1.04 update - Physics changes - Your impressions?

mu22stang
@jr93alty

I'm implying that if a change occurred and if the vast majority of cars that represented this change were tuned, it is completely false to say this proves a fundamental change was made to the physics. For example, I've seen multiple accounts of farcical camber settings . If they improve this particular detail of the game, i.e. make negative camber values yield higher lateral grip than 0 camber, have they change the physics? Not necessarily. I consider that an improvement to the tuning interface.

And, if they did make a change to the physics to improve their realism, that does not imply they "barely know what they are doing." Multiple simulators make changes to the physics to improve realism. Trust me, NONE of them are perfect.
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It is all part of the physics of the game.
 
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Sander 001
I never minded any of the changes but this latest is ridiculous and has become a real problem: I am now having to genuinely take more care in corners over fear that my car will get on 2 wheels and try to roll over. Before it only occurred rarely on very specific kerbs but now it can happen anywhere if I'm cornering too hard.

Driver to his race engineer: "Hey Jean, there's too much grip, causing the car to flip"
....said no one ever. Except in GT6 with the bizarro land physics.

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Which is even worse in Assetto Corsa (I steer well clear of some of the curves at mugello in the M3, lost too many races due to two wheeling ) and iRacing suffers from this also with their RUFs in particular. Most driving models that push towards the realistic seem to be effected with similar floaty gravity bugs.
 
mu22stang
@jr93alty

I'm implying that if a change occurred and if the vast majority of cars that represented this change were tuned, it is completely false to say this proves a fundamental change was made to the physics. For example, I've seen multiple accounts of farcical camber settings . If they improve this particular detail of the game, i.e. make negative camber values yield higher lateral grip than 0 camber, have they change the physics? Not necessarily. I consider that an improvement to the tuning interface.

And, if they did make a change to the physics to improve their realism, that does not imply they "barely know what they are doing." Multiple simulators make changes to the physics to improve realism. Trust me, NONE of them are perfect.
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I'm not sure what your point is. Negative camber worked in GT5. GT6 is all over the place. GT5 had many issues in other places but camber did actually help in corners in GT5 and you even had to adjust it as you changed tires.
 
Tenacious D
I've found that camber works. It definitely helps me with faster, more stable turns than camber 0.0. Some have suggested that front camber actually affects the rear tires still, but I don't think this is the case anymore.
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Actually, in certain circumstances reducing grip can make you faster... So long as it balances the whole set up and is a trade off for stability.

Still using the R8 LMS as the example, after @Ridox2JZGTE posted his tune I read it and he doesn't use the ride hight 'trick' but upon closer inspection he does use camber and some unique LSD settings... Though I've not tested it (looking forward to it though) its seems that he is achieving similar results, the goal being, removing front end 'bias' to balance the rear end... @Ridox2JZGTE please correct me if I'm totally off here but it's the only logic I've come up with from only reading it so far...

A simple test would be zeroing out the rear camber and see if that helps?

But core grip is just a part of the equation, some even mix soft and hard tires and had fabulous results... So I've read anyway.

My only exp with camber is that I seem to have a slightly larger margin of error with it when I over cook a corner... But without it I'm on a more fine line... And that helps turn exit... So do I trade entry for exit? Now that's a very realistic scenario...

The irony in all this is I actually wish the MX 5's handled like the R8 in game as that complements my real world driving style... Add hundreds more HP and DF and its a different ball game.

Momentum cars benefit from instabilities, speed cars are dangerous without stability.
 
BWX
It is all part of the physics of the game. You have absolutely no clue if they changed a tuning parameter or a physics parameter. The fact of the matter is if they changed either, it changes the physics.
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You are assuming the interface values in the tuning section directly represent the values in the physics engine. Prove it.
 
Lawndart
Actually, in certain circumstances reducing grip can make you faster... So long as it balances the whole set up and is a trade off for stability.

Still using the R8 LMS as the example, after @Ridox2JZGTE posted his tune I read it and he doesn't use the ride hight 'trick' but upon closer inspection he does use camber and some unique LSD settings... Though I've not tested it (looking forward to it though) its seems that he is achieving similar results, the goal being, removing front end 'bias' to balance the rear end... @Ridox2JZGTE please correct me if I'm totally off here but it's the only logic I've come up with from only reading it so far...

A simple test would be zeroing out the rear camber and see if that helps?

But core grip is just a part of the equation, some even mix soft and hard tires and had fabulous results... So I've read anyway.

