2009 Grand Prix de Monaco

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Well, there's the turkish grand prix next, so i guess it's safe to say massa for the win.
Now see that, right there? That's you falling into the trap of the gambler's fallacy. Say you're playing roulette in a casino and for the past fifty spins of the wheel, the ball has always landed on red. Now, the temptation is there to gamble on the ball landing on a red number for the fifty-first spin, because the pattern has so far always come up red. But each spin of the roulette wheel is a separate spin; the fiftieth spin has no influence on the fifty-first, just as the forty-ninth spin had no influence on the fiftieth.

Now, I know Formula One is far more complex than a simple game of chance - indeed, chance has very little to do with it - but just because Massa has won the past three races does not mean that he will win the next. After all, Kimi Raikkonen won the inaugural event in 2005, so one could make the argument that Massa has, at best, a seventy-five percent chance of winning. But that argument would be based on Massa and Raikkonen being the only cars in the race. There are a whole host of factors that you have to consider: the weather could turn wet, for one; this year the race is being held in the Turkish summer as opposed to spring and autumn in the past. Istanbul is a vastly different circuit to Monaco, so Red Bull's diffuser may come good. The tyre compounds Bridgestone brings could suffer severe unprecedented graining between qualifying and the race the way they did in Monaco. Since the 2009 regulations are so very different to the 2008 rules, Brawn are still the team to beat based on their consistency. After all, for all the advantages that Ferrari's overhaul afforded the F60 in the past two races, they were still unable to catch the Brawns in cars that have remained relatively the same between events (and by 'relatively the same', I mean relatively the same compared to the Ferraris).

My point is that each race has to be taken on its individual merits, rather like an individual spin of the roulette wheel (but unlike roulette, Formula One is dictated by far more variables than chance, and so it is easier to make an informed guess at who is likely to come out on top). Simply because Massa has three wins in Turkey does not guarantee him a forth consecutive title. It helps his odds, yes, but there is no one circuit that has had every Grand Prix won by a single driver regardless of the car he is driving. Of course, the same variables that dictate the performance of one driver dicate the individual performances of all drivers, and thus Massa is by no means assured of victory.
 
The tyre compounds Bridgestone brings could suffer severe unprecedented graining between qualifying and the race the way they did in Monaco.

Ferrari are easy on their tyres, as well as the Brawns.

The fact that the Bridgestones chosen for the races this year are horribly unsuited to the track should only bother the Williams, which is utterly hopeless when on the wrong tyre. Half the time, they're too soft and therefore graining. The other half, they're too hard and fail to reach operating temperature.

they were still unable to catch the Brawns in cars that have remained relatively the same between events (and by 'relatively the same', I mean relatively the same compared to the Ferraris).

Incorrect - both teams introduced only small changes, such as added gurney-flaps to the front wings. Barely any changes between Spain and Monaco. Also, Brawn already introduced several updates to their cars, most notably new sidepods for Barcelona.
 
Incorrect - both teams introduced only small changes, such as added gurney-flaps to the front wings. Barely any changes between Spain and Monaco. Also, Brawn already introduced several updates to their cars, most notably new sidepods for Barcelona.
I meant over the course of the season. Brawn might have new sidepods, but I believe the F60 had a much larger upgrade.
 
I meant over the course of the season. Brawn might have new sidepods, but I believe the F60 had a much larger upgrade.

Before Spain, indeed. But for two races straight, the Ferraris, nearly unchanged, were very close to the Brawn cars.

And PJ-FFL meant the Ferrari boys are back in terms of pace - and they certainly are, and no point denying it. Championship-wise, there's no use watching this season anymore, Brawn have it wrapped up.
 
Was that Austin Powers driving the BGP winning car?



YEAH BABY MONACO....YEAH BABY HAHAHA
 
That's not BBC. Everything during the race itself is the FOM feed. Showing Fisico is the decision of the FOM director... Only the pre-race stuff is filmed independantly.

Actually I was talking about BBC's commentary, I know they have no control over the live feed.
 
I noticed your earlier post hoping he was gong to win.

You didn't really think someone running so light on fuel was going to do anything other than go backwards did you?

I always hope for the best from Vettel. Even if it's a little extreme.
 
Far from it, I'm afraid. Competitive the may be, but by Ferrari's standards, they are by no means back. Consider this: Kimi Raikkonen and Felipe Massa have nine and eight points respectively. Jenson Button has fifty-one; more than five times as many. At the current rate, there is simply no way that either Ferrari driver will be able to catch Button. It's going to take an absolute miracle for the to catch him, or something truly unexpected. It's the same story in Constructors' Championship: Ferrari have seventeen points to Brawn's eighty-six.

I have to disagree with this, I am going to quote myself here.
I am almost certain Ferrari can keep it up. In terms of tracks Monaco and Catalunya are opposites. While they both require high downforce wings, they require different approaches. Catulunya is most certainly an Aero track, good Aerodynamics largely determine how fast you are. Ferrari did well at this. Monaco is a tight street circuit which requires good mechanical grip, clearly the Ferrari has plenty of this too now. All that is left to test the versatility of the Ferrari is a power track like Monza, I doubt the Ferrari engine is too shabby though. :p

The car now shows it can handle a wide variety of tracks, so I am not expecting it to be up and down in terms of performance.

