Garage Showdowns! Join Discussion to Make Future Events Better!

Have to admit I had a few close encounters with B24 yesterday but, in his defense, I didn't see anything malicious. Just looked to me like a bit of inexperience which I would never criticise. GT5P is open to all comers and, sooner or later you have to switch from standard to pro-physics events. Accidents are unavoidable.

Seems a shame to be tarnishing the rep of a newbie with the same brush you'd use to paint a rammer/punter.

Bit of perspective people?
 
You didn't have to put up with the BS at the start of that race. I really get sick of starting last all the time. I think in future Showdowns we (the garages) should try and tune for one less PP than the event allows, for better grid position.

Sorry mate, what do you mean by "to put up with the BS" ??? I was running 600 pp like you ;)

Sorry if you feel lonely starting last, its usually my place to start :sly:
 
Geez the argumenation just doesnt stop... Reading through all the above posts it seems to me that the corner that is consistantly the cause of confrontation at Fuji is turn 4.

Hot lapping is not racecraft and the two a very different skills, unfortunately racecraft is best learnt on a real race track. If you have spent any significant time on a race track you will understand exactly what i mean.

Part of the problem is from drivers who believe:
a) The fastest line is the quickest line
b) If you are on that line then you own the corner

Sorry to say guys, that we are not hotlapping here.. we are racing.
So to dispel a few myths:

- If you maintain the "Racing line" round a track in a close race, you are going to get overtaken. Fuji is a good example where the fastest line (ie maintaining highest corner speed) will leave you open to an overtake move up the inside on several corners(Turn 1, Turn 4 etc).
Why ?
2 reasons.
1) The following car cant determine if you are running wide on purpose or not.. when is "wide" wide enough to execute an overtaking move ?
2) There is a lot of track here, enough to be able to pull up alongside a car taking the wide line or the Racing line, Once there that corner is yours, but the problem in GT5 is lack of visability from both drivers, the driver on the wide line will continue his cornering line and contact will occur.
Solution, and this goes for racing in every single globally... protect your bloody line !! you all have mirrors, you can all hear the car up your arse, if you cannot protect your corner then dont whinge when someone takes an inside line which forces you to have to get off the throttle to avoid contact.

I know most people here have not had the benefit of serious track time and this is simply a skill learnt over time. So lets apply this to Turn 4 at Fuji,
You have a car that you know is hanging off your bumper coming out of turn 3 and you setup for turn 4.. you have 2 choices, take the wide line, fast in fast out and run the risk of the trailing car trying a move, or you hold a tighter line and maintain a slow in fast out corner approach.

- The fastest line is not always the quickest line.. interesting concept yes ?
Now N4HS had a bit of an uneducated remark in a previous post about my corner line and how i would have had a slow exit had I not made contact, but unortunately this is not the case, and if you guys want to do some reading before making claims I can recommend http://phors.locost7.info/phors17.htm as a good start.

The quickest line through Fuji Turn 4 may not be the fastest.. and indeed this is the case as the inside line, slow in fast out, will result in an all up shorter amount of time spent in the corner, but not neccessarily maintaining a higher corner speed... however the exit speed doesnt matter as the time saved in this corner is enough to maintain a lead into the hard braking for turn 5 and also serves to protect your corner... think about it, better still go and try it.

If any of you watched the V8 racing yesterday afternoon you would have witnessed levels of carnage/contact/spinning of cars that make the GT5P races look like play school. Had that level of contact been replicated in our racing, there would be punch ups, death threats... and these guys are professional racers who rely on this for their livelyhood. Yet here in a "game" with just normal people who are limited by visibility in the game, lack of feedback and non perfect collision physics are carrying on like its a million dollar industry.

There is proof enough here the collision model is not perfect with I claiming I made no contact with N4HS even though this was witnessed and N4HS claiming he didnt feel any contact with me in a different corner, and I believe him, cause thats what he saw and felt.. doesnt mean it didnt happen, it just wasnt experienced from his point of view and thats not his fault.

