2008 Best Car Series: (Round 2) SL65 Black vs FIAT 500

[nd 4 holden spd]

How does one have fun in a straight line? I mean I suppose acceleration, but really a majority of the people I talk to describe a fun to drive car being able to corner decently well and hold it's speed.

I didn't disagree with cars being fashion accessories, all the rappers and their Escalades are a perfect example, but the 500 is not. It's a small car for people who enjoy driving.

I still have loads of fun around corners in my Ute, yet not much fun in a Fiesta. The Fiesta is more like a playstation game, point and shoot. I can't say I've ever done this, but I also imagine that powersliding in a powerful car would get your adrenaline pumping more than much else ever could while driving. Acceleration is loads of fun when you have a powerful car.

You know, there is a car show on tele here (admittedly a rather lame one), where a girl test drove the 500. All she did was take it out and go shopping buying stuff like shoes and handbags, and having lunch at a café with her girlfriends, she pretty much showed on national tele that it's a fashion statement to buy the 500.

 

[Joey D]

I still have loads of fun around corners in my Ute, yet not much fun in a Fiesta. The Fiesta is more like a playstation game, point and shoot. I can't say I've ever done this, but I also imagine that powersliding in a powerful car would get your adrenaline pumping more than much else ever could while driving. Acceleration is loads of fun when you have a powerful car.

To some people, I've driven countless Corvette's in a fairly aggressive manner and I only really had fun till I got to a corner. Fast acceleration wears off quickly, especially when you pull into the fuel station.

You know, there is a car show on tele here (admittedly a rather lame one), where a girl test drove the 500. All she did was take it out and go shopping buying stuff like shoes and handbags, and having lunch at a café with her girlfriends, she pretty much showed on national tele that it's a fashion statement to buy the 500.

Right because that means anything, just because one girl took it shopping makes it a fashion accessory. Please, the Fiat 500 won the "Car of the Year 2008" as Moglet pointed out, it's doing something more then appealing to young girls who go shopping.

Reposted Link: http://www.caroftheyear.org/pages/Coty08.htm

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

To some people, I've driven countless Corvette's in a fairly aggressive manner and I only really had fun till I got to a corner. Fast acceleration wears off quickly, especially when you pull into the fuel station.



Right because that means anything, just because one girl took it shopping makes it a fashion accessory. Please, the Fiat 500 won the "Car of the Year 2008" as Moglet pointed out, it's doing something more then appealing to young girls who go shopping.

Reposted Link: http://www.caroftheyear.org/pages/Coty08.htm

COTY is based primarily on things like fuel efficiency and features packed in. Fun is not a measurable attribute, so COTY means nothing to me at all. The review shows that if not most, then certainly a few will use it as fashion accessories.
It doesn't matter if your in the Fiat either, if you're slamming the throttle everywhere you'll pay for it at a fuel station and in wear and tear on the engine. Acceleration never seems to wear off on me, and neither does cornering. Cars are fun.

 

[Joey D]

A few people can use any vehicle as a fashion accessory, I mean look at all the 15 year old rusted out Honda Civics that people try to turn into an import tuner and fail. They are using that as a fashion accessory, but does that make all Honda Civic's that way? No not at all.

And I doubt you'll pay for it at the fuel station, I don't slam my throttle but I'm not an easy driver by any means an I still can get mid-30's with my fuel economy. I have to imagine the Fiat is more economical then the MINI and just as, if not, better in the corners while having a similar fun-factor.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

A few people can use any vehicle as a fashion accessory, I mean look at all the 15 year old rusted out Honda Civics that people try to turn into an import tuner and fail. They are using that as a fashion accessory, but does that make all Honda Civic's that way? No not at all.

And I doubt you'll pay for it at the fuel station, I don't slam my throttle but I'm not an easy driver by any means an I still can get mid-30's with my fuel economy. I have to imagine the Fiat is more economical then the MINI and just as, if not, better in the corners while having a similar fun-factor.

At last year's Bathurst 12hr event a diesel Alfa Romeo was getting 12L/100km under endurance race conditions. Naturally then he wouldn't have been going all out, so maybe 13L/100km under full throttle duty, for a diesel. I get under 10L/100km in my Ute, and by all means that will improve as I improve my aerodynamics and engine efficiency over time. I give it some everywhere I go, I should get in the low 9L/100km if I try hard. No matter what car you're in, you'll pay if you put the foot down everywhere.

