2008 Fuji GP

[Tobias123]

Although I agree Ferrari-bias is a little over-used at times, there have been plenty of occasions that I think the FIA has definitely been dishing out penalties to affect the championship and to make it closer. A prime example being the completely un-necessary Bourdais penalty.

The sad thing is that this season is going to be remembered for the penalties and controversy more than the actual driving, and there has been some simply stunning driving this yeah. Some examples are Vettel's incredible Italy drive, Rosberg's Singapore performance(my drive of the year, personally) and Alonso's Fuji win. But all of that is swept under the rug because of all of the penalties.

 

[Ardius]

The sad thing is that this season is going to be remembered for the penalties and controversy more than the actual driving, and there has been some simply stunning driving this yeah. Some examples are Vettel's incredible Italy drive, Rosberg's Singapore performance(my drive of the year, personally) and Alonso's Fuji win. But all of that is swept under the rug because of all of the penalties.

Yeah, this season has been one of the best for a very long time if it wasn't for the penalties and controversey. Maybe a solution would be to get rid of Hamilton to stop it all?
Don't forget Glock's great drive to 2nd at Hungary, Kubica's first win at Canada and Hamilton's dominating win at Silverstone.

 

[Tobias123]

Yeah, this season has been one of the best for a very long time if it wasn't for the penalties and controversey. Maybe a solution would be to get rid of Hamilton to stop it all?
Don't forget Glock's great drive to 2nd at Hungary, Kubica's first win at Canada and Hamilton's dominating win at Silverstone.

Of course. But you have to admit, Rosberg's 2nd place in Singapore, after a safety car, stop and go penalty and then a safety car closing him down to right in front of Lewis Hamilton, is one of the best drives in a long time. And he did it in the dry, in a Williams.

EDIT: And besides, if you got rid of Hamilton now, the rest of it would be screwed up by James Allen moping about the lack of Lewis Hamilton, and no one likes to hear him whine. Him talking normally is annoying enough.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

Great! Do you want an even whiter F1 by taking out the first and only black driver out of it?

Seriously though, you can make up excuses for each and every incident throughout history where Ferrari was helped by a ruling on the track or off-track. But the pattern is there, and even if they won't say it out loud, F1 has a lot invested in Ferrari (to the point where they're synonimous with each other). It befits them to keep Ferrari happy. What I constantly see is that Ferrari rarely gets penalized, and when they do, it either rarely helps their competitors, or it's done unequally to what others get for the same infractions. Feel free to prove me wrong. You could make a catalog of these incidents where the damage to Ferrari is either minimized, neutralized, or non existant.

On another note: Can someone verify the starting position of pole at Fuji? I saw the start on youtube, and if I saw correctly, Hamilton started from pole to the left of the grid. Is that correct?

 

[Tobias123]

Great! Do you want an even whiter F1 by taking out the first and only black driver out of it?

Seriously though, you can make up excuses for each and every incident throughout history where Ferrari was helped by a ruling on the track or off-track. But the pattern is there, and even if they won't say it out loud, F1 has a lot invested in Ferrari (to the point where they're synonimous with each other). It befits them to keep Ferrari happy. What I constantly see is that Ferrari rarely gets penalized, and when they do, it either rarely helps their competitors, or it's done unequally to what others get for the same infractions. Feel free to prove me wrong. You could make a catalog of these incidents where the damage to Ferrari is either minimized, neutralized, or non existant.

On another note: Can someone verify the starting position of pole at Fuji? I saw the start on youtube, and if I saw correctly, Hamilton started from pole to the left of the grid. Is that correct?

I disagree with there being a strong Ferrari bias, but I will concede that it does make sense if there is. After all, I believe Ferrari is the only original Formula One team left, and if Ferrari somehow left Formula One pretty much the entire fanbase would be shocked as heck, even more than if Williams or McLaren left.

I do believe that McLaren is quite unpopular with the FIA though for some reason, which is depressing because I absolutely love McLaren(even though I strongly dislike Lewis Hamilton.) And I do believe that starting on pole from the left is correct in correct in Fuji, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

I asked about his starting position because I thought they had said pole position was supposed to start from the inside line of the first corner. If such is the case, Hamilton was at a disadvantage starting from pole, which was on the outside line. Isn't that what they said at Valencia, where Massa got pole and Hamilton second on the grid, but they switched the sides because originally 2nd had the inside?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

The sad thing is that this season is going to be remembered for the penalties and controversy more than the actual driving, and there has been some simply stunning driving this yeah. Some examples are Vettel's incredible Italy drive, Rosberg's Singapore performance(my drive of the year, personally) and Alonso's Fuji win. But all of that is swept under the rug because of all of the penalties.

