Possible solutions to improving the quality of online racing.

I've posted a couple of threads recently on the quality of online racing. It's pretty clear to me and to a lot of others it's in a state of decline. I love this game and the more success it has in the future, the better it's going to be, with even better graphics, a wider variety of cars, more tracks, vintage tracks, better race controls etc. In my opinion, the online portion of the game is the future of the game, and if it continues to decline, so will the future of the franchise. COD doesn't sell 10billion copies of each version so guys can run around shooting at robots. This game is no different. The ultimate goal is always to race against fellow human beings, be it in a relaxed, friendly environment, or a competitive highly skilled one.

So enough of talking about what's wrong. Let's move forward and talk solutions. Feel free to add anything you think would help but try to be constructive and positive.

First thing I would like to see, is an online racing license system. Something as simple as a Grade A, B, C system would work but the more increments the better. A-E would be even better in my opinion.

Grade C could be taking a car supplied by GT5 on relatively sticky tires, say RH tires, around either a full track in the game or parts of the 'Ring. You need to make a certain time to earn that license. If you cannot achieve a certain time, you can still race online, but only in rooms designated as "no license" rooms. Perhaps 50-75% of drivers should be able to achieve this license.

Grade B would be a faster car on less sticky tires, maybe S2's on the same track or a different track, doesn't matter. Perhaps only 25% of drivers should be able to achieve this license.

Grade A would be a faster car on S1's perhaps and a with a high degree of skill required to master the test. Grade A or whatever the top grade is, should be limited to say the top 10% of drivers.

I don't think it would be hard to figure out how to make the licenses exclusive or limited and how to get the percentages you want. The regular Time Trials provide enough statistical data to figure out a bell curve and what the standard deviations are. PD could turn it into a training thing, perhaps supplying a ghost to run with that runs the given test a tenth or two faster than necessary to qualify so you have something to chase and know what lines to take sort of thing.

Then in each online lobby that's set up. the host can check whatever boxes of levels of license he wants to race against, and only they can get in. Got a bunch of friends that are A liceneses? Open a lobby, limit it to A, they can all get in, and so can drivers of the same skill level.

New driver or new to the game? You can check off all three, or check off only C or perhaps another box that allows only unlicensed drivers to compete so you don't have to worry about someone 10 seconds faster than you in the race.

Ways to get around it? Yes. I suppose if you wanted to sandbag you wouldn't do the test and then could enter unlicensed lobbies and win by a mile. Solution: host boots you..problem solved. Sandbaggin' would last one race and you'd be toast. I think the problem would resolve itself. Got a friend who's an A and he runs the tests for you, even though you're a C? Won't be hard to spot and the host can always boot you if you don't keep up. Won't last for long.

I think this would work. What will help it along is big, exclusive prizes for each license something like:

C License - $1,000,000 and premium, new, modern supercar, only available through license tests. Access to additional seasonals or perhaps enhanced prize levels with already existing seasonals. Higher race winnings online. Ongoing rewards for getting the license even if you don't race much online.

B License - $5,000,000 and perhaps a Tyrell 6 Wheeler F1 car from the 70's again, only available through the tests. Might also entitle you to additional seasonal events, not available to C license drivers and other prize. Or just further enhanced prizes for online racing and seasonals and time trials.

A License - $10,000,000 and perhaps a Fangio driven Ferrari from the 50's only available to A license holders and not for sale or trade. Perhaps additional suits, helmets, vintage style from the 50's, leather with goggles, that sort of thing, something really exclusive to differentiate and make it really worthwhile to get the license. Maybe even exclusive access to certain cars, and to make it fair to lower class license drivers, the cars will only be permitted to race with other drivers of the same class in rooms limited to A licenses.

Special time trials exclusive to A License holders. Enhanced prizes etc. Basically the cream of the crop on GT5, an exclusive club that comes with rewards, prestige etc.

Second thing that would go along with this or replace it, is some kind of online racing ranking system. Would include average finishes, wins, a comprehensive rating system like the NFL quarterback rating which ranks you in terms of laptimes, level of competition (would work in conjunction with license system above), number of drivers in the field, their average laps times etc. PD would have to make it foolproof some someone can't just run races while his A level buddies pull over to the side and let him win over and over. Some kind of algorithm would spit out a number from 1-10 or even 1-100 would be better.

Included in this ranking system would be penalty points for banging, crashing, shortcutting, etc. Severe enough penalties that discourage that sort of behaviour. Again, PD has to make this foolproof, so incidental contact that doesn't result in loss of control on the other driver's part or loss of position is not penalized, and waiting and allowing another driver to continue ahead of you pretty much nullifies minor penalties. The gentleman racer needs to be rewarded and again I don't think this is hard to do. The basis of the system is already there in the collision penalty it just needs to be enhanced.

Your overall driver ranking would be visible to anyone you race with. Hosts would have the availability to limit their rooms to any minimum driver ranking or perhaps an upper and lower limit. You and your buddies are all say 5-7 on a scale of 1-10 so limit the room to 4 on the lower end and 8 on the upper end. So you won't have to deal with less skilled drivers and at the same time, won't get smoked by higher competition.