PS- We only know of 2 people through GTP that have bought a 500, and one bought it as a fashion accessory.[/Case in point]

 

[Moglet]

For the money of the 500 one could get say a mazda 2 which is just as fun to drive, if not more so.

I've driven a Mazda 2, it's nowhere near as fun. You don't get that same happy rear end or high revving engine, it's got more torque lower down in the rev range.

As for it being a fashion accessory, 1 person from GTPlanet has bought one as a fashion item, but go to the Fiat Forum and ask there and it will be a whole different matter. People are already remapping the 1.4s for even more fun, and they definitely didn't buy them as a fashion item!

I'm not trying to write off people's opinions here because they're all valid and the 500 is definitely not a car for everyone, but to say people are buying it purely as an accessory just because other cars are cheaper is a tad ridiculous. People look at cars and think about more than just features for the price when it comes to buying. The 500 is a car you buy with your heart, not your head. But with a 5 star safety rating, plenty of features, £30 a year tax, good MPG and general cheap running costs, it satisfies the logical side of me too.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

As for it being a fashion accessory, 1 person from GTPlanet has bought one as a fashion item, but go to the Fiat Forum and ask there and it will be a whole different matter. People are already remapping the 1.4s for even more fun, and they definitely didn't buy them as a fashion item!

And what percentage of the 500 buying population do you think they represent? Probably a small one.

 

[Famine]

What do you mean until the SL65 Black actually exists?

I think he means until it's a production car possibly. It seems a few people are saying the car is still just a concept, I personally have no idea though.

Same thing as I said when I said I voted for the car that actually exists.

There won't be a production model of the Black until November.

I still have loads of fun around corners in my Ute, yet not much fun in a Fiesta. The Fiesta is more like a playstation game, point and shoot. I can't say I've ever done this, but I also imagine that powersliding in a powerful car would get your adrenaline pumping more than much else ever could while driving. Acceleration is loads of fun when you have a powerful car.

Pffft. I can (and have) hold a four-wheel drift in a Mk3 Ford Fiesta, and I'm not exactly Tiff Needell.

 

[Danny]

I am Mercedes.

 

[Kent]

I'd like to see this not turn into an argument again.
First it started with what a fun FF could be, then if a FF could be fun, then if it could drift, then if certain people could drift it... The whole time comments were taken as personal attacks and some of the time they were...

Please keep this on topic...
Your vote and the reason for you vote.
Keep the SL and 500 in mind please. 👍

 

[homeforsummer]

Whaa? Have you just deleted an entire page, Kent?

 

[Kent]

Whaa? Have you just deleted an entire page, Kent?

No, an entire page was deleted by an AI and left my name on each deleted reply, then the AI posted a reply warning people about keeping the topic in check and used my account to make that reply.
I thought the message was pretty straight forward. 👍 Keep it on topic.

 

[Joey D]

I believe it's all relevant discussion though because ultimately this thread is about is whether a small, FWD, inexpensive car is better or worse then a large, RWD, expensive car. There is bound to be discussion that isn't 100% relevant, all threads end up like that. If we start talking about say the presidential elections, then I would say it's getting off topic. What is the point of discussion board when we aren't allowed to discuss freely?

This thread would be very boring with people just saying "I voted for the Mercedes because I think it's better". I honestly wouldn't want to read 100 or so posts like that. Even then though you are going to find people bringing in various outside examples, such as the the drifting because of what this poll boils down to.

 

[Venari]

Pffft. I can (and have) hold a four-wheel drift in a Mk3 Ford Fiesta, and I'm not exactly Tiff Needell.

Me too, an a 1.1 at that. The FTO is rather good at it, but you have to commit. Usually it has to be cold, or damp, or else you're on a proper mission.

Anyhow, I voted 500. The SL65 is impressive, but it's too much car. I think you have to able to use a good proportion of any car's capabilities in a wide range of conditions - not least of which is jumping in and going to the shops wilthout looking like a donkey. The 500 achieves this in spades. Even the GT-R and R8 are capable of it. If you're hauling three kids and the dog, the Commodore would do it too. With the Merc, I can't help thinking you're not going to the shop, you're just stopping for sweets on the way to the 'ring.

