The Inconvenient Truth About Hybrids: Hybrids Owners Get More Tickets?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Joey D
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Should be "Should they save gasoline," Not "Energy," As energy, by law of conservation, cannot be created nor Destroyed.

It is all interesting, because the energy MUST come from somewhere. If it comes from Electricity, it can be produces without dependence on foreign oil...but coal is an environmentalist's nightmare, and should be restricted to antique locomotive use. Nuclear suffers from the Soviet Union's inability to cover up their massive stupidity, as well as a relatively minor meltdown that really didn't hurt anyone. Oh, yeah, and bombs.
 
Should be "Should they save gasoline," Not "Energy," As energy, by law of conservation, cannot be created nor Destroyed.
When discussing automobiles saying energy works as the transfer of energy after the car has rolled is useless to us.

Think of it as usable energy. That is why we have the term energy crisis, as after a certain point the energy becomes purely a waste product for our needs.

but coal is an environmentalist's nightmare, and should be restricted to antique locomotive use.
Nice stereotype, too bad it is about a decade behind current technology. I take it you have never heard of clean coal?

New processes allow coal to be burned with a much reduced waste output, and even in older processes we have ways of scrubbing the waste.

I also take it you have not heard of coal to natural gas technology? It is still fairly new but it has a lot of possible potential.

And while I will grant you that even clean coal is not clean by nuclear standards it is still the cheapest way to create electricity out there right now. And considering the current economic I think that is something that needs to be taken into account.



For Earth Day I filled up my tank with gas and then spilled some on the ground, just because. From the Earth you came and to the Earth you shall return.

I also sprayed all the weeds in my garden with Round Up.
 
Coal isn't the way to go either since it is a finite supply. I really like the idea of a wind/solar/nuclear power grid in the US. That should easily meet our growing demands and not pollute the environment either (even though I a skeptical about global warming I still don't want to breath foul air).
 
16 days? That's it? That is only 4% of the year.

But that's also 40% of our gasoline needs if everybody drove a hybrid.

A couple things I would like to know though, how much oil goes into the production of a hybrid, as you may recall about the Hummer v. Prius argument, the Prius does not win out.

My guess is that the production of the battery is not a very huge consumer of oil. Remember that the oil going into that battery factory is for every battery produced, so the unit cost in fuel probably isn't much.

And what if these car suddenly became plug-in hybrids, would that cause us to burn more fuel to meet the power demand of 10% of the driving population plugging in their cars at night?

Jim Prower
It is all interesting, because the energy MUST come from somewhere. If it comes from Electricity, it can be produces without dependence on foreign oil...but coal is an environmentalist's nightmare, and should be restricted to antique locomotive use. Nuclear suffers from the Soviet Union's inability to cover up their massive stupidity, as well as a relatively minor meltdown that really didn't hurt anyone. Oh, yeah, and bombs.

I'll first go and say that plug-ins will do little in terms of putting extra strain on the power grid. Most cars would be plugged in at times when electricity usage should be down. Although, replacing power from gasoline with electricity from coal may not be just as eco-friendly. If you're in the Western states, that electricity comes mainly from clean sources. Be here in the midwest, coal and other fossil fuels are still used frequently. It would be interesting to see how much emissions are produced when producing electricity for a plug-in car compared to what would otherwise come out of that cars tailpipe.

Should be "Should they save gasoline," Not "Energy," As energy, by law of conservation, cannot be created nor Destroyed.

Have you ever driven behind a Prius? They probably use half as much energy as any other car out there just from driving habits.
 
Have you ever driven behind a Prius? They probably use half as much energy as any other car out there just from driving habits.

Perhaps where you are, but I don't think I've EVER passed a Prius, save for a couple stoplights. Then again, I'm rarely above 5MPH over.
 
Perhaps where you are, but I don't think I've EVER passed a Prius, save for a couple stoplights. Then again, I'm rarely above 5MPH over.

