2008 Fuji GP

[Tired Tyres]

Five teams and seven different drivers have won a Formula 1 Grand Prix this season.

No one knows who is going to win any particular race in advance of that race happening.
What does everyone, including me, talk about?

Anything but what is a great F1 season.

Thank you FIA, you've done a grand job.

 

[PeterJB]

Five teams and seven different drivers have won a Formula 1 Grand Prix this season.

No one knows who is going to win any particular race in advance of that race happening.
What does everyone, including me, talk about?

Anything but what is a great F1 season.

Thank you FIA, you've done a grand job.

Amen to that! This has been the year of inconsistency!

 

[Sureboss]

He doesn't drive like a rookie at all, he makes mistakes like a rookie, which is a totally different thing.

When Hamilton is driving to his level of ability only a few other drivers on the track can match his pace, however he is prone to make mistakes that experience may remove (but not always hence my comment about Alonso).


Regards

Scaff

It may be my knackeredness, but that "It's a bemusing comment" wasn't directed at you, Scaff.

Seems I've invented a new word.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

ok as for the people asking what would driving in a midfield team accomplish well thats simple. it will teach you not to make dumb rookie mistakes. it will teach you that if you want any chance of winning you have to drive perfectly from beginning to end. its going to teach you that even in F1 the best driver dosnt always win but the one with the most money behind him. that way when a midfield driver goes to a top team he should in theory be better drivers. they wont be making rookie mistakes and lose the championship because of rushing thengs and crashing your car in the back of your in pit lane. or beaching your car in the sand trap on the way to pit lane. the drive will think through his race instead of just running headlong into it with no fore thought. (there are the odd ones that dont fit thesis theory and dont perform as well as they should)

 

[Scaff]

It may be my knackeredness, but that "It's a bemusing comment" wasn't directed at you, Scaff.

Seems I've invented a new word.

No problem and congratulations on the new word 👍


Scaff

 

[Hun200kmh]

I think Massa and Hamilton are very leveled. They are capable of the "best" and they are capable of the "worst". Neither of them has had a faultless season, both of them have made some stunning races.

In the end, Hamilton has the advantage because he is driving a car that didn't fail on him so far (like it happened to Massa in Hungary, taking 10 points away from him), and to a team that knows how to do their pitwork (Singapore, another 10 points).

And the only reason why Hamilton hasn't a more substancial lead (5 points now) is because of the stewards decision in Spa (a wrong decision, in my view). Apart from his own mistakes, but that can be said about Massa aswell.

I may be influenced for this last GP, but in my view the best F1 driver so far in this championship has to be Kubica (Alonso could also be named, but his move in Monaco is hard to forget. And I don't understand what's wrong with Kimi, knowing what he is capable of my only guess is that he doesn't really care that much anymore).

 

[Ardius]

And I don't understand what's wrong with Kimi, knowing what he is capable of my only guess is that he doesn't really care that much anymore).

I've come to the conlusion he's just a rubbish racer, he seems to get trapped behind drivers when he doesn't qualify well, but as soon as he gets past he flies off. Perhaps too conservative with his overtaking and general attacking? He seems to get held up easily by people like Alonso, Trulli and Kubica a lot anyway.

 

[Famine]

ok as for the people asking what would driving in a midfield team accomplish well thats simple. it will teach you not to make dumb rookie mistakes.

Yes, that's certainly true for David Coulthard, Timo Glock, Nelson Piquet, Sebastien Bourdais, Kazuki Nakajima, Rubens Barrichello and Giancarlo Fisichella. They've absolutely not made any "dumb rookie mistakes" in their midfield cars so far this season.

that way when a midfield driver goes to a top team he should in theory be better drivers. they wont be making rookie mistakes and lose the championship because of rushing thengs and crashing your car in the back of your in pit lane. or beaching your car in the sand trap on the way to pit lane.

And that's certainly true for Massa (Sauber, 3 seasons; Ferrari) and Kovalainen (Renault, 1 season; McLaren).

(there are the odd ones that dont fit thesis theory and dont perform as well as they should)

I can't think of a single driver on the current grid to whom your theory applies, and plenty who fly in the face of it.

