2008 Grand Prix Of Germany - Hockenheim Returns -

[Alex.]

Grand Prix Of Germany 2008


The forthcoming German Grand Prix, round 10 of the 2008 FIA Formula One World Championship, will take place at Hockenheim, which last featured on the calendar in 2006. Here, the drivers and some prominent team members discuss their prospects for the forthcoming race..

Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren
2006 Qualifying - NA, 2006 Race - NA
“Our car’s real strengths are in high-speed corners and under braking. Hockenheim is more of a technical, medium-speed circuit so I wouldn’t expect us to have any particular advantage - but the car does feel very good here. It has a similar downforce level to Magny-Cours, where we weren’t really able to show our true potential, so it will be interesting to see where we sit in comparison to our rivals.

Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber
2006 Qualifying - 16th, 2006 Race - DNF
"I'm really looking forward to my home grand prix. Hockenheim is a very special race for the whole team, while a lot of Swiss fans have traditionally made the trip across the border to give their support. I personally have a lot of good memories of the Hockenheimring, especially the old circuit with its long straights through the forest. Those sections were really unmistakeable, but the new track is, of course, significantly safer and better for the spectators - and I appreciate it for those reasons. Plus, a good overtaking opportunity has been created in the Parabolika. I've driven at Hockenheim in Formula Ford, Formula 3, Formula 3000 and Formula One, and can't wait for this Grand Prix."

Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber
2006 Qualifying - NA, 2006 Race - NA
"In 2006 I had the opportunity to drive at Hockenheim in free practice on Friday, but this will be my first Formula One Grand Prix there - although I did race at the circuit in F3. We weren't there last year so I think it will be a very special weekend for our team and especially for BMW and all the BMW fans. We always try our best. It is the kind of track with different kinds of corners, although not really high-speed corners. The only one that is quite quick is when you enter the stadium, where there is always a special atmosphere. I know corner one is pretty quick but not really a long corner. There are some quite short corners with only one line you can take through them.


It's a tough call here to predict the dominant team.


All's I'm concerned about is a way to watch the race in california, do they show it on speed or something?












​

 

[wrcsti]

I think FOX shows the races now but I am not 100% sure.

 

[Studentdriver]

Germany is FOX's last race this year. It will be on tape delay, but I'm not sure what time on the West Coast.

 

[TS]

Finally, the last race on Fox. No pre-race & shortened podium ceremony + press conference = ftl.

 

[Bleached]

Well the pre-race show will be on SPEED, and the race is on FOX. Probably still no podium or press conference.

 

[Alex.]

Ok cheers, and is that early in the morning?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Ok cheers, and is that early in the morning?

It's on at noon here, but I'm in the Central time zone. You could probably check the site.

 

[Motominded]

Yeah, crap coverage on Fox. I remember years back the didin't even have the Speedtv crew doing the announcing which made it that much worse.

Only upside for me is that im on vacation in Isreal so i'll watch it on one of their chaneels, have yet to figure which one. Anyways, enjoy the crap coverage U.S,A. people

 

[Metar]

Another post-test race, and the top and midfield will be impossible to predict. As usual, however, there's a batch of updates to the cars:

McLaren joined Trend One of the season and added a sharkfin, or rather a sharpfin, to their car:

Toyota quickly followed suit with their own take on the Sharkfin (in their case, almost identical to the Redbull design):

While Honda joined Trend Two of the season and added a connecting sidepod-shield, but went a step further, connecting it to the bargeboard via a unique aerofoil (winglet), positioned to enhance the effect of the bargeboard and increase the vortices surrounding the underbody:

BMW Sauber, meanwhile, joined the third trend we've seen this season (after Ferrari and McLaren) and added a cockpit wing similar to the classic Renault design:

I really wanted to go, but the prices and all that... maybe next year.

Only upside for me is that im on vacation in Isreal so i'll watch it on one of their chaneels, have yet to figure which one.

Upside.

Welcome to Israel, the place where Michael Schumacher is as known as your next-door Falafel guy. A common reply to my question of "Are you watching the F1 race today?" is "Formula What?"

Real piece of commentary from last year's qualifying at Turkey: "Here's a Renault... no, wait, that's a BMW Sauber. I think it's Kubica's." They're so obviously football commentators who don't care the slightest bit, they could manage to make Monaco dull. At least EuroSport shows MotoGP, and ESPN shows NASCAR - sometimes I think I'm the only one watching.

