2009 Grand Prix de Monaco

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The problem with Schumacher was that his teammates in the Ferrari years were contractually obliged not to finish in front of him unless Todt or Brawn said they could. Indeed at no point in his career did Schumacher have a world class teammate with equal status in the team.

Each season including the Benetton seasons Schumacher not only had his own telemetry readouts to study but he also got to look at his teammates as well. Naturally his teammates never got to see his readouts.

That's why even though there can be no argument about the fact that Schumacher was a world class driver, he can never be classed amongst the true greats of the sport.
 
The problem with Schumacher was that his teammates in the Ferrari years were contractually obliged not to finish in front of him unless Todt or Brawn said they could. Indeed at no point in his career did Schumacher have a world class teammate with equal status in the team.

Todt only ;) If Brawn really had a hand in those decisions, would Rubens still be racing? I think not.
That or Rubens is the most retarded person on the planet.

I stick to my argument that some drivers just stand out a little bit more for whatever reason, not that any is "the best" but some are just better than others at certain things and excel.
Schumacher had his talents, just as Button has his.
 
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The problem with Schumacher was that his teammates in the Ferrari years were contractually obliged not to finish in front of him unless Todt or Brawn said they could. Indeed at no point in his career did Schumacher have a world class teammate with equal status in the team.

Each season including the Benetton seasons Schumacher not only had his own telemetry readouts to study but he also got to look at his teammates as well. Naturally his teammates never got to see his readouts.

That's why even though there can be no argument about the fact that Schumacher was a world class driver, he can never be classed amongst the true greats of the sport.
What do you think makes that statement, unique to Schumacher?
 
Williams temporarily suspended from FOTA

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/5/9412.html

Williams have been temporarily suspended from the Formula One Teams Association (FOTA). It follows Monday’s confirmation that Williams have lodged a formal entry for next year’s championship, despite the ongoing dispute between the teams and the FIA over the 2010 regulations.

“FOTA’s decision, although regrettable, is understandable,” said team principal Frank Williams after the news emerged from a meeting of team bosses in London on Wednesday. “However, as a racing team and a company whose only business is Formula One, with obligations to our partners and our employees, submitting our entry to next year’s championship was unquestionable.

"In addition, we are legally obliged under our contract with FOM and the FIA to participate in the world championship until the end of 2012.”

Teams have until this Friday (May 29) to submit their entries for 2010, but several have suggested they will not do so unless the FIA modifies plans to introduce an optional £40 million budget cap in exchange for more technical freedom.

During last weekend’s Monaco Grand Prix all ten teams wrote to the FIA, requesting that the existing 2009 technical rules be retained for next season to allow more time for the future framing of the Formula One regulations to be considered.
 
All eyes now are on Turkey where we will see ferrari put in their first win of the season, i hope, Massa for the win!!! and an optimistic BMW in last place.
 
Tell that to Ross Brawn - who was doing the comparison.

What do you expect Ross to say? He would say the same thing if Rubens was doing all the winning. What better way to boost your driver's confidence than to compare him with the best in the world. Ask him 10 years from who he thinks was the better driver.




Crikey. If only there was room in the universe for two differing opinions.

Guess what? There is. If you want to believe Button is better than Schumacher, go right ahead. He's not... Hell, Alonso is a better driver, but go right ahead.




Now who said anything about "equal"? Is this why you're getting all bent out of shape?

Actually I'm in pretty good shape. Lost 70 lbs, and I'm pretty sure I can now fit in those Russel racing school formula cars which was my goal. Anyways, a lot of people in the media who compare Button to Schumacher always claim being able to put in fast laps when you have to as proof that he is on par with Schumahcer. All I'm saying is that if that's the criteria then we might as well put Alonso, Kimi, Lewis, and Felipe up there with Schumacher.


Wait... two renowned expert wet drivers failed to finish a wet race (Schumacher's car failed 3 laps from the end, but he was classified 8th and got a point), and Button in the 4th best car (of 10) that year managed to beat both finishing drivers in the 3nd best car, the finishing driver in the 2nd best car and his own teammate to win and that was in some way unremarkable?

Lest we forget, Schumacher never challenged Button's lead in that race even before he "failed to finish the race".

