♦SNAIL WRRC (CLOSED)PS4 

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lessen
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Just looked a few pages back... Oh! I didn't actually post how I felt about this league as it was my first Project Cars league race. So first of all, thank you @Lessen for introducing me into your league! I wouldn't be here without you PMing me from the [Spec] Racing thread. I had lots of fun during all 4 races, and I hope to race with you guys... soon. I will be very inactive until probably around mid June, where I have my summer break. Yes, 5 and a half months from now. If I get to be as fast as I am in GT6, I hope to meet you guys somewhere in the "seasonal" leaderboards, I think it's called the Driver Network Community thing? School is the biggest factor, due to my timezone (UTC +1) and the day that this league is held, I can't possibly race from 3AM to 5AM and then go to school at 8AM. So all I want to say is I hope to come back faster, stronger, and mostly, higher in this league, but till then, have fun guys, hope the league grows as it has a lot of potential!
 
General%20Announcement_zpssunv3eju.jpg


Season 6 Round 2 votes have been compiled and a new car has been chosen. The Ford Sierra RS500 has been dropped in favor of the Ford Mustang Boss 302R1. This weeks races and future provisional races are now posted.

Season%206%20Round%202%20Results_zps8nwddjfh.jpg~original


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@SCCARACER36 - Let me know when you have free time, i'd like to work with you on getting you up to speed in-game wise. You have the RL experience :)
Thanks for the offer of help I'll send a FR then I think I'll try to follow @SGETI 's post about FFB and see if that helps. I mentioned in a prev post about a feeling of "spinning out", probably misspoke and really meant sliding off the track, not that sometimes I do give too much throttle and the car does a snap oversteer.
 
@Lessen - I see we have a Non-Points race at the end of the month, care to explain a little?

I sure would!

I want to align our seasons with the calendar months just to make it a bit easier for everybody to keep track of, so what we're going to do is have a little fun with a different type of event on the 5th Tuesday of any month. These events can be anything really. That's something we can discuss as a group. 👍

Jan. 26 (getting ourselves aligned with the calendar)
Mar. 29
May 31
Aug. 30
Nov. 29
 
I've read many many threads about FFB since Proj Cars release last May. It seems that there is many different theories as what they should be.
Every time I try something supposedly better my wheel gets much worse and I have to start from scratch again.
Is there anybody that's using a Thrustmaster T150 that can give me all the global settings they use for this wheel?
Right now the Global settings I have make the Ginetta totally undriveable (I haven't tried any other cars yet)
 
I'll take the #64 Iridium Mustang livery please.
@SCCARACER36 the global settings are only half the equation,the individual car FFB settings are a large part of car handling,I'm still figuring it out myself but it makes a big difference
 
Hey Lesson, I will be on PC a little later , I would like to join your practice session tonight. I will lookfor your invite.

Cheers to all.
 
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If you don't think people take this game and FFB setting seriously, Give this article a read. But first I suggest getting an extra large cup of coffee or your favorite beverage, wear comfortable clothing, and have a pen n paper at the ready. Anyone who has a T300 he gives his settings at the end. Will be trying these later today. Right now I need to get up and walk around to loosen up.

Original thread and author, maybe easier reading format.


http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sh...B-tweek-used&p=1204620&viewfull=1#post1204620


Thanks for that picture!

It gave me a nudge to point out my findings and thoughts. Starting with some basics about how the primary forces Fx, Fy, Fz, and the secondary force Fm, plus "canned" forces SoP-lateral and SoP-differential translate into a torque that moves eventually the FFB-Wheel.

Most of what i put together is of course well known here, though for FFB starters it might be nice to get a bit info as a one-pager. And for some guys my FFB settings at the end of this post may be interesting.

AND I still wonder about Body/Gut simulation and how Fm (Mz) - being adjustable - fits the logic of the physic model? See side notes below.



Fx, Fy, Fz are straight force vectors, Fm is a torque force. (I allowed myself to add the Fm Force (pink), see picture below).

Fx, Fy, Fz is measured / given at the contact-patch of the tire.

These 3 forces, resulting from - and effecting - friction between track and tire at the contact patch, describe all possible actio and reactio forces happening between the car's tire(s) and the surface of the track.

The 3 forces transform into Fm.

The torque strength and direction of Fm (equivalent to Mz) depends on the size and position of the tire's contact patch towards the road surface, thus depending on the tire-built and its friction-character, the car's geometric constructional parameters like "camber", "caster", "tow" and "spindle arm ("Ackermann") angle", plus environmental conditions like tire pressure, temperature, slippery of the track, etc., plus - last not least - the steering angle (that you do or don't control ;-)

That Fm - as a result of those many adjustable parameters and conditions computated by the sim's physic engine - represents the Torque Force that makes your steering wheel turn and rumble. After it got treated and tweaked by the many FFB modules that shape that Fm force to your wishes: See side note below.

When Fm is obviously a derived force as a result of how Fx Fy Fz hit the tire and suspension, you may wonder why Fm can be set individually. Well, I wonder too! See my note below.

However, leaving that question aside, the picture also shows nicely how SoP-Differential (as scaling of the rear vertical load effect, which is actually the difference between right and left load on each wheel) and SoP-Lateral (Fy at the rear wheels) comes into play. Though remember, when mixing the SoP forces into the FFB signal, be aware you add forces to your FFB which in reality aren't be represented through the steering rack. (In a indirect way yes, but not directly). BTW: I don't think that the light-blue Fx forces in the picture are represented by the adjustable parameters?

While these basics seem to be quite simple, why is it admittedly so difficult to come up with a suitable baseline FFB setting or good settings in general at all? And why are the settings not really compatible as as soon as you change the hardware (console, pc, wheel) and the person behind the wheel ;-)? And why didn't SMD provide a set of ok-default settings, beside the not-so-ok default set as it is?

The answer lies probably in the fact, that 'cause and effect' appear to be a static affair when you look at the modules and the vectors. But the forces actually build up, fade away, overlap, and counter-act in fragments of milliseconds. Thus creating complex frequency patterns over time that feed the entire steering construction (real, or simulated) trough different stages of the signal chain. The Fyxz forces translate - through rubber, racks, cogs, rods and joints - in many ways into the torque delivered to the steering wheel.