 

[Kent]

I believe it's all relevant discussion though because ultimately this thread is about is whether a small, FWD, inexpensive car is better or worse then a large, RWD, expensive car. There is bound to be discussion that isn't 100% relevant, all threads end up like that. If we start talking about say the presidential elections, then I would say it's getting off topic. What is the point of discussion board when we aren't allowed to discuss freely?

This thread would be very boring with people just saying "I voted for the Mercedes because I think it's better". I honestly wouldn't want to read 100 or so posts like that. Even then though you are going to find people bringing in various outside examples, such as the the drifting because of what this poll boils down to.

No, actually, that's not how I see this and I'm sure an outsider would agree.

This is not a philosophical discussion of a lightweight, low-powered FWD and a heavy, powerful RWD.

This is an actual discussion of the SL65 AMG (as we expect to see in the production model) and the Fiat 500 (in whatever form you're using to justify a vote in the "best car series").

The replies I deleted were made with regards to many other subjects but rarely if ever the subject at hand.

Please consider this my final warning... Continued off topic arguments, personal attacks, unfounded statements, and any other non Fiat 500 v. SL65 Black discussion will result in thread closure.

Thanks for your understanding,
Good day

 

[homeforsummer]

No, an entire page was deleted by an AI and left my name on each deleted reply, then the AI posted a reply warning people about keeping the topic in check and used my account to make that reply.
I thought the message was pretty straight forward. 👍 Keep it on topic.

Thanks for the sarcasm 👍 Anyway, message understood.

As far as I'm concerned, at least the 500 will be used for the purpose for which it's intended - driving around town. Part of me doubts the SL Black, being Merc's hardcore track-oriented versions, will often be found on track days or the like...

 

[Moglet]

And what percentage of the 500 buying population do you think they represent? Probably a small one.

Nowhere near as small as that one person you mentioned earlier. I got another 500 driver flashing their lights at me this morning, it was a middle aged man. So far, almost all of the ones I've seen have been driven by middle aged men. Maybe they're having a mid life crisis?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Nowhere near as small as that one person you mentioned earlier. I got another 500 driver flashing their lights at me this morning, it was a middle aged man. So far, almost all of the ones I've seen have been driven by middle aged men. Maybe they're having a mid life crisis?

Sounds like the 2K5+ Mustangs around here.

Oh wait! Over there you guys remember the 500. Here people remember the Mustangs, Challengers, Camaros, 'Cudas, etc...

Now we need a 2CV remake. Oooor not.

 

[homeforsummer]

Sounds like the 2K5+ Mustangs around here.

Oh wait! Over there you guys remember the 500. Here people remember the Mustangs, Challengers, Camaros, 'Cudas, etc...

Now we need a 2CV remake. Oooor not.

I would post a picture of the 2CV concept, but it would be off topic...

I didn't realise the 500 was a mid-life crisis car, the only people I've seen driving them are younger drivers, mostly young women. The MINI seems mostly younger drivers too, maybe early 20s to mid 30s.

 

[Joey D]

Nowhere near as small as that one person you mentioned earlier. I got another 500 driver flashing their lights at me this morning, it was a middle aged man. So far, almost all of the ones I've seen have been driven by middle aged men. Maybe they're having a mid life crisis?

That's cool there is a culture about the car, I assume you wave to each other as well and park near each other too. Like I said, the 500 is probably bought by either middle aged men or young geeks, since it's in the same target demographic as the MINI.

 

[Moglet]

That's cool there is a culture about the car, I assume you wave to each other as well and park near each other too. Like I said, the 500 is probably bought by either middle aged men or young geeks, since it's in the same target demographic as the MINI.

I would park near another one if I could find one but yeah we wave and flash our lights at each other! I parked mine on it's own near the local church the other day and had an elderly couple stop and look at it while I was at the cash point. They crapped themselves when the central locking activated since I was walking towards it

 

[Dave A]

And what's the price like compared to the MINI, which is it's actual rival?...