My mistake, but still, until now Button has never won flat out, rain or sunshine. A win's a win, but a win like Senna in 1989 Japanese GP, Schumacher in Spain 1996, and Lewis Hamilton in Silverstone 2008, is remarkable. Hungary 2006 was won by inheriting the lead. The only reason that's remembered so much is because it was Button first win after a long time racing in F1.

What is it with British drivers? Last two years it was "Senna-esque", now it's "Schumacher-like".

That's a very good point. Now, let's see what Schumacher drove and how he did with them.

1992 - Benetton inferior to Williams, Mansell took the trophy.
1993 - Benetton inferior to Williams, Prost took the trophy.
1994 - Benetton the fastest car out there, Schumacher took the trophy.
1995 - As in 1994.
1996 - Ferrari inferior to Williams, Hill took the trophy.
1997 - Ferrari approximately on a par with Williams, Villeneuve took the trophy.
1998 - Ferrari approximately on a par with McLaren, Häkkinen took the trophy.
1999 - As in 1998.
2000 - Ferrari superior to McLaren, Schumacher took the trophy.
2001 - Ferrari superior to anything by quite a margin, Schumacher took the trophy.
2002 - As in 2001.
2003 - Ferrari superior to McLaren, Schumacher took the trophy.
2004 - As in 2001 and 2002.
2005 - Ferrari inferior to Renault, Alonso took the trophy.
2006 - Ferrari slightly inferior to Renault, Alonso took the trophy.

The quick survey shows that every single year when Schumacher was crowned the champion he had the best car out there. Surprise surprise. Was he all that good after all? Undoubtedly one of the best ever, that can't be denied, but not the end-of-all driver when it comes to pure skill. There have been better ones, there are better ones and there will be better ones.

In everyone of those years he didn't win the Championship, Michael won races. In 2006 he had 7 wins. One of the reasons Michael is considered the best ever is because he had so many performances like Spain 1996. Michael was a master at overtaking people. He didn't win 7 World Titles by lucking into it. IMO the only other drivers that can be compared, and might be better than Michael, are Senna, Nuvolari, and Fangio.
 
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Guess what? There is. If you want to believe Button is better than Schumacher, go right ahead. He's not... Hell, Alonso is a better driver, but go right ahead.

Again, who said anything about "better"?

You've invented this fantasy world where, because Button is being compared to Schumacher, people think the drivers are "equal" or that Button is "better". Who said that and where?
 
Ha! Most of Hamilton's British fans were Buttoneers to begin with. Then Lewis showed up and everyone jumped ship at the first sign of trouble. I find it rather ironic that now Lewis is floundering at best and Button is having a rather easier time of it, they're all crawling back to him.

At least some of us stuck with supporting Button, even when he went through two exceptionally difficult seasons at Honda.

Actually (at least from what I've noticed), Button never had big support. A lot of people lost interest in F1 when Schumi was dominating all the time - myself included. Alonso made it more interesting and when Hamilton showed up it got better again. Both Alonso and Hamilton helped reignite a lot of interest in F1 in the general public (especially for the British and Spanish).

A lot of the general public may have now moved to Button but I think very few of them will have been "Buttoneers" to start with - and if they were, it's because of the British press overhyping him, something many seem to have an issue with Hamilton.
 
I picked Button in every fantasy F1 team I've ever made :D

Roo was wearing a Button/Williams T-shirt at the weekend he got when he was about 12 (as evidenced by the quality of fit). daan said "You glory hunter! You're jumping on the Button bandwagon! You bought that off eBay!"
 
When the dust settles, only the records reveil the the greats.

Schui holds all records bar most laps and F1 starts.

Are the records relivent to what truly happened?
 
When the dust settles, only the records reveil the the greats.

Schui holds all records bar most laps and F1 starts...

...And consecutive race finishes, and highest win percentage, and consecutive wins, and consecutive pole positions, and consecutive fastest laps. :D
 
All of which is down to the FACT that he had the best car most of the time and the total lack of a world class teammate who would have been able to complete with him and take wins, poles, fastest laps and championships. Plus teammates who were not allowed to compete with him. Records in his case mean nothing at all.