That's another point about hybrids. Except for those that like to drive them slowly to revel in their smugness, they rarely get driven in a way that takes full advantage of the hybrid technology. Quick take offs and highway speeds rarely use the electric side of things to their potential.
 
Another interesting article from AutoBlog Green which basically supports everything I have been saying. Hybrids are pointless if you want to save money since they take so long to recoup the initial costs. This is kind of lengthy so I don't want a huge quote but I do want to make this known that is it sourced from AutoBlog Green and that I am not claiming this as my own.

AutoBlog Green
How far must you drive your hybrid before it pays off?

Hybrids help you save gas at the pump, this is something we all know. We also know why burning less gasoline is good: fewer greenhouse gases are emitted to the atmosphere, it reduces our dependence on foreign oil and we spend less money at the pump. However, there is always the question about what is the overall impact of using a hybrid versus using a non-hybrid version. There are currently 17 hybrid models available in the U. S. market and all but one have a corresponding non-hybrid counterpart to compare with. As part of our Earth Day coverage today, we took a closer look at the following two questions:

* Question #1: How far can we drive with a hybrid powertrain compared to a non-hybrid?
* Question #2: When will the hybrid investment pay for itself through gas savings?

Before we go to the complete list let me explain the criteria we used. First of all we chose the "economy" powertrains, when we had the option. Therefore we'll be comparing mostly 4-cylinder models. In the case of SUVs, we chose the AWD/4WD versions. For a few models, we've compared them to the European diesel versions data, although this should be taken with a pinch of salt due to the EU's different driving cycles. Finally, we used $3.5/gal as the price of gasoline and added the car's MRSP price. Don't forget that some of these vehicles will qualify for various tax breaks, so you might have to recalculate our numbers for yourself. Got all that? Good, let's see the results (after the jump).

Case #1: Honda Civic
If you need a compact, sporty and nice sedan, the Civic is a good choice. It doesn't hurt at all that the Civic is available not only with two gasoline engines, but a natural gas and a hybrid version as well. Let's check how our two questions are answered for this model.

According to the official figures, the Honda Civic Sedan EX-L 1.8 gets 36/32 mpg (hwy/city). The Hybrid version gets 45/40 mpg. This is actually a good improvement, since we'll get 16 percent more miles from a tank of gas with the hybrid (553 vs 475). However, you won't be able to offset your savings until you drive 97,200 miles on the highway or 86,400 in city driving, because of the gasoline cost per mile.

Honda.jpg


If we check the European diesel Civic, with a 2.2-liter engine, 140 HP and 53/33 mpg, we can make up to 753 miles with a single tank (highway).

Case #2: Chevrolet Malibu and Saturn Aura

If you want a domestic sedan, both the Malibu and the Aura have good credentials. The redesigned Malibu is catching a lot of attention and the Aura has a lot in common with the Opel/Vauxhall Vectra. Both cars can be purchased with I4, V6 and, now, hybrid powertrains.

According to the official figures, both non-hybrid sedans get 30/22 mpg (hwy/cty) while the hybrids get 32/24 mpg. That isn't a spectacular leap. The hybrid will take us 6.7 percent further on a single tank, 512 vs 480 miles. We estimate you'll offset your hybrid premium after 200,000 miles of highway driving or about 100,000 of city driving.

Malibu.jpg


If we check the European Opel/Vauxhall Vectra 1.9 DTi, with a 2.2-liter engine, 150 HP with automatic - which gets 42 and 24.5 mpg - we see it can go up to 662 miles with a single tank of diesel.

Case #3: Nissan Altima and Toyota Camry

If you're interested in the sedan category, you will probably be looking at imports and domestics. Little more needs to be said about these two best-sellers. As above, we can buy them with an I4, a V6 or hybrid powertrains.