In comparison to such real mechanical force transformations a SIM tries to simulate the same effects by computation of forces that come from a math/physic model. The SIM FFB represents a "system" where each component of the signal stage interacts with all its other components, therefore being a swinging, oscillating, system in whole: A Multiple DOF Spring Mass Damper System. (DOF = Directions of freedom. Here, with car vehicle dynamics with 6 directions: x,y,z, yaw, pitch and tilt). This much in theory. Practically pCars doesn't fully computate such a system, but even while simplifying a lot of things, the pros and cons of such a complex spring-damper-system come into effect in a way that can be quite confusing: see note at the end. I also attached a picture illustrating a row of masses / modules connected with dampers and springs.

That explains why tweaking the FFB is far from simple: You change amplification or damping (smoothing) of just one component (e.g. module "Tire Force", or Relative Adjust Gain") and it effects the entire chain of signals from the tire's contact patch to the steering wheel and the entire way back. That is one of the reason why "Damping" plays such a role in pCars FFB configuration and calibration. You ever wondered why you can even choose to set "LINKAGE" as "weight" and "strength" of your own arms holding the steering wheel? Even your body with your arm mass and strength is a part of the Spring-Mass-Damper-System that oscillates depending on the frequency patterns running though it back and forth. Your arms are as much a source of force input as the force on the other side of the chain coming from the friction between road surface and tire.

Side Notes:

Why is Fm an adjustable input force?

Theoretically it seems to me that the developers could have left apart Fm as fourth force to be adjustable, since IMO Fm results from above mentioned parameters. While it's pretty clear why you want to make Fx Fy Fz adjustable for the player, I don't know why the developers offered the possibility to set Fm as an input force as well, since it's not a primary force, but a kind of derived force. I guess the devs wanted to offer a more direct possibility to set the Fm force, instead of just keeping it completely depending on all the other parameters. But thinking it back and forth IMO by making Fm adjustable it seems to me you kind of fumble with the logic of the entire physic model.

Any further insights are very welcomed!


Gut/Body Sim?

So what about the "Gut/Body-Simulation" (the parameter section above the SoP section)? Does anybody know what's the matter with it? I tried it several times with the Ruf 8 GT3 at Watkins Glen. It doesn't seem to work properly. Yet, it seems to create completely wrong effects. (You can easily find that out by setting all other forces to zero, only checking out the gut forces...)


Low damping values?

I always wonder that most guys dial in quite low Fxyz damping values. Don't they get a rough, "grainy" FFB feeling? If i damp e.g. Fz less than 30 i always get a "grainy-ness" feeling (like "ripples" or sand between cogs and belt of my T300). The same with the other forces, depending on different cars. E.g.: The Lotus 49 Cosworth open wheeler has terribly strong Fx "grainy-ness" that needs quite high damping value.


Signal chain and clipping.

FyFxFzFm > TireForce > Master spindle scale >> RAG > soft clipper > scoop > steering gain >> X >> FFB Master >> Wheel. (True or not?)

(Remark: Due to mathematics and logic the order of FxFyFz and Tire Force multiplier doesn't matter, therefore the attached picture from the official guide pdf can look different. Also the 'steering gain'module wasn't part of the picture at that time.)

Please note where the "X" = FFB telemetry graph reads its input. It can't be explained often enough (for console gamers): Clipping can be detected with the HUD telemetry and must be avoided at any stage but also before the signal reaches the Master FFB (in configuration section of the game). Master FFB must be seen (GrimeyDog pointed that out many times) as a "Volume-Knob", that "hands over" the signal that comes from the last module (steering gain) to the console output and from there to the wheel hardware.

That output signal from last stage module "steering gain" should be "leveled" to full dynamic range from 0 - 1, equivalent 0 - 100%.
100% = when yellow telemetry FFB curve hits with its peaks the top of the frame when cornering right, and hits invisible bottom line at half of the hight of the yellow frame when cornering to the left). Then Master FFB serves as last multiplier stage that delivers signal to the wheel. (comparable to an analoge amount of voltage). It's quite the same as with audio signals: If you crank up a very low signal that doesn't use the full dynamic 0-100 range you just amplify a lot of almost nothing, therefore lifting up the "noise" as well. The other way round, if the the signal was too high before, therefore clipping, by trying to lower the already distorted signal with the master FFB you don't get rid of the clippings, you just make them less strong.


Clipping and how to dial in RAG, RAB, RAC in an unexpected way.


Be aware that clipping can happen at all stages. Once happening you can't eliminate it by the following stage(s). Be also aware that "saturation" doesn't have to be necessarily a clipping at 100%. Saturation can also mean that a signal processor stage/modul like RAC relative Adust Clamp levels (compresses) signals to a value of anything between 0 - 1. Try it out, you will find an almost flat corridor line of forces in the telemetry hud, if you set RAC e.g. to 0.4. Actually one of the reasons you should carefully watch out what your'e doing when manipulating the RAG, RAB and RAC.

My tip: Try out to set RAG to 1.5 or higher, RAB to 0.02 - 0.04 (instead of 0.98 what's mostly recommended), and RAC to 2.00 (to avoid any unwanted limiting) you may be stunned how lively and "free-ed" your wheel gets, while keeping the "sharpness" and "accentuation" that you wanted from the RAG in the first place, but without the "clanking" that often comes along with RAG and long RA-Bleeding. The reason for it lies in a differential equation first degree math, where the faster bleed times lead to faster delta time "packages" making the RAG curve softer (smaller saw teeth) without loosing the accentuation of the original force curve.

One of the other welcomed effects of RAG is that due to its math behind it creates stronger Kerb-Rumbles and similar Fz effects actually without the need of (much) Fz. Instead, Fy and Fm (and also SoP -Diff) start to create effects very similar to Fz effects. That is in so far interesting because Fz forces have a counter-facing (aka called negative or inverse) effect to the torque of the wheel. E.g. you turn left into a corner, Fz makes the wheel go counter-clockwise (towards the corner), instead of counter-pushing clockwise - which what you'd rather expect from FFB. I believe there is a good reasons for that "inverse" torgue effect, but higher Fz values (when the car does weight shifts) can also contradict your wish to feel the wheel's 'weight' during cornering because due to its inverse torque Fz can "eat up" the Fy (and SoP-Diff) effects. (Meaning you get lively road feeling with nice kerb rumbles, but your wheel lightens up to much at the same time while cornering.)