Last idea I have is an enhanced collision avoidance system. Something that allows the game to mitigate the effects of contact on the leading or ahead driver, and put the onus of responsibility on the following driver to avoid contact. Somehow they'd have to figure out the difference between the following driver making contact and the leading driver swerving into him, but again, I don't think it's that difficult. The game knows what steering inputs you are making of course, that's how it knows when you are turning, wouldn't be that hard in my mind to figure it all out. But I'm not a programmer so I could be talking out of my butt...lol.

My feeling is, that if you make either or both of the above modifications, which are simply compiling statistics for licensing or a driver rating system, the collision avoidance system may not be necessary. It might come in handy for new drivers however and it's something that should get serious consideration.

A long post I know, but this problem is really bugging me, and I've been thinking about this a long time. Perhaps with enough feedback, some more suggestions, we could find a way to forward this to PD, make them aware of just how many of us are out there that desire some real competitive but fair racing at all levels.

In and of itself, I think the licensing and ranking systems provide another valuable dimension to the game. Everyone wants prestige and recognition for a job well done and the license tests and rankings would achieve that. Even if the host had to manually sort through the rankings or license levels of participants in their rooms it would be a big step above what we have now.

So what do you guys think? Any suggestions, alternatives, other ideas?

Maybe something like the SR (safety rating) on iracing?

Perhaps you could flesh that out a bit since only about 30,000 people race iRacing so most of us are unfamiliar with it?

I have doubts your license tests would really filter those out you want to have out. Every static challenge can easily be overcome by practice, practice, practice and it will not mean a lot for the driving skills of that person in another race with another car.

I get what you are saying and it was an interesting read but accidents will always happen. I rarely have contact in my series but thats because I choose my drivers wisely and am not afraid to get rid of someone who is taking the mick. Good luck on your quest but it has a much simpler solution I think.

If I were to come up with one major improvement to online, is a limit to how many times you can leave a race. I'm sick and tired of all the rage quitting morons who quit whenever they can't get pole position.
Simply implement a ban system, so if you quit a online race 3-5 times in 2 weeks or so, you get banned for 1 month. That ought to teach the kids a lesson... I've literally named my lobbies "No ragequit", yet half the people I played with still did it.

Another problem is the terrible censoring when typing messages in the lobbies. Why are names like Tsukuba, or words like army not allowed? I can understand not being able to swear, but even then, if people wants to do that, they can simply use a mic.

About the different licenses for online. I like the general idea, but I'm worried that it might just split up the community too much. And as someone already said. Just because you can master one car, does not mean you won't suck with another.

I'm already against limiting online access. I honestly don't see how it will solve anything. It will just divide online and make it die faster.

But then, throwing in exclusive prize cars/whatever is just too much. Cutting people off from parts of the game is just dumb. It should not be done.

I mentioned in another thread about a safety rating system similar to iRacing for online racing on GT5.

For those who don't play iRacing, in a very basic way it means if you hit someone your rating goes down. If you do clean corners/laps, your rating goes up. There are other things like spin outs and off-tracks which factor in, but I don't think those things would really address the problems we have in GT5 online anyway so I would leave them out and focus on ramming other cars specifically.

Here is a thread that I think has some tremendously great points on a similar vein:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=228957

This definitely pertains to the conversation here, I think.

Z1-AV69

I have doubts your license tests would really filter those out you want to have out. Every static challenge can easily be overcome by practice, practice, practice and it will not mean a lot for the driving skills of that person in another race with another car.

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This is true. No system is perfect. But what we have now is a free for all, with no filtering system whatsover. And to my mind, the wide variety of times posted in the Time Trials, shows that just like in real life, there are a wide variety of skill levels and sorting people out statistically, makes for a better racing experience for everyone. For every skilled driver that laments not being able to race with other skilled drivers, there are drivers who are just staring out, who don't want to race Mario Anderetti and lose by 10 seconds a lap.

To me, I don't care how much you practice, most people have an innate talent level at all things. Some guys can run Indy Road Course in the recent Time Trial under 1:09, some can only make 1:11 and some 1:13. Most things in life, given a big enough sample to draw from will fall into a bell curve of sorts, otherwise the leaderboards would have thousands of people within a half second or so and that just doesn't happen. You have a smaller group near the top and as the times climb so do the number of participants that can reach that time. If I'm a 1:13, I'd sure appreciate being able to run a race online with guys at my skill level, instead of getting smoked by someone who runs 1:07 and destroying guys who can only run 1:15.

Also, I find it hard to believe that anyone that would practice, practice, practice to achieve a certain license, would then go online and be a complete clown in racing rooms. Sure it will happen, there are always exceptions, but you would still have the option to boot people. And if you combined a licensing system with a ranking system, don't you think it would be easier to filter out the malcontents and malicious?

And remember too, it's not mandatory. Anyone could set up a room and still make it a free for all. The ability to filter is an option available to the host.

Exorcet

I'm already against limiting online access. I honestly don't see how it will solve anything. It will just divide online and make it die faster.

But then, throwing in exclusive prize cars/whatever is just too much. Cutting people off from parts of the game is just dumb. It should not be done.