 

[daan]

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html

Formula1.com have made a video available with all the penalty gaining points of the GP. There doesn't seem to be a place to give comments, but at least they're showing them, and from more angles too. 👍

 

[Bram Turismo]

He seems to get held up easily by people like Alonso, Trulli and Kubica a lot anyway.

In their defence, I'd like to say that in my opinion, you just pointed out three drivers that are without any doubt the better drivers of the field, the best actually. Yes, I even think Trulli after all these years still does a bloody good job. Glock is beating him in the last half of the season, but some of his defending like at Singapore shows me why I still think of him as a great great driver. Alonso speaks for himself; getting a Renault where he took it is a thing no other driver could've possibly achieved. Kubica, future champion, 'nuff said.

 

[Sureboss]

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html

Formula1.com have made a video available with all the penalty gaining points of the GP. There doesn't seem to be a place to give comments, but at least they're showing them, and from more angles too. 👍

Definitely worth viewing. From the above video I'd say:

Incident 1:
Lewis was a bit daft to make that move, but I don't think it is anything more than a racing incident. I don't think making a naive overtaking manoeuvre should result in a penalty offence unless you are causing real danger to the opposing driver.

Incident 2:
Again, Massa was daft, but I think worse than Lewis' attempt at T1 because he went off the race track to overtake Lewis at which point he lost control of his car and took Lewis out of contention.

My opinion on Bourdais-Massa is no different.

 

[Ardius]

In their defence, I'd like to say that in my opinion, you just pointed out three drivers that are without any doubt the better drivers of the field, the best actually. Yes, I even think Trulli after all these years still does a bloody good job. Glock is beating him in the last half of the season, but some of his defending like at Singapore shows me why I still think of him as a great great driver. Alonso speaks for himself; getting a Renault where he took it is a thing no other driver could've possibly achieved. Kubica, future champion, 'nuff said.

Well, agreed, but seeing as Raikkonen is so well regarded you would have thought he would be decent at overtaking people.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Well, agreed, but seeing as Raikkonen is so well regarded you would have thought he would be decent at overtaking people.

He was until this year.

 

[Cultlife]

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html

Formula1.com have made a video available with all the penalty gaining points of the GP. There doesn't seem to be a place to give comments, but at least they're showing them, and from more angles too. 👍

1. Hamilton's tires look absolutely ragged after that first corner. He forced Kimi wide, but not off track - that was Heikki.

2. Just before Massa hits Hamilton, he gets a quick flick of opposite lock. Whether it's a deliberate attempt to make sure a stronger part hits Hamilton or just an attempt to avoid the incident is debatable, but he's basically 90 degrees to the lad, and should never have been there.

3. Interesting how they don't show that one from Bourdais' onboard. Just two very, very secluded angles. That's almost an admission of guilt, heh.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

Yes, that's certainly true for David Coulthard, Timo Glock, Nelson Piquet, Sebastien Bourdais, Kazuki Nakajima, Rubens Barrichello and Giancarlo Fisichella. They've absolutely not made any "dumb rookie mistakes" in their midfield cars so far this season.

And that's certainly true for Massa (Sauber, 3 seasons; Ferrari) and Kovalainen (Renault, 1 season; McLaren).

I can't think of a single driver on the current grid to whom your theory applies, and plenty who fly in the face of it.

ok i didnt say the midfield drivers dont make mistakes i said they learn that if they are going to win they have to make zero mistakes in there cars. lets face it any time that a mid field driver podiums he has run a perfect race with zero mistakes.

ok massa has made very few rookie mistakes. most of the problems he has are from engine problems. hekki has made very few mistakes aswell. compared to hamilton there records look almost clean. they dont sleep at the start they dont lock up into the first turn causing the whole field to have to go wide around them.ok well hekki did help hamilton with that last race. but lets face it raikkonen alonso kubica. why are these guys at the top? because they dont make dumb mistakes neraly as often as hamilton and all these drivers spent time in teams that are fighting in mid field all the time. what helps hamilton stay on top? a awesome car that can out run the field including the ferraris in most races this season. with such an awesome car he should be well infront of massa and kubica in the points but hes not because hes been making far to many dumb mistakes.

and i think my theroy works extremly well with probably the 3 best drivers in F1 IMO. kubica alonso and raikkonen. they make almost no mistakes. raikkonen and alonso are out of it because of car problems not dumb mistakes. and kubica? hes still in it and his car is not as developed as a mclaren or ferrari but he runs a perfect race over and over and as such he is still in the running for the championship.