Personally I think I will sit out the next few races and see what transpires.. this is all generating too much negativity for a just a game.
 
Hold on 4sp you are the appitamy of every holden ute driver l have seen and known.
You do nothing wrong,holden v8 rule,nissans are cheats,blah blah..all losers and l know enough of them.

Im not perfect,l am improving but l do make mistakes like everyone who races in the virtual and the real world,but l dont punt driver either with intent.
I do race in real events over a few years and have had one incident which was with a V8 ute at the Wakefield 300 last year who tried something mindless and sent me into the grass at turn 6 at 130k/h.All ok, then his diff let go in the race in front of me like every typically unreliable holden..I raced karts and never had a problem outside of cowboys being cowboys.You get that.

Like l said before, new car,first time at fuji in the car trying no traction control for the first time, set up was not correct,you we all attacking very hard from everywhere, but just because you were happening to have a race on a public meet with no one having knowledge except your little brigade, does give the right to take over then biatch like little school kids when people dont get out of your way or read your mind.
I have a racing line which works for me and that includes the inside line at turn 4. If you want to come flying in and drop your rear quarter(which l didnt see till it was too late) on the front felt of my car at a difficult part of the track dont start crying over it .
If you were so fantastic as you tend to think you are you would have waited till the ensuing chicanne where there is plenty of room to pass. But you did use this on the next lap when you tried to take me out or did you make a mistake like us mere mortals tend to make.
At the end of the day lm wasting time justifying myself for a pointless reason.

Just to let you know.At the time ,I know l had a shabby race with a few mistakes in a ill tuned car, wishing l had picked the viper so i could join in the competion, so after the race l jumped straight into a viper untuned and tried to find you lot again.After an hour no luck but i did tune it up a bit and had a goodtime abet a few accidents.

But hey it only a game right.
 
Sorry mate, what do you mean by "to put up with the BS" ??? I was running 600 pp like you ;)

Sorry if you feel lonely starting last, its usually my place to start :sly:

OK. You do have to dodge a lot of people essentially standing still when you start last, I'm sure you know that. To be honest though I can see you are a faster driver, perhaps with slipstreaming I stood a slim chance but never got close enough to do that.

Geez the argumenation just doesnt stop... Reading through all the above posts it seems to me that the corner that is consistantly the cause of confrontation at Fuji is turn 4.

Hot lapping is not racecraft and the two a very different skills, unfortunately racecraft is best learnt on a real race track. If you have spent any significant time on a race track you will understand exactly what i mean.

Part of the problem is from drivers who believe:
a) The fastest line is the quickest line
b) If you are on that line then you own the corner

Sorry to say guys, that we are not hotlapping here.. we are racing.
So to dispel a few myths:

- If you maintain the "Racing line" round a track in a close race, you are going to get overtaken. Fuji is a good example where the fastest line (ie maintaining highest corner speed) will leave you open to an overtake move up the inside on several corners(Turn 1, Turn 4 etc).
Why ?
2 reasons.
1) The following car cant determine if you are running wide on purpose or not.. when is "wide" wide enough to execute an overtaking move ?
2) There is a lot of track here, enough to be able to pull up alongside a car taking the wide line or the Racing line, Once there that corner is yours, but the problem in GT5 is lack of visability from both drivers, the driver on the wide line will continue his cornering line and contact will occur.
Solution, and this goes for racing in every single globally... protect your bloody line !! you all have mirrors, you can all hear the car up your arse, if you cannot protect your corner then dont whinge when someone takes an inside line which forces you to have to get off the throttle to avoid contact.

I know most people here have not had the benefit of serious track time and this is simply a skill learnt over time. So lets apply this to Turn 4 at Fuji,
You have a car that you know is hanging off your bumper coming out of turn 3 and you setup for turn 4.. you have 2 choices, take the wide line, fast in fast out and run the risk of the trailing car trying a move, or you hold a tighter line and maintain a slow in fast out corner approach.