BTW: Be aware that RAB (Bleeding) turns the RAG module on, when you set RAB to any other value than 0.00.


SoP yes or no?

I fully understand when people say SoP doesn't belong into the mix, due to good reasons. In my older posts i was so puristic to even say what matters is Fm only, every other force can't be transmitted by the steering rack of the car anyway. Well so far in theory. Practically i found out (lap times and fun) that a well composed mix of all forces helps in many ways. - As GrimeyDog, bmanic (special thanks to him), poirqc, Haiden - to name a few of the well acknowledged experts here - have always claimed. Though here my updated thought about SoP-Diff: While Fm stays to be my main source of "reading" the car's behavior and feeling the tires' critical slip angle when turning in and getting out of a corner, I dial Sop Diff in to a certain degree to get some weight to the wheel while cornering near of the apex as it happens in reality too. I found out to get that weight i can either increase Fy of course - or I can actually use SoP-Diff. More Fy easily leads to that unwanted clanking/cogging effect and/or oscillating around center on straights when not holding the wheel firm, the same way it happens when you increase Fm. Instead more SoP-Diff does pretty the same as Fy (plus some more weight shift info) but doesn't lead this quickly to the clanking and swinging wheel effects.


Linearity and Soft-Clipper.

If my testings are correct (keeping test-wise RAG and soft clipper at zero), individual Fx, Fy, Fz input scalings, TireForce, spindle master scale, steering gain, (and FFM master scale ("Game Master FFB")) behave pretty linear. Therefore: E.g.: (100 * Fy) * (100 * TF) * (25 * Spindle) * (200 * steering gain) = 1 * 1 * 0,25 * 2 = 0,5 (* Gamer Master FFB). In so far, since RAG, scoop and soft clipper come after Fxyz, TF and spindle master scale, but before steering gain, and because there is no visual signal control in between, you must switch off RAG and / or soft-clippers to know what you eventually feed to RAG and/or possibly soft-clipper, before turning them on.

With all due respect - the way the two soft clippers ("half input and full output") work together is beyond logic. When i tested it, it didn't behave as described in the ("official"?) pCarsFFBGuide20150416.pdf document. The description ist vague enough anyway, i believe nobody was capable yet to really figure out how soft clipper full force "anticipates" what's fed to soft clipper (half input):

FFB guide: "SoftClipUnity (remark: now "Full Force") sets the expected maximum force that will hit the soft clipper, and rescales such that that force outputs at 1.0 (full force of wheel). This means saturation may be reintroduced if this is set too low, but it is useful to fine tune output, especially when the soft clipper is used more for nonlinear response than for anti-saturation. Setting this to 0.0 turns the unity rescaling off." According to the description it seems soft clipper Full Output sets a signal for the input of the soft clipper half input, then - afterwards - rescales it to 1.0, if necessary.

As much as one modul can't be at two sides in a signal chain at the same time, my tests didn't lead to signal behavior that i could explain logically. Soft Clipper Half Input indeed amplifies lower input values over-proportionally ("compressor") but doesn't funnel them into a 0.5 output corridor. Actually if you set SC Half Input to 0.1, output raises to about 0.9. There a more oddities. Among others, you you may find strange that setting SC Full Output to values >1 leads to reducing signal values. Instead of leveling it up to 1.00. Which is what an audio compressor/limiter would allow. Briefly, i think the use of soft clipper half input and full output is nothing than try and error, and due to its complexity you may not know what you get from it. Of course setting the soft clipper to e.g. 0.3 "tightens" the wheel, making softer forces stronger, but do i want that at the expense of possibly all forces narrowed down to a "corridor" +/- a little around 0,5 and some (which one?) higher, while i can't control the real range of compression.

I'll happily rest my case immediately if news come around about the mysterious ways the clippers work
smile.png


Besides, I'll give the clippers a try soon.

About Wheel Linearity.

Engineers prefer modules which behave linear, because when you put many in a row, you don't want to compensate for non-linear behavior, and it's nice to tweak something that you know was linear before. But good linearity comes with a steep price tag, and isn't so important in our FFB case. If the wheel hardware has a good straight linearity that's fine and you safe the time to make it linear with scoop knee and scoop reduction, but most often the ideal curve for our purpose looks a bit different anyway:

The same as with "loudness" in audio technology: As long as you don't want to hear a song at live concert volume level (equivalent you're wheel simulating wrist-breaking forces of a real race car), but want to enjoy it at a reasonable level, you want to lift the lower forces and tune down the loud peaks of the song or FFB. Thats called 'compression' which leads to higher 'loudness' while keeping it at relatively lower absolute signal-levels. Obviously by doing so your originally best case straight linear I/O line is changed into a curve that lifts the approx. 0.0 - 0.2 over proportionally, than stays as much linear as possible in the middle, and compresses the higher forces into a smaller bandwidth, since your senses can't differentiate very strong tactile forces (same with light and sound) as good as smaller forces, Therefore there is no need to offer much linearity in the range of stronger forces.


My method to explore pCars FFB

The only way I was capable to get more and more an idea how pCars FFB system works was by turning off all components and testing just only one F-kind (e.g. only Fz) at a time to see what happens along along the signal chain. Then, step by step dialing in more and more parameters after i got an idea how they interact and interfere with each other - as far as possible. Boring and time consuming! But i wasn't able to come to proper conclusions about what causes which effects when i changed more than one parameter at once. Most of my tests i did with the RUF 8 GT3 on Watkins Glen, since it has a fast loading pit stop exit and a quite bumpy track.


About Steering Sensitivity.

I was surprised to see that setting different values for Steering Sensitivity can have a stronger effect to the FFB handling than i expected. After fumbling around with the many parameters in the game FFB configuration section (and car's FFB configuration - as part of the tuning set ups) i almost forgot about the steering sensitivity. I assumed 100 (%) sensitivity would be best, but i found out it mustn't be the perfect choice. It's worth testing and altering that parameter, especially when you have difficulties to catch the car when drifting. Again: You, the wheel and the computation of the spring-mass-damper-system is an oscillating system in whole, in which the degree of linearity or non-linearity of the the steering wheel sensitivity results in damping or amplifying effects that hinder or help you to be in a good tune regarding actio and reactio, and visa versa.


