GT4's version of the 'ring is the only one that to me has ever felt right (despite GT4's issues in certain physics areas), and this is coming from someone who has driven the real thing and its at least as bumpy as the GT4 version.

The finest example of this is Fuchsrohre to Adenauer forest, this combo should be mind-bendingly tricky, it should catch you out; and in GT4 and Enthusia it does. Yet in FM1 the increase in track width totally sterilises this complex into something totally run of the mill.

ringks9.jpg

Source - http://www.bmw.com/generic/com/en/fascination/bmwm/automobiles/specials/_pdf/bmwm_nordschleife.pdf

If they make the same sort of mistake in FM2, then no matter how good the physics model is the Nurburgring simply will not be the challenge it should be.


Regards

Scaff
 
You're right the roughness of the track does add to the feel of it. And I'd hope it's in there for Forza 2. I mean they put it in Sebring so I hope it's the same for the nurb. Like I said, when I play it I'll let you guys know. Couple more weeks :)
 
Scaff
Without the bumps and with a widened track a huge amount of the challenge of the 'ring is lost. Even in Enthusia the 'ring was technically accurate in terms of the corners, but again far to smooth and as a result it simply did not compare to the GT4 version.
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Exactly my point, then FM2 should not have the right to call it Nurburgring..Maybe something else will suite it better but definitely not the 'ring..I am sure (dunkee)you have played the GT4 version of the ring and if you recall at the first carousel was a challenge since it was 2 different types of payment that forces you to use the correct line..How can you omit something like that on that track or make it less challenging..? Realism is gone what T10 and i am thinking thats want there whole franchise is geared towards..
 
97modman
Exactly my point, then FM2 should not have the right to call it Nurburgring..Maybe something else will suite it better but definitely not the 'ring..I am sure (dunkee)you have played the GT4 version of the ring and if you recall at the first carousel was a challenge since it was 2 different types of payment that forces you to use the correct line..How can you omit something like that on that track or make it less challenging..? Realism is gone what T10 and i am thinking thats want there whole franchise is geared towards..
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So are you pro or anti Forza? A couple post before you were praising it now it's "Realism is gone what T10 and i am thinking thats want there whole franchise is geared towards.." Talk about a flipflopper. And I'm sure no one here has played it, so until the game comes out to me it's a moot point. I for one won't judge the game based on one track (as huge as it may be). There are some here that are only getting a game solely on that track..that may be you. I'm open to new tracks and game innovations.
 
dunkee
Granted but you completely missed my point. What if you drove in Forza 2's nurb and taking the turns just felt cool..the weight tranfer, the mini jumps. And you raced online w/ some equally challenging competitors who made your hands sweat knowing they're riding your ass waiting to pass. What if that experience turned out to be better than the visually appealing affair that GT4 brought. Would you still say it'd be better?

I don't think T10's aim was to blow PD out the water through a visual war..they are bringing something else. Few see it but when the game comes out I think it will be clear..
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This is just me but...
Not in a million years could Forza2 produce the same Ring from Forza 1 or a Ring along the lines of what you've described and get any respect from me (respectively).

You just can't be a simulator and provide a Ring that is modeled so poorly. 👎

Maybe it's because of the dozen or so gigs of on-board Ring videos I have, or maybe it's from the constant Ring racing I did in GT4, but regardless of why, I could never accept a Ring as inaccurate as what Forza1 provided.

To me, nothing is more fun than running an accurate Ring... If I (or you) want mini jumps and turns that feel good, I would hope Turn10 could provide that in a track that isn't supposed to be a model of a real world track... Use an original track for that but please don't murder the Ring again. :indiff:

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the Ring is one spot where GT4 obviously blew Forza1 out of the water and if Forza2 plans to really improve, the Ring is a great place to start.