I think the fact they put in two solid performances at tracks which test two different aspects of grip, shows Ferrari are good at both extremes and should be able to handle the in between tracks just aswell.

There are still tracks like Monza which test the engine, and while I think the Mercedes edges it, particularly if you include KERS, Ferrari aren't far behind in that area either.

Also we can now say that both drivers are comfortable in the car so things are looking rossey for Ferrari.

I wouldn't say Ferrari are going to win the championship, in fact Brawn would have to have self destruct to loose this season now, but I think you can expect to see a Red car battling for wins for the duration of the season, and that's something that certainly wasn't happening during the first few races.

The reason I don't think we will see Brawn GP self destruct is simply down to Brawn himself and the drivers consistency (Button in particular). The Brawn car (and I am sure people are going to disagree here) hasn't been the fastest car in terms of pace for the last four races, however thanks to Brawn's strategy and Buttons consistency they have pretty much walked all the races.

Compare this to the likes of Vettel (who I was hoping would be in the midst of battle with Button in terms of points), isn't going to catch up and is only going to fall behind as the higher budget teams push on. Vettel himself has made mistakes, Australia, Monaco and a poor getaway in Spain. Also poor strategy by the team hasn't helped him take advantage of what probably has been the quickest car in the last few races (Monaco excluded). So even if they improve relative to brawn in terms of car performance over the season, they are still going to trip over the likes of Ferrari and no doubt Ferrari will come out on top.
 
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Impressive win by Button ... again. The guy isn't making any mistakes since the start of the season and if he keeps it that way he'll be champion soon.

Rubens is keeping as close as he can, now the gap is 16 points and in normal conditions this would mean nothing at this point of the championship (one off by Button coupled with a win by Rubens would get this back to 6 points) but it seems: a) Button isn't doing anything wrong; b) the Brawns don'thave any reliability problems.

So, either Rubens gets the race consistency he has been lacking, or in a few more rounds he'll have Button completely out of reach.

Ferrari seems to be the closest competitor to the Brawn now (front row start; 3th and 4th at the end of the race) but Monaco isn't exactly a "normal" circuit, so we'll see.

BMW and Toyota are in a real bad shape, RBR was dissapointing (Webber saved the day, however) and both REnault and Williams continue to be better in practise than in race.

Unluckiest guy of the race: Piquet
 
Everything during the race itself is the FOM feed. Showing Fisico is the decision of the FOM director...

While certainly the exception, I believe this year Monaco world-feed footage was produced by local TMC.
 
Nope - they actually explained that in detail on RTL: The FOM actually looked at the horde of security-cameras all over Monaco, and picked those with the best view as the location to install their own cameras - in addition to the usual crane-cams. That's why we get these shots from the rooftops.
 
I've got to come back on what I said about BrawnGP yesterday, and correct myself.

I just realized that Barrichello has finished behind Button in every race now which, by my claims, then would mean that Barrichello has been driving as number 2 for the whole season now which is rediculous to think.
 
I think people are reading far too much into Button's eleventh-hour strategy change in Barcelona. It's true that Brawn wouldn't have been too disappointed that Button won ahead of Barrichello, but that doesn't make them guilty of issuing team orders or taking a more subversive route and sabotaging their own driver long enough to delay him. Brawn himself, Button and Barrichello have all said that team orders don't exist, and Barrichello has first stated that he'll ignore team orders if they're issued, and later annouced he'll quit there and then if he's told to make way for Button. To add to that, the radio transmissions between Barrichello and Jock Clear in Barcelona made it pretty obvious that Barrichello was simply off the pace because Clear kept telling him to get the hammer down.
 
What a disappointing race
-Button finishes first
-Vettel crashes
-They let some annoying, dumb Spice Girl on TV

Amen to that!

Button is really bugging me now. It seems like every time a British driver wins a race then the press go mental over them and dub them the new 'British hero'. It's always 'nationality first' here. Some of the papers are already comparing him to Schumacher, which I think is far too extreme. I really don't think he has the talent of Schumacher, he just happens to have a very good car and has kept himself out of trouble most of time. If he really was a good as Schumacher I'm sure he would have got a contract with a team like Ferrari several seasons ago, although he did moderately well with BAR.
 
Funny news taken from here: http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090525164455.shtml



F1 drivers campaigned to have a huge billboard depicting an attractive woman removed prior to Sunday's Monaco Grand Prix.

The advertisement for Martini stood right in the drivers' line of sight as they accelerated out of the Loews hairpin and turned right.

Race winner Jenson Button admitted to the Bild newspaper: "Every time you passed her, it was as though she was looking right at you."