I'll check the schedule, if you're really lucky, Channel 5 (public sports channel) is airing it for free. If you're slightly unluckier, then 5 are too busy airing a dull juniors football game, and in that case Channel 5+, a pay-channel, will broadcast it. If even unluckier, they'll completely ignore F1 this weekend. It's a hit-miss thing with them. If your hotel (or whatever) has cables, you can watch it on the German RTL channel though - would be easier to understand than Hebrew, too. I'll PM you the details once I know for sure who shows what.

 

[Robin]

For some reason I think it looks horrid on the Mclaren, some paint schemes fit much better with the fin like Red Bull (yeah I know its all about performance!)...

As for the Honda its now going to look crazy complicated with that elephant wing thing on the nose... plus why change the car after Rubens finally pulls a podium!

Oh well I guess the aero engineers are having some fun and letting loose before next season when all the cars go back to looking like 97 F1 cars...

Robin

 

[Alex.]

They'l look alot different. There will be no winglets, yet the body's will be alot more aerodynamically efficient, not just like flat edges for sidepods etc.

 

[Metar]

For some reason I think it looks horrid on the Mclaren, some paint schemes fit much better with the fin like Red Bull (yeah I know its all about performance!)...

IMO, the STR one looks best - it's the only car designed with this in mind. The Redbull doesn't look half-bad, too, and the Renault's completely-white bits are relatively inoffensive - but the McLaren... No. On a Ferrari, in red, with the barcodes, however, I might like that.

As for the Honda its now going to look crazy complicated with that elephant wing thing on the nose... plus why change the car after Rubens finally pulls a podium!

Connecting the sidepod-shields is a huge boost (on the scale of 3-4 tenths, apparently) and especially important since it's with barely any drawbacks. It also improves aerodynamic efficiency, which is where Honda is lacking badly.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Welcome to Israel, the place where Michael Schumacher is as known as your next-door Falafel guy. A common reply to my question of "Are you watching the F1 race today?" is "Formula What?"

And you didn't even say Formula!

 

[JohnBM01]

So Hockenheim is next...

The track is much safer than with the past configuration. Having said this, this course is basically a generic track with these changes. The only reminder of the past Hockenheim here is with the very long (I guess you can call it this) straightaway out of Turns 2 and 3. The old Hockenheim was that high-speed blast into the forest. That engine better hold up and you'd better be ready to take chances. Chicanes were added to slow the cars down after speedfreaking all the way down the track. This was one of the tracks I've thought had cancer (Tilke screwing up a track). Like the new changes or not, this is still Hockenheim.

Speed is still key at Hockenheim even if the track has been dumbed down tremendously. Playing this track in PC and computer games, Turn 1 has to be taken a bit like it was Eau Rouge in which braking too hard ends up getting you going backwards in the running order. Turn 2 is disasterous to overshoot. A good line through Turn 2 will set you up for Turn 3 which sets you up for the fastest part of the track. Don't even think about making dumb moves like riding somebody off the course or in making leading drivers to put the right-side tires off the road. You'd better slow her down as best as you can heading into that wicked hairpin. That hairpin has to be about a 25 degree angle. The rest of the course favors quick entry, but you'd better be ready to tame some of the sharp and slow corners that await you in both sections leading to the Finish Line. A rainy/wet Hockenheim is really going to test the mettle of racers navigating this circuit.

I had a wild guess in picking Lewis Hamilton to win at Silverstone. So I'm thinking... Felipe Maasa for this race. I have Mr. Kubica as a dark horse. I'm also envisioning the podium as having at least one German in the Top 3.

 

[Metar]

Eau Rouge? Downforce? Braking?

 

[Bram Turismo]

I hate sharkfins, I hope we'll never, ever see them back after this year.

 

[Muzaffar]

I hate sharkfins, I hope we'll never, ever see them back after this year.

Maybe it will be banned by next year!
But to be honest, Hockenheim has been very boring since the new Tlike layout was introduced. No more are we gonna see F1 cars past through the forest in excess speed of 300kp/h. But anyways, likely favorites would be Ferrari again, with both McLaren and BMW playing catch up again. If it is wet, then it is likely going to be pretty much the same as Silverstone. None the less, it is the start of the 2nd half of the season and should be the turning point for most of the team.