The Mini is a bigger car, notably so. The Mini is also overpriced compared to rivals. However as joey stated, he paid the premium because it's a fun car but the premium yuo pay for a Mini (new at least) must surely take the cars looks into the mix. Now I'm not saying the 500 isn't fun, but it's widely reported that it's not as fun to drive as the Panda, so where's the extra 2 grand then. Certainly not on standard kit. It costs £2,000 more largly thanks to it's "trendy" looks. I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of paying the premium, that's a personal issue that each and every one of us is entitled to, I'm just stating my view on the car and it's price. Trendy cars cost more, simple fact, if the car is trendy it will develop a following and a following that will be willing to pay the premium. Again I'm not criticising the people who do, but there is no way you can argue that compared to it's proper rivals, ie cars that are in the same class size and kit wise, the 500 is overpriced on average by over a grand. Not a lot of cash, but for a sub £8k car that's a hefty percentage.

I've driven a Mazda 2, it's nowhere near as fun. You don't get that same happy rear end or high revving engine, it's got more torque lower down in the rev range.

Fair do, but have you driven the Panda?

As for it being a fashion accessory, 1 person from GTPlanet has bought one as a fashion item, but go to the Fiat Forum and ask there and it will be a whole different matter. People are already remapping the 1.4s for even more fun, and they definitely didn't buy them as a fashion item!

I guess I can accept that this will vary, where I live based on what I see there's more people that buy them purely based on looks than anything else. And I see a few.

I'm not trying to write off people's opinions here because they're all valid and the 500 is definitely not a car for everyone, but to say people are buying it purely as an accessory just because other cars are cheaper is a tad ridiculous. People look at cars and think about more than just features for the price when it comes to buying.

Why did you buy the 500 over the Panda? It wasn't because you get more kit, you don't. According to several reviews on/in programs and magazines it wasn't because the 500 is more fun, though that's subjective there is a general consensus being thorwn about. It wasn't because it's got more room, it hasn't. It wasn't becasue it's cheaper to own, it isn't. It wasn't because it cooks your breakfast, it doesn't. Okay I don't know how the last one got in there, but do you see my point? I don't mind people liking and buying the 500, I'd just rather not accept that people bought it because it's superb value when you can get more for less from the same company, let alone all the cheaper options from all the rivals.

The 500 is a car you buy with your heart, not your head. But with a 5 star safety rating, plenty of features, £30 a year tax, good MPG and general cheap running costs, it satisfies the logical side of me too.

It clearly is a car you buy with your heart, nothing wrong with that if you like it, but the cheap tax, good mpg and general cheap running costs aren't exactly alien to it's rivals, which generally cover all that too.

Once again I'd like to stress, there is nothing wrong with buying a car that's a bit more exensive because you like the style of it more. I just don't accept the "it's great value" when it clearly isn't. We'd all be driving the most boring cars ever if it was all about value for money, and I did state that the SL65 was in the same boat. However my personal reason for picking the SL65 was simply that being put in situations where I'm looking for a car in each class, the SL65 though being unlikely that I'd actually buy it, would be at least considered, well given a test drive. The 500 wouldn't, the Panda might though.

 

[Tornado]

It wasn't becasue it's cheaper to own, it isn't. It wasn't because it cooks your breakfast, it doesn't.

Just another thing the Dodge Viper does better than all other cars.

 

[homeforsummer]

However my personal reason for picking the SL65 was simply that being put in situations where I'm looking for a car in each class, the SL65 though being unlikely that I'd actually buy it, would be at least considered, well given a test drive. The 500 wouldn't, the Panda might though.

Interesting point - in the same situation, the SL wouldn't get one fifth of a look-in if I had that sort of money to spend on a performance car, but if I was in the market for a small car, it would be a decision between the MINI, the 500 and the Mazda 2.

Objectively, here are a few basic figures:

MINI One 1.4 3dr Mazda 2 1.5 Sport 3dr Fiat 500 1.4 Sport 3dr

Price (£) 11,870 11,344 10,845
Power (bhp) 93 101 100
Torque (lb.ft) 103 101 97
0-60mph (s) 10.6 10.1 10.2
Top speed (mph) 115 117 113
Economy (mpg) 53 47 44
Insurance (group) 5 5 6

When compared to it's direct rivals (and let's be honest even though the 500 is a little smaller it's still of reasonable size, and rear passengers get a better deal than they do in the MINI), the FIAT is competitive on most grounds, apart from price, where it's £1k cheaper than even the base MINI (and I chose the top-spec 1.4 500 for comparison - I could have chosen a lower model).