According to the official figures, the Altima Hybrid gets 35/33 mpg (hwy/cty) and the Camry Hybrid gets 34/33 while the non-hybrids get 31/23 and 31/21 mpg, respectively, offering quite an nice increase in city driving. Regarding how much we can run on a single tank, it's 13 percent more for the Altima and two percent more for the Camry (note: tank capacity is different, check the estimation of cost per mile). An estimation of when you'll offset your initial expense? You'll need 300,000 miles for highway driving or about 70,000 of city driving.

import.jpg


Case #4: Lexus

Now, let's step up a level. Unfortunately, the only choice we have here is to speak about a single brand, Lexus. We have two options here, the GS and the LS. In this case, not many options were available to compare. If you wondered, only the IS has a diesel option for Europeans (with a very interesting 177 HP D-CAT engine).

According to the official figures, you shouldn't really be considering the hybrid version if you do mostly highway driving. The savings for both sedans are only worth it in city driving. The GS hybrid gets three mpg more than the regular GS. In the case of the LS flagship , the savings are more spectacular, up to 22 mpg from 16. Regarding how much we can run on a single tank, we will consider city driving. You'll drive six percent further in the case of the GS and a whopping 37.5 percent in case of the LS. To estimate when you'll offset your hybrid premium? Let's just say you'll need to drive a lot due to the huge price gap between the hybrid and the regular versions. ( :lol: - Joey)

Lexus.jpg


Case #5: Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute/Mercury Mariner

SUVs aren't considered very good green vehicles, but for someone who needs the carrying capacity, it's good we have hybrid powertrains make them better performers. In this case, we considered AWD versions just because we thought that if you wanted an SUV it was because you really needed it. You wouldn't buy an SUV if you didn't, right? Right?

According to the official figures, these compact hybrid SUVs get 29/27 mpg (hwy/cty) while the standard versions get 24/19 (hwy/city). Regarding on how far they will take us on a single tank, part of the improvement (about 10 percent) is because of the difference of the tank size. Our estimate is that you'll offset your initial expense after 200,000 miles of highway driving or about 80,000-100,000 of city driving. Like with the Lexus, this happens mostly because of the higher cost of the hybrid versions and not for the improvement in city mileage (which is about 30 percent).

Ford.jpg


Case #6: Toyota Highlander, Saturn VUE and Lexus RX

Although we could include these SUVs in the case above, we separated them not to make the tables too large, but you can compare them easily, and see that the Vue is the winner in terms of mileage and price, although it plays in a different league with a less powerful engine compared to the Toyota/Lexus.

According to the official figures, the Toyota/Lexus get five percent more miles on a tank, (it's smaller in the hybrid, though) and mileage is improved about 25 percent. In the case of the VUE, we run 23 percent more miles on a single tank of unleaded. Mileage is improved from 23/17 to 27/25 mpg (Highlander), 22/17 to 26/24 mpg for the RX. In the case of the VUE, improvement is remarkable, from 26/19 to 32/25 mpg. Payoff time? You need about 100,000 miles of highway driving to offset the price difference in the Highlander, 150,000 for the RX and the Vue. In case of city driving, figures go down to 35,000 miles, 65,000 and 93,000 miles, respectively.

SUV.jpg


Case #7: Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon

For those cases in which you really need a large SUV, it's good that GM thought about installing a hybrid powertrain. While the hybrid system doesn't produce miracles in highway driving, it does have an solid effect in city driving, basically by not having the V8 idle while waiting at traffic lights.

According to the official figures, the Chevy/Yukon gets 19/14 mpg (hwy/city) and the Hybrid version gets 20/20 mpg. This is actually a good improvement in the case of city driving. Calcualting how many city blocks we can drive with a tank of unleaded, we see we can drive 35 percent further if we choose the hybrid powertrains (once again, the tank is smaller in the hybrid version). In order to offset the hybrid premium we will need about 180,000 miles of city driving.

GMT900.jpg


Case #8: Toyota Prius

We'll end this post with a most unfair comparison. The Prius is a model which is completely different from any current offerings at Toyota, so we just compared it to a Toyota Corolla (and then with a diesel Toyota Auris which is itself a very different car).