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I don't believe it's cutting anyone off from the game. Anything anyone is doing now, can still be done. Want to create a room for anyone to come and race your X1 at Tsukuba or Daytona? Go for it, nothing would prevent you from doing that. No license, no problem, you can still create any room and do whatever you want. Anyone wants to go online and race they can. What you won't be able to do, is take your C license and enter a room restricted to B and A and crash and bash your way through the first corner. You can make a room just like now and tick off the box that says, "No license required"., and anyone and everyone can come in.

Now there's no limited access at all. But what it will do is allow drivers of different skill levels, high or low, to tailor their own rooms to the kind of racing they want and the skill levels they want to race against. Implementing a driver rating system will also give you additional info as to slower, but clean drivers would be invaluable to those just learning to drive, to still have competitive racing with those they are competitive with.


Thanks for the link Tower, I'll check it out in a little while. The more people we can get on the bandwagon to come up with solutions, rather than just lamenting and complaining about things, the more likely we are to get some action.

Was referring to this

car, only available through license tests.

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I disagree with that more than anything.

So you open a room in your lounge, send an invite to 15 of your closest friends, problem solved. Why do we need GT5 to replicate other systems/games? Oh, you want to race against strangers? Why. On any given week how many strangers do you think Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gorden race against? Or Vettel? Or Kinser? All these guys pretty much race the same guys every weekend, strangers are not allowed! They must prove themselves. So you join rooms and observe the better clean racers and invite them to your friend list and then invite them to your lounge for some good clean competitive racing.

Like others have said, the solution to your problem is just find a group of racers who are in your skill level and do private racing with them. Why even bother racing against complete strangers you can't trust? Why not run with good, clean racers you CAN trust?

I was having the same problem and what I did was join a racing community. In our community we have fun, we laugh, we joke, and we race. But we race CLEAN, HARD, AND FAST! Accidents do happen, true, but if you make contact with someone, you pull over and allow them to regain the spot. Even if you two were racing for the lead and you took the other guy out. You stop and resume behind him. Even if it means the whole field passes you two by.

Our community has license tests that you have to pass in order to run on a particular type of track. We have Rally licenses, Oval/Speedway licenses, Road Course licenses, and at one time a Drifting License and even a Drifting School that was held on weekends.

We have designated racing nights where we all meet up and run different types of events. One event Monday nights. Another on Thursdays and the occasional Saturday night get together. Sometimes I do race in the public lobbies but I have to expect complete carnage each time I do. And when I come across good, clean, fast racers I send them an invite to check out our website and maybe join our community for a race or two. Just trying to reach out to someone who may be thinking the same thing you are..."I wish there was somewhere I could race with good, clean, respectable, fast drivers and not worry about all of the carnage in public lobbies."

Hey Johnny why don't you join our ALMS series? Season 3 is about to start in a few weeks time, and most the drivers are very clean and very fast.

Check the "interest checks" section of the online series board. It's near the top usually.

And I guess we all tend to agree to be very wary of new people for the most part

qwietstorm

Like others have said, the solution to your problem is just find a group of racers who are in your skill level and do private racing with them. Why even bother racing against complete strangers you can't trust? Why not run with good, clean racers you CAN trust?Our community has license tests that you have to pass in order to run on a particular type of track.

We have Rally licenses, Oval/Speedway licenses, Road Course licenses, and at one time a Drifting License and even a Drifting School that was held on weekends.

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So what I get out of that is that the testing I would advocate, is exactly what you are doing and it works. Great! Fantastic! Why would you not want to apply that to the entire game? The whole GTP designation, is the same thing isn't it, testing to determine your skill level and classifying you according to that? Take what they do and apply it to the whole game.

I do race with friends, I also race in a most excellent series, The Cappuccino Cup, but like a lot of people, I'm just not always available at fixed times and days. I work, I have social commitments etc. Like a lot of people, I would like once in a while to pop on and just find a good race and not have to slog through 12 lobbies to find it. For most people these days, time is valuable, and for newcomers to the game and anyone really, the time and commitment it takes to develop a group of friends and to be online when they are online and race is just too big of a hurdle to overcome. We need to find a way to get some of the more casual gamers to have a more successful, more enjoyable racing experience, or GT will be the last game with the letters "G" and "T" in it, followed by any number, that they buy.

And again, the point of the system is, that I don't have to trust complete strangers, the game should tell me how good they are before I enter a room with them. Don't other games do this, track stats, provide rankings? It's not like we're reinventing the wheel here, this has been done before with success. Can't you go on COD and see how good someone is by the kill/death ratio?

Tower Turn 13

Hey Johnny why don't you join our ALMS series? Season 3 is about to start in a few weeks time, and most the drivers are very clean and very fast.

Check the "interest checks" section of the online series board. It's near the top usually.

And I guess we all tend to agree to be very wary of new people for the most part

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I'll check it out Tower, but weekends don't work for me. I'm gone every other weekend usually so I don't register for weekend series because I don't want to take up a spot that could be used by someone who will attend regularly, and if I join I want to contend for the championship. That's why I like the Cappuccino Cup because they run on Tuesdays, Fridays, Saturdays, and the best finish of the week counts whether you race 1, 2 or 3 days. Sometimes I can make weekends, sometimes I can't but it's set up so that it doesn't penalize me or anyone else, for not showing up on a certain time/date.