My only exp with camber is that I seem to have a slightly larger margin of error with it when I over cook a corner... But without it I'm on a more fine line... And that helps turn exit... So do I trade entry for exit? Now that's a very realistic scenario...

The irony in all this is I actually wish the MX 5's handled like the R8 in game as that complements my real world driving style... Add hundreds more HP and DF and its a different ball game.

Momentum cars benefit from instabilities, speed cars are dangerous without stability.
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Yes, I used zero camber at the rear to get max possible grip and increase front to balance the grip, on the tune I used 0.2, if it's too responsive or twitchy, increase it to 1.2 max ( I won't recommend to go over this - as it reduce grip too much ) The LSD is used to maintain balance when braking and accelerating, the damper and ARB also have great influence on how the car handle mid corner or coasting :D
 
In reference to the above picture of the Integ on it's two wheels;

I just experienced this for the first time recently. Don't recall the car, I think I was in an s2000 but in that exact corner on trail mountain. Really weird and unrealistic sensation. Ive been driving tuned cars and used to regularly track my cbr1000rr and was an A group rider. I know that is different but motorcyclist have a pretty keen understanding of grip and suspension tuning characteristics. I don't know if this makes me qualified to speak on this but i know what compression, rebound and preload (spring rates) do to a vehicle in real life and nothing about what happened felt "real" or possible. I can see hitting a curb and that completely unsettling your car, even getting air and alterning your intended exit...etc etc but your tires would have to have a ridiculous amount of grip to pop up on it's side like that without sliding back out onto all 4 tires. We all seen touring cars and even australian super cars jump off the side of curbs with two weeks, but they don't end up doing this side show act. I never have in real life. Like I said, I dont know if im qualified to talk about this but I'd like to think I am.
 
Lawndart
Actually, in certain circumstances reducing grip can make you faster... So long as it balances the whole set up and is a trade off for stability.
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I believe 0.0/0.0 is the most grip and so I start there and tune around it. If you have oversteering car for example there are a number of tuning tools you can use to help with that without changing camber. The idea of course is to get the right balance for your driving style.

But lets say I believe camber works so I put a standard 1.5/1.0 on the car. If 0.0 is in fact the most grip then what you've done is put a little less grip on the rear, but even less on the front so now the car may be more "balanced" and feel better but it has less overall grip. Might only be a half second on the track, maybe not enough to notice without mad testing, but it's close enough to your usual lap times you think everything is cool. Plus it feels better so you might try harder.

You go to GTP and some putz (maybe me) says, "Oh 0.0/0.0 is better" so you change to that and what happens? Lo and behold you now have slightly more grip but now the car begins to understeer because you added more grip to the front than the rear so what do you conclude?. I had camber and it was great then I took it off and it understeered, which means I have less grip at the front and 0.0 isn't the best, 1.5/1.0 is.

Which is why anectodal evidence is almost meaningless. I can't tell you how many times I see people posting completely incorrect anecdotal evidence after updates. After the last one, someone who shall remain nameless posted, "The PP system has completely changed, all the cars are different", which of course turned out not to be true. You need some testing with closely controlled parameters done in a way that's repeatable by others.
 
Thatswackson
In reference to the above picture of the Integ on it's two wheels;

I just experienced this for the first time recently. Don't recall the car, I think I was in an s2000 but in that exact corner on trail mountain. Really weird and unrealistic sensation. Ive been driving tuned cars and used to regularly track my cbr1000rr and was an A group rider. I know that is different but motorcyclist have a pretty keen understanding of grip and suspension tuning characteristics. I don't know if this makes me qualified to speak on this but i know what compression, rebound and preload (spring rates) do to a vehicle in real life and nothing about what happened felt "real" or possible. I can see hitting a curb and that completely unsettling your car, even getting air and alterning your intended exit...etc etc but your tires would have to have a ridiculous amount of grip to pop up on it's side like that without sliding back out onto all 4 tires. We all seen touring cars and even australian super cars jump off the side of curbs with two weeks, but they don't end up doing this side show act. I never have in real life. Like I said, I dont know if im qualified to talk about this but I'd like to think I am.
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I started out in bikes long before racing cars... I mention in a post some time ago about how my fellow drivers had a unique disposition to former bike racers and that is because bikers do have an initiate advantage when going to 4 wheels. Without writing a massive post, I'll simply state that bike racing is more a science than car racing witch is more of an art. Neither independently advantageous without the other... As the two together, and how they are applied, is what defines the level of a racer.