According to the official figures, the Toyota Corolla 1.8 Automatic gets 35/26 mpg (hwy/city). The Prius has America's best mileage with 48/45 mpg. It is actually a big difference and even with a smaller tank, we can driver 25 percent further in the case of the Prius. But when are you going to compensate for the difference in upfront cash? After about 210,000 miles of highway driving and 100,000 of city driving.

Prius.jpg


If we check Toyota's European counterpart, there's the Auris, with a 2.0-liter engine, 126 HP and 48/33 mpg, we can make up to 680 miles with a single tank (highway). Again, bear in mind that this isn't exact due to Europe's and America's slightly different measuring systems.

Autoblog Green
In all cases, we see that buying a hybrid is not exactly going to make financial sense right away. Still, these numbers were calculated using $3.50 as the cost of a gallon. The higher that goes, the lower all the distances become. Think it over.
 
Just had a thought...

I've noticed that a lot of people drive their Hybrids at a rather swift pace...but I've also noticed petrol models driving about the same way. Does anyone have any info about the economy at more-than-highway speeds? I know my Nova suffers greatly due to it's short top gear, but cars these days typically have one or two overdrive gears.
 
Just had a thought...

I've noticed that a lot of people drive their Hybrids at a rather swift pace...but I've also noticed petrol models driving about the same way. Does anyone have any info about the economy at more-than-highway speeds? I know my Nova suffers greatly due to it's short top gear, but cars these days typically have one or two overdrive gears.

The Prius gets worse mileage on the highway then in the city so I would assume the faster it's going the worse the mileage gets.
 
Perhaps where you are, but I don't think I've EVER passed a Prius, save for a couple stoplights. Then again, I'm rarely above 5MPH over.

Maybe it's just us West Coast tree huggers then.

That's another point about hybrids. Except for those that like to drive them slowly to revel in their smugness, they rarely get driven in a way that takes full advantage of the hybrid technology. Quick take offs and highway speeds rarely use the electric side of things to their potential.

In a quick takeoff the electric motor would be helping the gas engine, no? That would point to better economy regardless. And I thought part of the reason I see so many Priuses going around 60 at home was because that was the speed they were using battery at.

But I've only been in a hybrid twice so I don't really know.

The Prius gets worse mileage on the highway then in the city so I would assume the faster it's going the worse the mileage gets.

Isn't that the case for every car? The electric motor probably stops helping out any at a little above highway speeds.
 
Isn't that the case for every car? The electric motor probably stops helping out any at a little above highway speeds.

Most cars get better mileage on the highway over the city, the Cooper gets about 32 in the city and almost 40 on the highway while traveling an average speed of 75mph typically. It's more gearing then anything else, but in the Prius's case doesn't the electric motor quit after xx mph?
 
Most cars get better mileage on the highway over the city, the Cooper gets about 32 in the city and almost 40 on the highway while traveling an average speed of 75mph typically. It's more gearing then anything else, but in the Prius's case doesn't the electric motor quit after xx mph?

Yes it does, I think its 30-35mph.
 
In a quick takeoff the electric motor would be helping the gas engine, no? That would point to better economy regardless. And I thought part of the reason I see so many Priuses going around 60 at home was because that was the speed they were using battery at.

But I've only been in a hybrid twice so I don't really know.
Judging from driving my brother's Prius and watching the little "look how great you are doing smughead" screen; it will help when taking off, but if you floor it the electric cuts out pretty quick. Also it goes complete gas after about 30-35mph. A hybrid is a great fuel saver for city goers with a lot of stop and go at low speeds, but higher speeds and treating it like a ricer negates most of the benefits. For example, I drive 40 miles a day on 70mph speed limit interstate. It would be utterly pointless for me to get one. Now a diesel.....

Where is my TDI Rabbit?


All that said: I have seen articles talking about some of the hybrid supercars with a kind of duel electric system where it has a low speed and a high speed system to maintain torque at high speeds.


