GT5 AI superbad ?

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SkylineR88
Wow playing vs AI is hardly my type of fun!
online multiplayer is where its at!
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Racing against the AI could be VERY FUN if they were programmed properly.


mister dog
But generally they still suck bigtime wich is a huge shame, seeing that people have been complaining about this since GT1...
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Tower for PD Kaz: "Improve AI"
PD Kaz: "Unable"
 
ogrammed properly as in they hit you back when you hit them or vice versa ?
and they talk to you too!

maybe in 50 years time mate
 
SimonK
I don't need to watch any videos trying to 'prove' anything, I've played both games and I can tell for myself the GT5 AI is worse.
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True. I think the AI isn't stupid. Bit it isn't realistic and competitiv Enough. Need an example?
The dont Fight in A Spec. It feels like a Time Race with some Traffic. And this is bad.

Yes Bad AI. Worst AI in Game History?Dont think so.
 
The AI could be good in GT5, just like a lot of things in GT5. It's not too bad in arcade where you can adjust their ''aggressive-ness''. The problem is in regular A-Spec and seasonal A-Spec, PD/Kaz have deliberately made the AI completely useless and VERY slow, but only when going around corners while the player is near them.

If you watch a replay from the AI's perspective, they do OK until the player is near them, then they just completely STOP in the corner and let you by. That hasn't always been the case.

The reason the reason the AI are like this is because of the stupid way the A-Spec seasonals are set up now, with huge long train of cars spread out all over the track, with you trying to catch the first car while passing all the other cars as they act like roling ROADBLOCKS in the corners.

PD have changed the way the AI behave many times since GT5 released, and how they left them is just their way of giving up, taking the easy way out. Remember grid starts? What happened to them? I'll tell you what happened, they gave up on the AI, so they had to abandon grid starfts in GT5 with AI, because they wouldn't take the time to get it working right. I guess B-Spec, helmets, and racing suites are more important.

You want to see good AI? Go buy Dirt 3 and run a few of the races where you are racing a group of AI.. like in a rally-cross race. If the AI was like that in GT5, single player would be awesome and grid starts would be possible.

Online multiplayer is NOT the answer for bad AI in GT5.. good AI is the answer. If they could get it to act like the AI in Dirt 3, they would be on to something, but KAZ and PD just want to take the easy road, and give up on GT5 A-Spec, AI, and single player career mode in GT5.
 
I wouldn't say is bad. Too easy, yes. But bad, no. The A.I now respects your driving line, avoids collisions and overall it seems much more responsive to your actions. But again, bad? NO! Remember GT4? That was BAD A.I. not only it was too easy, but it was a pain to compete against them due to them acting like you werent there.

My only gripe is, again, difficulty. Lately I've been finding myself with A.I drivers slowing down and getting out of your way to let you pass. Not very competitive...
 
The AI on GT5 is miles better than that of Forza 4; I've played both. Mainly because the AI in Forza strictly sticks to the racing line. It doesn't matter if somebody swerves in front of them, or a big collision happens right in front of them; they keep truckin' right into the mess. I found that I was getting pit maneuvered unintentionally because the AI did not know to get out of the way, or form a new racing line. And, the AI intentionally sabotage themselves. In several races, I saw AI drivers not even bother to brake for a corner, and go careening into the grass. Even if I restarted and did the race again, the same exact thing would happen. And that's no fun; it means that everything that the Forza AI does is pre-planned, or scripted. In GT, if you restart a race several times and do it, you get different outcomes each time, but in Forza, it's always the same. That's what's wrong with the Forza AI: it's all artificial. But then again, AI is artificial, but at least in GT, it doesn't always seem like it. :)
 
The AI are terrible in GT5 and that includes in arcade mode with aggressiveness set to 10.

The lack of grid starts and 'chase the pidgeon' format of the seasonals are because the AI is terrible.

But it will never be fixed and here's why...

Racing games that attempt to simulate the racing experience have always been in a niche market on any hardware (PC or console). This is because they are (or at least used to be) skill based games. Skill based games traditionally take time and practice to master (much like real life racing).

Modern games have very high development costs and if they have an online component high maintenance cost for the online servers. Therefore games developers need to maximise their audience in order to maximise their returns.