As for the aero updates, I think McLaren have an awful idea of doing the sharkfin. Doesn't look good on their car, and really is just adding weight to their already aero-efficient car. 👎 As for the Honda, the connecting sidepod-shield hopefully does improve their performance, as they are really gonna need it for the coming races. Surprisingly Honda has improved more over the last few races than any other midfield running team, including Renault. 👍

 

[Metar]

As for the aero updates, I think McLaren have an awful idea of doing the sharkfin. Doesn't look good on their car, and really is just adding weight to their already aero-efficient car. 👎 As for the Honda, the connecting sidepod-shield hopefully does improve their performance, as they are really gonna need it for the coming races. Surprisingly Honda has improved more over the last few races than any other midfield running team, including Renault. 👍

O RLY? First off, something the size of a sharkfin doesn't weigh more than 10kg (EDIT: Looking back at the pictures, it has to be less considering the size of McLaren's previous cover) - it's thin carbon fiber, not thick steel, and in a car like the McLaren, which is already far below the minimum weight, you just remove a piece of ballast and you're back at the minimum. Second, their car is, perhaps, the most aero-efficient car on the grid - but fact is that the Ferraris have been faster on quite a few occasions: So, if you want to catch up, you can either improve areas you lack in (McLaren lack mechanical grip this year), or perfect the areas you already excel in. A sharkfin is nearly the perfect part - it decreases drag, improves rear-wing efficiency, and has virtually zero drawbacks: a slight weight-increase (easily made up in aero-gains anyway), and the visual eyesore that it produces (and that doesn't matter to the engineer).

Also, what are you basing Honda's progress on? They've introduced some new parts, that's true, but they haven't really moved up quite that much. In fact, checking their qualifying-performances, they've stayed exactly where they started throughout the season:

Australia: both Hondas made Q2, 1.1s and 1.2s behind fastest of the session.
Turkish GP: both Hondas made Q2, 1s and 1.1s behind fastest of the session.
Monaco (which favours the Honda): 1s and 1.4s behind fastest of the session.
Silverstone: Both Hondas out in Q1, 1.5s and 1.6s behind fastest of the session - and 1.9s and 2s behind fastest in Q2.

That's not progress, that's keeping up. The podium was just lucky, a strategic call of picking the right tyres at the right time. Teams that made progress are Renault, who struggled to reach Q3 at the start of the season, but can now do it with ease, and Red Bull, who not only improved their pace but also their notorious reliability.

 

[PeterJB]

For some reason I think it looks horrid on the Mclaren, some paint schemes fit much better with the fin like Red Bull (yeah I know its all about performance!)...

It looks quite cool with the Shark-Fin, but what does it do?

 

[Ardius]

It looks quite cool with the Shark-Fin, but what does it do?

The usual, more air flow direction, helps the car run more smoothly through the air and directs it to components that either help engine cooling or downforce.

 

[Metar]

It looks quite cool with the Shark-Fin, but what does it do?

The shape of a regular engine-cover produces a lot of turbulence due to the shape it has - air from both sides moves in the same direction and then "collides", creating turbulent airflow and therefore compromising the rear wing's efficiency. A sharkfin, by leading all the way to the rear wing, essentially keeps the air split while "straightening it out", then merging the two streams linearly just before the wing: This allows the air to flow smoothly and cleanly onto the rear wing. The smooth air creates less drag and more downforce on the rear wing than the turbulent airflow.

At the same time, it also acts to straighten the car out under jaw. This function is especially important this year, as with the banning of traction-control, cars slip far more common - and I'm not talking about full spins, where no aero-device can save the car. It acts like a sail, slightly increasing drag under jaw to push the car back into it's current trajectory. Because of this, the sharkfin actually ends before the wing - not only do regulations enforce that, but the "missing bit" is required so the other half of the wing isn't starved of airflow: Image a strong crosswind at a 45deg angle. In that scenario, one half of the wing would get more airflow than usual, but the other would get much less. Hence the "missing bit", to allow air onto the part of the wing which is in the shadow.

 

[Muzaffar]

O RLY? First off, something the size of a sharkfin doesn't weigh more than 10kg (EDIT: Looking back at the pictures, it has to be less considering the size of McLaren's previous cover) - it's thin carbon fiber, not thick steel, and in a car like the McLaren, which is already far below the minimum weight, you just remove a piece of ballast and you're back at the minimum. Second, their car is, perhaps, the most aero-efficient car on the grid - but fact is that the Ferraris have been faster on quite a few occasions: So, if you want to catch up, you can either improve areas you lack in (McLaren lack mechanical grip this year), or perfect the areas you already excel in. A sharkfin is nearly the perfect part - it decreases drag, improves rear-wing efficiency, and has virtually zero drawbacks: a slight weight-increase (easily made up in aero-gains anyway), and the visual eyesore that it produces (and that doesn't matter to the engineer).