If your series is during the week, I'll look into it further.

Johnnypenso

I'll check it out Tower, but weekends don't work for me. I'm gone every other weekend usually so I don't register for weekend series because I don't want to take up a spot that could be used by someone who will attend regularly, and if I join I want to contend for the championship. That's why I like the Cappuccino Cup because they run on Tuesdays, Fridays, Saturdays, and the best finish of the week counts whether you race 1, 2 or 3 days. Sometimes I can make weekends, sometimes I can't but it's set up so that it doesn't penalize me or anyone else, for not showing up on a certain time/date.

If your series is during the week, I'll look into it further.

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Friday nights around 8 or 9 so it probably wouldn't work for you. Ah well, at least you're familiar with clean series on GTP. That's what counts.

ConRollins

So you open a room in your lounge, send an invite to 15 of your closest friends, problem solved. Why do we need GT5 to replicate other systems/games? Oh, you want to race against strangers? Why. On any given week how many strangers do you think Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gorden race against? Or Vettel? Or Kinser? All these guys pretty much race the same guys every weekend, strangers are not allowed! They must prove themselves. So you join rooms and observe the better clean racers and invite them to your friend list and then invite them to your lounge for some good clean competitive racing.

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In the off season, 7 time World Driving Champion, raced 50 hp go karts. Not against Nigel Mansell or Lewis Hamilton (okay maybe in a charity or staged event) but at the local club. Were they just random drivers who had enough money to buy karts and went out and smashed and bashed their way to the top? No, they were licensed, well qualified, experienced drivers who had proven they had enough skill and control to race at that level. Were they all his buddies? No, in essence most of them were probably strangers, although they could become friends you never know. In some ways, what he was doing to stay sharp, is akin to one of us entering a random lobby of strangers, yet knowing they are qualified to race with the group.

I agree, yes, "they must prove themselves". Yes!!! That's exactly what I'm advocating, proving yourself through license tests, or a rating system or whatever. You did it by racing in room after room, finding good people and sticking with them. Great. I'm just advocating that the game help us along in that regard, nothing more.

Johnnypenso

So what I get out of that is that the testing I would advocate, is exactly what you are doing and it works. Great! Fantastic! Why would you not want to apply that to the entire game? The whole GTP designation, is the same thing isn't it, testing to determine your skill level and classifying you according to that? Take what they do and apply it to the whole game.

And again, the point of the system is, that I don't have to trust complete strangers, the game should tell me how good they are before I enter a room with them. Don't other games do this, track stats, provide rankings? It's not like we're reinventing the wheel here, this has been done before with success. Can't you go on COD and see how good someone is by the kill/death ratio?

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I would not want to apply it to the entire game because it would turn off so many people that the Gran Turismo series would come to an end. People wouldn't buy the game anymore and then you'd be forced to race the AI in previous versions of the game.

What you are saying about the rankings makes sense, but the problem is this is NOT COD. The same principles applied in COD cannot and should not be applied to a racing game. Some of the things that can happen to you on track can affect your ranking and is totally out of your control. Someone spins in front of you and you hit them...you lose rank points. Some butt head gets mad because you passed him and takes you out on purpose...you lose rank points. So now you have a low ranking and did nothing wrong. And are forced to race in rooms with other people with low rankings because you can't get into the high ranking rooms.

There are some very good points above.

I think that the licence idea has merit, but the counter of limiting access is very valid. What if my friend is an excellent racer, but just picked up the game and hasn't done it yet? The good deal would be the safety rating. Like some have said, no limits on who races where. That's what I like.

I personally think the major focus needs to be on the syncing of the lobbies. Too many lobbies have too much drag on them. The opponent's car isn't always where it seems. You cannot drive a phantom sometimes. You need to drive the actual car. Some of this has to do with the individual's internet/bandwidth, but I'm sure there's ways to buffer it through the server.

The quitting... yes, some of that is stupid, but we cannot eliminate exiting as sometimes it's just flat out needed. Again, the rating is where you can see this.

I like your idea, it's perfect for people who want good clean competitive racing but who can't commit to a racing series because of other obligations.

The licence system is a great idea, but the ranking system would have to be very carefully worked out. I often race with a group where we switch off penalties & heavy damage because sometimes the game in it's current form penalises the wrong driver unfairly. If the ranking system could be implemented fairly I would have no problem with it.

I do not like the idea of some cars only being available to drivers with certain licences, in my opinion that will exclude some players from certain parts of the game.

I like to see someone coming up with ideas to make the online experience more fun for everyone, even if the idea ain't perfect, it's a good starting point. Good ideas are kept simple, maybe you should put this in the feedback section of this site, if enough people vote for it, it could be implemented in GT5 or even GT6

So, basically a iRacing system is what the OP is asking. I'll have to admit that the system works very well in iRacing. Not perfect by any means, but overall provides the basis for clean/competitive racing.

