2008 French Grand Prix

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Seeing "Fiat" and knowing how the damaged was caused made me :lol:

;)
 
That press conference was awesome.
I cracked up at Massa thanking Shell in particular, stressing on the importance of having "good fuel and good lube...lubricant"

But I still can't see how people still think Hamilton is unlucky and/or victimised. He passed the STR (I think) on the straight coming up to the chicane. To do so, he had to brake wayyy too late for the corner, and had to straightline it. Thus, if he hadn't gone straight, he wouldn't have made the place. The rules say you can't do that. He didn't give the place back. He got penalised. How is that harsh?
 
It is not harsh. I may have implied that he should not have gotten the penalty, but that is completely the opposite from what I meant. I put no real thought into it because I did not really care one way or the other. Hamilton was not going to be involved in the race at all because of the prior ten spot grid penalty. Even without the drive through penalty, he still would have figured very little into the race; though, he may have been able to get into the lower levels of the points.

It was a dumb mistake by Hamilton to not yield the mistake. I thought very little of it before the penalty was given out and very little of it after the penalty was given, mainly because I did not care one way or the other.
 
You can't pass someone knowing that you run off the track (advantage). If you just cut the track to maintain a pass, then that's against the rules and an unfair advantage. He didn't give the spot back, so he got a penalty for it.
 
Well, I see the race backs up my hypothesis that Hamilton is a poor driver when in traffic and not racing for the up-front positions.
 
gave Massa his 7th win of his career
8th! 8th! He won Turkey and Brasil in 2006, Bahrain, Spain and Turkey in 2006, and this year has won in Bahrain, Turkey and now in France. 8! I have them all gold coated and on shiny oak pedestals, not far from my secret Rafaela collection.

I think maybe how unlucky kimi was today, Massa was similarly unlucky in Brasil of last year. Different cases, but both gave away races to each other in situations out of their hands.
 
Well, I see the race backs up my hypothesis that Hamilton is a poor driver when in traffic and not racing for the up-front positions.

Yeah you were right. i think he is going to have to learn to drive better in traffic. For all the hype he is still not yet a great driver. Good but not great but I do think he can be a great driver.
 
kjb
Yeah you were right. i think he is going to have to learn to drive better in traffic. For all the hype he is still not yet a great driver. Good but not great but I do think he can be a great driver.
Well the thing is that when you go back and compare every driver in a team that has won a race recently, they've all known what it's like to struggle for a season where they're pretty much racing for the title of Best of the Rest instead of the podium. Raikkonen endured years of frustration with McLaren; I think he was carrying the number 9 or 10 at one stage there, so you can see where the team had finished the year before. Massa was driving for Sauber before the BMW partnership and while the team had a histoy of reliablity, he certainly didn't. Kovalainen lasted a year in an absolute dog of a car carrying the Renault badge; to me, he was a far better rookie than Hamilton because he kept improving ather than just staying in the one place all year. Heidfeld was driving for Prost, so that's enough said there. Kubica's the only other top-flight driver who hasn't been in a bad team for a year, but last year BMW were still in the ranks of Teams That Won't Win This Year, and he's had some poor qualifying results in the past.

But Hamilton is the exception, not the rule. He's always been gifted with a good car, a competitive car. If he hasn't won the race outright, he's been fighting for position; after all, he went for nine straight races where he finished on the podium. Only on four occasions has he been in the midfield without lapping them, an on four occasions he's proven that he's really not what the other drivers are made of. Felipe Massa charged through the field at Australia last year; Coulthard did the same at Bahrain. In fact, if you look closely enough, you'll probably find that a lot of the drivers - the competitive ones, at least - have done the same. But Hamilton hasn't. He's proven underwhelmingly underwhelming on every occasion when, if the hype is anything to go by, he should be carving through the field like a hot knife through butter.
 
There's confirmation from the Speed Report that Magny-Cours will be back to race on for about the next two years. Also, Indianapolis will likely be host to the United States Grand Prix for 2009. But back to France for a moment and a question I've been thinking of...


John's Debate! - The 90 Minutes of Le Mans?
If Magny-Cours was no longer host of the French Grand Prix, would you want to see F1 at the Bugatti Circuit? Do you think Bugatti Circuit would have the facilities and such to provide for a Grand Prix in this day and age?