- The fastest line is not always the quickest line.. interesting concept yes ?
Now N4HS had a bit of an uneducated remark in a previous post about my corner line and how i would have had a slow exit had I not made contact, but unortunately this is not the case, and if you guys want to do some reading before making claims I can recommend http://phors.locost7.info/phors17.htm as a good start.

The quickest line through Fuji Turn 4 may not be the fastest.. and indeed this is the case as the inside line, slow in fast out, will result in an all up shorter amount of time spent in the corner, but not neccessarily maintaining a higher corner speed... however the exit speed doesnt matter as the time saved in this corner is enough to maintain a lead into the hard braking for turn 5 and also serves to protect your corner... think about it, better still go and try it.

If any of you watched the V8 racing yesterday afternoon you would have witnessed levels of carnage/contact/spinning of cars that make the GT5P races look like play school. Had that level of contact been replicated in our racing, there would be punch ups, death threats... and these guys are professional racers who rely on this for their livelyhood. Yet here in a "game" with just normal people who are limited by visibility in the game, lack of feedback and non perfect collision physics are carrying on like its a million dollar industry.

There is proof enough here the collision model is not perfect with I claiming I made no contact with N4HS even though this was witnessed and N4HS claiming he didnt feel any contact with me in a different corner, and I believe him, cause thats what he saw and felt.. doesnt mean it didnt happen, it just wasnt experienced from his point of view and thats not his fault.

Personally I think I will sit out the next few races and see what transpires.. this is all generating too much negativity for a just a game.

I know all of what you just said. And I have no problems with what transpired between us. As I said to Ardius I'm toning my driving way back for future Showdowns and taking everything in my stride from now on.(Except of course the only 100% obvious punters). If I don't think someone is close enough to overtake or the corner is a corner no one would try an overtake I don't take a defensive line. That just means they'll be in too good a position for overtake on the next corner as I'd get a slow exit. Please don't stop racing, I want the chance to redeem myself as a casual cruisy racer.

B24
Hold on 4sp you are the appitamy of every holden ute driver l have seen and known.
You do nothing wrong,holden v8 rule,nissans are cheats,blah blah..all losers and l know enough of them.

Im not perfect,l am improving but l do make mistakes like everyone who races in the virtual and the real world,but l dont punt driver either with intent.
I do race in real events over a few years and have had one incident which was with a V8 ute at the Wakefield 300 last year who tried something mindless and sent me into the grass at turn 6 at 130k/h.All ok, then his diff let go in the race in front of me like every typically unreliable holden..I raced karts and never had a problem outside of cowboys being cowboys.You get that.

Like l said before, new car,first time at fuji in the car trying no traction control for the first time, set up was not correct,you we all attacking very hard from everywhere, but just because you were happening to have a race on a public meet with no one having knowledge except your little brigade, does give the right to take over then biatch like little school kids when people dont get out of your way or read your mind.
I have a racing line which works for me and that includes the inside line at turn 4. If you want to come flying in and drop your rear quarter(which l didnt see till it was too late) on the front felt of my car at a difficult part of the track dont start crying over it .
If you were so fantastic as you tend to think you are you would have waited till the ensuing chicanne where there is plenty of room to pass. But you did use this on the next lap when you tried to take me out or did you make a mistake like us mere mortals tend to make.
At the end of the day lm wasting time justifying myself for a pointless reason.

Just to let you know.At the time ,I know l had a shabby race with a few mistakes in a ill tuned car, wishing l had picked the viper so i could join in the competion, so after the race l jumped straight into a viper untuned and tried to find you lot again.After an hour no luck but i did tune it up a bit and had a goodtime abet a few accidents.

But hey it only a game right.