You can't forget the bad driving. There were some good(bad?) highlights: Hamilton crashing into Kimi in the pits, Raikonnen setting his fast laps and then crashing before the end of the race, and Massa epically sucking at Silverstone.

 

[Tobias123]

I asked about his starting position because I thought they had said pole position was supposed to start from the inside line of the first corner. If such is the case, Hamilton was at a disadvantage starting from pole, which was on the outside line. Isn't that what they said at Valencia, where Massa got pole and Hamilton second on the grid, but they switched the sides because originally 2nd had the inside?

Yes I believe so, but I think starting from the left in Fuji would set you up better for the first corner...but I could be wrong, I'm not an F1 driver after all.

You can't forget the bad driving. There were some good(bad?) highlights: Hamilton crashing into Kimi in the pits, Raikonnen setting his fast laps and then crashing before the end of the race, and Massa epically sucking at Silverstone.

Yes, but every season has bad moments(though most are certainly not as awful as the Pit-lane accident in Montreal.) Every season has good moments too, but this has had more than most.

 

[niky]

The Valencia grid was changed because pole position was on the "dirty" line... which is weird, because the dirty line is usually the inside line.

And that's why pole was on the outside at Fuji. The outside line into a corner usually has more rubber laid down on it, and it's advantageous. Having Kimi start beside you and hungry to regain respect and the first seat at Ferrari next year? Disadvantageous.

I don't get all the hate that LH gets. Sure, he's an arrogant SOB when he's PO'd... but nowhere near as arrogant as Alonso... or as petty as Alonso was being all season. Don't get me wrong... I love the man's driving, and I'm happy that he's winning again (Alonso, that is), but when it comes to McLaren and wonder-boy Hamilton, the guy starts acting like a prom-queen reject.

Massa's a nice guy. But he still doesn't have enough composure under pressure to win it. Same problem Lewis has, actually. Bets are on for both taking each outher out in the next two races and Kubica winning the title... Go Kubica! (disclaimer... I'm not expressing a wish for them to crash... but given their histories, goof-ups under this much pressure is likely.)

The problem in F1 is not Lewis. It's the vindictiveness the FIA has against McLaren. A lot of WTF decisions have favored McLaren's rival, Ferrari over the past two seasons... Lewis's penalty a few races ago was just one in a long line of them (justified with a "rule clarification" afterwards... but by the letter of the rule AT THE TIME, Hamilton was in the right). I'm not saying all penalties were unfair. The previous penalty on Hamilton for off-track excursions was patently fair, and the penalty for this race... well... might be payback for the other times... and the FIA is starting to get serious about punters (finally) this season. But there has been a clear anti-McLaren bias in FIA decisions in the past three years... and it's bad for the sport.

 

[nissan tuner]

Anyone else think Hamilton or Kubica winning the title would be better for the sport? The way they've been acting this year, The FIA is going to catch ALOT of crap from the fans if massa wins IMO.

 

[Tobias123]

Anyone else think Hamilton or Kubica winning the title would be better for the sport? The way they've been acting this year, The FIA is going to catch ALOT of crap from the fans if massa wins IMO.

I don't know about that. It all depends on how the champion conducts themselves(the one thing I agree with Little Bernie about.) So whether Massa, Kubica, or Hamilton carries it home, F1 wins because they're all sociable and press-savvy, and will take the time to do things and talk to people, unlike Alonso and Raikkonen.

I think the only way people won't be upset is if Kubica wins it, because everyone loves him.

 

[Racer_LP]

If he went straight into lewis because he had no grip, how is that deliberate? If you have no grip you dont have that much of a choice where you are going.

Well, he turned his car off the track himself instead of doing the sensible thing and backing off. He clearly lost his place already and had no chance of defending it without touching.
I think even he knows that by cutting the corner that much he wouldn't have any grip and just go straight into Lewis, so that makes it deliberate.

It's not like he cut the corner because he lost control or because he couldn't make it anymore. He knew exactly what the was doing and what was going to happen.
It's becoming pretty obvious by the way he is driving at the moment that MS has become his best friend in the Ferrari pit box.

 

[niky]

I still can't call it. Massa is generally not that kind of driver, but who knows?