My PS4 / T300 FFB settings (for the moment)

Note: You will see that my settings lead to an output at the steering gain out of only approx. 0.5. (instead of using the maximal dynamic range of 1.0)
In a perfect world i could or should increase the Fxyzm input forces proportionally to each other, and/or increase TireForce to level up the signal to 1.0.

(The reason i didn't do that yet is, because with the settings as shown below i feed the RAG with a certain signal strength. Since the RAG module doesn't operate linear, i would have to re-adust the entire chain of signals, if i changed the input to the RAG module.

This gives a hint why the RAG and Soft Clipper modules - working like different kind of signal curve shaping signal processors - are hard to handle, because they produce different non linear effects as an outcome, depending on what you feed into them.

You may think i could simply crank up the signal with the help of the steering gain module at the end, before handing over the signal to the games's master FFB "Volume-knob". Yes, but for some specific reasons of how the RAG works it would be better to feed the RAG module with a close to 1.0 signal range. And getting a close to 1.00 range out of it.

(There is also a question mark why SMD introduced the steering gain module during one of the patches. I can't see what the steering gain can do what the in-game master FFB couldn't do. It's possibly an PC issue.)

However, if Soft Clippers are switched off, my test didn't show a non-linearity along the signal path "RAG/RAC output - steering gain module - game FFB master - wheel". Therefore I allowed myself to be a bit nonchalant by not using the complete dynamic range despite of what I recommended above.


---------------------------------------------------
Controls Configuration (I think most guys call it the "Globals?)

Steering Deadzone: 0
Steering Sensitivity: 100 (up to your taste)
Throttle Deadzone: 0
Throttle Sensitivity: 80 (up to your taste)
Break Deadzone: 0
Break Sensitivity: 80 (up to your taste)
Clutch Deadzone: (up to your taste) (I don't use clutch)
Clutch Sensitivity: (up to your taste)

Speed Sensitivity: 10 (I didn't test it)
Control Filter Sensitivity: 0 (I didn't test it)
Damper Saturation: 0 ((I didn't test it. I don't know at what point of the signal chain that damping comes into effect.)

Force feedback (in game master FFB "volume-knob): 75 (for PS4. I don't know about PC and Xbox.)
RPM/gear display: doesn't matter

Controller Input Mode: 3 (I didn't test otherwise)
Advanced: Off. (I didn't test otherwise)

----------------------------------------------------------
Force Feedback Calibration ((I think most guys call it also belonging it to the "Globals?)

Tire Force (TF): 100

Movement per Wheel (MPW): 0,00 (my T300 has no drag, other wheels need adjustments in this section, see skoaders and Dullivants tools / programs for PC).
Movement per Wheel Squared (MPWS) : 0,00
Wheel Positioning Smoothing (WPS): 0.00

Deadzone Removal Range (DRR): 0.01 (I feel also fine with zero, i guess my wheel is in a good shape). Be aware: dialing in higher values can make your wheel tense and can lead to unwanted oscilating.
Deadzone Removal Falloff (DRF): 0.02

Linkage Scale: 0.00 (I tried it out and find it useful for some time. Kind of didn't need it anymore...)
Linkage Stiffness: 0.00
Linkage Damping: 0.00

Relative Adjust Gain (RAG): 1.75
Relative Adjust Bleed (RAB): 0,03 (I'm sure this will surprise a lot of people. Again FFB is very personal ;-)!
Relative Adjust Clamp (RAC): 2.00 (I just want to make sure i don't get any unwanted compression or limiting. Besides: @ bmanic: Yes, i once experienced the RAG/RAC bug ("snake" (acc. to ptw) with rattling spikes that seemed to represent sensor points of the wheel.) But i couldn't find proof that this big is related to the value of RAC.

Scoop Knee (SK): 0,75
Scoop Knee Reduction (SKR): 0,25. (Me and most others don't want a convex formed I/O (input/output) curve, that differentiates less the lower forces but makes the high forces unnecessarily more differential.

Soft Clipping (Half Input) (SCHI): 0.00
Soft Clipping (Full Output) (SCFO): 0.00

Menu Spring Strength: 0.00 (some may like to feel some resistance of FFB while the car stands still or moves slowly. I don't mind and want to avoid unknown effects, since there are indices, that MSS is provided through a separate FX channel to the wheel, which is different to SMD's general FFB approach of having only purely computed (not pre-baked) FFB effects. NB: Due to the mathematics behind it's all SMD also seems to have the problem that the physic model doesn't work properly when values get close to Zero.
Low Speed Spring Coefficient: 0.00
Steering Gain: 1.00 (equivalent to 100). (That's the last "volume knob" before signal reaches to master FFB (see above.)

----------------------------------------------------------------
Vehicle Force Feedback Section (as part of the cars Tuning Set Up). Must be dialed in for each car seperately.

Here values for the RUF 8 GT3 (tested on Watkins Glen)

SPINDLE

Master Scale: 16
Fx Scale: 24
Fy Scale: 40
Fz Scale: 74
Mz Scale: 84


Fx Smoothing: 10 (smoothing is the the same as "damping").
Fy Smooting: 30
Fz Smoothing: 10 (Fz is mostly high frequency rumbling - without resulting in a "grainy feeling", that's why you don't want to smooth that much.)
Mz Smooting: 60 (I name it Fm. I don't remember seeing such high value in other people's settings, but I gave it many trials to make sure that it really has a positive effect instead of a placebo effect.)

(Spindle-) Arm Angle: 1500.00 (which stands for 15 degress, google Ackermann Angle...) The devs have been very cryptic about the "Arm Angle"... Some say it has a big effect on the FFB. As a matter of fact I'm quite sure the Arm Angle shouldn't be part of the FFB, instead is a mechanical set-up that changes the car's driving behavior, therefore a parameter like all the other tune-able parts - but not part of the FFB signal chain. However, only the devs will know...


BODY & SOP (Seat of Pants)

Body Scale: 0.00 (doesn't work properly anyway in my eyes.)
Body Stiffness: 0.00 or 100 (doesn't matter when Body Scale is put to Zero)
Body Damping 0.00 or 100, same as above.

SoP Scale: 14.0
SoP Lateral Scale: 0.00
SoP Differential Scale: 40.0
SoP Damping: 50


actual author and thread location

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sh...B-tweek-used&p=1204620&viewfull=1#post1204620
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Last edited by tennenbaum; Today at 03:16.
 