Congratulations to Felipe Massa(?) on his win. Go ahead and play "Tema di Vitoria" as this Brazilian won in France. Or is that song only reserved for the late great Aryton Senna?
 
Fixed for you. :dopey:


Ha ha ha, liked it 👍


I read on the ITV website that Ron said Lewis was pushed wide? Hmm, I dont think so, I thought the same as Mr. P as he shouldve redressed, then had another crack at Vettel. No problems then.

Sorry guys, I had no idea the James Allen is reviled in England ;) also. Just an assumption on my behalf
 
Umm... What? :odd:
Okay, maybe I didn't explain the situation very well. He was using a low-er downforce setup on his car to keep up on the long straight leading to the Adelaide hairpin (remember, both Renault did have a high speed trap. Almost matching the top team and as well all know, they don't have a powerful engine) but has said to the pit radio that his car was oversteering and was hard to drive. He had the pace because he was light on fuel, but after that first pit stop, he was clearly struggling and lost time and was the same after his second stop which Webber was able to leapfrog him.
Better now? :rolleyes:

8th! 8th!
Okay..... so I got it wrong, big deal..... 👎

Anyhow, this race should be remembered for a long time as it will be the last race here (unless Bernie lied about not racing here) and hopefully there will be a good replacement for this circuit..... there has been a few good races here, but unfortunately this years race isn't as much "exciting" as it was back during the Schumacher era...... :(
 
John's Debate! - The 90 Minutes of Le Mans?
If Magny-Cours was no longer host of the French Grand Prix, would you want to see F1 at the Bugatti Circuit? Do you think Bugatti Circuit would have the facilities and such to provide for a Grand Prix in this day and age?

Le Mans Bugatti has the facilities alright, but for Formula 1, it's just bland - it's even boring with MotoGP and sportscars, and if you take a look at the layout, it's all high-speed curves, which are a killer for F1 cars in traffic: We'll have less overtaking than at any other dedicated track. They'll probably built a new circuit from scratch - Bernie's after Paris, with either a street-circuit or one in Disneyland. For some reason, the idea of Donald Duck in a McLaren scares the **** out of me.

Okay, maybe I didn't explain the situation very well. He was using a low-er downforce setup on his car to keep up on the long straight leading to the Adelaide hairpin but has said to the pit radio that his car was oversteering and was hard to drive. He had the pace because he was light on fuel, but after that first pit stop, he was clearly struggling and lost time and was the same after his second stop which Webber was able to leapfrog him.
Better now? :rolleyes:

Webber was able to leapfrog him, twice, on strategy alone - he stayed out two more laps on both stints, but was definitely slower in the third and final (therefore, equally-fueled) stint. The only thing Alonso (as well as Piquet, Hamilton, Kovalainen, etc) struggled with was overtaking the slower car ahead - Webber in this case. He was all over his diffuser for quite a few laps, and had he not run wide into that hairpin, their order could've remained the same for another 20 laps. Yes, he and Piquet oversteered occasionally, but that's a trait of the R28's design itself, similar to the STR2 of last year - a suspension and chassis issue - and fixing it by adding rear downforce is the wrong engineering approach. That's why the suspension was updated for Barcelona, and another update is scheduled for Silverstone.

(remember, both Renault did have a high speed trap. Almost matching the top team and as well all know, they don't have a powerful engine)

They may not have quite the power the Ferraris have at the moment, but even then, it's not by more than 20hp. Remember, when Adrian Newey had to pick engines for Red Bull and Toro Rosso, he got offers from both teams. He stated in an interview that the choice wasn't very difficult, because the differences were minute - small differences in the torque-curve, and that's it, and that he then picked the Renault because of the packaging-requirements. That choice was made after the freeze - and the only ones that updated their engines after the freeze are Ferrari.

Renault have quite the aerodynamic department - their R25 and R26 produced the most downforce in the field, probably - and their R28 design is quite well adapted to low-downforce circuits. They probably did run a little less downforce than other teams - notice how Piquet pulled away at every straight, even from the slippery McLarens - but it was obviously within the reasonable amount required for Magny Cours, otherwise they'd run in trouble in the fast corners, which they didn't.