EDIT:
Joey
Most cars get better mileage on the highway over the city, the Cooper gets about 32 in the city and almost 40 on the highway while traveling an average speed of 75mph typically. It's more gearing then anything else, but in the Prius's case doesn't the electric motor quit after xx mph?
Exactly, an all petrol car stabilizes at a constant high end speed. My RPMs settles at about 3,000 while doing 70mph. I can get about 32mpg out of it doing that. However, when I have used an entire tank on stop and go city driving I rev up and down the whole time, using more gas to get the car moving and accelerating a lot. That will usually get me aroudn 25mpg.

In a hybrid the electric is being used to get the car moving and up to minimum cruising speeds. So, its optimal mileage is reversed as it uses little to no gasoline when stopping and going, but pure gasoline when cruising.
 
Where is my TDI Rabbit?

Won't happen is my guess... Will raise the price on the car too much for people. Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on how well the Jetta TDI does, and my guess is that they'll sell that supply out in just a few weeks.

With the MKVI Golf on the way, they won't try to invest too much in the US market, I think.

Somewhat OT: All 2009 Volkswagens get completely free service for 3 years or 36,000 miles... Which makes me consider waiting for an '09 Rabbit a bit more.
 
Most cars get better mileage on the highway over the city, the Cooper gets about 32 in the city and almost 40 on the highway while traveling an average speed of 75mph typically. It's more gearing then anything else, but in the Prius's case doesn't the electric motor quit after xx mph?

My post was mostly referring to the highway. Cars are geared to be efficient at highway speeds and not so much when they are traveling at 100 mph pushing all that air out of the way.

Judging from driving my brother's Prius and watching the little "look how great you are doing smughead" screen; it will help when taking off, but if you floor it the electric cuts out pretty quick. Also it goes complete gas after about 30-35mph. A hybrid is a great fuel saver for city goers with a lot of stop and go at low speeds, but higher speeds and treating it like a ricer negates most of the benefits. For example, I drive 40 miles a day on 70mph speed limit interstate. It would be utterly pointless for me to get one. Now a diesel.....

Where is my TDI Rabbit?

That probably helps explain why there are so many in the urban parts of the West Coast compared to here where nothing really seems urban. I find it surprising that when you step on it at lower speeds that the electric motor doesn't kick in to produce a little more torque.

And I wonder if my parents are still looking into that TDI Jetta....
 
My post was mostly referring to the highway. Cars are geared to be efficient at highway speeds and not so much when they are traveling at 100 mph pushing all that air out of the way.

I think they are fine up to about 100mph depending on how aerodynamic they are. The Prius has a really low drag coefficient which probably helps it on the highway. I think it's like .25 or something.
 
I think they are fine up to about 100mph depending on how aerodynamic they are. The Prius has a really low drag coefficient which probably helps it on the highway. I think it's like .25 or something.

Actually it is closer to .33.

Source: It was compared to the R35 GT-R for the drag, which is .34 on the R35 I believe.
 
I think they are fine up to about 100mph depending on how aerodynamic they are. The Prius has a really low drag coefficient which probably helps it on the highway. I think it's like .25 or something.

right and wrong.

up to about 40mph or so aerodynamics dont really affect the car. you can drive with open windows and so on. above that drag starts to really increase.

and remember, as you get faster, drag increases with the square of speed. or something like that.
 
I think they are fine up to about 100mph depending on how aerodynamic they are. The Prius has a really low drag coefficient which probably helps it on the highway. I think it's like .25 or something.

\/

and remember, as you get faster, drag increases with the square of speed. or something like that.

^^^ Bingo.

Keep in mind that the force or drag = (1/2)(air density)(frontal area)(velocity)^2(Cd). Because the velocity is a squared function, the drag will increase very quickly at higher speeds so that small difference in Cd won't make all that much difference. But what neanderthal said about low speeds and the speed the force of drag changes at higher speeds means that in the end, there is a faily small window where you can really use that Cd to your advantage.