@SGETI Thanks for the info - to be honest i started reading it, then seen how long it was and scrolled down lol. I'll save at for when am at mu computer not on the phone
 
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Yeah, I'm with @irmopars :) Especially since I'm a controller guy, it's all irrelivant to me right now anyways. However, it is GREAT to know that we have some fantastic info here in this thread. Thank you @SGETI for that!

The thing that I don't understand about all this is pretty fundamental. Doesn't a Ferrari act the same for me as it does everybody else? :banghead: :odd:
 
View attachment 497703 If you don't think people take this game and FFB setting seriously, Give this article a read. But first I suggest getting an extra large cup of coffee or your favorite beverage, wear comfortable clothing, and have a pen n paper at the ready. Anyone who has a T300 he gives his settings at the end. Will be trying these later today. Right now I need to get up and walk around to loosen up.

Original thread and author, maybe easier reading format.


http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sh...B-tweek-used&p=1204620&viewfull=1#post1204620


Thanks for that picture!

It gave me a nudge to point out my findings and thoughts. Starting with some basics about how the primary forces Fx, Fy, Fz, and the secondary force Fm, plus "canned" forces SoP-lateral and SoP-differential translate into a torque that moves eventually the FFB-Wheel.

Most of what i put together is of course well known here, though for FFB starters it might be nice to get a bit info as a one-pager. And for some guys my FFB settings at the end of this post may be interesting.

AND I still wonder about Body/Gut simulation and how Fm (Mz) - being adjustable - fits the logic of the physic model? See side notes below.



Fx, Fy, Fz are straight force vectors, Fm is a torque force. (I allowed myself to add the Fm Force (pink), see picture below).

Fx, Fy, Fz is measured / given at the contact-patch of the tire.

These 3 forces, resulting from - and effecting - friction between track and tire at the contact patch, describe all possible actio and reactio forces happening between the car's tire(s) and the surface of the track.

The 3 forces transform into Fm.

The torque strength and direction of Fm (equivalent to Mz) depends on the size and position of the tire's contact patch towards the road surface, thus depending on the tire-built and its friction-character, the car's geometric constructional parameters like "camber", "caster", "tow" and "spindle arm ("Ackermann") angle", plus environmental conditions like tire pressure, temperature, slippery of the track, etc., plus - last not least - the steering angle (that you do or don't control ;-)

That Fm - as a result of those many adjustable parameters and conditions computated by the sim's physic engine - represents the Torque Force that makes your steering wheel turn and rumble. After it got treated and tweaked by the many FFB modules that shape that Fm force to your wishes: See side note below.

When Fm is obviously a derived force as a result of how Fx Fy Fz hit the tire and suspension, you may wonder why Fm can be set individually. Well, I wonder too! See my note below.

However, leaving that question aside, the picture also shows nicely how SoP-Differential (as scaling of the rear vertical load effect, which is actually the difference between right and left load on each wheel) and SoP-Lateral (Fy at the rear wheels) comes into play. Though remember, when mixing the SoP forces into the FFB signal, be aware you add forces to your FFB which in reality aren't be represented through the steering rack. (In a indirect way yes, but not directly). BTW: I don't think that the light-blue Fx forces in the picture are represented by the adjustable parameters?

While these basics seem to be quite simple, why is it admittedly so difficult to come up with a suitable baseline FFB setting or good settings in general at all? And why are the settings not really compatible as as soon as you change the hardware (console, pc, wheel) and the person behind the wheel ;-)? And why didn't SMD provide a set of ok-default settings, beside the not-so-ok default set as it is?

The answer lies probably in the fact, that 'cause and effect' appear to be a static affair when you look at the modules and the vectors. But the forces actually build up, fade away, overlap, and counter-act in fragments of milliseconds. Thus creating complex frequency patterns over time that feed the entire steering construction (real, or simulated) trough different stages of the signal chain. The Fyxz forces translate - through rubber, racks, cogs, rods and joints - in many ways into the torque delivered to the steering wheel.

In comparison to such real mechanical force transformations a SIM tries to simulate the same effects by computation of forces that come from a math/physic model. The SIM FFB represents a "system" where each component of the signal stage interacts with all its other components, therefore being a swinging, oscillating, system in whole: A Multiple DOF Spring Mass Damper System. (DOF = Directions of freedom. Here, with car vehicle dynamics with 6 directions: x,y,z, yaw, pitch and tilt). This much in theory. Practically pCars doesn't fully computate such a system, but even while simplifying a lot of things, the pros and cons of such a complex spring-damper-system come into effect in a way that can be quite confusing: see note at the end. I also attached a picture illustrating a row of masses / modules connected with dampers and springs.

That explains why tweaking the FFB is far from simple: You change amplification or damping (smoothing) of just one component (e.g. module "Tire Force", or Relative Adjust Gain") and it effects the entire chain of signals from the tire's contact patch to the steering wheel and the entire way back. That is one of the reason why "Damping" plays such a role in pCars FFB configuration and calibration. You ever wondered why you can even choose to set "LINKAGE" as "weight" and "strength" of your own arms holding the steering wheel? Even your body with your arm mass and strength is a part of the Spring-Mass-Damper-System that oscillates depending on the frequency patterns running though it back and forth. Your arms are as much a source of force input as the force on the other side of the chain coming from the friction between road surface and tire.

Side Notes:

Why is Fm an adjustable input force?

Theoretically it seems to me that the developers could have left apart Fm as fourth force to be adjustable, since IMO Fm results from above mentioned parameters. While it's pretty clear why you want to make Fx Fy Fz adjustable for the player, I don't know why the developers offered the possibility to set Fm as an input force as well, since it's not a primary force, but a kind of derived force. I guess the devs wanted to offer a more direct possibility to set the Fm force, instead of just keeping it completely depending on all the other parameters. But thinking it back and forth IMO by making Fm adjustable it seems to me you kind of fumble with the logic of the entire physic model.

Any further insights are very welcomed!


Gut/Body Sim?

So what about the "Gut/Body-Simulation" (the parameter section above the SoP section)? Does anybody know what's the matter with it? I tried it several times with the Ruf 8 GT3 at Watkins Glen. It doesn't seem to work properly. Yet, it seems to create completely wrong effects. (You can easily find that out by setting all other forces to zero, only checking out the gut forces...)


Low damping values?