 

[niky]

Lewis is learning.

He may make mistakes, but so what? Everyone else does.

Even everyone's favorite young guy of the moment, Vettel, had his share of (huge) boneheadedness last season... but he's matured for it. But it's not from having a bad car... he's got a halfway great car with a powerful engine in it. I doubt we'd even be talking about Vettel if he was driving, say, in Honda this year.

A good car builds confidence. Teaches you things. You aren't going to learn much sitting at the back fo the field getting lapped by everyone... but if you have a car that's fast, you can learn how to overtake, how to strategize, how to conserve your tires and fuel and defend, then how to eke out a lead on the next guy. A rubbish car merely teaches you how to block.

Lewis is a very capable, very fast and very levelheaded driver... 90% of the time. But when he's under pressure, he shows his age. Massa... well, I'd say he's at his best 80% of the time, and loses composure more often... but he's gottten better this year.

Kimi Raikonnen is still a fantastic driver. When he's on the boil, he's aggressive, very fast, and can overtake at will. But most of the time, he's either driving at just 80% of his abilities, or, as we saw when he crashed out of 4th/5th place a few races ago, at 120%. His problem this season has not been speed or ability, but consistency. It's a rough season for him... and the going has been rough for both Ferrari drivers since TC was banned... those Ferraris seem pretty twitchy when the rear end starts to go...

 

[Bram Turismo]

Well, agreed, but seeing as Raikkonen is so well regarded you would have thought he would be decent at overtaking people.

Well, that's not always true either. Take Takuma Sato for example; his Aguri never had the speed of a Ferrari, but he sure had the balls to overtake a Mclaren in a chicane

 

[Soundtrack]

Posting a video on F1.com. Am I the only who believes this is getting even more pathetic...

I would have love to see multi-angle and onboard footage from both cars involved @Spa. Hey, they could also provide some telemetry overlay charts... Anyway, I understood these kind of steward decisions where not subject to appeal, so why try to make a case with the Fuji’s ones.

{Conspiracy theory On} ...”daddy, its Nicolas, Sebastian is okay to give his position to Felippe if he can get signed for next year and STR will agree with the penalty if they can get a little extra HP’s next year... can you get the paperwork done by the end of the race...{CT Off}

 

[prisonermonkeys]

1 - This isn't the first time Lewis has had an aggressive dive down the inside that has forced someone to move off the racing line. He did it to Webber at Monza earlier in the year, and he did it at Monza last season, too. There's probably more incidents of it having happened. However, this time he braked way too late and locked the tyres up. If anything, the Powers That Be penalised him because this time he really lost control of the car; he wouldn't have been able to turn until he unlocked the brakes. And since other rivers suffered for it and lost position, he was in the wrong.

2 - I have no idea what Lewis says when he blames Massa for this one. While I don't think the Brazilian gets away completely, if Hamilton is as good asthe fact that he's in F1 suggets he is he had to know that Massa had nowhere to go except into Lewis when Massa was on the apex. Hamilton shut the door too quickly, and while Massa could well have slowed down a little, he would most likely have conceded a place. He can't be blamed for trying to take back the position he just lost.

3 - I can't really tell with this one. I think maybe it's a case of both drivers having equal blame; Massa turned in a little quickly, but what was Bourdais doing? He seemed to indicate tha he thought the apex to the corner was a few metres further down the road than it really was ...

Lewis is learning.

He may make mistakes, but so what? Everyone else does.

Maybe, but he's in his second season. Mistakes might be excuseable in his first year, but at the business end of the second, not to mention when he's fighting for the championship?

 

[Scaff]

ok massa has made very few rookie mistakes. most of the problems he has are from engine problems. hekki has made very few mistakes aswell. compared to hamilton there records look almost clean. they dont sleep at the start they dont lock up into the first turn causing the whole field to have to go wide around them.ok well hekki did help hamilton with that last race. but lets face it raikkonen alonso kubica. why are these guys at the top? because they dont make dumb mistakes neraly as often as hamilton and all these drivers spent time in teams that are fighting in mid field all the time. what helps hamilton stay on top? a awesome car that can out run the field including the ferraris in most races this season. with such an awesome car he should be well infront of massa and kubica in the points but hes not because hes been making far to many dumb mistakes.