Well thanks for calling me a loser without even getting to know me. You can't judge a man by the car he drives. I know I make mistakes too, but if I came flying through you, it was either a mistake (of touching the grass kind) or me being punted myself. What's done is done. If we meet on the track again I hope it is under good racing circumstances. I heard you jumped in a Viper, some people seen you driving it I recall. Perhaps you'd like to give a chance for us/me to redeem ourselves and give yourself a chance to show you're as clean and good as you say by entering the next Showdown.
 
I don't think it is fair or realistic for another driver to dive bomb the driver ahead of him who is taking a wide/fastest line.

Even in today's F1 race several drivers tried to dive bomb other drivers at the hairpin who were taking a wide, fast line, and it usually ended up in contact or a near collision.

Here is an example of a driver taking a wide/fast line into a corner with another driver dive bombing him from too far back. The leader turns in to make his corner and the dive bomber hits him.



Juan Montoya wasn't really out of control, he probably would have been able to maintain his line had not Scott Pruett the leader turned in on him, but moves such as that are frowned upon in racing and usually are not tolerated and end up with crashes.

In my opinion it is very bad racing etiquette to dive bomb the car ahead of you going into a corner when you are a car length or two back, especially in the technical section of Fuji at the end of the track that require very wide racing lines to be fast.

Now of course there are exceptions. I fsomeone under brakes, if you have better brakes or a better car then at times it can be acceptable.

I posted this picture in another thread https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=105738&highlight=safe+places

Fuji
Fujipass.jpg


These are the only turns where you should try and pass an equal car that isn't far off the pace or made a mistake.


Turn 3 is like Fuji's 130R and trying to go in there double file is suicide

Turns 4 and 5 have an ever changing radius and trying to pass or go side by side there is too risky to attempt because the radius can change on you in a second and push your car up into the car next to you.

Turns 13, 14, 15, and 16 are single file turns. No reason to try and pass there with equal cars. Trying to pass there without the driver ahead of you making a mistake will usually result in a collision

As the real racing footage shows, don't attemt a pass when you aren't close enough for the driver ahead to see you or you aren't close enough for him to think you will attempt a pass.
 
I know all of what you just said. And I have no problems with what transpired between us. As I said to Ardius I'm toning my driving way back for future Showdowns and taking everything in my stride from now on.(Except of course the only 100% obvious punters). If I don't think someone is close enough to overtake or the corner is a corner no one would try an overtake I don't take a defensive line. That just means they'll be in too good a position for overtake on the next corner as I'd get a slow exit. Please don't stop racing, I want the chance to redeem myself as a casual cruisy racer.

Ok mate.. I'll hopefully see you in the next race but I think I am away over the next couple weekends.. :) and I promise not to overtake so agressively

One last thing, any chance we can move the races so they are not on a Saturday night here in Aus ?? Sunday night would be perfect !!
 
I don't think it is fair or realistic for another driver to dive bomb the driver ahead of him who is taking a wide/fastest line.

Even in today's F1 race several drivers tried to dive bomb other drivers at the hairpin who were taking a wide, fast line, and it usually ended up in contact or a near collision.

Here is an example of a driver taking a wide/fast line into a corner with another driver dive bombing him from too far back. The leader turns in to make his corner and the dive bomber hits him.



Juan Montoya wasn't really out of control, he probably would have been able to maintain his line had not Scott Pruett the leader turned in on him, but moves such as that are frowned upon in racing and usually are not tolerated and end up with crashes.

In my opinion it is very bad racing etiquette to dive bomb the car ahead of you going into a corner when you are a car length or two back, especially in the technical section of Fuji at the end of the track that require very wide racing lines to be fast.

Now of course there are exceptions. I fsomeone under brakes, if you have better brakes or a better car then at times it can be acceptable.

I posted this picture in another thread https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=105738&highlight=safe+places

Fuji
Fujipass.jpg


These are the only turns where you should try and pass an equal car that isn't far off the pace or made a mistake.