And yes, it'd be great if Kubica wins... He stands head and shoulders above the rest of the drivers, in my eyes.
















I mean, literally... the guy's over six feet tall, fer pity's sakes. It's amazing he actually fits in his car...

 

[mustang245]

Lol, and Alonso isn't arrogant?
Nah, I agree, Alonso has that lovable angry character about him. Hamilton is almost exactly the same as Alonso except for this, he doesn't have the raw outbursts and for some odd reason this detracts from him.

Hamilton is in no way the same as Alonso. Besides, as arrogant an ass as Lewis is, he still drives like a rookie as evidenced by the start at Fuji. I think the world may be coming around as to why the Spaniard's position at McLaren was so untenable. Without de le Rosa offering setup advice, Hamilton would be nowhere... Hamilton has much to learn, yet seems unwilling to.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Hamilton has much to learn, yet seems unwilling to.

Probably because he thinks he already knows it because he's fighting for the championship again.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

Probably because he thinks he already knows it because he's fighting for the championship again.

the thing is hes only fighting for it when hes out in front. when he actually has to FIGHT for it he seems to come belly up. he still has alot to learn i think he needs some time with some of the smaller teams to learn what its like to actually have to race to win not just show up in a well developed car and run out front of the mid pack.

 

[Famine]

I'm angry.

It's getting very tedious having to listen to all these accusations floating around of FIA biasedness towards Ferrari. It seems that those who are worried that their hero Hamilton may not win the title feel the need to begin the excuses, just so that they have a back-up should Massa come out on top.

This whole 'disgrace to the sport thing' is only exasserbated by the hype surrounding it - people seem to be making mountains out of molehills.

PSN: FerrariRoss

Moving on...

Let's face it, there's no denying that Lewis was in the wrong at turn 1 in Fuji, and his claims that his move wasn't dangerous are ridiculous because the result was a chain reaction where multiple cars were forced wide, and Hamilton had to be punished, it was the only fair option.

If a driver is to be punished for where other cars go because he's screwed up his braking, almost all turn 1s in the history of grands prix should have had penalties.

What about the other drivers who caused other cars to take avoiding action through that corner? What about the driver who actually contacted David Coulthard's car, causing him to spear off into the barriers? Where were their punishments? Is it not dangerous to drive into Coulthard because he's not challenging for a title?

While I don't disagree that Hamilton's turn 1 was... more than ambitious, handing out a punishment for a turn 1 fail is pretty much unprecedented, and not handing it out to any other driver - including the one who actually caused an actual accident - is wholly inconsistent. Which is pretty much the story of penalties in the last couple of seasons.

Massa also fully deserved his punishment, his move was possibly one of the most controversial of the season, and a dire mistake.

Again, I don't disagree, but...

Which is a bigger and more dangerous mistake - trying too hard and failing to turn the car in while at the front and not contacting anyone, or cutting a chicane (all four wheels were beyond the white line) and colliding with another driver?

The Fuji stewards decided that driving into someone was variously worth a drive-through (Massa), no penalty at all (whomever it was that broke Coulthard's rear suspension) and, bizarrely, the other driver being given a 25s race penalty (Massa). They also decided that Massa's transgression of cutting a corner and driving into someone was the equal of Hamilton's braking fail in turn 1. Consistent in their inconsistency as usual.

Those people who think they have the right to sit there and dish out accusations that Formula 1 is fixed, can consider that the attitude of themselves and even the drivers are far more damaging to the sport than any penalties handed out.

It's not like there's not enough evidence.

McLaren got their Constructor's points stripped from them in Ferrari's 60th Anniversary year just when it looked like they could take the title away from them, after being found guilty of having an employee who used to work for Ferrari (no evidence was ever found that the McLaren team had Ferrari vehicle specs), handing the title to Ferrari. Renault were found guilty of the exact same breach of code, having the past 2 seasons' McLaren car specs in their entirety on their mainframe, but given no punishment at all.

McLaren driver given unprecedented penalty for breach of a code which wasn't written until after the incident occurred, handing the race to Ferrari.

McLaren driver given unprecedented penalty for not crashing into anyone at turn 1 of a race, ultimately denying him points in a championship challenge with... Ferrari.

STR driver given unprecedented penalty for being driven into by a Ferrari, handing additional championship points to Ferrari.

And that's without having to delve into the whole Shanghai conspiracy theory. Which we won't mention.