For the people concerned with the system being fair, well you probably wouldn't like it. The driver hitting another driver causes both to recieve incident points no matter who is at fault. Then if you lose control by that contact(even if not your fault) theres more incident points. Guess what? Hit something or go off track after car contact and loss of control(not your fault) more incident points. Technically, the system isn't "fair", but it does work and provides some very good racing 90% of the time.

When I first got into iRacing this system really annoyed me. After a week or so though, I began seeing why its like this. Its not only the person at fault that can be to blame, but where you put yourself on the track also can be the fault. If theres two cars in front side by side going down the straight, what do you do if you have a run on them? If you can pass them before the corner then thats acceptable, but if the whole car cannot clear the other two the best choice is to ease out of throttle and just follow. Many do not do this in GT5. There are times when things get too "hairy" in iRacing and I just back out a ride a few laps till it settles down. This leads to the next problem though.

In GT5 online is everyone is pushing all the time. Also many think they are the "next big thing" in GT5. Or people just think the world revolves around their car. Also I think the short sprint races add to the problem also. If you start 10th and have 3 laps to get to first, look out if that guy is wanting to win at all costs. Another thing is online racers need to zoom the track map to the 2 or 3 setting. Shows that there are cars beside you. Some say that this is not an option because they don't know what turn is coming up, seriously?. If thats the case, these types should not be racing online.

Some sort of license/penalty/damage system would definitely work. I just don't think the GT community is ready for something like this. Heavy damage to an extent works well. If someone hits you then both get permanent car damage. if two people crash then hit you or you hit them then you get damage. Some say its not fair. Really in a way its like an incident system, but with damage. iRacing damage is severe like the heavy damage setting in GT5, but worse. Just a slight bump can cause you to be steering 45 degrees to right just to go straight. I'm not saying GT5 needs to be like this, but I don't think majority want these kind of features. Many GT5 players are casual players and implementing this would probably hurt the community more than help it. Just my opinion.

Also like to add really quick, GT5 online stability would help leaps and bounds with the clean racing by itself. That needs to improve before anything.

qwietstorm

I would not want to apply it to the entire game because it would turn off so many people that the Gran Turismo series would come to an end. People wouldn't buy the game anymore and then you'd be forced to race the AI in previous versions of the game.

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How do you know? Maybe this is what people are really looking for is a way to rank people and race against people of equal skill and experience. Maybe it's random lobbies full of X1's and crashing and banging in every corner that will bring the game to an end. The option of hooking up with friends will always be there, but where do you find these friends? Most of us found the initially through random online lobbies, where we slogged through a bunch of rooms to find good hosts and good drivers.

The other side of it is, and I'll keep repeating this ad nauseum, is that the open side of the game won't change. You could still open up and participate in any "open" lobby, just not in the ones restricted by rank or license. Nobody loses the ability to do anything, other than compete at higher levels until you've proven the ability to be at that level.

jubbyboi617

There are some very good points above.

I think that the licence idea has merit, but the counter of limiting access is very valid. What if my friend is an excellent racer, but just picked up the game and hasn't done it yet? The good deal would be the safety rating. Like some have said, no limits on who races where. That's what I like.

I personally think the major focus needs to be on the syncing of the lobbies. Too many lobbies have too much drag on them. The opponent's car isn't always where it seems. You cannot drive a phantom sometimes. You need to drive the actual car. Some of this has to do with the individual's internet/bandwidth, but I'm sure there's ways to buffer it through the server.

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Your friend has to prove himself. If he's that good, he can go into any license test, run a decent time and voila, he's got a top license. Nothing would stop him from doing that. No he won't be able to buy the game on Tuesday afternoon and race an F1 car that night but he can't now anyway, he has to level up to get the car.

McKiernan

I do not like the idea of some cars only being available to drivers with certain licences, in my opinion that will exclude some players from certain parts of the game.

I like to see someone coming up with ideas to make the online experience more fun for everyone, even if the idea ain't perfect, it's a good starting point. Good ideas are kept simple, maybe you should put this in the feedback section of this site, if enough people vote for it, it could be implemented in GT5 or even GT6

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I'll check out the feedback section but this is where I thought the majority of people went to look at this stuff. Yes some people would be put off by the idea of exclusive content, but not me. Some extra prestige should go along with certain achievements. We already have stuff like that now. You certain tests you get certain cars. Can't pass the test, don't get the car.

plate88

So, basically a iRacing system is what the OP is asking. I'll have to admit that the system works very well in iRacing. Not perfect by any means, but overall provides the basis for clean/competitive racing.

For the people concerned with the system being fair, well you probably wouldn't like it. The driver hitting another driver causes both to recieve incident points no matter who is at fault. Then if you lose control by that contact(even if not your fault) theres more incident points. Guess what? Hit something or go off track after car contact and loss of control(not your fault) more incident points. Technically, the system isn't "fair", but it does work and provides some very good racing 90% of the time.

When I first got into iRacing this system really annoyed me. After a week or so though, I began seeing why its like this. Its not only the person at fault that can be to blame, but where you put yourself on the track also can be the fault. If theres two cars in front side by side going down the straight, what do you do if you have a run on them? If you can pass them before the corner then thats acceptable, but if the whole car cannot clear the other two the best choice is to ease out of throttle and just follow. Many do not do this in GT5. There are times when things get too "hairy" in iRacing and I just back out a ride a few laps till it settles down. This leads to the next problem though.