Okay fine. But if it was such a good aero part, wouldn't all the teams in the grid use it by now? Yes, it does benefit the car a little and have better aerodynamic but like you said, McLaren are suffering from a lack mechanical grip so is this really gonna help them? Yes, but only at tracks which suits their car perfectly. (and also a bit of luck) But overall, Ferrari is still better than McLaren.

Also, what are you basing Honda's progress on? They've introduced some new parts, that's true, but they haven't really moved up quite that much. In fact, checking their qualifying-performances, they've stayed exactly where they started throughout the season:

Australia: both Hondas made Q2, 1.1s and 1.2s behind fastest of the session.
Turkish GP: both Hondas made Q2, 1s and 1.1s behind fastest of the session.
Monaco (which favours the Honda): 1s and 1.4s behind fastest of the session.
Silverstone: Both Hondas out in Q1, 1.5s and 1.6s behind fastest of the session - and 1.9s and 2s behind fastest in Q2.

That's not progress, that's keeping up. The podium was just lucky, a strategic call of picking the right tyres at the right time. Teams that made progress are Renault, who struggled to reach Q3 at the start of the season, but can now do it with ease, and Red Bull, who not only improved their pace but also their notorious reliability.

Look, if you compare Renault and Honda in the constructors standing they are pretty much near the same gap. Renault at 7th with 15 points and Honda at 8th with 14 points. Also the fact that Honda made a big improvemnt over their horrible season last year, where Renault starts the year in 3rd with pretty much the same car. Now don't tell me Honda haven't improve since then, even when they do look slow they manage to pull a surprise along the way. Honda also has less retirement this year (with 5) compared to Renault (with 8) Also, Renault is only better because Alonso is there to help the team and to make the car "look" faster than it really is. On the other hand, Honda had Ross Brawn in their team and manage to turn the teams fortune around. Yes, Honda has been outqualified by Renault at times, but qualifying doesn't really mean much when you run light and have to pit early and pretty much lose more time in the process.

But to be honest, if your saying Honda hasn't progressed the most then its pretty much your opinion. I don't really have to change your mind.....

 

[Metar]

Musa, I like to separate fact from fans. I'm a fan of Rubens and the Honda team, but facts are clear on this matter.

Okay fine. But if it was such a good aero part, wouldn't all the teams in the grid use it by now? Yes, it does benefit the car a little and have better aerodynamic but like you said, McLaren are suffering from a lack mechanical grip so is this really gonna help them? Yes, but only at tracks which suits their car perfectly. (and also a bit of luck) But overall, Ferrari is still better than McLaren.

Fact is, most teams now either have it (Red Bull, Renault, Toro Rosso, Force India, Toyota, and McLaren), or applied some of it's concepts (Ferrari, BMW and Williams have longer engine-covers now, that are essentially a smaller sharkfin - and not as effective). Yes, it is a proven concept - and you mustn't forget that even though F1 is a very fast-evolving field, it still takes a while to work out a part that works with the whole car: RBR/STR got a head-start, and it took others quite a while to come up with their own parts. Sometimes, a part that gains in one field doesn't work with another part - see case of McLaren's Viking Horns, which were removed when a new generation of rear wings was developed that didn't need them, or Michelin's mysterious "Alpha-tyre" - a tyre than gained over a second per lap in terms of grip, but interfered with the aerodynamic so much that it cost them a second or two in return.

According to your logic, is seems, no team is allowed to introduce a part unless it makes them a front-runner or improves the area they lack most in. McLaren have introduced the six-panel wing, organic sidepods and Renault-style rear wings in an effort to close that gap. The fact that Ferrari has been progressing doesn't relate to it at all. McLaren lack mechanical grip, but that doesn't mean they can't improve aero-efficiency. The part will help them everywhere, whenever Lewis and Heikki deem it faster than without it - not only where they're already fast. As it is, they're not that far ahead of Ferrari in that department, either, as Ferrari's perfected flexing parts and aerodynamic balance are almost as good as the McLarens.