So Hamilton is the only driver this entire season to get a bad start is he?

You also contradict yourself massively in here, your claim that Hamilton is only leading because he has a far superior car (which in itself is not true - overall the Ferrari and McLaren are very closely matched), then state that Hekki makes so few mistakes in comparison to Hamilton that he has an almost clean record. Now if thats the case, and that they both have these vastly superior cars (your claim) then would you mind explaining exactly why Hekki is not currently leading the drivers championship by a mile?

Your entire argument that Hamilton is only in the position he is because of the car is patently nonsense.

and i think my theroy works extremly well with probably the 3 best drivers in F1 IMO. kubica alonso and raikkonen. they make almost no mistakes. raikkonen and alonso are out of it because of car problems not dumb mistakes. and kubica? hes still in it and his car is not as developed as a mclaren or ferrari but he runs a perfect race over and over and as such he is still in the running for the championship.

Kubica has had some damn fine drives this year, but to say he has not made mistakes or driven to his full ability in every race is simply untrue.

Alonso has been good when his car has been good (i.e. the last half of the season), but when the car has not been good he has not put his best effort in at all; in addition he still gets the award for stupidest move of the season for T-boning another driver on what has to be the slowest corner of the entire year.

As for Raikkonen, are you watching the same season as the rest of us? I love the guy as a driver, but his heart has just not been in it this year, and his performance shows it.

1 - This isn't the first time Lewis has had an aggressive dive down the inside that has forced someone to move off the racing line. He did it to Webber at Monza earlier in the year, and he did it at Monza last season, too. There's probably more incidents of it having happened. However, this time he braked way too late and locked the tyres up. If anything, the Powers That Be penalised him because this time he really lost control of the car; he wouldn't have been able to turn until he unlocked the brakes. And since other rivers suffered for it and lost position, he was in the wrong.

OK so you are honestly saying that anytime a driver lock his tyres up and looses control of the car as a result then he should get a penalty. Holy cow the entire pack is going to be getting drive through penalties in every race given that.

I have news for you, no part of the sporting regs allow a driver to be penalised for lossing control of the car, you have just made that up. You can't get a panalty for it.

2 - I have no idea what Lewis says when he blames Massa for this one. While I don't think the Brazilian gets away completely, if Hamilton is as good asthe fact that he's in F1 suggets he is he had to know that Massa had nowhere to go except into Lewis when Massa was on the apex. Hamilton shut the door too quickly, and while Massa could well have slowed down a little, he would most likely have conceded a place. He can't be blamed for trying to take back the position he just lost.

Now apart from the fact that the 'quotes' attributed to Hamilton have been taken right out of context by many parts of the media, you now appear to be claiming that it was Hamiltons fault that someone drove into him?

By this logic can I assume that it was now KR fault that Hamilton got the penalty for the entire chicane incident because he should have predicted what was going to happen.

You appear to be making things up here in a huge way simply to support your view of how thinsg should be.

3 - I can't really tell with this one. I think maybe it's a case of both drivers having equal blame; Massa turned in a little quickly, but what was Bourdais doing? He seemed to indicate tha he thought the apex to the corner was a few metres further down the road than it really was ...

You say this about Massa (agreeing that part of the incident was his fault) and then say this....

Maybe, but he's in his second season. Mistakes might be excuseable in his first year, but at the business end of the second, not to mention when he's fighting for the championship?

...about Hamilton? Which is a direct contradiction. So Massa (in more than his second season and fighting for the Championship) is fine to make mistakes, but Hamilton is not!!!!

Got some news for you, all drivers, regardless of experience will make mistakes, particularly when fighting for a championship. Alsono actually commented on this only a few days ago....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71403

....I have to ask are you seriously claiming that any driver fighting for a championship and with over a years experience should be incapable of making a mistake?