Btw, I felt like PGR2's Ring was just as good as Forza1's and since PGR2 was such a fun arcade racer I ended up having more fun on the Ring in PGR2 than in Forza1. :dopey:

(still, neither had anything on GT4's Ring) :sly:
 
dunkee
So are you pro or anti Forza? A couple post before you were praising it now it's "Realism is gone what T10 and i am thinking thats want there whole franchise is geared towards.." Talk about a flipflopper. And I'm sure no one here has played it, so until the game comes out to me it's a moot point. I for one won't judge the game based on one track (as huge as it may be). There are some here that are only getting a game solely on that track..that may be you. I'm open to new tracks and game innovations.
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I am not "Pro or Anti" anything, i am a consumer who looks for finer detail in things, i see a good game and i comment on it, thats what having an open mind is about..Maybe thats ok for you, but to me its not..You say its only based on this track well guess what i am sure its not with just this track, but we will see in a short couple of weeks..

I am in no way retracting any statements that i have said about FM2 or GT4 we have discussed this enough and i choose not to get into another debate with it because it will go no where..I will comment on the game once i play FM2 and if i dont feel like its up to par then i will let everyone know..

Dunkee, I do hope to see you on-line(xbox live) so maybe i can hand you your A$$, in one of these tracks..:)
 
97modman
I am not "Pro or Anti" anything, i am a consumer who looks for finer detail in things, i see a good game and i comment on it, thats what having an open mind is about..Maybe thats ok for you, but to me its not..You say its only based on this track well guess what i am sure its not with just this track, but we will see in a short couple of weeks..

I am in no way retracting any statements that i have said about FM2 or GT4 we have discussed this enough and i choose not to get into another debate with it because it will go no where..I will comment on the game once i play FM2 and if i dont feel like its up to par then i will let everyone know..

I do hope to see you on-line(xbox live) so maybe i can hand you your A$$, in one of these tracks..:)
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Oh those are fighting words my friend..this will surely be handled on the track.

As for you Kent, you are so predictable.
 
That's garbage dude.
You call me predictable? :lol:

How about this...
To ignore the Ring and then get hung up on the possible faults of GT5 is rather inconsistant... You say it is a moot point but using that same logic, many of the possible faults in GT are moot points. Basically, by ignoring the "moot" point of the Ring and saying you're open to new tracks and whatnot, it seems like you are really just trying to dodge a rather important part of these games as well as motorsports in general.

We are on two different playing fields..Your focus - the look of things, Mine - how it feels
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That's predictably you.
You just ignore the facts and chalk up a new victory to what is obviously your choice by using how it feels. Obviously you are implying that it feels fun because the fact of the matter is that it's not even close to feeling accurate (which ruins the simulator fun factor in games like forza and gt).

Dude, I just can't believe you... :rolleyes:
 
Kent who just the other day said was frustrated w/ all this dog chasing his tail talk..but as soon as the GT crew find something to pond on Forza about he is quick jump in on the fun :rolleyes: Until you try out the demo, you are moot.
 
dunkee
Kent who just the other day said was frustrated w/ all this dog chasing his tail talk..but as soon as the GT crew find something to pond on Forza about he is quick jump in on the fun :rolleyes: Until you try out the demo, you are moot.
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Rather ironic that the original (archaic) definition of a 'moot point' is one that is undecided and open to debate, as that's exactly what is happening here.

The entire point of this whole forum is to discuss and debate points of interest, Forza had some strong points and some weak points, the 'ring was one of its weakest points and for members to say its an area that needs addressing is perfectly valid.

Please do keep in mind that you accused us of being inly interested in looks rather than feel (incorrectly accused may I add), well the FM1 'ring is a classic example of looks over feel.

And yes for some of us the accuracy of the 'ring is a bloody big deal, I want it to be as realistic as possible.

Regards

Scaff
 
dunkee
Kent who just the other day said was frustrated w/ all this dog chasing his tail talk..but as soon as the GT crew find something to pond on Forza about he is quick jump in on the fun :rolleyes: Until you try out the demo, you are moot.
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Again, all I see you doing is making a fanboy of yourself.
This isn't about knocking on Forza. This isn't about GT being better or the opposite.
Rather, this is about the simple fact that all of us here have been discussing what each company needs to do, how they are going about showing that and what we all think the end result will be. The media war between forza and GT simple as that.