I always wonder that most guys dial in quite low Fxyz damping values. Don't they get a rough, "grainy" FFB feeling? If i damp e.g. Fz less than 30 i always get a "grainy-ness" feeling (like "ripples" or sand between cogs and belt of my T300). The same with the other forces, depending on different cars. E.g.: The Lotus 49 Cosworth open wheeler has terribly strong Fx "grainy-ness" that needs quite high damping value.


Signal chain and clipping.

FyFxFzFm > TireForce > Master spindle scale >> RAG > soft clipper > scoop > steering gain >> X >> FFB Master >> Wheel. (True or not?)

(Remark: Due to mathematics and logic the order of FxFyFz and Tire Force multiplier doesn't matter, therefore the attached picture from the official guide pdf can look different. Also the 'steering gain'module wasn't part of the picture at that time.)

Please note where the "X" = FFB telemetry graph reads its input. It can't be explained often enough (for console gamers): Clipping can be detected with the HUD telemetry and must be avoided at any stage but also before the signal reaches the Master FFB (in configuration section of the game). Master FFB must be seen (GrimeyDog pointed that out many times) as a "Volume-Knob", that "hands over" the signal that comes from the last module (steering gain) to the console output and from there to the wheel hardware.

That output signal from last stage module "steering gain" should be "leveled" to full dynamic range from 0 - 1, equivalent 0 - 100%.
100% = when yellow telemetry FFB curve hits with its peaks the top of the frame when cornering right, and hits invisible bottom line at half of the hight of the yellow frame when cornering to the left). Then Master FFB serves as last multiplier stage that delivers signal to the wheel. (comparable to an analoge amount of voltage). It's quite the same as with audio signals: If you crank up a very low signal that doesn't use the full dynamic 0-100 range you just amplify a lot of almost nothing, therefore lifting up the "noise" as well. The other way round, if the the signal was too high before, therefore clipping, by trying to lower the already distorted signal with the master FFB you don't get rid of the clippings, you just make them less strong.


Clipping and how to dial in RAG, RAB, RAC in an unexpected way.


Be aware that clipping can happen at all stages. Once happening you can't eliminate it by the following stage(s). Be also aware that "saturation" doesn't have to be necessarily a clipping at 100%. Saturation can also mean that a signal processor stage/modul like RAC relative Adust Clamp levels (compresses) signals to a value of anything between 0 - 1. Try it out, you will find an almost flat corridor line of forces in the telemetry hud, if you set RAC e.g. to 0.4. Actually one of the reasons you should carefully watch out what your'e doing when manipulating the RAG, RAB and RAC.

My tip: Try out to set RAG to 1.5 or higher, RAB to 0.02 - 0.04 (instead of 0.98 what's mostly recommended), and RAC to 2.00 (to avoid any unwanted limiting) you may be stunned how lively and "free-ed" your wheel gets, while keeping the "sharpness" and "accentuation" that you wanted from the RAG in the first place, but without the "clanking" that often comes along with RAG and long RA-Bleeding. The reason for it lies in a differential equation first degree math, where the faster bleed times lead to faster delta time "packages" making the RAG curve softer (smaller saw teeth) without loosing the accentuation of the original force curve.

One of the other welcomed effects of RAG is that due to its math behind it creates stronger Kerb-Rumbles and similar Fz effects actually without the need of (much) Fz. Instead, Fy and Fm (and also SoP -Diff) start to create effects very similar to Fz effects. That is in so far interesting because Fz forces have a counter-facing (aka called negative or inverse) effect to the torque of the wheel. E.g. you turn left into a corner, Fz makes the wheel go counter-clockwise (towards the corner), instead of counter-pushing clockwise - which what you'd rather expect from FFB. I believe there is a good reasons for that "inverse" torgue effect, but higher Fz values (when the car does weight shifts) can also contradict your wish to feel the wheel's 'weight' during cornering because due to its inverse torque Fz can "eat up" the Fy (and SoP-Diff) effects. (Meaning you get lively road feeling with nice kerb rumbles, but your wheel lightens up to much at the same time while cornering.)

BTW: Be aware that RAB (Bleeding) turns the RAG module on, when you set RAB to any other value than 0.00.


SoP yes or no?

I fully understand when people say SoP doesn't belong into the mix, due to good reasons. In my older posts i was so puristic to even say what matters is Fm only, every other force can't be transmitted by the steering rack of the car anyway. Well so far in theory. Practically i found out (lap times and fun) that a well composed mix of all forces helps in many ways. - As GrimeyDog, bmanic (special thanks to him), poirqc, Haiden - to name a few of the well acknowledged experts here - have always claimed. Though here my updated thought about SoP-Diff: While Fm stays to be my main source of "reading" the car's behavior and feeling the tires' critical slip angle when turning in and getting out of a corner, I dial Sop Diff in to a certain degree to get some weight to the wheel while cornering near of the apex as it happens in reality too. I found out to get that weight i can either increase Fy of course - or I can actually use SoP-Diff. More Fy easily leads to that unwanted clanking/cogging effect and/or oscillating around center on straights when not holding the wheel firm, the same way it happens when you increase Fm. Instead more SoP-Diff does pretty the same as Fy (plus some more weight shift info) but doesn't lead this quickly to the clanking and swinging wheel effects.


Linearity and Soft-Clipper.

If my testings are correct (keeping test-wise RAG and soft clipper at zero), individual Fx, Fy, Fz input scalings, TireForce, spindle master scale, steering gain, (and FFM master scale ("Game Master FFB")) behave pretty linear. Therefore: E.g.: (100 * Fy) * (100 * TF) * (25 * Spindle) * (200 * steering gain) = 1 * 1 * 0,25 * 2 = 0,5 (* Gamer Master FFB). In so far, since RAG, scoop and soft clipper come after Fxyz, TF and spindle master scale, but before steering gain, and because there is no visual signal control in between, you must switch off RAG and / or soft-clippers to know what you eventually feed to RAG and/or possibly soft-clipper, before turning them on.

With all due respect - the way the two soft clippers ("half input and full output") work together is beyond logic. When i tested it, it didn't behave as described in the ("official"?) pCarsFFBGuide20150416.pdf document. The description ist vague enough anyway, i believe nobody was capable yet to really figure out how soft clipper full force "anticipates" what's fed to soft clipper (half input):

FFB guide: "SoftClipUnity (remark: now "Full Force") sets the expected maximum force that will hit the soft clipper, and rescales such that that force outputs at 1.0 (full force of wheel). This means saturation may be reintroduced if this is set too low, but it is useful to fine tune output, especially when the soft clipper is used more for nonlinear response than for anti-saturation. Setting this to 0.0 turns the unity rescaling off." According to the description it seems soft clipper Full Output sets a signal for the input of the soft clipper half input, then - afterwards - rescales it to 1.0, if necessary.