In GT5 online is everyone is pushing all the time. Also many think they are the "next big thing" in GT5. Or people just think the world revolves around their car. Also I think the short sprint races add to the problem also. If you start 10th and have 3 laps to get to first, look out if that guy is wanting to win at all costs. Another thing is online racers need to zoom the track map to the 2 or 3 setting. Shows that there are cars beside you. Some say that this is not an option because they don't know what turn is coming up, seriously?. If thats the case, these types should not be racing online.

Some sort of license/penalty/damage system would definitely work. I just don't think the GT community is ready for something like this. Heavy damage to an extent works well. If someone hits you then both get permanent car damage. if two people crash then hit you or you hit them then you get damage. Some say its not fair. Really in a way its like an incident system, but with damage. iRacing damage is severe like the heavy damage setting in GT5, but worse. Just a slight bump can cause you to be steering 45 degrees to right just to go straight. I'm not saying GT5 needs to be like this, but I don't think majority want these kind of features. Many GT5 players are casual players and implementing this would probably hurt the community more than help it. Just my opinion.

Also like to add really quick, GT5 online stability would help leaps and bounds with the clean racing by itself. That needs to improve before anything.

Click to expand...

Honestly, I don't know anything about iRacing, but since writing this post a couple of my online buddies have said basically what you said above. In my opinion, PD could do a better job than iRacing because there's more money involved here. Sales of GT5 are in the $100's of Millions, iRacing has 30,000 members.

And you're right on about putting yourself in a situation where you could get damage or be involved in an incident. The onus isn't always on one person, it's on both most of the time. Sticking your nose in where it doesn't belong, going two wide through some fast esses on cold tires, trying to outbrake someone in a narrow hairpin, all things that are technically legal, but questionable as far as racecraft and race smarts go.

The whole 3 lap sprint thing is a large source of problems as is the "reverse grid" starting lineup. Getting a group of guys to race more than 3-4 minutes is like pulling teeth sometimes. You also get lots of quitters when you have longer races. Start with 9 end with 4...lol. That has more to do with the mentality and maturity of the participants and not something you can change by regulations...lol.

I like the idea of licensing, but purely as a ranking system with appropriate rewards. I rarely race in open rooms but maybe that would help some of your issues. The lounge idea for me solves any personality issue. I race with a couple of groups that have wicked fast, average and slower/less experienced players and that's what works best for me.
Interesting topic though, look forward to the opinions forwarded.

I can see the merits of your plan, but there are also drawbacks - all harking back to the old saying that you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Have a look in the clubs and leagues section, find a good one and then add the racers you find are good, you'll then find there's generally others online who fancy a race. I'm a member of the Grumpy British Racing Club which was started here and we have both organised and casual races, it works fantastically well and the guys that organise it are brilliant.

The most simple way to audit drivers is to offer a positive fedback system. A feedback system where only positive feedback can be left to avoid an abuse in the system. If I go to online lobbys, if I have a good clean battle with one or several racers then they can leave a + feedback for me and I can for them. A single person can only leave a + feedback once per competitor and possibly have a daily limit of how many times he/she can leave a positive feedback. Dirty divers woud not get positive feedback.

Then when you open an online lobby, you can set the room to only allow drivers that have a particular feedback rating. + 50 + 10 + 100 + 1000 all user defined. etc

Until something like this comes (if ever) you should do this, it works well for me. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=229785

Clart,

Actually a buddy of mine and I were kicking that whole "series of private lounges" idea around and it could work quite well if it's managed and set up well to begin with. Any tips on what's working or hasn't worked for you? How long have you been doing it?

Its been working for the past several months for me fantastically. Its so easy. You just have to create the amount of accounts you need, based upon the friends or members in a group/clan/club you have, and what you do. (comps etc) Name them accordingly etc.

Lets just say I create 1 account. I call the account GT5_Casual racing. I boot up the account on GT5, (so a save game is created) I set up the private lounge via settings in GT5 op lounge options.

I add myself as a friend to the account. Then I send FR to all of my Buddies on GT5.

Now the key is, so that we can all race together, and for all of my friends if they also want to race with each other, without need to be friends with each other, then they only join the private lounge of GT5_Casual and to not jump in there oqn lounges.

Now I can delete all of my PSN friend should I wish, and only have GT5_Casual as a friend, and all of my previous GT5 friends could also delete all of there friends should they wish again with the exception of GT5_Casual. But regardles of me now only having 1 friend, and all of my friends only having 1 friend, we can all still race with each other as we are all friends with GT5_Casual but again we can only race with eachother if we only Join the Lounge of GT5_Casual.

So every person has just 1 friend with 100 possible people to race againts should they only join the lounge of GT5_casual.

Now of course you don't need to delete all of your friends, but the point is, that for you to race with your friends, and for your friends to race with your friends, you all dont have to be friends with each other to make this possible, if racing out of a private lounge.

Now to create 1 account between 100 racers is not enough as only 16 limited to a lobby. So if you have a group of 100 regular guys it is best to create at least 5-6 accounts, name them accordingly and get all of your friends to add all of the accounts as well as adding your own PSN name to the accounts.