Regards

Scaff

 

[niky]

It's called pressure. A lot of guys this season have wilted under it. Kimi has almost completely buckled under the pressure, and he's an ex-world champion with a ton of experience. When I mention his drives at 120%, that's when he'd had a race sewn up and points in the bag and committed a stupid shunt from overdriving the car. And he's done it quite a few times this season... hell... even in the first race. Massa ain't no rookie, either, but he does have the odd lapse of concentration.

Sure, it's disappointing that Lewis is showing signs of strain, but, like I've said, he's not the worst there is at dealing with it. His ability to come back at Singapore and score points, taking no un-necessary chances (his pass on DC was very clean, from what I could see) shows a good side to Lewis. The move on Kimi that he got unfairly penalized for? Lewis outbraked himself, maintained composure, gave back the position and tucked in as quickly as he could and got the slingshot past Kimi when he made his own mistake under braking. That was intelligent driving. The only driving he's done this season that you could cite as a sign of immaturity was in the race immediately afterwards, where he acted like a petty brat towards the rest of the field while carving it up. But then, that's a sign of stress, too, and he did settle down afterwards.

 

[Cultlife]

ok massa has made very few rookie mistakes. most of the problems he has are from engine problems. hekki has made very few mistakes aswell. compared to hamilton there records look almost clean. they dont sleep at the start they dont lock up into the first turn causing the whole field to have to go wide around them.ok well hekki did help hamilton with that last race. but lets face it raikkonen alonso kubica. why are these guys at the top? because they dont make dumb mistakes neraly as often as hamilton and all these drivers spent time in teams that are fighting in mid field all the time. what helps hamilton stay on top? a awesome car that can out run the field including the ferraris in most races this season. with such an awesome car he should be well infront of massa and kubica in the points but hes not because hes been making far to many dumb mistakes.

Hasn't Raikonnen lost control and put his car in the wall/into another car at least three times since Monaco?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

OK so you are honestly saying that anytime a driver lock his tyres up and looses control of the car as a result then he should get a penalty. Holy cow the entire pack is going to be getting drive through penalties in every race given that.

I have news for you, no part of the sporting regs allow a driver to be penalised for lossing control of the car, you have just made that up. You can't get a panalty for it.

And what are you saying? They're penalising Hamilton simply because they can?

What I'm saying is that while there was nothing wrong with Hamilton's move, in and of itself, it also had the effect of forcing several other drivers off the circuit. While they were able to rejoin the circuit, they lost time and track position, victims of Hamilton's circumstance.

Now apart from the fact that the 'quotes' attributed to Hamilton have been taken right out of context by many parts of the media, you now appear to be claiming that it was Hamiltons fault that someone drove into him?

By this logic can I assume that it was now KR fault that Hamilton got the penalty for the entire chicane incident because he should have predicted what was going to happen.

You appear to be making things up here in a huge way simply to support your view of how thinsg should be.

So Hamilton can blithely drive wherever he wants and not have a care for where other drivers happen to be because they'll get out of his way? He had to know that Massa was on the inside of the corner when the Brazilian didn't appear in his wing mirrors, and before you say that the situation played out too quickly for Hamilton to fully assess that, they were at relatively low speed and they're in the pinnacle of motorsport.

I don't know what you're trying to get out: you give all thse reasons as to why we're wrong, but you never give any as to why you're right ...

You say this about Massa (agreeing that part of the incident was his fault) and then say this....

...about Hamilton? Which is a direct contradiction. So Massa (in more than his second season and fighting for the Championship) is fine to make mistakes, but Hamilton is not!!!!

Got some news for you, all drivers, regardless of experience will make mistakes, particularly when fighting for a championship. Alsono actually commented on this only a few days ago....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71403

....I have to ask are you seriously claiming that any driver fighting for a championship and with over a years experience should be incapable of making a mistake?

It's not the mistakes, it's the number of them. How many mistakes has Hamilton made this year? He ran into the back of Alonso in Bahrain, then did it to Raikkonen in Canada. He was done for skipping chicanes in France, and again in Belgium. He made a dud tyre choice in Italy, and then took both himself and Webber on an off-track excursion in te race. He locked up at turn one in Japan and got penalised for it, then got into trading blows with Massa. It doesn't matter what you think of the incidents, they were all counted as such by the Powers That Be. How many similar mistakes has Massa made this year?