Look, if you compare Renault and Honda in the constructors standing they are pretty much near the same gap. Renault at 7th with 15 points and Honda at 8th with 14 points. Also the fact that Honda made a big improvemnt over their horrible season last year, where Renault starts the year in 3rd with pretty much the same car. Now don't tell me Honda haven't improve since then, even when they do look slow they manage to pull a surprise along the way. Honda also has less retirement this year (with 5) compared to Renault (with 8) Also, Renault is only better because Alonso is there to help the team and to make the car "look" faster than it really is. On the other hand, Honda had Ross Brawn in their team and manage to turn the teams fortune around. Yes, Honda has been outqualified by Renault at times, but qualifying doesn't really mean much when you run light and have to pit early and pretty much lose more time in the process.

I thought our point was an improvement over the season? Last year's uber-terrible Honda doesn't have anything to do with this year's slightly-less terrible one. Renault ended last season 4th fastest, because McLaren's disqualification from the constructor's table didn't make them any slower, or Renault any faster. Honda started with a fresh design, and Renault started the year with a brand-new radical design unlike any other. Both struggled in the early season - note that at times, Alonso qualified just a place or two ahead of the Hondas. Now, he sets Q3 times easily.

As for the low points difference, have you considered that 6 of Honda's points are pure coincidence? As I said, the podium isn't a sign of upwards progress, as the Hondas were running far out of the points when they decided to switch to Full Wets - exactly where their pace suggested they would be. Webber, in a car as fast as the Renault, just flew past them. Looking slow but pulling surprises is not a sign of upwards progress - it's a sign of the right decision, or the right dosage of luck, at the right moment.

Honda has five retirements, but when you consider that six of the eight Renault retirements are Piquet's, and only one is a driver-error by Alonso. If Piquet was a halfway-decent driver, Renault would equal to Honda on the retirement-front. Alonso doesn't make the car seem any faster than it is - he just pushes it to the limit, much like Kimi, Lewis and the others are doing in their respective cars. You could argue that the Ferrari is 4 tenths slower than it is, "because with Piquet driving, it would be slower".

And as for qualifying, Q2 qualifying is the only measurement we have of true, raw pace. A race is affected by strategies, safety-cars, misfortunes and errors, but qualifying is one lap, usually without traffic, and usually one of the three-four laps is trouble-free. In Q1, some top-cars don't push quite as hard. In Q3, they're heavily-fueled. In Q2, they're all on fumes, and it's a matter of personal honor and glory to have set the fastest time. Honda barely eeked into Q3 once or twice. The updated (post-Barca) Renault easily sets a top-10 time, sometimes even top-5. You can argue that it's stupid of Alonso's strategists to send him out that light, and I agree - but that doesn't mean the car is any slower than the Hondas in qualifying, because when the others are light, the Renault is still faster, and the Honda is still a dog. And when you pit from 3rd and end up 10th, you're still ahead of the usual 12th-and-lower position of the Honda.


Also, if anyone wants their minds to implode, here's a bit of a difficult read.

 

[Pupik]

Well the pre-race show will be on SPEED, and the race is on FOX. Probably still no podium or press conference.

Finally, the last race on Fox. No pre-race & shortened podium ceremony + press conference = ftl.

Germany is FOX's last race this year. It will be on tape delay, but I'm not sure what time on the West Coast.

Does anyone have an East Coast time for the Fox broadcast...I've searched on Fox's sports and local web sites, and nobody has any listing for (anything) next Sunday.

 

[Studentdriver]

Well, if it's on at noon for Central Time, I should guess 1 PM for Eastern Time. France was at 1, but I was away for Britain, so I'm not 100% sure...perhaps only about 99.5% sure.

 

[Pupik]

Thanks...

 

[TS]

Does anyone have an East Coast time for the Fox broadcast...I've searched on Fox's sports and local web sites, and nobody has any listing for (anything) next Sunday.

Pre-race show is on Speed at 12:30pm eastern, then the race is at 1pm eastern on Fox.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

McLaren aren't going to run the anvil in Hockenheim. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69149

Apparently they're not dropping the idea, they're just not sure that it works for them.

 

[TheCracker]

They'l look alot different. There will be no winglets, yet the body's will be alot more aerodynamically efficient, not just like flat edges for sidepods etc.

I've noticed in the past few issues of Autosport that there's a huge increase in Aerodynamicists jobs been advertised by the F1 teams. They are all obviously throwing a lot of resources at next seasons regulations.

 

[Metar]

And they're spending an equal amount trying to keep it secret - not a single sketch, idea or specific detail was released by any team, only hazy opinions. Patrick Head mentioned "slick-looking cars, but ugly front wings", others were even more vague - a Ferrari engineer complained that "they look like toys", mentioning similarities to F3 cars as far as the rear is concerned.