Finally, none of the accounts you create ever have to be online or playing GT5 for this to work. The only difference is that you will never see a yellow dot if members are in the room, nor the green dot to suggest the account is online, but just click on the coffee cup and you will see people inside if any are in there of course. This can be confusing for some people, so you must reiterate this constantly to members that are added to your accounts, as they will never find you or others inside as the accounts are always offline.

These are the accounts that I have created for my club. we have about 60 guys added to each. full lobbies most nights.

The great thing about me managing the accounts is that I can audit them, so if we have dirty drivers I can delete them, and they wont be able to race again with us.


GBRC_Casual (For casual races, just turn up and join in)

GBRC_RaceSchool (Tuition etc)

GBRC_Testntune (Not much racing, just testing and tuning of cars/events)

Below for official divisional events

GBRC_Lobby_1 (Scheduled race events/GBRC_Casual spillover)

GBRC_Lobby_2 (Scheduled race events/GBRC_Casual spillover)

GBRC_Lobby_3 (Scheduled race events/GBRC_Casual spillover)



I have passed my idea to the C.R.A.P group. the OP has created accounts. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=229656

The main thing they have to fix first are the connection problems. Before I configured my router manually & set up a fixed IP adress for the PS3, I was able to join maybe 1/10 of the lobbies. 9/10 of the time I got booted out after 1 minute.

That's quite annoying & for sure the main reason why GT5 online is so dead. You shouldn't need to google for the solution & have some network skills to fix these problems. PD should at least put a troubleshooting guide in their game if they are not able to fix these issues. 👍


The online lobbies should be more easy to setup & the restrictions should be more obvious for everyone, before you join a lobby. For example:


Beginner:
- all aids allowed
- no tire restrictions
- no penalties
- tire wear: Off
- boost & slipstream: High

Advanced:
- restricted aids (ABS: 1, TCS: 1, ASK: On, driving line: On, everything else: Off)
- restricted tires based on performance points (0-350pp: max. comfort soft, 350-500pp max. sport soft, 500-999pp max. racing soft)
- weak penalties
- tire wear: Off
- boost & slipstream: Medium

Profi:
- restricted aids (only ABS: 1 allowed)
- restricted tires based on performance points (0-450pp: max. comfort medium, 450-600pp max. sport medium, 600-999pp max. racing medium)
- hard penalties
- tire wear: On
- boost & slipstream: Off


If that's not possible for PD, then they should at least put the option in to sort lobbies by tire type & you should get a full preview of all restrictions of one lobby when you click on it.

The way it currentlly is, is very disappointing. If you are looking for sport tire lobbies, you have to scroll through all lobbies to find one. And if you find one, it's mostly a free run or drift only lobby. Nothing against RS tire lobbies, but there are too many & on RS tires there is really no challenge at all for you. If you want more challenge, you are basically lost & GT5 online is nearly dead for you.


Racing, drifting & free run lobbies should be separated (click down menu to select from). Again, so tired from scrolling through the server browser to find a racing lobby in the mess of free run & drifter lobbies.


Automatic race start should be standard. So tired from waiting for the race start & it's really not funny if you have more "waiting time" as racing time.


Penalities for ramming is pretty fu**ed up! I mean it happens so often to me that one trying to overhaul me touched me a bit & guess who is getting the ramming penality? Yes I've got it, not the one who did the dirty maneuver. Very very disapointing!!!


Wrong-way drivers & street blockers should getting booted out of the race after driving for 10 seconds in the wrong direction & for not moving. Thing done.


And there have to be done against the allmighty lobby hosts. It's a fu**ing joke if they can kick you just because you are from the "wrong country" or you are faster as them.


GT5 Online Racing really needs a improvement. The way like it's currently, is very disappointing & quite dead for me. I thought I could have a blast with GT5 online after completing my car/item collection, but no, it's already dead!

Not going to spend more money on GT5 DLC for a dead game. Went now back to BF:BC2 (PC). Sure the cheaters are annoying as hell, but BC2 has 3 years after release still enough full servers to choose & without moronic hosts, kicking you for beeing better or having a good round.


GT5 Online Racing:

ZeGermanBastorD

The main thing they have to fix first are the connection problems. Before I configured my router manually & set up a fixed IP adress for the PS3, I was able to join maybe 1/10 of the lobbies. 9/10 of the time I got booted out after 1 minute.

That's quite annoying & for sure the main reason why GT5 online is so dead. You shouldn't need to google for the solution & have some network skills to fix these problems. PD should at least put a troubleshooting guide in their game if they are not able to fix these issues. 👍


The online lobbies should be more easy to setup & the restrictions should be more obvious for everyone, before you join a lobby. For example:


The way it currentlly is, is very disappointing. If you are looking for sport tire lobbies, you have to scroll through all lobbies to find one. And if you find one, it's mostly a free run or drift only lobby. Nothing against RS tire lobbies, but there are too many & on RS tires there is really no challenge at all for you. If you want more challenge, you are basically lost & GT5 online is nearly dead for you.

Click to expand...