As much as one modul can't be at two sides in a signal chain at the same time, my tests didn't lead to signal behavior that i could explain logically. Soft Clipper Half Input indeed amplifies lower input values over-proportionally ("compressor") but doesn't funnel them into a 0.5 output corridor. Actually if you set SC Half Input to 0.1, output raises to about 0.9. There a more oddities. Among others, you you may find strange that setting SC Full Output to values >1 leads to reducing signal values. Instead of leveling it up to 1.00. Which is what an audio compressor/limiter would allow. Briefly, i think the use of soft clipper half input and full output is nothing than try and error, and due to its complexity you may not know what you get from it. Of course setting the soft clipper to e.g. 0.3 "tightens" the wheel, making softer forces stronger, but do i want that at the expense of possibly all forces narrowed down to a "corridor" +/- a little around 0,5 and some (which one?) higher, while i can't control the real range of compression.

I'll happily rest my case immediately if news come around about the mysterious ways the clippers work
smile.png


Besides, I'll give the clippers a try soon.

About Wheel Linearity.

Engineers prefer modules which behave linear, because when you put many in a row, you don't want to compensate for non-linear behavior, and it's nice to tweak something that you know was linear before. But good linearity comes with a steep price tag, and isn't so important in our FFB case. If the wheel hardware has a good straight linearity that's fine and you safe the time to make it linear with scoop knee and scoop reduction, but most often the ideal curve for our purpose looks a bit different anyway:

The same as with "loudness" in audio technology: As long as you don't want to hear a song at live concert volume level (equivalent you're wheel simulating wrist-breaking forces of a real race car), but want to enjoy it at a reasonable level, you want to lift the lower forces and tune down the loud peaks of the song or FFB. Thats called 'compression' which leads to higher 'loudness' while keeping it at relatively lower absolute signal-levels. Obviously by doing so your originally best case straight linear I/O line is changed into a curve that lifts the approx. 0.0 - 0.2 over proportionally, than stays as much linear as possible in the middle, and compresses the higher forces into a smaller bandwidth, since your senses can't differentiate very strong tactile forces (same with light and sound) as good as smaller forces, Therefore there is no need to offer much linearity in the range of stronger forces.


My method to explore pCars FFB

The only way I was capable to get more and more an idea how pCars FFB system works was by turning off all components and testing just only one F-kind (e.g. only Fz) at a time to see what happens along along the signal chain. Then, step by step dialing in more and more parameters after i got an idea how they interact and interfere with each other - as far as possible. Boring and time consuming! But i wasn't able to come to proper conclusions about what causes which effects when i changed more than one parameter at once. Most of my tests i did with the RUF 8 GT3 on Watkins Glen, since it has a fast loading pit stop exit and a quite bumpy track.


About Steering Sensitivity.

I was surprised to see that setting different values for Steering Sensitivity can have a stronger effect to the FFB handling than i expected. After fumbling around with the many parameters in the game FFB configuration section (and car's FFB configuration - as part of the tuning set ups) i almost forgot about the steering sensitivity. I assumed 100 (%) sensitivity would be best, but i found out it mustn't be the perfect choice. It's worth testing and altering that parameter, especially when you have difficulties to catch the car when drifting. Again: You, the wheel and the computation of the spring-mass-damper-system is an oscillating system in whole, in which the degree of linearity or non-linearity of the the steering wheel sensitivity results in damping or amplifying effects that hinder or help you to be in a good tune regarding actio and reactio, and visa versa.


My PS4 / T300 FFB settings (for the moment)

Note: You will see that my settings lead to an output at the steering gain out of only approx. 0.5. (instead of using the maximal dynamic range of 1.0)
In a perfect world i could or should increase the Fxyzm input forces proportionally to each other, and/or increase TireForce to level up the signal to 1.0.

(The reason i didn't do that yet is, because with the settings as shown below i feed the RAG with a certain signal strength. Since the RAG module doesn't operate linear, i would have to re-adust the entire chain of signals, if i changed the input to the RAG module.

This gives a hint why the RAG and Soft Clipper modules - working like different kind of signal curve shaping signal processors - are hard to handle, because they produce different non linear effects as an outcome, depending on what you feed into them.

You may think i could simply crank up the signal with the help of the steering gain module at the end, before handing over the signal to the games's master FFB "Volume-knob". Yes, but for some specific reasons of how the RAG works it would be better to feed the RAG module with a close to 1.0 signal range. And getting a close to 1.00 range out of it.

(There is also a question mark why SMD introduced the steering gain module during one of the patches. I can't see what the steering gain can do what the in-game master FFB couldn't do. It's possibly an PC issue.)

However, if Soft Clippers are switched off, my test didn't show a non-linearity along the signal path "RAG/RAC output - steering gain module - game FFB master - wheel". Therefore I allowed myself to be a bit nonchalant by not using the complete dynamic range despite of what I recommended above.


---------------------------------------------------
Controls Configuration (I think most guys call it the "Globals?)

Steering Deadzone: 0
Steering Sensitivity: 100 (up to your taste)
Throttle Deadzone: 0
Throttle Sensitivity: 80 (up to your taste)
Break Deadzone: 0
Break Sensitivity: 80 (up to your taste)
Clutch Deadzone: (up to your taste) (I don't use clutch)
Clutch Sensitivity: (up to your taste)

Speed Sensitivity: 10 (I didn't test it)
Control Filter Sensitivity: 0 (I didn't test it)
Damper Saturation: 0 ((I didn't test it. I don't know at what point of the signal chain that damping comes into effect.)

Force feedback (in game master FFB "volume-knob): 75 (for PS4. I don't know about PC and Xbox.)
RPM/gear display: doesn't matter

Controller Input Mode: 3 (I didn't test otherwise)
Advanced: Off. (I didn't test otherwise)

----------------------------------------------------------
Force Feedback Calibration ((I think most guys call it also belonging it to the "Globals?)