F1 needs a kick in the arse. They're handing out ridiculous penalties and leaving themselves open to exactly this kind of criticism and, as Brundle pointed out on ITV F1, generating a nanny-state where drivers are afraid to do anything in case they get penalties or, worse, retroactive penalties. What's the point in aggressive, exciting driving when you'll get penalised for locking up and not hitting anyone? What's the point in anything if the car you're racing against can just drive into you and you get punished (perhaps the stewards have been playing too much GT5: Prologue )?

Of the penalties handed out - and not handed out (Massa/Webber) - last weekend, the only one with any merit was Massa's Dunlopfail, and even that was little more than a racing incident. The stewards need to butt out and let the drivers (or pit crews at least) determine who wins races.

 

[TheCracker]

the thing is hes only fighting for it when hes out in front. when he actually has to FIGHT for it he seems to come belly up. he still has alot to learn i think he needs some time with some of the smaller teams to learn what its like to actually have to race to win not just show up in a well developed car and run out front of the mid pack.

The only lesson any F1 driver can learn from running in a smaller team is frustration. These guys haven't just been plucked off the street, they've spent probably 2/3rds of their lives perfecting their race-crafts. Hamilton has already proven in his time in GP2 that he's more than capable in coming through the field from the back of the grid.

 

[Soundtrack]

The only lesson any F1 driver can learn from running in a smaller team is frustration.

I wonder how Alonso is considering his latest 2 wins with Renault this year in regard of the others. I’m pretty sure they have a special taste for him, and he may eventually, at the time of final making-up, consider them as the best he ever had. His behavior this year has lead me to new considerations about him, especially compared to the “spoiled-child” attitude at McLaren last year. Should he haven’t learn anything in 2008, he has obviously gained something that top teams couldn’t provide him. My 2 cents, of course

 

[Scaff]

Hamilton is in no way the same as Alonso.

Your right, Hamilton has not said he will go out of his way to help a driver from another team win the championship.

They are both arrogant, but one of them is at least aware of loyalty to the team they are driving for.

Besides, as arrogant an ass as Lewis is, he still drives like a rookie as evidenced by the start at Fuji.

Have you forgotten Alonso's wonderful 'I'm just going to drive right into the side of you' moment from Monaco so quickly?

If he drove like a rookie the entire time, then the car he was in would not make a blind bit of difference. I think the fact that he is still top of the drivers points kind of flies in the face of daft comments like that.

I think the world may be coming around as to why the Spaniard's position at McLaren was so untenable.

Yes the Spaniard throws a sulk when he can't get his own way in a team. Alonso went to McLaren knowning full well they have never been a team to favour a singfle driver to the total exclusion of the other, to then sulk about it is rediculous. Yet that is exactly what he has done. It also raises the question of his behaviour at Renault, you can't blame that on Hamilton.

Without de le Rosa offering setup advice, Hamilton would be nowhere... Hamilton has much to learn, yet seems unwilling to.

That can be applied to any driver, do you honestly think that Massa would be the driver he is without the input and help of MS?



Scaff

 

[Alex.]

I think Lewis will look back on his career and wonder, if he had ever spent time at a back end of midfield team, would he have been more successful?

 

[TheCracker]

I think Lewis will look back on his career and wonder, if he had ever spent time at a back end of midfield team, would he have been more successful?

Like i said in the post above, what does any driver have learn from driving in a midfield team?

 

[Famine]

That they're ready to retire?

 

[Alex.]

How to be in the shoes of someone who isn't in the fastest car, who will get reliability issues, who will get lapped and blue flagged, and the whole experience of fighting for points first before fighting for championships later in the career.

Sutil, Nakajima, Bourdais, Piquet have all made mistakes this season, when Hamilton makes a mistake he is slaughtered because hes in a better car, and should be doing his job perfectly. when infact he's had a similar amount of experience.

Ok so I wandered off a bit, but I'm just saying Hamilton doesnt know any other than fighting at the front off the grid for the majority of races, maybe if he'd spent a season in the midfield e.g. Massa, Raikkonen, Alonso, Kovalainen, and pretty much every other driver. I can't really recall anyone who was drafted straight into a top team and been succesful.

Put Vettel and Hamilton in a midfield car, I think I know who'd do the better job. INfact, if Vettel was drafted straight to Ferrari now, I believe he'd finish above Lewis in the WDC next season.