So games producers don't want to create a hard and challenging racing simulator to only appeal to a niche market. Instead they produce games which are easy to play (I know several 6-8 year olds who have no problem playing GT) and offer easy rewards (level systems, trophies, easy victories) and collectibles, artificially metered out through unlockable content. This is a well know psychological tactic for inducing a form of addiction and PD (and everyone else) apply these techniques constantly these days.

Unfortunately such techniques are directly opposed to the philosophy and values of racing. For example in any given racing event (single race or championship) there are many competitors. As an example take a field of 20 competitors, how many can win the race? Only 1.

In real life since the vast majority of racing drivers don't win, racing must offer some other form of reward otherwise people simply wouldn't do it.

That reward is the racing itself. Using skills and knowledge 'racecraft' to do the best you can in a field of equally equipped and competent competitors all trying to do the same thing.

The offline experiences offered by both GT5 and FM3/4 simply fail to achieve this because they pander to the mentality that the only reward is victory and thus make winning a completely trivial task achievable by small children with virtually no racing experience. They are not racing games, they are levelling and collecting games.

There is one console racing game which was hard to drive and master and where the AI were competetive (and aggressive) enough for you to be able to start halfway down the field, spend the whole race battling with just one or two competitors, make up a single place and feel like you achieved something afterwards. That game was S2U and look at how well that sold.

Neither GT nor FM will ever be offering you a competetive offline experience as long as they are dedicated to using game design theory to offer you artificial reward systems to keep you playing.

On the other hand I don't think PD are actually capable of offering a decent AI field even if they wanted to, otherwise we probably would see or be able to choose grid starts and the seasonals would use a race format rather than a glorified licence test.
 
Dooglers8
The AI on GT5 is miles better than that of Forza 4; I've played both. Mainly because the AI in Forza strictly sticks to the racing line. It doesn't matter if somebody swerves in front of them, or a big collision happens right in front of them; they keep truckin' right into the mess. I found that I was getting pit maneuvered unintentionally because the AI did not know to get out of the way, or form a new racing line. And, the AI intentionally sabotage themselves. In several races, I saw AI drivers not even bother to brake for a corner, and go careening into the grass. Even if I restarted and did the race again, the same exact thing would happen. And that's no fun; it means that everything that the Forza AI does is pre-planned, or scripted. In GT, if you restart a race several times and do it, you get different outcomes each time, but in Forza, it's always the same. That's what's wrong with the Forza AI: it's all artificial. But then again, AI is artificial, but at least in GT, it doesn't always seem like it. :)
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I dont think so. GT AI do the Same if you Race Oval Tracks.
You just watched YT Videos of Forza 4 AI. Admit it :)

It doesnt matter anyway. Forza and GT AI are both superbad.

@ mister_serios

True Story. I can't understand why they dont Add a Easy//mid//Hard// SIM AI difficulty Levels. Maybe the are Not Capable of doing so. Dont know
 
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mr_serious
The AI are terrible in GT5 and that includes in arcade mode with aggressiveness set to 10.

The lack of grid starts and 'chase the pidgeon' format of the seasonals are because the AI is terrible.

But it will never be fixed and here's why...

Racing games that attempt to simulate the racing experience have always been in a niche market on any hardware (PC or console). This is because they are (or at least used to be) skill based games. Skill based games traditionally take time and practice to master (much like real life racing).

Modern games have very high development costs and if they have an online component high maintenance cost for the online servers. Therefore games developers need to maximise their audience in order to maximise their returns.

So games producers don't want to create a hard and challenging racing simulator to only appeal to a niche market. Instead they produce games which are easy to play (I know several 6-8 year olds who have no problem playing GT) and offer easy rewards (level systems, trophies, easy victories) and collectibles, artificially metered out through unlockable content. This is a well know psychological tactic for inducing a form of addiction and PD (and everyone else) apply these techniques constantly these days.

Unfortunately such techniques are directly opposed to the philosophy and values of racing. For example in any given racing event (single race or championship) there are many competitors. As an example take a field of 20 competitors, how many can win the race? Only 1.

In real life since the vast majority of racing drivers don't win, racing must offer some other form of reward otherwise people simply wouldn't do it.