 

[niky]

Besides spinning and crashing out in the first two races, spinning multiple times at Silverstone (but actually finishing... so I'll count all of those as one, when in actuality, it should tie his score with Hamilton), hitting Hamilton this time by straightlining over a curb... and that tussle with Bourdais (one of the more BS penalties I've seen), not much, I guess.

And you can't blame Lewis for a dud tire choice... that was McLaren's fault. As the refueling rig (twice) was Ferrari's.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Has he raised the ire of the track marshalls with his mistakes the way Hamilton has on at least four occasions? No. If anyone has lost out because of Massa's mistakes, it has been Massa and Massa alone. Hamilton, on the other hand, hit Alonso, hit Raikkonen, hit Webber, put himself in a position to be hit by Massa and forced Raikkonen off the road at least twice (once in Japan, once in Germany).

And if you're discounting Hamilton's tyre choice in Italy, then I'm discounting Massa's retirement in Malaysia as Ferrari said it was mechanical error, not a driver mistake.

 

[Scaff]

And what are you saying? They're penalising Hamilton simply because they can?

What I'm saying is that while there was nothing wrong with Hamilton's move, in and of itself, it also had the effect of forcing several other drivers off the circuit. While they were able to rejoin the circuit, they lost time and track position, victims of Hamilton's circumstance.

What I am saying is that situations of this nature happen at almost every single first corner of every single race. Yet we don't see penalties handed out for it, more than anything I am once again moaning about the FIA and the singular lack of consistancy that is applied to races.

Given that the precdence has now been set that locking a tyre and other drivers have to move to avoid it is now worth of a penalty I expect to see it happen to every driver responsiable in future.

So Hamilton can blithely drive wherever he wants and not have a care for where other drivers happen to be because they'll get out of his way? He had to know that Massa was on the inside of the corner when the Brazilian didn't appear in his wing mirrors, and before you say that the situation played out too quickly for Hamilton to fully assess that, they were at relatively low speed and they're in the pinnacle of motorsport.

I notice that you completely avoided answering my question regarding KR, I will however answer yours.

The sporting regulations actually make the following driver the one responsiable for avoiding a collision and yielding, not the leading driver. So while no driver can 'drive wherever they want' the leading driver is not the one who has to yield. It is also the full responsability of any driver rejoining the track to ensure that they do not colide will a driver already on the track.

Now I again re-state my point with regard to the KR incident, as KR did exactly the same to LH during the incident they had and in that situation you were quite clear that he was in the right, now that LH does pretty much the same thing it is wrong.

I don't know what you're trying to get out: you give all thse reasons as to why we're wrong, but you never give any as to why you're right ...

Making this personal is not a great idea, I'm more than happy to discuss any of these situation in detail and actually believe I have stated both sides of the case.

It's not the mistakes, it's the number of them. How many mistakes has Hamilton made this year? He ran into the back of Alonso in Bahrain, then did it to Raikkonen in Canada. He was done for skipping chicanes in France, and again in Belgium. He made a dud tyre choice in Italy, and then took both himself and Webber on an off-track excursion in te race. He locked up at turn one in Japan and got penalised for it, then got into trading blows with Massa. It doesn't matter what you think of the incidents, they were all counted as such by the Powers That Be. How many similar mistakes has Massa made this year?

Please tell me you are joking, I'm (and it would appear to be the most common view) of theh opinion that they have both made a lot of mistakes this year, I'm also quite open and candid about the ones LH has made. It would appear however that the blinkers are firmly on for you regarding Massa.

Go back and look at Silverstone again, the race in which Massa single-handedly forgot how to race a car in the wet.

Both Massa and Hamilton have made stunningly stupid mistakes this year, and both are capable of much more than they have shown, yet your view of this is quite clearly focusing on one driver and one driver alone, with this being a quite clear example of that....

Has he raised the ire of the track marshalls with his mistakes the way Hamilton has on at least four occasions? No. If anyone has lost out because of Massa's mistakes, it has been Massa and Massa alone. Hamilton, on the other hand, hit Alonso, hit Raikkonen, hit Webber, put himself in a position to be hit by Massa and forced Raikkonen off the road at least twice (once in Japan, once in Germany).