 

[TheCracker]

How to be in the shoes of someone who isn't in the fastest car, who will get reliability issues, who will get lapped and blue flagged, and the whole experience of fighting for points first before fighting for championships later in the career.

Sutil, Nakajima, Bourdais, Piquet have all made mistakes this season, when Hamilton makes a mistake he is slaughtered because hes in a better car, when infact he's had a similar amount of experience.

I still don't see how that will help them to be a better driver. To put it simply:

Driving for a top team > Driving for an average team

I can see what you are saying about making mistakes in and out of the spot light. But i still every driver would prefer their career to be more along the lines of Hamiltons then Piquets without question. If you are making mistakes but still winning races and fighting for championships then you are still bringing value to your team and it's sponsors. If you are making mistakes but even struggling to score points then what value do you have? - Your position in that team comes under serious question and you could find yourself on the dole come the following season (Nascar, IRL or the like )

Put Vettel and Hamilton in a midfield car, I think I know who'd do the better job. INfact, if Vettel was drafted straight to Ferrari now, I believe he'd finish above Lewis in the WDC next season.

You can't possibly say that would be true, there have been so many drivers who have shown great promise in lower teams that couldn't manage to quite live up to that when they make it into a prime seat. when Hamilton and Vettel competed against each other in the 2005 Formula Three Euroseries Hamilton absolutely dominated the series.

 

[Scaff]

I think Lewis will look back on his career and wonder, if he had ever spent time at a back end of midfield team, would he have been more successful?

At the very point he is at today, no I seriously doubt he will think that. Second in the drivers championship in his rookie season and leading the drivers championship with two races to go in his second season.

Somehow I seriously doubt he is going to regret that at all, and I think most of the other drivers in the midfield teams would be quite happy to swap places with him.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Sureboss]

Have you forgotten Alonso's wonderful 'I'm just going to drive right into the side of you' moment from Monaco so quickly?

If he drove like a rookie the entire time, then the car he was in would not make a blind bit of difference. I think the fact that he is still top of the drivers points kind of flies in the face of daft comments like that.

Scaff

It is a bemusing comment, he drives like a rookie yet he has driven some incredible races and could well win the title in his second season and should have won it in his first season. If that's a rookie then F1 must have some insane world-class drivers

 

[Scaff]

It is a bemusing comment, he drives like a rookie yet he has driven some incredible races and could well win the title in his second season and should have won it in his first season. If that's a rookie then F1 must have some insane world-class drivers

He doesn't drive like a rookie at all, he makes mistakes like a rookie, which is a totally different thing.

When Hamilton is driving to his level of ability only a few other drivers on the track can match his pace, however he is prone to make mistakes that experience may remove (but not always hence my comment about Alonso).


Regards

Scaff

 

[darkfinal]

I don't get all the hate that LH gets. Sure, he's an arrogant SOB when he's PO'd... but nowhere near as arrogant as Alonso... or as petty as Alonso was being all season. Don't get me wrong... I love the man's driving, and I'm happy that he's winning again (Alonso, that is), but when it comes to McLaren and wonder-boy Hamilton, the guy starts acting like a prom-queen reject.

I can't remember Alonso being an arrogant prick until he joined McLaren and Hamilton. And he's being quite nice back in Renault.

Perhaps he was complaining with a reason? If Lewis is that dirty during the race (Locking brakes and pestering Alonso, outlapped, during the last lap instead of holding back as a sign of respect, only to cross the line ahead of him? That wasn't mature.), I don't want to imagine how hard would it be to be his teammate, at his 'daddy's' team, and expecting to get the treatment you deserve after winning the two last championships in a row, not the protected-driver's-assistant role Kovalainen has pulled out, and Alonso received during the second half of the season.

Anyway, back to the race, I'm glad I was wrong when I thought Alonso would never get a win again, and he's got two. Curiously, if the season had started six races ago, he would be leading it.

 

[TheCracker]

Locking brakes and pestering Alonso, outlapped, during the last lap instead of holding back as a sign of respect, only to cross the line ahead of him? That wasn't mature.

I don't think it had anything to do with respect. I doubt it actually had anything to do with the drivers either. McLaren will have told Hamilton to try and get back past Alonso on the final lap so he could gather up any points thrown away by other drivers potentially retiring or crashing on that lap (had he finished a lap down behind Alonso he would'nt be able to take advantage of that situation). Renault will have no doubt told Alonso that Hamilton will be trying to get back past and to let him through.