That reward is the racing itself. Using skills and knowledge 'racecraft' to do the best you can in a field of equally equipped and competent competitors all trying to do the same thing.

The offline experiences offered by both GT5 and FM3/4 simply fail to achieve this because they pander to the mentality that the only reward is victory and thus make winning a completely trivial task achievable by small children with virtually no racing experience. They are not racing games, they are levelling and collecting games.

There is one console racing game which was hard to drive and master and where the AI were competetive (and aggressive) enough for you to be able to start halfway down the field, spend the whole race battling with just one or two competitors, make up a single place and feel like you achieved something afterwards. That game was S2U and look at how well that sold.

Neither GT nor FM will ever be offering you a competetive offline experience as long as they are dedicated to using game design theory to offer you artificial reward systems to keep you playing.

On the other hand I don't think PD are actually capable of offering a decent AI field even if they wanted to, otherwise we probably would see or be able to choose grid starts and the seasonals would use a race format rather than a glorified licence test.
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Unfortunately, I must agree with the major theme of your assessment.

However, PD already provided the best solution to this problem in GT4 with the A-spec points system,
which enables the player by choice, to engage the race on a wide span of difficulty levels.

Even so, the AI was not all that improved, but to some degree under this arrangement it did not have to be.

SkylineR88
ogrammed properly as in they hit you back when you hit them or vice versa ?
and they talk to you too!

maybe in 50 years time mate
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The "hit you back AI", has already been done in a game, and by EA of all people.
A earlier version of their Nascar racing had this very type of AI.
Not only that but it was individual, wherein each AI driver had a different level of reaction depending on how you raced them. Some reacting more agressively than others.
This was the best AI in a racing game I have experienced to date.
 
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The AI is fine until you pass a car, that car then just totally gives up the fight and backs off! How dull, online is where its best to race
 
SuperCobraJet
Unfortunately, I must agree with the major theme of your assessment.

However, PD already provided the best solution to this problem in GT4 with the A-spec points system,
which enables the player by choice, to engage the race on a wide span of difficulty levels.

Even so, the AI was not all that improved, but to some degree under this arrangement it did not have to be.
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I agree I think GT4 was better, I don't think the AI is too much different, but the points system and restrictions at least made it more challenging.

I think PD have only ever really 'tweaked' the same AI algorithm from GT1 over & over again. You notice this with the unnatural boost the lead AI car has always been given through every edition of GT. It was bad from the start and all the tweaking has only made some slight improvements in some areas (and sometimes made other aspects worse).

The algorithm needs to be ditched and something fresh designed from scratch.
 
I think the real problem of GT5s AI is because it is simply no challenge to race against them.

I don't mind if a game's AI respects my driving line (as shown in the vid of FM4) or other details of their driving behaviour.

I'd like to have a race where I do not know in advance if I'm going to win or not.

Therefore the AI needs to..

1. be as fast as I am
2. do mistakes as I do
3. encounter (technical) problems (as in real life)
4. get tired during a long race

It IS POSSIBLE to make them CHALLENGING for both, the "kids" and the "hardcore gamers" also.

Here's my solution:

You are forced to do some "Qualifying laps" before the actual race.
During your qualifying the game "detects your"
A. Laptimes
B. Braking points
C. Cornering speeds
D. Tyre wear
E. etc.

and adjusts the AI right to your driving "style".

And for randomness it would even give some AI drivers, sometimes an advantage or disadvantage over you.

Additionally an AI in the lead (and you are in 2nd), on the last lap, could even completely fail because of a blown up tyre, accident whatever.

This way you will never know if your'e the winner or not UNTIL you cross the finish line.

You wouldn't care about online if it were like that, believe me..
 
Overall GT5 AI improve should:

- Damage on cars in A Spec/Seasonal events (this is big thing where people tend to drive really hard either smash AI cars or drive through them, either proper damage system, you will think twice before you passing AI cars)

- Be more agressive (if you are driving beside them, either your nose is in front or behind, they should not completely brake and let you go right pass)

- Be more competative (I notice once you pass the AI cars with the same spec car or even low and they are gone, AI should be able to come back from behind and try to over take you, but they are not doing that. Even their cars is much faster car than mine with same tire)

- Proper Tune Cars (I know this has nothing to do with the AI, but it will be exciting to see your opponent have proper tune car racing with you)
 
ch3ng
I dont think so. GT AI do the Same if you Race Oval Tracks.
You just watched YT Videos of Forza 4 AI. Admit it :)

It doesnt matter anyway. Forza and GT AI are both superbad.