Sure, people are likely to buy the 500 based on style reasons, but then that's what the entire segment of the market buys a car based on. It can't be compared to the Panda as the Panda is more bargain basement, and likely has more conservative buyers (like, I dunno, James May...). The 500 is more youthful, more trendy... like a MINI buyer. And compared to the MINI, it's much better value. Even the Mazda, which would probably be my choice of the three, doesn't have the image of the MINI or 500.

So my point, the 500 is probably more appealing in it's class than the SL AMG thing is when put against it's rivals. Subjectively, and maybe even objectively in some factors, the 500 is the better car.

On a side note, I'd be very interested to test drive a 500 as it's the only one of the trio above I haven't sampled, and I'd fancy another go in the Mazda as my experience with it was disappointingly brief.

It's also interesting to mention that currently if you asked for a discount on the list price of the MINI or 500, they'd spit out their coffee laughing. If you did the same at Mazda, you could probably shave a good couple of hundred off list.

 

[Jim Prower]

Fiat. Pure and simple, not ridiculously expensive, nor incredibly obscure. Truly a wonderful little small car.

 

[McLaren]

Same thing as I said when I said I voted for the car that actually exists.

There won't be a production model of the Black until November.

Fair enough, but I personally think there could have been a better word in the place of "exists".

 

[Moglet]

Why did you buy the 500 over the Panda? It wasn't because you get more kit, you don't. According to several reviews on/in programs and magazines it wasn't because the 500 is more fun, though that's subjective there is a general consensus being thorwn about. It wasn't because it's got more room, it hasn't. It wasn't becasue it's cheaper to own, it isn't. It wasn't because it cooks your breakfast, it doesn't.

Because I wanted a fun looking car that was newer and more interesting, aswell as more unique, than the Panda. I did choose it over the Panda because of it's looks, I detest the way the Panda looks and the interior is just so bland it's ridiculous. But I didn't buy the car just for it to look good.

You seem to be getting two things mixed up, you're saying that people are buying them just as an accessory. I think you'll find that actually people are looking at the Panda and the 500 and seeing the 500 for a bit more for a better interior, better looks, higher customisability and a newer model in general.

Let's compare just those models for a second;

Base model 500 Base model Panda
£8,100.........£6,950
0-60 12 secs...0-60 14.5 secs
Tax Band B...Tax Band C
55 MPG......49 MPG

The base models are obviously different in cost, if you're looking to spend as little as possible then get the Panda but when you start speccing them up you can simply jump to the Lounge model on the 500 (like mine, I wanted more than the standard model) and get more for your money, looking at the specs the next model up in the Panda range jumps to almost £9k.

What you get for that price is better wipers, heated mirrors and climate control. The 500 is £9,500 so for an extra £500 you can get better MPG, a better tax band, a quicker car PLUS the bluetooth and usb kit, steering wheel controls, glass roof, ashtray and cigar kit, 50/50 split rear seats with height adjust rear headrests, 5 more airbags and a 7 speaker stereo. And IMO it looks better.

Suddenly the Panda doesn't look so cheap. Spec it up with all that and you're looking at almost £10k for a car that is still slower than the 500!

 

[Joey D]

Moglet, I understand what you are saying and couldn't agree more. I could have easily bought the cheaper Yaris, which is a similar size and gets similar fuel economy as my car but there was something about the MINI that drew me to it. A lot of people are going to do the same thing with the 500. As I've said, there wouldn't be a premium price on the car if there weren't people willing to pay it.

If everyone bought the most logical car we'd all be driving around in generic looking Camry like vehicles, because really no one needs more than that. However, we are humans and we have wants.

 

[Tornado]

Moglet, I understand what you are saying and couldn't agree more. I could have easily bought the cheaper Yaris, which is a similar size and gets similar fuel economy as my car but there was something about the MINI that drew me to it.

Probably the fact that the Yaris is a piece of crap.

 

[Joey D]

Probably the fact that the Yaris is a piece of crap.

Well I didn't think to highly of it, but it's really all I needed in a vehicle. It was small, good fuel economy, cheap-ish insurance, and reliable. That's all I needed, but I chose the MINI which is thousands more and probably less reliable and defiantly more expensive to maintain. I'm sure people who bought the 500 went through similar thought processes, they know they could have gotten a similar vehicle cheaper but they went with the more expensive FIAT because there was some sort of x factor with it.