Anyhow, this race should be remembered for a long time as it will be the last race here (unless Bernie lied about not racing here) and hopefully there will be a good replacement for this circuit..... there has been a few good races here, but unfortunately this years race isn't as much "exciting" as it was back during the Schumacher era...... :(

It's already been reconfirmed to host the French GP for the next two years, so it's not the last. :p

I'm sorry, who? Is this someone on GT5:P?

Wiki's page.
 
Good for Jarno...
Alonso's performance was disappointing compared to qualifying...
Hamilton drove impetuously... and lady luck smiles for Massa, a win is a win. I watched out of dedication, nothing more. I've seen better Grands Prix. Piquet bought some time with that drive of his. He'll always remember the day he passed Alonso, who just wasn't 'on'. Oh, well. Ce la vie...
 
But Hamilton is the exception, not the rule. He's always been gifted with a good car, a competitive car. If he hasn't won the race outright, he's been fighting for position; after all, he went for nine straight races where he finished on the podium. Only on four occasions has he been in the midfield without lapping them, an on four occasions he's proven that he's really not what the other drivers are made of. Felipe Massa charged through the field at Australia last year; Coulthard did the same at Bahrain. In fact, if you look closely enough, you'll probably find that a lot of the drivers - the competitive ones, at least - have done the same. But Hamilton hasn't. He's proven underwhelmingly underwhelming on every occasion when, if the hype is anything to go by, he should be carving through the field like a hot knife through butter.
All I can say then is stop listening to the stupid hype.

Hamilton is only in his second year in F1 and as such would have only realistically driven for one team, yes he is fortunate that team is McLaren, however to then go and try and claim that he has never proven himself against other drivers on a level playing field is nonsense.

I take it you are aware of GP2? A formula series with identical cars, with very tight limits on set-up. A series which he came won in 2006, including a number of drives from the back of the field through to a high finish, most impressively in Istanbul, when after a spin that left him 18th he drove a blinding race to finish 2nd.

Magny-Cours is a track that is renowned for being poor in terms of overtaking spots and has for years been criticised for producing dull races as a result. Had it not been for the drive through penalty (which was his own fault - but do you really want to discuss the number of drivers, many top level, that get drive through penalties) its a good bet that he would have finished in the points.

I really do struggle to understand is the number of people who seem to write as if Hamilton just dropped out of the sky straight into an F1 car, he started racing at a young age and has had a lot of success and a lot of good races in his past.


Le Mans Bugatti is pretty bland as a racing circuit. It's likely that the French Grand Prix will move - as planned - to a venue in or near Paris ... but Mr. E has gone and done a backflip on a backflip he previously backflipped on
Even if BE had not changed his mind it was unlikely to happen anyway, the ACO had already said that they were not interested in an F1 race.


Sorry guys, I had no idea the James Allen is reviled in England ;) also. Just an assumption on my behalf
See you guys are new to the dislike James Allen with a passion team, we've been at it for years. I seriously can't wait until next year, Formula 1 without commercial breaks and with no James Allen.


Regards

Scaff
 
All I can say then is stop listening to the stupid hype.

Hamilton is only in his second year in F1 and as such would have only realistically driven for one team, yes he is fortunate that team is McLaren, however to then go and try and claim that he has never proven himself against other drivers on a level playing field is nonsense.



He's still a rookie, effectively. You don't come into F1 and turn into the finished article straight away. How long did it take Raikkonen/Schumacher, etc? But then he is an English driver, and while James Allen has his hands down his pants, the hype is going to be high. I feel sorry for him sometimes, once the BBC gets coverage next season, it will ease up on him though. They tend to be less biassed (to an extent).
 
He's still a rookie, effectively. You don't come into F1 and turn into the finished article straight away. How long did it take Raikkonen/Schumacher, etc? But then he is an English driver, and while James Allen has his hands down his pants, the hype is going to be high. I feel sorry for him sometimes, once the BBC gets coverage next season, it will ease up on him though. They tend to be less biassed (to an extent).

Exactly my point 👍

Scaff
 
I thought Hamilton deserved the penalty.