Also, you can see that frontal area plays a role in drag. You can have the Cd of the Concorde yet have a mile of frontal area and your car won't be able to go fast at all. I don't know how the area of a Prius will compare to other cars though.
 
We test drove the Prius at 40 mph on the highway here (minimum legal limit) beside a Focus Diesel. Both cars got about 47 mpg when we back-calculated from fuel, the V-Box and the trip-meters.

Crawling in gridlocked traffic, we got the Prius down to 35 mpg, and the Diesel down to 26 mpg, but it's not a fair comparison, as it's a two liter diesel versus a 1.5 liter hybrid. A 1.5 liter diesel can still do 30+ mpg in the conditions we were in.

The only time we hit over 50 mpg with the Prius was in regular commuting. 53 mpg. The absolute ONLY way to maximize the Prius? Drive it like a regular car. Go with the ebb and flow of traffic, to maximize braking regeneration. If you're crawling slowly in traffic and letting it coast (like you would while saving gas in a regular car), you're just wasting battery. Accelerate up to speed briskly, then brake moderately and early at a stop to maximize regeneration.

Word is you can get more than the 47 mpg we got on the highway by the "pulse-and-glide" technique... but seriously... who wants to do that for 100 miles? Either way, the Prius doesn't make as much sense on the highway as it does in the city... and only if the traffic is moving. If it isn't... forget about it. The AC will drain your battery in minutes.
 
Another interesting article from Bloomberg about what makes financial sense. Granted this is from the opinion section and therefore a bit biased but columnist John F. Wasik does make a fairly good point. It's also funny how he shows you can be green, support the oil industry, and generate a nice little bit of money.

Bloomberg
Prius Isn't the Cheapest Way to Cut Energy Bills
With the price of oil and gasoline hitting record highs, it's time to wake up and face the crude truth on how you can save money on energy costs.

As commodity traders push oil prices ever higher as the dollar recedes, there's little, if any, relief in sight at the fuel pump or from soaring utility bills.

Yet the deer-in-the-headlights attitude that most investors, vehicle owners and homeowners adopt is misguided. There are quite a few actions you can take to beat the escalating cost of energy.

The most-common response to high gasoline prices is to go out and purchase a high-mileage vehicle. This reaction certainly hasn't hurt the sales of companies such as Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co., which offer several fuel-stingy cars, trucks and vans.

If you have a long commute or simply drive a lot, you'll immediately see the savings. There will be longer times between fill-ups. It may not make sense to pay a premium for these cars, though. The top two highest-mileage cars -- the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid -- carry retail prices of more than $20,000.

Let's say you bought a stripped-down Toyota Prius for $22,000, received a $4,000 trade-in allowance and put $2,000 down. You also paid about $1,300 in sales tax. You then finance the balance, $17,300, at 6 percent annual interest for five years, resulting in a payment of $334 a month. You will eventually pay about $2,800 in interest on the loan. If you save $1,000 a year in gasoline costs, it will take you almost three years to recoup your investment.

Even Better Math

Like many who suddenly are cheered by the fact they are getting terrific mileage in their new hybrid car, you may succumb to the buffet effect -- and drive more -- thus negating some of your savings and extending your payback period.

Two other strategies make more sense. Buy a smaller, less- expensive car for your commute and drive less. The Toyota Yaris and Honda Fit retail between $12,000 and $14,000 for the basic models.

Their fuel efficiency ranges between 28 miles per gallon in the city and 35 on the highway. That's less than the 48 mpg the Prius claims for city driving, but you can put your savings to better use.

The single-best strategy is to take public transportation or car pool and delay your new-car purchase. If you invested a $479 monthly loan payment, according to the newsletter Fidelity Investor's Quarterly, in a portfolio earning 7 percent a year, you could turn a year's worth of car payments into almost $200,000 over 35 years. That's the miracle of compound interest -- if you keep your savings invested.

Can you wait two years and invest those deferred payments? Then it's a $330,000 savings.