Michael Schumacher = World Class = YES

Michael Schumacher = All Time Great = Sorry not provable.
 
All of which is down to the FACT that he had the best car most of the time and the total lack of a world class teammate who would have been able to complete with him and take wins, poles, fastest laps and championships. Plus teammates who were not allowed to compete with him. Records in his case mean nothing at all.

Michael Schumacher = World Class = YES

Michael Schumacher = All Time Great = Sorry not provable.
Show me this most of the time FACT.
 
Schumacher is one of the best F1 drivers ever. But considering he was almost his entire career treated as "first" driver, I won't rate him as high as a few others, like:

(in chronological order)

Fangio
Moss
Clark
Stewart
Lauda
Prost
Senna

(I could add Nuvolari and Gilles Villeneuve to that list too)
 
Show me this most of the time FACT.

That's a very good point. Now, let's see what Schumacher drove and how he did with them.

1992 - Benetton inferior to Williams, Mansell took the trophy.
1993 - Benetton inferior to Williams, Prost took the trophy.
1994 - Benetton the fastest car out there, Schumacher took the trophy.
1995 - As in 1994.
1996 - Ferrari inferior to Williams, Hill took the trophy.
1997 - Ferrari approximately on a par with Williams, Villeneuve took the trophy.
1998 - Ferrari approximately on a par with McLaren, Häkkinen took the trophy.
1999 - As in 1998.
2000 - Ferrari superior to McLaren, Schumacher took the trophy.
2001 - Ferrari superior to anything by quite a margin, Schumacher took the trophy.
2002 - As in 2001.
2003 - Ferrari superior to McLaren, Schumacher took the trophy.
2004 - As in 2001 and 2002.
2005 - Ferrari inferior to Renault, Alonso took the trophy.
2006 - Ferrari slightly inferior to Renault, Alonso took the trophy.

The quick survey shows that every single year when Schumacher was crowned the champion he had the best car out there. Surprise surprise. Was he all that good after all? Undoubtedly one of the best ever, that can't be denied, but not the end-of-all driver when it comes to pure skill. There have been better ones, there are better ones and there will be better ones.

Do you agree with this?
 
I picked Button in every fantasy F1 team I've ever made :D

Roo was wearing a Button/Williams T-shirt at the weekend he got when he was about 12 (as evidenced by the quality of fit). daan said "You glory hunter! You're jumping on the Button bandwagon! You bought that off eBay!"

He was just jealous. And it was a Button / Promatecme F3 team T-shirt, thank you very much. And I have two of them. FACT.
Why are we capitalising the word FACT?
I am kicking myself now for not buying a few 1:18ths of his last year though - I bet they're going to be quite expensive soon.
 
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I've always liked Jens, nice lad. Doesn't try to BS anyone.

It's pretty much impossible for me to be a fan of anyone though.
 
The teams have until tomorrow to lodge entries into 2010, and only Williams has lodged an entry for 2010. Could this mean no more ferrari, mclaren, renault, red bull, toyota, bmw? That would be the end of F1 for sure.
 
No, because they can still enter later, the only problem arises when they enter later and there are no places left...
 
The teams have until tomorrow to lodge entries into 2010, and only Williams has lodged an entry for 2010. Could this mean no more ferrari, mclaren, renault, red bull, toyota, bmw? That would be the end of F1 for sure.

I thought that USGP filed their official entry as well.
 
I meant teams that are currently in the sport, not the newbies for 2010
 
This will be the last time I'll ask what song was used in the second part of the video at F1.com, because I think there should be a "Formula 1 what's That Song?" thread here.
Where people can easily can find out what songs where used in videos from the F1 website.

Thanks for whomever tells me what song it is.
 
I don't think it's that important... Most here watch the entire race anyway, not just the (lacking) summary on F1.com...
 
This will be the last time I'll ask what song was used in the second part of the video at F1.com, because I think there should be a "Formula 1 what's That Song?" thread here.
Where people can easily can find out what songs where used in videos from the F1 website.

Thanks for whomever tells me what song it is.

I answered in your thread but the song is "Action" by Sweet.
And I agree with Metar, its not really that important is it? I prefer the BBC "90 second" highlights if I want to remind myself.
 
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