Tire Force (TF): 100

Movement per Wheel (MPW): 0,00 (my T300 has no drag, other wheels need adjustments in this section, see skoaders and Dullivants tools / programs for PC).
Movement per Wheel Squared (MPWS) : 0,00
Wheel Positioning Smoothing (WPS): 0.00

Deadzone Removal Range (DRR): 0.01 (I feel also fine with zero, i guess my wheel is in a good shape). Be aware: dialing in higher values can make your wheel tense and can lead to unwanted oscilating.
Deadzone Removal Falloff (DRF): 0.02

Linkage Scale: 0.00 (I tried it out and find it useful for some time. Kind of didn't need it anymore...)
Linkage Stiffness: 0.00
Linkage Damping: 0.00

Relative Adjust Gain (RAG): 1.75
Relative Adjust Bleed (RAB): 0,03 (I'm sure this will surprise a lot of people. Again FFB is very personal ;-)!
Relative Adjust Clamp (RAC): 2.00 (I just want to make sure i don't get any unwanted compression or limiting. Besides: @ bmanic: Yes, i once experienced the RAG/RAC bug ("snake" (acc. to ptw) with rattling spikes that seemed to represent sensor points of the wheel.) But i couldn't find proof that this big is related to the value of RAC.

Scoop Knee (SK): 0,75
Scoop Knee Reduction (SKR): 0,25. (Me and most others don't want a convex formed I/O (input/output) curve, that differentiates less the lower forces but makes the high forces unnecessarily more differential.

Soft Clipping (Half Input) (SCHI): 0.00
Soft Clipping (Full Output) (SCFO): 0.00

Menu Spring Strength: 0.00 (some may like to feel some resistance of FFB while the car stands still or moves slowly. I don't mind and want to avoid unknown effects, since there are indices, that MSS is provided through a separate FX channel to the wheel, which is different to SMD's general FFB approach of having only purely computed (not pre-baked) FFB effects. NB: Due to the mathematics behind it's all SMD also seems to have the problem that the physic model doesn't work properly when values get close to Zero.
Low Speed Spring Coefficient: 0.00
Steering Gain: 1.00 (equivalent to 100). (That's the last "volume knob" before signal reaches to master FFB (see above.)

----------------------------------------------------------------
Vehicle Force Feedback Section (as part of the cars Tuning Set Up). Must be dialed in for each car seperately.

Here values for the RUF 8 GT3 (tested on Watkins Glen)

SPINDLE

Master Scale: 16
Fx Scale: 24
Fy Scale: 40
Fz Scale: 74
Mz Scale: 84


Fx Smoothing: 10 (smoothing is the the same as "damping").
Fy Smooting: 30
Fz Smoothing: 10 (Fz is mostly high frequency rumbling - without resulting in a "grainy feeling", that's why you don't want to smooth that much.)
Mz Smooting: 60 (I name it Fm. I don't remember seeing such high value in other people's settings, but I gave it many trials to make sure that it really has a positive effect instead of a placebo effect.)

(Spindle-) Arm Angle: 1500.00 (which stands for 15 degress, google Ackermann Angle...) The devs have been very cryptic about the "Arm Angle"... Some say it has a big effect on the FFB. As a matter of fact I'm quite sure the Arm Angle shouldn't be part of the FFB, instead is a mechanical set-up that changes the car's driving behavior, therefore a parameter like all the other tune-able parts - but not part of the FFB signal chain. However, only the devs will know...


BODY & SOP (Seat of Pants)

Body Scale: 0.00 (doesn't work properly anyway in my eyes.)
Body Stiffness: 0.00 or 100 (doesn't matter when Body Scale is put to Zero)
Body Damping 0.00 or 100, same as above.

SoP Scale: 14.0
SoP Lateral Scale: 0.00
SoP Differential Scale: 40.0
SoP Damping: 50


actual author and thread location

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sh...B-tweek-used&p=1204620&viewfull=1#post1204620
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Last edited by tennenbaum; Today at 03:16.
:banghead:🤬
 
Thanks for reposting this @SGETI. and I also thank Thennenbaum for such great information.
While this is very informative I feel like I need a second Engineering degree to understand half of it.

I did see this post and Marvsche97 post before and going to try decipher what I can out of it.

the global settings are only half the equation,the individual car FFB settings are a large part of car handling,I'm still figuring it out myself but it makes a big difference
Thanks for input, what I'm looking for is the first half of the equation.
 
I've got a wheel and I still don't understand :banghead:

Haha, I hear ya. I meant the FFB issues though. We controller guys have it pretty simple... sensitivity, dead zone and a couple other things I've honestly never even bothered to play around with. I just succombed to dealing with the "issues" the best I can. There are some cars that I find darn near impossible to drive in a straight. Thank goodness the RUF didn't get voted in the other week... yikes. It's interesting because I find the Gineta GT4 to be fairly easy to drive. It's a little numb in the center of the steering, but other than that it's pretty predictable for me.
 
Just a couple things I should have mentioned earlier in the weekend.

The Ginetta is capable of having brake bias adjusted.

The Mustang is capable of having ABS and Traction Controlled toggled on/off.

These are uncontrollable so everybody is welcome to decide what they want to utilize. My apologies for not noting these things earlier.
 
I wonder if there are server issues right now... I can't open a lobby. Or see any online happenings...

Offline practice sessions: Mustang (TC off) and Ginetta (Brake Bias 58%)

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Time got a bit away from me this week so I'm resurrecting some of past week's "losers". A couple of them were a bit popular so let's see if they got a second shot at life. :)

Season%206%20Round%203_zpsmmfgmxsh.jpg~original


Click HERE to vote!
 
Hey guys! I just wanted to let you know that I don't think I. will be running with you guys anymore. :( I will probably pursue another league. You guys have a great league here and a bunch of smart minds!! :) and I wish you all the best. It's just I'm a sim person and I think part of it is having setups enabled. Running defaults is fun, but no team in racing goes onto a track without at least having their car the way they like it. I think it's a part of racing and also just enforcing pitstops too and how longer races means pitstops and more tire wear and guys having to make em. So much can happen and change due to pitstops and it's just a part of racing I am used to and like and meaning I don't think I fit well here not having it. Don't take me wrong I love you guys and everything and league is great and I'm not bashing on it. It's just I am not a good fit and what I was looking for and I think you guys should know why I lost interest over the past few weeks. All best my friends!
 

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