Forza 5/6 vs GT6 (See First Post Before Posting)

  • Thread starter espeed623
  • 1,727 comments
  • 141,358 views
Don't apologize. I got what you were saying. As a long time Forza racer/hotlapper I can tell you you're not alone at all in your opinions of the physics and specifically how the cars feel like they're running on glass smooth tracks most of the time. Many share your opinion. Forza does many things well in it's physics, but lacks in other areas. Same as GT. The reality is this argument can't be won by either side and any trying to claim so are just fooling themselves.

It's a subjective thing, personal preference as to which engine is more "realistic". To me, compared to GT, and especially Race Pro, the cars on Forza feel disconnected from the racing surface. I haven't played GT near as much since GT2, but when I play GT5 I get much more of a sense of the feel of the road than I do on Forza. Which is why I feel the physics on GT are slightly better. Still well short of what I feel is the standard bearer for console physics..Race Pro. That's my opinion, others will be different.

The suspension in Forza does need work. No one is denying that. But if the "connected feeling" whatever that means, is somehow better for you in GT5. that's your opinion, but it's probably due to the over dampened suspension, poor tire physics, and inaccurate Pacejka curves.

I don't see how something being more realistic is subjective at all. If something is, under the same circumstances objectively measured to be behaving more closely to real life then I would say that's evidence (proof if you will) that it is more realistic in that regard.

What Scaff is trying to point out is that there is nothing you guys are bringing up that has shown GT5 to be more realistic in those regards. If it can please show it or accept the evidence for what it is.

With that said, Forza 4 is not perfect. So it shouldn't feel totally realistic either. But feel is totally subjective, and to say something feels more realistic doesn't mean something is more realistic. It just means your ability to measure things by feeling is flawed if proven otherwise.
 
To be clear, I'm not of the mind that the physics engine in GT5 is better than that of FM4. I make no bones about FM4's objective superiority. I very much enjoy FM as it is my preferred series of the two.

I do, however, believe that within the one context I gave (even though I misspoke: mentioning "bumps," dreaded "intangibles" and the possibility of other areas of GT5's superiority) "the compression and rebound of the suspension over [...] curbs," GT5 feels subjectively better to me.

All I can say is our feelings are horrible measuring sticks.
 
Oh you mean the same species that, you know, get carried away and maybe indulge in murder and other violence when they are passionate?

1 - Doesn't make it okay.
2 - False Logic
3 - Logical fallacies = uncool

You mean like the straw man fallacy that you just committed?
 
Funny how you rarely post on this board, and when you do, you post gems like this.

Cause I have nothing to say between both games, no point. I just felt fear from the arguements in here. :scared:

But I noticed something though. Are you checking out how many times I post between here and GT's threads? I mean, my post shouldn't bother you that much right?
 
Cause I have nothing to say between both games, no point. I just felt fear from the arguements in here. :scared:

But I noticed something though. Are you checking out how many times I post between here and GT's threads? I mean, my post shouldn't bother you that much right?

I don't check your stuff, but I've come to know your post through various threads, so I'm sure he does the same. I could see how some people may disagree with you and are ready to challenge you when they see your name. :nervous:
 
I don't check your stuff, but I've come to know your post through various threads, so I'm sure he does the same. I could see how some people may disagree with you and are ready to challenge you when they see your name. :nervous:

Yeah I know. Makes me become very nervous when it does. Gotta be very careful. :scared:
 
Cause I have nothing to say between both games, no point. I just felt fear from the arguements in here. :scared:

But I noticed something though. Are you checking out how many times I post between here and GT's threads? I mean, my post shouldn't bother you that much right?

Your inability to add to any conversation on this forum is what bothers me.
 
Maybe GT5 provides a more "connected" driving experience, depending on personal preference or subjective experience...but it's not more "realistic" for anyone. It's true, Gran Turismo provides more noticable feedback from the suspension than Forza Motorsport 4. But the cars in FM4 behave closer to reality than in GT5. They move more like the real thing. That's not subjective. It's provable, and Scaff has already given the evidence.

I don't think "realistic" is the right choice of word, quotation marks or not.

I think people are using their opinion as undisputed fact in this thread. There is nothing provable about which physics engine is better, more realistic or somehow move more realistic. It's all very subjective and the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I like Forza, it's a better game. But they're both just that...video games. Neither is a example of perfect simulation and never will be. If they were, real racing teams wouldn't spend millions of dollars on simulators, they'd be playing Forza or GT.
 
Your inability to add to any conversation on this forum is what bothers me.

Oh really? Okay than how about this? How about you forget about me and focus on what's going on here and the forums.

There, does that still bother you? Not trying to be rude or anything so please don't take it serious. It's just funny as if you're stalking me of how many times I post on each boards...
 
I think people are using their opinion as undisputed fact in this thread. There is nothing provable about which physics engine is better, more realistic or somehow move more realistic. It's all very subjective and the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I think this is the problem. If people think it's all subjective there is no point. It's not. A physics engine is objective. Real physics are objective. This topic is as unsubjective as it gets. There is really no room for feeling things or vague terms that are hard to pin down.