However, here we are at a crossroads where we've started to discuss one element of game play where Forza hasn't taken a solid victory (like all the other categories I'd been talking about over the last day).

Instead of you sticking to the ethics you claim to have, you play the role of a fanboy straight up. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but just look at the facts.

Nurburgring comes up and since GT has the upper-hand there you go off on "you all only care about what looks good, I care about what feels good" and "this is a moot point since I will not judge the game until it's out" (yet you are quick to do what with GT when it's something bad) (and you certainly will not admit that running a horrible recreation of the Ring just doesn't feel right).

Basically, the instant the Ring came up you went into defensive mode with a strong sense of denial.

That, combined with your blatent insults (calling me a moot point, what's that about?) is simply pathetic.
That's all, just plain pathetic.

I'm just amazed that you couldn't keep your cool. :rolleyes:
 
@ Scaff I actually saw that when I looked it up..couldn't remember how to spell it ;)

And I know about the point, but Kent busted my balls about that yesterday so I was poking fun.

It would be nice from you as well if you had some input on Forza's new physics before discrediting it.
 
dunkee
Scaff it would be nice from you as well if you had some input on Forza's new physics before discrediting it.
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Would you mind pointing out exactly how and when I have discredited FM2's physics?

What I have done is point out the areas that I believe needed to be developed from FM1, quite a different thing (an d something I have done in other threads in regard to both GT and Enthusia).

Hell I even posted the following video (from Enthusia) and challenged people to recreate it in GT4 (with a stock un-moded car) to highlight the weakness in GT4's low-speed physics.



The one thing I am damn well not is a biased fan-boy, nor do I make definitive statements about anything I have not personally tried, nor do I like being accused of such.

Regards

Scaff
 
@ Kent I'm always cool as ice :sly:

There he goes again contradicting himself. You got on me before about blanketing the term fanboy (never did I directly call anyone a fanboy), yet you feel its appropriate to use it yourself..Bad moderator you 👎

Am I fanboy..yup it's fun. I aim to be dangtp's counterpart. Are you a fanboy...hmmm that is a good question.

Scaff
Would you mind pointing out exactly how and when I have discredited FM2's physics?

What I have done is point out the areas that I believe needed to be developed from FM1, quite a different thing (an d something I have done in other threads in regard to both GT and Enthusia).

Regards

Scaff
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I just would love for you guys to try it. Is all.
 
I'll let the others here read and decide for themselves if I'm a fanboy. I've got plenty of material down and I think the instant the Ring came up it became clear to everyone who was acting what way.

Beyond that, I didn't really use fanboy in a blanket statement at all...

Well I suppose you could say I did but that blanket was wrapped solely around you.

Enjoy the nap in that heavenly state I'm now calling "Ringer's denial."

Good fanboy you. 👍
Bad openminded simulation enthusiast you. 👎
 
Kent
Beyond that, I didn't really use fanboy in a blanket statement at all...

Well I suppose you could say I did but that blanket was wrapped solely around you.
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Exactly so why make a big stink about it from the get. Obviously you know it doesn't bother me. Why you keep implying it does is beyond me.

Scaff
The one thing I am damn well not is a biased fan-boy, nor do I make definitive statements about anything I have not personally tried, nor do I like being accused of such.
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And no one has..so if you are offended by anything I said don't be. It was not what I was implying (towards you)
 
Not trying to feed the fire or anything but i am quite enjoying this debate between Kent and Dunkee, and whoever else jumps in it, it's like a soap opera! :)
 
I think we should all just take a look when the final product is delivered.. I am sure Forza will Satisfy me 95% since they have "most" of the things i always wanted in a Sim..As for PD they know there strong points and the have to show them now or never or succumb to a defeat..
I predict that from this battle the victors will be us, each company trying to out do each other and its a great thing..
GT5 and Forza 3 will be a slug fest..guys grab your drinks its gonna get messy..
 
:lol: I know..I feel like my life is on trial here. Kent is the prosecuter :grumpy: I'm kidding..he's cool w/ me :cheers:

I just want more serious racers to play on live with. I know the first couple of months will be filled w/ NFS rejects.
 
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