"I think Lewis was past him - I don't think he got any road position - that's my opinion, obviously not one held by other people," Dennis said. "I think he was past. Nothing can be gained from saying anything else. We just told race control that, it was our opinion he was past before he got squeezed off the circuit."

Lewis Hamilton commented, "My drive-through penalty was an extremely close call: I felt I'd got past Vettel fairly and was ahead going into the corner. But I was on the outside and couldn't turn-in in case we both crashed, then I lost the back-end and drove over the kerb.

If he was past him, like Ron says he was, then he should have been able to turn in. In my opinion, and it seems in Lewis' too, he wasn't past Vettel completely, and he therefore gained the place by going over the inside of the chicane. He should have given it back and then there would have been no issues.

And as to the would-anyone-else-have-got-a-penalty-if-they-had-done-it query. It's a moot point as no one else did, but I would think that they would have got a penalty too.
 
Every time James Allen said "Grand Prixs" (I counted three) during the race, I wanted to shoot him with axes.

Also, how can a car with this much damage:

uyoqwczbiouaxzfyroh.jpg

still pass the weigh-in above the minimum weight requirement? All that CF burned away, not to mention a titanium exhaust in absentia must add up to a pretty decent chunk of absent weight, especially given how close to the limit they run these things...
 
Every time James Allen said "Grand Prixs" (I counted three) during the race, I wanted to shoot him with axes.

Also, how can a car with this much damage:


still pass the weigh-in above the minimum weight requirement? All that CF burned away, not to mention a titanium exhaust in absentia must add up to a pretty decent chunk of absent weight, especially given how close to the limit they run these things...

Because its red.

:)

Scaff
 
unfixable things on the car dont break weight rules
you guys are totally paranoid. get over it

same thing happend to schumi in year 2000 at monaco gp. but that time cracked exhaust has broken his suspension and he was out of race.
man I remember that race well. schumi was driving over 1 second faster than 2nd driver each lap. brilliant drive unlucky end.
 
unfixable things on the car dont break weight rules
you guys are totally paranoid. get over it

I understand the first bit but not the second.

How can asking a sensible question mean I'm paranoid?
 
unfixable things on the car dont break weight rules
you guys are totally paranoid. get over it

same thing happend to schumi in year 2000 at monaco gp. but that time cracked exhaust has broken his suspension and he was out of race.
man I remember that race well. schumi was driving over 1 second faster than 2nd driver each lap. brilliant drive unlucky end.

Did you miss this.....


:)



.....?


Scaff
 
So what are the regulations regarding what counts as weight and what doesn't? I can't believe you can get away with an underweight damaged car, or the drivers would just run superlight cars and "accidentally" take the front wings off in collisions on the cool-down lap.
 
So what are the regulations regarding what counts as weight and what doesn't? I can't believe you can get away with an underweight damaged car, or the drivers would just run superlight cars and "accidentally" take the front wings off in collisions on the cool-down lap.

Good point, and me being me, just had to check.

For an FIA regulation its quite clear and straight forward

ARTICLE 4 : WEIGHT
4.1 Minimum weight :
The weight of the car must not be less than 605kg at all times during the Event.
4.2 Ballast :
Ballast can be used provided it is secured in such a way that tools are required for its removal. It must be possible to fix seals if deemed necessary by the FIA technical delegate.
4.3 Adding during the race :
With the exception of fuel and compressed gases, no substance may be added to the car during the race. If it becomes necessary to replace any part of the car during the race, the new part must not weigh any more than the original part.
Source - http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/115F0A1E47E0A282C12573FB0042CB0D/$FILE/1-2008%20F1%20TECHNICAL%20REGULATIONS%2022-02-2008.pdf

Taken directly from the technical regulations.

However the sporting regulations do then say...

The relevant car may be excluded should its weight be less than that specified in Article 4.1 of the Technical Regulations when weighed under a) or b) above, save where the deficiency in weight results from the accidental loss of a component of the car.
Source - http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46002BEDAC125744F004312F4/$FILE/F1.SPORTING.REGULATIONS.19-05-2008.pdf


So the car was in the clear. However it was still a perfectly valid question from Famine and Rainmaster's tone was not really needed.


Regards

Scaff
 
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