So in my book it more than qualifies, it's just harder to ground a point without the 4 wheel context to support it...

Regardless of that, flipping cars shouldn't happen the way you and others have described. I've yet to experience it myself in GT but when dealing with physics math can go 'sideways' in unique circumstances...
 
Johnnypenso
I believe 0.0/0.0 is the most grip and so I start there and tune around it. If you have oversteering car for example there are a number of tuning tools you can use to help with that without changing camber. The idea of course is to get the right balance for your driving style.

But lets say I believe camber works so I put a standard 1.5/1.0 on the car. If 0.0 is in fact the most grip then what you've done is put a little less grip on the rear, but even less on the front so now the car may be more "balanced" and feel better but it has less overall grip. Might only be a half second on the track, maybe not enough to notice without mad testing, but it's close enough to your usual lap times you think everything is cool. Plus it feels better so you might try harder.

You go to GTP and some putz (maybe me) says, "Oh 0.0/0.0 is better" so you change to that and what happens? Lo and behold you now have slightly more grip but now the car begins to understeer because you added more grip to the front than the rear so what do you conclude?. I had camber and it was great then I took it off and it understeered, which means I have less grip at the front and 0.0 isn't the best, 1.5/1.0 is.

Which is why anectodal evidence is almost meaningless. I can't tell you how many times I see people posting completely incorrect anecdotal evidence after updates. After the last one, someone who shall remain nameless posted, "The PP system has completely changed, all the cars are different", which of course turned out not to be true. You need some testing with closely controlled parameters done in a way that's repeatable by others.
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Well said, and why I keep posting in this thread, to have some degree of consistency and more progressive discussion that is more likely to lead to facts vs. debate. But debate is part of the process.

Even using math, there are many ways to skin a cat. We just defined two very reliable ways, with supporting findings, to tame the R8 LMS in this thread... Tuners apparently already knew this but good luck reading through all the garage advertisements on the tuning forum to discover like findings.

Is any of this universally applicable? We aren't quite their yet as a whole but the findings have been quite revealing. And they may change in next weeks ambiguous update/s.
 
Morphisor
So it's the 'going up on 2 wheels is unrealistic' discussion again.

Well, it's not.

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The video being 1 minute long and used as a counterpoint I thought it'd be a compilation video of 2 wheeling from all kinds of tracks and situations. Instead, it's just one freak thing on an off road track . Get back to me when you find videos showing cars 2 wheeling from the middle of smooth tracks.
 
Morphisor
So it's the 'going up on 2 wheels is unrealistic' discussion again.

Well, it's not.

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Oh really, so this is realistic also?


Just because it can happen in reality does not mean it is realistic when it happens in a game. In GT6 it is not as bad as some PC sims, but sometimes it does feel a little too strong, or at least it did. Can't say I've noticed it much lately.
 
Lawndart
I'll simply state that bike racing is more a science than car racing witch is more of an art. Neither independently advantageous without the other... As the two together, and how they are applied, is what defines the level of a racer.
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Interesting perspective. I'll take it. thank you kind sir.

I agree though, bikes absolutely taught me quite a bit of understanding racing, suspension tuning, weight transfer, racing lines, braking forces and balance. Delicate act when your moving fully tilt on a 1000cc machine with no remorse for what may happen if you get this wrong.

I just imagine that like in most cases, if you have that much outside force on two tires after clipping a curb, the weight of the vehicle coming back down and applying all of that force to once side of the car would be enough to over whelm the available amount of traction a tire can provide, thus, leaning more to the tires sliding in the same direction as the lateral force being applied to them. This is what would keep the car from popping up on two wheels in my opinion.

With that said, I do feel like the game is getting a bit better, this is strictly subjective of course and may be because i've been playing a bit more and adjusting to the handling. Getting my mind away from GT5 and into how GT6 works helped. Not perfect but I think it will improve with future updates.
 
Thatswackson
Interesting perspective. I'll take it. thank you kind sir.

I agree though, bikes absolutely taught me quite a bit of understanding racing, suspension tuning, weight transfer, racing lines, braking forces and balance. Delicate act when your moving fully tilt on a 1000cc machine with no remorse for what may happen if you get this wrong.

I just imagine that like in most cases, if you have that much outside force on two tires after clipping a curb, the weight of the vehicle coming back down and applying all of that force to once side of the car would be enough to over whelm the available amount of traction a tire can provide, thus, leaning more to the tires sliding in the same direction as the lateral force being applied to them. This is what would keep the car from popping up on two wheels in my opinion.