@ mister_serios

True Story. I can't understand why they dont Add a Easy//mid//Hard// SIM AI difficulty Levels. Maybe the are Not Capable of doing so. Dont know
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No, I actually have an XBox 360 and a copy of Forza 4.
 
1241Penguin
So the AI can avoid obstacles, but they can't avoid ramming into you as you race alongside them.
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Are you suggesting that in real life racing no contact ever occurs between cars?

Or that no-one ever has their race ruined by another driver's mistake?

Having AI that never have accidents or make mistakes when racing on the limit would not be a very good simulation of real life racing.
 
And are you trying to suggest that having opponents ram you on purpose repeatedly is realistic?

Of course there is contact in real life, just not as much as GT5.
 
1241Penguin
And are you trying to suggest that having opponents ram you on purpose repeatedly is realistic?

Of course there is contact in real life, just not as much as GT5.
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What racing series are you watcing? If it is a certain open wheel series then okay you have a slight point. However, that isn't the model one should run any simulation by unless it were a sim for that very league.

Also mr_serious didn't seem to be implying that you get rammed repeatedly. Actually to be honest I myself have never had that happen to me on GT5, if anything the AI move out of the way and slow down just so they don't ram you or make any sort of contact.
 
Perhaps "ram" was a strong word. The AI in GT5 would actually drive into you when you take a corner, for instance.
 
1241Penguin
Perhaps "ram" was a strong word. The AI in GT5 would actually drive into you when you take a corner, for instance.
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Like I said I haven't had this problem before the only time I've seen it happen is when I try to block off the line or force the AI to drive a different race line. During that test I was hit, however when racing them in normal conditions I haven't had a problem with being hit like past GT games where it seemed you could actually anger the AI.
 
1241Penguin
And are you trying to suggest that having opponents ram you on purpose repeatedly is realistic?

Of course there is contact in real life, just not as much as GT5.
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No I was saying despite all the problems GT AI has, being repeatedly hit by them is not one I have experienced or seen in any videos.

If anything I think they are far too tame. They don't react as if they are trying to win a race at all.
 
mr_serious
No I was saying despite all the problems GT AI has, being repeatedly hit by them is not one I have experienced or seen in any videos.

If anything I think they are far too tame. They don't react as if they are trying to win a race at all.
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^ Exactly the point I was trying to make.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
^ Exactly the point I was trying to make.
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👍 I should have read your posts before replying to his! :dunce:

Ulitmately we need options for the AI from easy win mode to hardcore aggressive reality mode.

Unfortunately the hardcore mob who might be willing to suffer being banged about a bit by the AI at times (as long as they are fast & competitive) are probably a minority and PD makes more sales by concentrating on the graphics rather than realistic racing - which makes me sad.
 
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If the AI could at least put in a similar or equal performance to the player when in identical cars it wouldn't be such a problem. The fact that when your up against an AI using an identical car (or similar PPP) the difference is so noticable. If people only want easy wins they could still tune the car to be quicker or give us AI difficulty levels in A-spec.

While it's great we're still getting new content from PD and fixes I think the surrendering AI should have been fixed by now. It really does ruin A-spec events at the moment.
 
There's so much that we don't know about GT5's game engine. How many cores it's using up on the cell, or how much processing is being dedicated to the AI.

Could it be better? Yeah of course.

But I also understand programming AI to react to the random moves of a human is not as simple as baking a cake.
 
sumbrownkid
There's so much that we don't know about GT5's game engine. How many cores it's using up on the cell, or how much processing is being dedicated to the AI.

Could it be better? Yeah of course.

But I also understand programming AI to react to the random moves of a human is not as simple as baking a cake.
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Yes but PD isn't a bunch of bakers either. Here is the other issue, how does one go from one game of GT5 then to the console of it and have quite different races against AIs?
 

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