Beating Oil Prices

You must think Fidelity is daft suggesting you can get 7 percent in a portfolio now with U.S. stocks swooning, bond yields dropping and the dollar in the dumpster

Higher returns are available. If you can't beat oil prices, join Wall Street in profiting from them. The SPDR S&P Oil and Gas Production and Exploration (60.06 - 4/23) exchange-traded fund samples a basket of stocks in the energy-extraction industry.

The energy fund has gained about 40 percent over the past year, according to Bloomberg data.

Energy funds involve concentrated bets with high risk if you guess wrong. If you choose to gamble on these vehicles, do it with no more than 10 percent of your portfolio.

Feel squeamish about investing in oil and gas production? Then just diversify outside of U.S. stock markets. The Janus Overseas Fund (54.22 - 4/23) is up about 16 percent over the past year, putting it in the top 2 percent of its peers.

Guaranteed Savings

One guaranteed action that will ``green'' your savings is to lower your overall energy use.

Start with your home or apartment. Do an energy audit with the U.S. Department of Energy's free Home Energy Saver program. I plugged in my home zip code and discovered I could save almost $650 a year by making my home more energy efficient.

``The biggest energy savers anyone can do,'' said Fred Maas, a green developer with Black Mountain Ranch LLC in San Diego. ``Add insulation and seal windows. An enormous amount of energy is lost through ventilation.''

Not only will you save money on energy bills if you become more efficient in your home and transportation use, it will benefit the earth in terms of lower carbon dioxide emissions. When economy meets ecology halfway, everyone benefits.

It makes sense, buy a cheaper, fuel efficient car and invest the difference. You'll generate a nice bit of money, save on fuel, and help the planet. I am currently trying to do just this, I bought a more fuel efficient car (the most efficient mini-compact according to these guys: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/bestworst.shtml) and once it's paid off I am going to invest the difference in my fuel from the Blazer to the MINI...and most of it is going into oil and other energy funds.

Granted he said public transportation is the way to go and I fully agree, I would love to be able to hop on a bus or take a train but in my area of the country I can't. The nearest bus stop is at Oakland University, where I attend school. It makes no sense. If this country wants to quell the fuel problems we need public transportation that people want to ride.

Thoughts?
 
I find it surprising that when you step on it at lower speeds that the electric motor doesn't kick in to produce a little more torque.
It starts out using both to maximize takeoff, but cuts the electric much quicker (~15mph) than under normal conditions. As I know very little about how a CVT works I can't say why it works the way it does when pushed.

Actually it is closer to .33.

Source: It was compared to the R35 GT-R for the drag, which is .34 on the R35 I believe.
It's actually .26 according to the Toyota USA website:
I think the part that all of these forget to take into account are the bike racks, camping gear, and granola crumbs on the outside of the car. I know my brother has a kayak rack on his roof and at highway speeds he has trouble getting 40mpg. He also has the original Prius that doesn't look like a spaceship.

Sorry, I'll quit making tree-hugging type jokes at Prius owners now.
 
I think the part that all of these forget to take into account are the bike racks, camping gear, and granola crumbs on the outside of the car. I know my brother has a kayak rack on his roof and at highway speeds he has trouble getting 40mpg. He also has the original Prius that doesn't look like a spaceship.

Sorry, I'll quit making tree-hugging type jokes at Prius owners now.

:lol:

I'd be curious to see how these sort of thing affect the mileage on vehicle. I know with MINI's racks drop the mpg on the highway quite a bit as well, typically down to 33-35mpg instead of the 40mpg. I don't have one on my car but several guys I know that do own one have various things clamped to the roof.
 
It's not only more surface area, it interrupts the flow of air around smooth bodywork.
 