Turn 3 is like Fuji's 130R and trying to go in there double file is suicide

Turns 4 and 5 have an ever changing radius and trying to pass or go side by side there is too risky to attempt because the radius can change on you in a second and push your car up into the car next to you.

Turns 13, 14, 15, and 16 are single file turns. No reason to try and pass there with equal cars. Trying to pass there without the driver ahead of you making a mistake will usually result in a collision

As the real racing footage shows, don't attemt a pass when you aren't close enough for the driver ahead to see you or you aren't close enough for him to think you will attempt a pass.


Wow, that sweeping right hander is counted as 2 corners because of the differing radii. I've had people overtake cleanly and done clean overtakes at turn 3, it may not be fast but it does leave plenty of room to run wide or run the inside line.

Ok mate.. I'll hopefully see you in the next race but I think I am away over the next couple weekends.. :) and I promise not to overtake so agressively

One last thing, any chance we can move the races so they are not on a Saturday night here in Aus ?? Sunday night would be perfect !!

Sunday nights make it so hard for me, I have to go to bed so I can get up early for work next morning. Not to mention the entire Sunday night is full of good TV shows I'd like to watch.
 
I couldn't agree more. Nobody owes you anything, and you certainly don't own anything (e.g. racing line) on the track. If you don't defend it, it's going to be taken from you. And people make judgement/steering/braking/etc/etc errors, possibly sending you to the sand trap. Stuff happens. I really don't see the problem as long as a punt is not intentional (a.k.a. meant to kick you off-track). Remember, it's a race, not a beauty peagant. ;) :D Some bumping and grinding is likely to occur. Especially with the crappy hit detection, check this in an offline race to see what I mean. It's going to detect a hit while there still is a huge amount of space between cars. :(

Note: when referring to 'you' I mean 'you' in general, not 'you' in particular. ;)
 
I couldn't agree more. Nobody owes you anything, and you certainly don't own anything (e.g. racing line) on the track. If you don't defend it, it's going to be taken from you. And people make judgement/steering/braking/etc/etc errors, possibly sending you to the sand trap. Stuff happens. I really don't see the problem as long as a punt is not intentional (a.k.a. meant to kick you off-track). Remember, it's a race, not a beauty peagant. ;) :D Some bumping and grinding is likely to occur. Especially with the crappy hit detection, check this in an offline race to see what I mean. It's going to detect a hit while there still is a huge amount of space between cars. :(

Note: when referring to 'you' I mean 'you' in general, not 'you' in particular. ;)

Yeah, I also noticed that in offline the impacts barely have any effect, almost nullified even as though the computer being hit wasn't hit at all. That was one of the biggest shocks to me when I first raced online, a slight nudge is like someone just dropped a nulcear bomb beside your car.
 
I suspect the AI is cheating or driving with all aids on. Or both. ;) :D Also, some cars are very forgiving, an Evo X recovers quite well from hitting grass or sand. Compared to what happens when you do the same with any RWD car it seems a bit strange.
 
I suspect the AI is cheating or driving with all aids on. Or both. ;) :D Also, some cars are very forgiving, an Evo X recovers quite well from hitting grass or sand. Compared to what happens when you do the same with any RWD car it seems a bit strange.

I am almost 100% sure the AI uses Standard physics, wimps.
 
OK. You do have to dodge a lot of people essentially standing still when you start last, I'm sure you know that. To be honest though I can see you are a faster driver, perhaps with slipstreaming I stood a slim chance but never got close enough to do that.

Thanks mate, appreciate 👍

I know that too well... starting behind is difficult in close race we are having.

hope to race with you soon again ;)
 
@ nd 4 holden spd & B24,
I'm hoping that this is the end of your discussion regarding your encounter whilst racing Online. If however, you feel like continuing your discussion further, then please take it to PM. I believe it's time to move on, and to allow this interesting Garage Showdown thread to continue without any further distractions.

