2008 Best Car Series: (Round 2) Nissan GT-R vs Holden Commodore

[nd 4 holden spd]

You do realize musclecars used all they had at the time to make power, right?

Yeah, and I gurantee they're using some advanced techonology in the modern pushrod, and Ford is already DOHC.

 

[Leonidae]

correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they get variable valve timing until this century..?

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they get variable valve timing until this century..?

I dunno, but when the LS7 is revving to 7000rpm it's quite clear they've done their homework in how to make the most of the pushrod, and put some modern tech. into it.

 

[Joey D]

correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they get variable valve timing until this century..?

Yes, GM was the first in 2005 with their LZE and LZ4 engines 3.5L V6 engines.

 

[YSSMAN]

Quite right, and they've also added VVT to their pushrod V8 lineup as well, most notably on the 6.2L L92 V8 in the trucks. No word on it hitting an LS-series V8 yet, they may wait until the next generation of small blocks comes around.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Yeah, and I gurantee they're using some advanced techonology in the modern pushrod, and Ford is already DOHC.

I dunno, but when the LS7 is revving to 7000rpm it's quite clear they've done their homework in how to make the most of the pushrod, and put some modern tech. into it.

Psst, you just destroyed your argument against AMG.

 

[Rusty*]

I agree with nd 4 holden spd, its true pushrod Donk's are not as 'under-achieving' compared to new modern engines as some people think, they just have to have someone that knows what there doing with them.👍 My uncle is a big fan of V8's and he had a small block Chevy that he wanted to test how hard it could rev...you know the saying "If you wanna rev buy a Chev" lol, he spent some time tuning it but when he was finished with it, he had it revving to 8000rpm!! That's not bad!
Also on the V8 vs V12 vs whatever the V8 is the most highly regarded performance engine of all time, don't believe me? Then answer this, why is it that V8's get run in the Top-Fuel Dragster's if other engine's are more capable than V8's? It's because V8's are the best choice. Look up Top-Fuel dragster's and you'll see what I mean, they pull sub-5 second quarter's all the time!!
Peace,
Rusty*

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I agree with nd 4 holden spd, its true pushrod Donk's are not as 'under-achieving' compared to new modern engines as some people think, they just have to have someone that knows what there doing with them.👍 My uncle is a big fan of V8's and he had a small block Chevy that he wanted to test how hard it could rev...you know the saying "If you wanna rev buy a Chev" lol, he spent some time tuning it but when he was finished with it, he had it revving to 8000rpm!! That's not bad!
Also on the V8 vs V12 vs whatever the V8 is the most highly regarded performance engine of all time, don't believe me? Then answer this, why is it that V8's get run in the Top-Fuel Dragster's if other engine's are more capable than V8's? It's because V8's are the best choice. Look up Top-Fuel dragster's and you'll see what I mean, they pull sub-5 second quarter's all the time!!
Peace,
Rusty*

Twin-screw superchargers and turbochargers are OUTLAWED from Top Fuel for a reason...

They still use V8s coz that's still what is, dare I say, cheapest. They've been using the same sort of design forever (always something resembling a Chrysler Hemi).

RE: 8k rpm Chev smallblock... Aaaaand so? Just coz it went that high doesn't mean it had any power up there. That and 8 grand ain't winding things all that high.

First On Race Day FTW.

 

[Rusty*]

Twin-screw superchargers and turbochargers are OUTLAWED from Top Fuel for a reason...

They still use V8s coz that's still what is, dare I say, cheapest. They've been using the same sort of design forever (always something resembling a Chrysler Hemi).

RE: 8k rpm Chev smallblock... Aaaaand so? Just coz it went that high doesn't mean it had any power up there. That and 8 grand ain't winding things all that high.

First On Race Day FTW.

Top-Fuel Dragster's are designedto achieve the sprint distance in the shortest time possible, and as for Cheap, I don't think the word 'cheap' should be used in the same sentence as the words 'Top-Fueler'.
And yes your right the Engine is a based off of a Chrysler Hemi (500ci).👍
As for the Smallblock Chevy I was talking about, yes your right the power curve would have dropped off at high RPM's but that is simply because it is a V8 designed primarily for torque. The Engine was simply an experiment and bit of fun to see how a relatively standard street Smallblock Chevy could Rev, and yes 8000 RPM for a near standard Push-Rod V8 Chevy is pretty impressive!!:tup:

EDIT: For some interested facts regarding the Top-Fueler's check this out: http://www.aussiev8.com.au/members-lounge/3462-some-interesting-top-fuel-dragster-facts.html

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Top-Fuel Dragster's are designedto achieve the sprint distance in the shortest time possible, and as for Cheap, I don't think the word 'cheap' should be used in the same sentence as the words 'Top-Fueler'.
And yes your right the Engine is a based off of a Chrysler Hemi (500ci).👍
As for the Smallblock Chevy I was talking about, yes your right the power curve would have dropped off at high RPM's but that is simply because it is a V8 designed primarily for torque. The Engine was simply an experiment and bit of fun to see how a relatively standard street Smallblock Chevy could Rev, and yes 8000 RPM for a near standard Push-Rod V8 Chevy is pretty impressive!!:tup:

"Cheap" is relative. To get to the point they're at with another engine design would require many, many hundreds of thousands of dollars. The Hemi's been being refined in Top Fuel since the 60s.

RE SBC: So what if it made it to 8k rpm? It had no power there and most likely didn't like it that much. My mom's old Honda Accord (1989, carbureted) would go to about 8500, doesn't mean it had power there or wanted anything to do with that sort of RPM.

And err, if there's no power there you can't say it winds to 8k. Because it'll never make it there in second or third gear in a car.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Psst, you just destroyed your argument against AMG.

They're using more technology than GM or Ford, but I was just saying that Detroit isn't technology-less.

 

[Leonidae]

As for the Smallblock Chevy I was talking about, yes your right the power curve would have dropped off at high RPM's but that is simply because it is a V8 designed primarily for torque. The Engine was simply an experiment and bit of fun to see how a relatively standard street Smallblock Chevy could Rev, and yes 8000 RPM for a near standard Push-Rod V8 Chevy is pretty impressive!!:tup:

No, that's not it. it's simply the pushrod system holding the engine back. At those rpms, the reciprocating forces cause so much friction that it started to eat the power away. For example, Nascar engines rev pretty high.

from Bill Sherwoods 4valve cylinder heads vs 2 valve cylinder heads
A Nascar V-8 has the very best quality valve gear that is available for two valve engines, to let them run at up to 9,000rpm. Apart from costing several limbs, their valve gear costs a lot of power - A friend of mine visited the Iskandarian factory in the US a few years ago, and saw a valve gear testing machine. It consisted of a dummy block, with one bank having a head with all the valve gear. The whole thing was configured so that only the one bank was driven and lubricated. (no pistons at all) An electric motor drove the thing, and apparently after the test started it took only 30 seconds or so before my friend couldn't put his hand on the rocker cover, due to the heat that the rockers & valve springs created. He also said that the noise was deafening, and that a 20hp electric motor was needed to drive the dummy engine at high revs. The rocker cover had a window in it so that the valve gear could be examined in operation, and after less than a minute the valve springs were glowing bright red! This means a seat pressure in excess of 200 lbs.

Impressive? Yes. Useful? only if you're racing and have bucketloads of money.

 

[Rusty*]

"Cheap" is relative. To get to the point they're at with another engine design would require many, many hundreds of thousands of dollars. The Hemi's been being refined in Top Fuel since the 60s.

RE SBC: So what if it made it to 8k rpm? It had no power there and most likely didn't like it that much. My mom's old Honda Accord (1989, carbureted) would go to about 8500, doesn't mean it had power there or wanted anything to do with that sort of RPM.

And err, if there's no power there you can't say it winds to 8k. Because it'll never make it there in second or third gear in a car.

Hmmm...I think your missing the point here, I put up the info regarding the SBC because certain members where doubting the capabilities of Push-rod V8 engines as being able to achieve and sustain high RPM not whether it would produce power at high RPM ok.👍
As for your Mom's Accord, did it have a Push-rod V8 in it? lol if so it woulda gone hard!!

No, that's not it. it's simply the pushrod system holding the engine back. At those rpms, the reciprocating forces cause so much friction that it started to eat the power away. For example, Nascar engines rev pretty high.

I'm not stating that OHV engines are the most efficient power producer because it's not, but as I said above I put up the info regarding the SBC because certain members where doubting the capabilities of Push-rod V8 engines as being able to achieve and sustain high RPM. Yes the engine frictions and addition forces caused by running the Engine and having it rev to 8k would have been substantial and therfore its life expectancy reduced. But tell me what relatively standard Engine can rev to 8000 RPM often and last without something going wrong.