With that said, I do feel like the game is getting a bit better, this is strictly subjective of course and may be because i've been playing a bit more and adjusting to the handling. Getting my mind away from GT5 and into how GT6 works helped. Not perfect but I think it will improve with future updates.
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I'm cautiously optimistic and am slowly accepting that GT is a precursor to PD most important release in its series, GT 7... In my world perception trumps reality in the world of games so feeling and interpretation of feel is paramount.

There is no way to prove real physics vs computational with factual analysis (of a game) so if there are a couple instances every now and again that make me go "whoa, that felt pretty real" like 'skittering' to the outside of a bumpy turn and feeling the car restablize while still pushing the limit... I'm content.

Just like road bike racers having a bit more experience to pull from, MX racers have the same advantage over super bike racers. Point being, the more race dicaplines (dirt oval, ice, rally, etc) the bigger your 'tool box'.

Even mountain biking, BMX, skiing, etc. all are relevant to developing race skill. But ironically auto racing has little value to those activities... Needless to say, racing is a bigger investment than just money... And could be argued to be the pinical of many other activities.

I simply look at racing as the closest thing to riding dragons man will ever get... Nerded out there for a sec...
 
hahahahahaha. I like it. I would so ride a dragon. hahahaha.

Definitely agree with perception in a game being the ultimate deciding factor. I like it for now. GT7 is hopefully going to blow us all away but until then ill be content scrutinizing ever aspect of the game (JK, somewhat) and playing it as often as I can.

As far as racing, I would like to get back into it on a bike at a club level one of these days. Just have to convince the wife that I won't crash as often cuz im supposedly older and wiser now (even though the truth is im too compentitive for watching tailights).
 
And to get that thread off topic as a whole ... I think motor racing is the closest thing to the tournaments which knights held in the Middle ages - you have your horse/car, your shining armor and your determination to beat the others. Haha.

On-topic - I made the Mercedes-benz Vision GT VGT WTF time trial just yesterday evening ... and I must say ... I'm really impressed with how the car behaved.
I don't know if it's just the car but now it's more controllable at high speed and yet you can fly off course if you try to gain more speed then the corner permits.
On relatively low speed, after burning the tires by stomping on the brakes to kill the bigger amount of speed, you will most likely lock your tires especially if you don't use any aids (none) and even if you use a DS3, even without the vibration function. For a first time I can CLEARLY realize how the tires work and how much I can manipulate them before they scream ... literaly ... stop!
I'm still waiting for a free moment to test this update with my G27 but in a way I'm positive about the physics even if I red all the negative comments.
After the TT I took a fiat 500 for a spin on autumn ring and ... this car drove differently to my try a few days form now - when I was over the curbs the car felt more jumpy, more unstable. Even if it's was like ... 150HP tuned? Was it? ... so I wasn't driving very fast.
Anyway ... I don't know realism ... but I like the game more. Not because I have more control, but because some things in car's handling make more sense now.
 
The merc VGT is a remarkably well set up car! It supports the idea that some cars have very custom configurations beyond the systemic physics.

The thing looks as big as a bus, but handles and controls like a sub 500pp car...
 
I think tuning the suspension is now harder than it was before. Simply i don't feel much change after modifying parameters of my setups. If car has certain handling problem now it is much harder to find the cause. Correcting it with damping ratios, setting spring rates, now it is like roulette.

I tried to set up suspension for Mercedes Benz SL 55 AMG, i failed, couldn't rid off of corner entry understeer. I have no idea why it understeers so much. Lowering front spring rates didn't helped, changes were barely noticeable. I tried different damper compression and rebound ratios, same here, no changes or minimal changes in handling. This cars is simply untuneable.

Later i tried Aston Martin V8 Vantage, this cars suspension is more tuning-friendly, but still i feel like I'm doing it blindly, without knowing what is causing unwanted understeer or oversteer.

Any advices on how to improve my tuning skills and on how to adapt to new physics model??
 
andryush
I think tuning the suspension is now harder than it was before. Simply i don't feel much change after modifying parameters of my setups. If car has certain handling problem now it is much harder to find the cause. Correcting it with damping ratios, setting spring rates, now it is like roulette.

I tried to set up suspension for Mercedes Benz SL 55 AMG, i failed, couldn't rid off of corner entry understeer. I have no idea why it understeers so much. Lowering front spring rates didn't helped, changes were barely noticeable. I tried different damper compression and rebound ratios, same here, no changes or minimal changes in handling. This cars is simply untuneable.