Thanks. 👍
 
@ nd 4 holden spd & B24,
I'm hoping that this is the end of your discussion regarding your encounter whilst racing Online. If however, you feel like continuing your discussion further, then please take it to PM. I believe it's time to move on, and to allow this interesting Garage Showdown thread to continue without any further distractions.

Thanks. 👍

All about positive comments and gentlemen's racing from here on in.👍
 
Showdown 2 Official Results

The Lion's Den (5)----------\_________
Dutch Customs (1)-----------/"""""""""""""|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Lion's Den (2)-------------\________888 Tuning
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~888 Tuning (6)------------/
L-Tune (2)------------------\__________|
888 Tuning (4)-------------/

3rd Place: Dutch Customs


Showdown 2 has come to an end, big thanks to all who participated, I hope you enjoyed yourself and we can see you next time.
 
Originally Posted by Sphinx
@ nd 4 holden spd & B24,
I'm hoping that this is the end of your discussion regarding your encounter whilst racing Online. If however, you feel like continuing your discussion further, then please take it to PM. I believe it's time to move on, and to allow this interesting Garage Showdown thread to continue without any further distractions.

Shall do.
 
Showdown 2 Official Results

The Lion's Den (5)----------\_________
Dutch Customs (1)-----------/"""""""""""""|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Lion's Den (2)-------------\________888 Tuning
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~888 Tuning (6)------------/
L-Tune (2)------------------\__________|
888 Tuning (4)-------------/

3rd Place: Dutch Customs


Showdown 2 has come to an end, big thanks to all who participated, I hope you enjoyed yourself and we can see you next time.

When did DC get third?? funny though 5 race wins i got all together, L-T may have lost, but it was a win for me.
 
When did DC get third?? funny though 5 race wins i got all together, L-T may have lost, but it was a win for me.

J-PaP said he'd have no time for the 1-on-1 tie breaker and gave it to Dutch Customs. Shame, I wanted to see that race! So long as you had fun, my garage lost but I think I had fun.
 
You think? You're not sure? :P

I can surely say that I enjoyed it. 👍 Even though I probably would have finished last if J-PaP didn't forfeit the final 1-on-1. ;) :P I'm not a very great-skilled driver.

And of course many thanks to the drivers that supported DC, this wouldn't have been possible without you guys! 👍
 
You think? You're not sure? :P

I can surely say that I enjoyed it. 👍 Even though I probably would have finished last if J-PaP didn't forfeit the final 1-on-1. ;) :P I'm not a very great-skilled driver.

And of course many thanks to the drivers that supported DC, this wouldn't have been possible without you guys! 👍

Yes I think.:lol: Nah, I had fun, but I'll have more fun next time I won't be so focused on victory. Win or lose, I just wnna have some good gentlemen's racing again. Haven't had much of that since the Swift Showdown. The Viper Showdown was good, but I think some of us, or maybe only me, were going a bit into overdrive, and trying overtakes we wouldn't normally, defending line when we'd allow an overtake, that kind of stuff.


Mmmmmmm, next Showdown.:drool::drool: :sly:
 
Yeah bring on the next showdown, can't wait. It is great fun, specially when you are driving to have fun and winning comes second.
 
Yeah bring on the next showdown, can't wait. It is great fun, specially when you are driving to have fun and winning comes second.

I realised that after the first round in this showdown. (Although i did win a couple races) When L-T was knocked out i was annoyed at how my efforts were wasted based on something i had no control of, which incedently happened again which is how L-T lost. But i realised how much fun those races were, and picked myself up and carried on :)
 
We're not getting paid for racing here so if it isnt for fun then why bother right ?

I got shunted badly out of one of the races by a non-player so was happy to cruise back to the finish line and spend the last 2 laps watching the cars blast down the straight.. cheering Wayne on...hooting and hollering. My wife thinks I am too old for this sort of game ;)
 
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