Forza 4 beat GT5. What will happen in the next round is not yet clear, but it will certainly be provable when both games come out.
 
Let me see if I have this right:

Option 1) You add to the conversation.

Option 2) You make snide remarks, add an emoticon, add nothing to further the conversation, and I (we) ignore it.

Option 1 seems to be the better choice for the integrity of this forum.
 
I think this is the problem. If people think it's all subjective there is no point. It's not. A physics engine is objective. Real physics are objective. This topic is as unsubjective as it gets. There is really no room for feeling things or vague terms that are hard to pin down.

Forza 4 beat GT5. What will happen in the next round is not yet clear, but it will certainly be provable when both games come out.

While I tend to agree with you all the time, I still agree with you...see what I did there.

But seriously, I think it will become a bigger cop-out as GT seem to lose their bearing in the world of sim racing. More and more people will come forward and use this idea that one can't gauge the physics of sim racing and thus by disclaiming the possibility they create a non-argument that is pro-GT/PD. So it really does a discredit to reality by saying it can't be measured (which it can and has) and their just video games so give them slack and just have fun.
 
I think people are using their opinion as undisputed fact in this thread. There is nothing provable about which physics engine is better, more realistic or somehow move more realistic. It's all very subjective and the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Eh... Kinda. When someone says "Forza feels more realistic that GT" that is an opinion. However judging by the information we have now, GT6 is still behind FM5. (I'd be willing to say it's behind FM4 in the physics department) From what we've seen GT6 doesn't model a lot of things that FM4 already did. The only thing really that GT6 has over FM4 is how the suspension reacts. FM5 is going to improve on the physics which means that GT will be left behind. I'm hoping PD focuses on the physics next time around. If I could have a mix of GT and FM physics with the accuracy of the cars and tracks GT provides then that would be a great game.

Which brings me to another point. The tracks. I remember hearing that Forza widened the tracks to play well with Xbox Live. You can tell because everything just feels off. It doesn't seem right. You look at other games and everything seems in proportion, however Forza almost seems as if the tracks are too big for the cars. Likewise the tracks seem too vibrant. All the colors seem too vibrant. I feel that GT got the way that colors look in the real world better than any other game. Real world is kinda bland unless you're looking at a screen. Forza just looks, off. I don't know what it is, because the models from the exterior are top notch (Not so when you get to the interior, everything is too big again with many cars) but it's something with the way the rendering is done. It looks too pretty, like it's showing off the graphical power more than trying to look real.

My final point is how it is to drive the cars. GT feels boring. The sounds are lifeless, you have no sense of understeer in the wheel. (Seriously what is this? I can never tell when I understeer with a wheel) However, I like feeling dips and bumps and the car itself. Forza's FFB is kinda, blah. It's strong and feels nice but only exists to tell you where the grip and weight transfer are. Someone brought up a point saying that Forza's tracks are smooth. That is not the case and even the smoothest of tracks in Forza has bumps showing up on the suspension telemetry. The only problem is you don't feel those bumps. GT's wheel reacts realistic towards these dips and bumps. When you drive over a dip in the road you feel your wheel pull, why doesn't it do this in Forza?

However everything else is better in Forza driving wise. Physics, sounds, even the sense of speed. I feel like I'm at my limit in Forza, I feel like I'm going 100 MPH when I'm going 100 MPH. In GT it's lifeless. You feel like you're going 40 when you're really going 130 and bouncing off the limiter. The limit isn't felt. It feels just the same as going round a bend safely. It's only until you go over the limit that you feel it, and by then you're correcting.

Each game has it's strengths and weaknesses. I'm basing this off of what we have. (GT6 and FM4) Let's be realistic here, things that have stayed the same from FM1 to FM4 will stay the same in FM5. Don't tell me that the laser scanning will make a difference. It didn't between FM3 and FM4 when they said they were laser scanning the tracks. Which game do I personally like better? Neither. It's impossible to choose for me because each one does something better than the other.
 
Can you do this in Gt6?


298660_464794710227208_1992808657_n.jpg


spyshots-mclaren-p1-spotted-testing-again_3.jpg


mclaren-p1-gtr-concept.2000x1333.Mar-18-2013_12.48.34.780905.jpg
 
Crispy
Don't tell me that the laser scanning will make a difference. It didn't between FM3 and FM4 when they said they were laser scanning the tracks.
Tracks in Forza have never been laser scanned until FM5. He's a short video on how they recreated Hockenheim using photos and GPS.



Here's how iRacing laser scans their tracks (and this is the level of detail we should expect from Forza 5).
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=403084340826
 

Which brings me to another point. The tracks. I remember hearing that Forza widened the tracks to play well with Xbox Live. You can tell because everything just feels off. It doesn't seem right. You look at other games and everything seems in proportion, however Forza almost seems as if the tracks are too big for the cars. Likewise the tracks seem too vibrant. All the colors seem too vibrant. I feel that GT got the way that colors look in the real world better than any other game. Real world is kinda bland unless you're looking at a screen. Forza just looks, off. I don't know what it is, because the models from the exterior are top notch (Not so when you get to the interior, everything is too big again with many cars) but it's something with the way the rendering is done. It looks too pretty, like it's showing off the graphical power more than trying to look real.
Whiel I would agree that istorically FM has been overblown, particulrly in contrast it did improve a lot for FM4 with soem of the overcast tracks.