Later i tried Aston Martin V8 Vantage, this cars suspension is more tuning-friendly, but still i feel like I'm doing it blindly, without knowing what is causing unwanted understeer or oversteer.

Any advices on how to improve my tuning skills and on how to adapt to new physics model??
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Now I have not driven this car myself. But as far as I am aware, it is a fairly heavy car. The understeer in corner entry could very well be a result of weight transfer to the front end. If this is the case, you could try lowering the ride height and stiffening the springs, this should reduce it.
 
andryush
I think tuning the suspension is now harder than it was before. Simply i don't feel much change after modifying parameters of my setups. If car has certain handling problem now it is much harder to find the cause. Correcting it with damping ratios, setting spring rates, now it is like roulette.

I tried to set up suspension for Mercedes Benz SL 55 AMG, i failed, couldn't rid off of corner entry understeer. I have no idea why it understeers so much. Lowering front spring rates didn't helped, changes were barely noticeable. I tried different damper compression and rebound ratios, same here, no changes or minimal changes in handling. This cars is simply untuneable.

Later i tried Aston Martin V8 Vantage, this cars suspension is more tuning-friendly, but still i feel like I'm doing it blindly, without knowing what is causing unwanted understeer or oversteer.

Any advices on how to improve my tuning skills and on how to adapt to new physics model??
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Did you attempt to lower the deceleration on the Fully Mechanical LSD?
 
Thatswackson
In reference to the above picture of the Integ on it's two wheels;

I just experienced this for the first time recently. Don't recall the car, I think I was in an s2000 but in that exact corner on trail mountain. Really weird and unrealistic sensation. Ive been driving tuned cars and used to regularly track my cbr1000rr and was an A group rider. I know that is different but motorcyclist have a pretty keen understanding of grip and suspension tuning characteristics. I don't know if this makes me qualified to speak on this but i know what compression, rebound and preload (spring rates) do to a vehicle in real life and nothing about what happened felt "real" or possible. I can see hitting a curb and that completely unsettling your car, even getting air and alterning your intended exit...etc etc but your tires would have to have a ridiculous amount of grip to pop up on it's side like that without sliding back out onto all 4 tires. We all seen touring cars and even australian super cars jump off the side of curbs with two weeks, but they don't end up doing this side show act. I never have in real life. Like I said, I dont know if im qualified to talk about this but I'd like to think I am.
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When a car is turning, the tyres are causing a sideways force, limited by the grip of the tyres. Due to the change of direction, the mass of the body of the car will act with an equal force in the opposite direction. Because the force from the tyres act at ground level, while the force of the body mass acts at center of gravity, the difference in height will result in a rotating force. In a race car, the center of gravity is lower, so the opposing forces are acting at a much closer level, causing a smaller rotation force.

When the car hits a steep curb while cornering, a force is added to lift one side of the car upwards. Additionally, the tilt causes the center of gravity to rise, making the difference between the tyre force and the body mass force greater. This increases the rotating force. In the case of the road car it might be enough to make it flip (which happens when the center of gravity has passed over the vertical axis of the tyres). In case of the race car, it shouldn't be enough to make it flip, because the forces are still acting relatively close to each other, and the low center of gravity also means that it will have to tilt more than the road car before the center of gravity has passed over the vertical axis of the tyres.

To flip a race car, you need sideways forces much higher than the tyres can produce. Typically it only happens when the car goes sideways off the track and the side digs in to the ground, or when it hits a solid barrier.

tilt.jpg


Bonus video:

 
Morphisor
Now I have not driven this car myself. But as far as I am aware, it is a fairly heavy car. The understeer in corner entry could very well be a result of weight transfer to the front end. If this is the case, you could try lowering the ride height and stiffening the springs, this should reduce it.
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Thanks, i will try it.

Boone
Did you attempt to lower the deceleration on the Fully Mechanical LSD?
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My standard LSD setting is 10/15/25
How does LSD decel setting is suposed to reduce corner entry understeer??
 
andryush
Thanks, i will try it.


My standard LSD setting is 10/15/25
How does LSD decel setting is suposed to reduce corner entry understeer??
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Lowering the Deceleration will, in theory, allow more turn-in, rotation, or oversteer on corner entry. For instance, on the Jaguar XKR-S '11 Super Lap I am currently running an LSD with these settings:
15/38/10
I hope that helps.
 

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