Some very good points. It is pretty sad that there is such limited information about lobbies before you join them. I see no reason why you can't view all the limitations set up in any room before you join. And why is the room title so short? Would it hurt to include another 10-20 characters. That alone would help a lot.

Here johhny, just created a club with my private lobby system in place. a small example of how to implement such an idea that will cater for 100 members. Please encourage all of your PSN friends to sign up.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=230587

Not to be too negative but pretty much the only thing I agree with in this thread are the suggestions re. enhanced lobby searching functionality and improved collision detection.

To be honest much of the rest seems like a fine way of fragmenting the community and limiting progression (unless you are already a "l33t racer" with a full friends list).

Yes I know it would be optional but it's an option that I think is not only unecessary but also one that could further divide the clean "casual" racers from the clean "hardcore" racers. In my eyes it benefits no-one but the elitests who like to thumb their noses at anyone slower than them already.

Licenses

You seem to base these entirely on how fast one can get around track. In my very humble opinion, this simply isn't a good gauge of skill in racecraft. An indicator maybe, but far from the be all and end all.

I know several people who consistantly put in great times in the time trials but whose race craft is (self admittedly) so-so. Hitting the same line time after time after time simply isn't directly comparable to being able to dynamically change your lines in accordance with the race situation.

Yes there are people who can do both but hitting an arbitary time round an arbitary track on arbitary tyres does not equal "pro racer". You only need to go and get a race license for real to know that.

From the MSA with regards to the ARDS test - "You must be able to demonstrate that you are competant circuit driver and that you can lap consistantly in a safe and controlled manner amongst other 'traffic'. You must also show your knowledge of the racing line and ultimately assure the instructor that you are safe and able to enter your first race."

Note the very specific mention of traffic and the complete lack of any timed element.

On the other side of the coin I know a few people who are basically aryton senna-esque in their racing skills but ONLY race online and wouldn't care to put the time in on "boring hotlapping" just to get a license in what is essentially a video game. In their limited gaming time they simply want to hit the track and race.

Equally some of us enjoy racing with folks substantially quicker than ourselves because that's how we learn, this system would potentially limit our ability to that.

The group that I generally race with [in the public lobbies] contains drivers of all abilities and everyone respects that and I would like to think everyone - even the fastest of the fast - have learnt something from racing with folk of all abilities.

Us slower guys are learning from the faster guys both directly (better lines, car control and techniques) and as a natural result of being slower (clean defensive driving is a skill in itself AND perfectly acceptable). I'd also like to think the faster guys are learning indirectly from racing with us slower guys. Having to get past us makes them have to deviate from their "comfortable" lines and gives them some enhanced knowledge on where is a good place to make a pass and where isn't... and maybe, where they didn't already have it, it teaches a little patience.

i-racing esque safety rating

On i-racing this works great because to a large extent the wheat has already been sorted from the chaff. You are unlikely to pay the kind of money and put in the kind of time required to take advantage of all of the features of i-racing unless you are already pretty serious about your virtual racing.

GT5 simply isn't the same kind of deal (hence the huge disparity in user numbers).

Yes, there are people who are pretty serious about the game and their racing but ultimately for a large percentage it is a game, played for fun, from a sofa, with a DS3.

A game like GT5 should be inclusive of all levels and cater to these "casuals" just as much as it should the "hardcore".

Anecdotally I race with a couple of guys who love r
acing in clean rooms but now and then equally like heading into the dirty shuffle rooms and letting off some steam. Equally, in our clean rooms sometimes when it has got a little tense or we all just need a giggle we will slap on the old "strong" boost and draft and do 10 laps round Indy "no holes barred" for a laugh.

Private Lobbies

Yes this is a great way to race organised events (I really enjoy racing with the GBRC for example) but I think for casual racing having all the clean racers disperse into private lobbies damages the online experience for the casual clean racer who is not necessarily well connected and perhaps doesn't have a load of clean racing GT5 friends. This in turn damages the whole community as potential new clean racers have too high of a hurdle to climb to find other clean racers. Without fresh blood communities become incestuous, cliqué and ultimately slowly die, look at any countries aristocracy.

"Clean racers beget clean racers".

Open a public lobby with a few mates, be strict as a host, stick to your guns, kick the punters and let the clean racers stay. Once the majority of the room are racing clean the punters will soon stop bothering at all and either not even start a race or just leave of their own volition.

Not only does this mean you and your mates get some clean racing but it also lets new racers into the joy of a fast clean race.

I have added so many people to my friends list from all over the world just through visiting the public lobbies. Yes there is a core group of us and we tend to race together most of the time but we do it in public lobbies. We are constantly adding new folks to our lists as and when they join the room and prove that they are not out to ram their way to the front or generally cause trouble. Yes as a host (or one of the "core") it takes a little more work as you effectively have to race and steward at the same time, reporting misconduct, asking people to stay clean etc etc but it is oh so very worth it.

As much as I like racing with the shuffle crew, the GBRC or any other particular "group" I find it simply gets a bit stale when you are just racing the same people night after night after night with no new blood being added.

So in my humble opinion the best way to clean up the public lobbies is to get out there and bloody well race in them!

Anyway, that's just my tuppence on an interesting subject. Take care all.