Keep in mind that the force or drag = (1/2)(air density)(frontal area)(velocity)^2(Cd). Because the velocity is a squared function, the drag will increase very quickly at higher speeds so that small difference in Cd won't make all that much difference. But what neanderthal said about low speeds and the speed the force of drag changes at higher speeds means that in the end, there is a faily small window where you can really use that Cd to your advantage.
A lower cd will help you more and more the faster you go, with no end. Like the new C6 corvettes, which dropped from .29(C5) down to .27
As for velocity and air density, there's nothing for a driver or manufacture to do, it's just there.
which leaves only the size of the area subjected to a cd rating. This is easy to tell - corvette = small, prius = small, dodge ram = large, subaru impreza = medium, etc.

so gas is 3.50$ a gallon right here, right now. diesel is up around 4.15$ a gallon.
Now, 4.15 divided by 3.50 is = 1.186 (rounded)
So if your best gasoline car runs 38mpg, and your best diesel runs 45mpg, your diesel will save you = squat. you'll actually pay out a very small amount extra....
 
i believe that to be part true sir

if you were to theoretically drop your C6 corvette and a mack truck from a spaceship, both would end up at the same terminal speed. the corvettes aero wouldnt let it drop faster.

for purposes of this argument lets assume that the vehicles drop nose down.
 
A lower cd will help you more and more the faster you go, with no end. Like the new C6 corvettes, which dropped from .29(C5) down to .27
As for velocity and air density, there's nothing for a driver or manufacture to do, it's just there.
which leaves only the size of the area subjected to a cd rating. This is easy to tell - corvette = small, prius = small, dodge ram = large, subaru impreza = medium, etc.

I'm just saying this because the Prius isn't much of a small car. Those things are still pretty tall no matter how slippery they are. And I said that the Cd won't matter that much at higher speeds (economy wise) because either way, the forces against the car are going to be huge and there isn't much an engine can do. But when you start trying to go as fast as you can, a lower Cd will certainly help a lot.

So if your best gasoline car runs 38mpg, and your best diesel runs 45mpg, your diesel will save you = squat. you'll actually pay out a very small amount extra....

The TDI Jetta my parents are thinking of getting should save money then. It gets a reported 55-60 mpg highway (compared to ~30 for petrol VWs) and 45 city compared to 20-25 for the other VWs. It should prove very helpful by theoretically cutting consumption in half and more than compensating for the price of diesel.
 
I'm just saying this because the Prius isn't much of a small car. Those things are still pretty tall no matter how slippery they are. And I said that the Cd won't matter that much at higher speeds (economy wise) because either way, the forces against the car are going to be huge and there isn't much an engine can do. But when you start trying to go as fast as you can, a lower Cd will certainly help a lot.



The TDI Jetta my parents are thinking of getting should save money then. It gets a reported 55-60 mpg highway (compared to ~30 for petrol VWs) and 45 city compared to 20-25 for the other VWs. It should prove very helpful by theoretically cutting consumption in half and more than compensating for the price of diesel.
but a lower cd will help highway milage, for the very same reason it helps top speed.

As for this diesel getting 45 city and 60 highway, very good luck to you sir. I'd hope for 40-50 at best if I were you.

i believe that to be part true sir

if you were to theoretically drop your C6 corvette and a mack truck from a spaceship, both would end up at the same terminal speed. the corvettes aero wouldnt let it drop faster.

for purposes of this argument lets assume that the vehicles drop nose down.
Well, assume you're right, and that's not only true, but a fair comparison. Explain why all these racing teams and manufatures spend hours and dollars to improve airflow.


EDIT: From what I've just heard, the reports are saying somewhere around 51mpg for it. I would expect 70mpg in absolute perfect conditions, with perfect driving.
Problem is, most people won't drive at 45-55mph, no matter how much gas it saves, and they won't go the extra mile to throw it into neutral as soon as possible every time they come to a stop either.let alone the put-put acceleration needed to get truely great milage.

fueleconomy.gov
While each vehicle reaches its optimal fuel economy at a different speed (or range of speeds), gas mileage usually decreases rapidly at speeds above 60 mph.

As a rule of thumb, you can assume that each 5 mph you drive over 60 mph is like paying an additional $0.20 per gallon for gas.
 
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