However as far as tracks being too wide, well that would actually be track. The 'ring is too wide in FM and always has been, interestingly however that's not a T10 model, but one they inherited via MS from the PGR series. It is however a serious oversight that they have never redone it over the years.




My final point is how it is to drive the cars. GT feels boring. The sounds are lifeless, you have no sense of understeer in the wheel. (Seriously what is this? I can never tell when I understeer with a wheel) However, I like feeling dips and bumps and the car itself. Forza's FFB is kinda, blah. It's strong and feels nice but only exists to tell you where the grip and weight transfer are. Someone brought up a point saying that Forza's tracks are smooth. That is not the case and even the smoothest of tracks in Forza has bumps showing up on the suspension telemetry. The only problem is you don't feel those bumps. GT's wheel reacts realistic towards these dips and bumps. When you drive over a dip in the road you feel your wheel pull, why doesn't it do this in Forza?
Sorry but steering is in reality hardly affected at all by primary ride (which is what your describing), low frequency suspension changes of these types are dealt with by the springs and dampers and are felt with the body rather than transmitted via the steering (your body and arms may then move the steering but its not the other way around), its only when these become low frequency and high amplitude that they may affect the steering and again this would still be less distinct that the changes felt through the rest of car.

Consider a humpback bridge, at lower speeds you feel it through the car yet the steering is not affected at all (yet the suspension is working), as speeds increase you start to feel it through the steering but still not to the same degree as through the body of the car.

The only way to correctly simulate these forces is via a shaker rig (and that's a rather expensive and large solution) as such sim developers have always struggled with this one.

PD long ago opted (and have stuck with) the more involving and exciting, yet less accurate route of throwing it all into the steering FFB, works OK with a controller as its rumble rather than FFB. However it plays havok with correct steering feel on a wheel and is one of the causes of the need to fight the wheel at high speeds (which is so overblown its silly). This is in my opinion on of these magical 'GT has better feel' things that gets thrown about.

T10 when down the less involving and less exciting, but more accurate route of showing this via cockpit movement. It does lead to some people finding the FFB from FM a little involving. It does however provide a cleaner interpretation of the feedback that should be present, particularly with a wheel.

Now neither is 100% the right way of doing it, but I would rather take T10's take on how to show primary ride over PD's, its the slightly more realistic route and provides a far cleaner route for the FFB that should be present (self aligning torque changes and secondary ride feedback) to be interpreted.
 
I think people are using their opinion as undisputed fact in this thread. There is nothing provable about which physics engine is better, more realistic or somehow move more realistic. It's all very subjective and the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
There are dozens of provable things regarding which physics engine is more realistic and moves more realistically. Cars behave in very specific ways in the real world; they're governed by the laws of physics like everything else, and the ways they can navigate their environment are limited to specific actions. These are objective things that you can easily demonstrate in any game or simulator. "Does this action follow the laws of physics or not?" It's a simple question.

If you count the number of things done right and the number of things that are wrong or missing, FM4 scores more points than GT5. That's what we mean when we say a game is more realistic than another.
 
There are dozens of provable things regarding which physics engine is more realistic and moves more realistically. Cars behave in very specific ways in the real world; they're governed by the laws of physics like everything else, and the ways they can navigate their environment are limited to specific actions. These are objective things that you can easily demonstrate in any game or simulator. "Does this action follow the laws of physics or not?" It's a simple question.

If you count the number of things done right and the number of things that are wrong or missing, FM4 scores more points than GT5. That's what we mean when we say a game is more realistic than another.
Then maybe the few points that GT score weigh more in the final experience?

Something does not compute in that realism score when you see this at 3:45 and find that what he is describing for the real car behaviour is almost exactly to how drives in GT5.

 
Then maybe the few points that GT score weigh more in the final experience?

I'd firmly say no. In fact it's hard to come up with list of definite GT pros for physics when it comes to GT5 vs FM4.
 
Then why the real tests like the above says otherwise?
Maybe because a "real test" on the Nordschleife, which is entirely different in the game than it is in real life, will always give you strange results when discussing physics?
 
Why does FM4 get the better ratings on 90% of gamesites?
Let's not drag website ratings into a discussion about physics. Most reviewers couldn't tell which one is more realistic and likely give better scores to what they think is the better game. A good livery editor doesn't improve the physics, though ;)
 
One thing FM4 does well and GT5 has never done for me when playing it is a sudden loss of rear axle grip and the car spins out due to all the load going over the front. My best FM4 moment was this happening in a Ka and collecting the spin before it hit the Armco. Knowing this is in the model and the general way the FM4 cars tend to feel up on their toes and responding to weight shifting makes it so much more involved than 5. I like 5, but it's a lot more rigid in terms of car behaviour.
 
Back