And if you're discounting Hamilton's tyre choice in Italy, then I'm discounting Massa's retirement in Malaysia as Ferrari said it was mechanical error, not a driver mistake.

......the part I highlighted is stunning. He put himself in a position to be hit by Massa!!!!!!! That alone undermines any claim of no bias you care to make, as much as it would do to me if I claimed that Raikkonen put himslef in a position to be hit by Hamilton in the pit-lane. The difference is I would not even consider seriously putting that claim down.



Regards

Scaff

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Both Massa and Hamilton have made stunningly stupid mistakes this year, and both are capable of much more than they have shown, yet your view of this is quite clearly focusing on one driver and one driver alone, with this being a quite clear example of that....

......the part I highlighted is stunning. He put himself in a position to be hit by Massa!!!!!!! That alone undermines any claim of no bias you care to make, as much as it would do to me if I claimed that Raikkonen put himslef in a position to be hit by Hamilton in the pit-lane. The difference is I would not even consider seriously putting that claim down.

It's 1am right now, so I'm only going to answer this bit for the time being, and only because I have to ask: when you pass someone on the highway, you do check to make sure you're past them before merging back into the lane, right? I mean, the rules of the road might say you have right-of-way, but does that mean you'll get it every last time? It's all well and good to say Hamilton had right-of-way in this incident, but this wouldn't be the first time in history the driver who should have yielded didn't do as he was supposed to. And while that makes Massa culpable, Hamilton was in a better position to avoid the accident. The corner combination in question is a right-left-right sequence. With the accident happening on the apex of the left, Hamilton could easily have moved over slightly and avoiding the contact, but still holding the racing line through the right-hander. And while he may not have been on the racing line for the next turn, his position combined with the fact that he was going faster than Massa would have meant the Brazilian would have yielded in time.

 

[Scaff]

It's 1am right now, so I'm only going to answer this bit for the time being, and only because I have to ask: when you pass someone on the highway, you do check to make sure you're past them before merging back into the lane, right? I mean, the rules of the road might say you have right-of-way, but does that mean you'll get it every last time? It's all well and good to say Hamilton had right-of-way in this incident, but this wouldn't be the first time in history the driver who should have yielded didn't do as he was supposed to. And while that makes Massa culpable, Hamilton was in a better position to avoid the accident. The corner combination in question is a right-left-right sequence. With the accident happening on the apex of the left, Hamilton could easily have moved over slightly and avoiding the contact, but still holding the racing line through the right-hander. And while he may not have been on the racing line for the next turn, his position combined with the fact that he was going faster than Massa would have meant the Brazilian would have yielded in time.

The rule of the road (as in the public road) have no bearing at all here. It is not the driver in fronts responsability at all to avoid the accident, and if a driver has left the track it is entirely there responsability to not hit a car already on the track.

The rear view mirrors on a Formula car moving at speed are practically usless and its a moot point in any case, the entire resonsability for avoiding that collision rested with the following driver.

Any attempt to blame Hamilton for 'getting in Massa's way' both flies in the face of the FIA's sporting regulation and common sense.

Regards

Scaff

 

[niky]

Has he raised the ire of the track marshalls with his mistakes the way Hamilton has on at least four occasions? No. If anyone has lost out because of Massa's mistakes, it has been Massa and Massa alone. Hamilton, on the other hand, hit Alonso, hit Raikkonen, hit Webber, put himself in a position to be hit by Massa and forced Raikkonen off the road at least twice (once in Japan, once in Germany).

^ That is the single funniest line I've heard all day. Almost as funny as saying that Kimi Raikonnen's stopping in front of Lewis in the pitlane to be rear-ended was intentional.

And if you're discounting Hamilton's tyre choice in Italy, then I'm discounting Massa's retirement in Malaysia as Ferrari said it was mechanical error, not a driver mistake.

Then I invoke Silverstone as three or four different boneheaded mistakes. Like Scaff says, it's like Massa completely forgot how to drive an F1 car in the wet.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Then I invoke Silverstone as three or four different boneheaded mistakes. Like Scaff says, it's like Massa completely forgot how to drive an F1 car in the wet.

In which case, I invoke Montreal as three or four boneheaded mistakes, even if it was one incident. Red meaning "stop" and green meaning "go" is somethng you learn from Play School.