The model, 29-year-old Jessiqa Pace, was in Monaco, laughing at the story but admitting she would have felt "terrible if someone got hurt."

The picture in "F1 Live" didn't show clearly what was the problem, but I did a litle search and found one better. I don't know how Button thought she was looking at him, I think his confidence is really high at the moment! :lol:



Here you have it


picture.php





EDIT - btw, what car is that? Tobbaco sponsored and grooved tyres?
 
Amen to that!

Button is really bugging me now. It seems like every time a British driver wins a race then the press go mental over them and dub them the new 'British hero'. It's always 'nationality first' here. Some of the papers are already comparing him to Schumacher, which I think is far too extreme. I really don't think he has the talent of Schumacher, he just happens to have a very good car and has kept himself out of trouble most of time. If he really was a good as Schumacher I'm sure he would have got a contract with a team like Ferrari several seasons ago, although he did moderately well with BAR.

Well, yes, it is nationality first here. British should support the British, and that's why in British newspapers, if a Briton wins they are likely to be happy as it's their hero, racing for their country.

And Micheal Shumacher, well, didn't have any skill at all. The reason he won was because he had a fast car and his team would always give him the advantage over his team-mate. That is not the case with Brawn, they have a fast car, yes, but they have good, skilled and honest drivers, it's just that one is winning more than the other.

Oh and Hun, that was I think a news story on the build-up to the race as well, on the BBC of course.
 
Now see that, right there? That's you falling into the trap of the gambler's fallacy. Say you're playing roulette in a casino and for the past fifty spins of the wheel, the ball has always landed on red. Now, the temptation is there to gamble on the ball landing on a red number for the fifty-first spin, because the pattern has so far always come up red. But each spin of the roulette wheel is a separate spin; the fiftieth spin has no influence on the fifty-first, just as the forty-ninth spin had no influence on the fiftieth.

Not to quibble, but this is exactly backwards. The Gambler's Fallacy is the common mistaken belief that, since the odds of the ball landing on Red and Black are even, that a string of Reds makes it more likely that Black will come up to "even things out." Your conclusion that prior results have no impact on future results on a fair table, however, is correct.

However, if I were sitting at a table where red had come up 50 times in a row, I'd be betting heavily on Red, because it would be more likely that you are sitting at a biased (or rigged) table, than that the string of 50 occurred naturally! ;)

In sporting events such as racing, you are more likely to see streaks persist than to see random results. This is why we have favorites in the series. Though I would agree that it's a stretch to predict that Massa is a favorite to win in Turkey based on one good result.
 
EDIT - btw, what car is that? Tobbaco sponsored and grooved tyres?

Probably a Ferrari from either 2005 or 2006

edit - Oops, they didn't have tire designations in 2005
edit2 - Nor in 2006

Looks like it's a 2007

Search for F2007 Monaco on google
 
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The 2007 cars were allowed the tobacco logos at certain countries that allowed it. Whereas now its just a blanket ban.

Amen to that!

Button is really bugging me now. It seems like every time a British driver wins a race then the press go mental over them and dub them the new 'British hero'. It's always 'nationality first' here. Some of the papers are already comparing him to Schumacher, which I think is far too extreme. I really don't think he has the talent of Schumacher, he just happens to have a very good car and has kept himself out of trouble most of time. If he really was a good as Schumacher I'm sure he would have got a contract with a team like Ferrari several seasons ago, although he did moderately well with BAR.

Like any other country is different....

The press went mental over Hill and Mansell before Hamilton. Its nothing new and its nothing that bothers me, why do you let it bother you?

I've got to come back on what I said about BrawnGP yesterday, and correct myself.

I just realized that Barrichello has finished behind Button in every race now which, by my claims, then would mean that Barrichello has been driving as number 2 for the whole season now which is rediculous to think.

I'd like see some proof first.
 
The picture in "F1 Live" didn't show clearly what was the problem, but I did a litle search and found one better. I don't know how Button thought she was looking at him, I think his confidence is really high at the moment! :lol:

Apparently, according to the RTL guys, he even asked for her name and number! :lol:

And Micheal Shumacher, well, didn't have any skill at all. The reason he won was because he had a fast car and his team would always give him the advantage over his team-mate. That is not the case with Brawn, they have a fast car, yes, but they have good, skilled and honest drivers, it's just that one is winning more than the other.

My sarcasm detector is suspiciously quiet. It lacks the necessary smiley to set it off...

The 2007 cars were allowed the tobacco logos at certain countries that allowed it. Whereas now its just a blanket ban.

They're still allowed, they just choose not to. No team except Ferrari has tobacco sponsorship remaining because the tobacco companies won't pay for just three-four races of coverage.. And Ferrari chose not to display the logos even when they legally can - Monaco, China, etc - out of choice, not because they're forced to.
 
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They're still allowed, they just choose not to. No team except Ferrari has tobacco sponsorship remaining because the tobacco companies won't pay for just three-four races of coverage.. And Ferrari chose not to display the logos even when they legally can - Monaco, China, etc - out of choice, not because they're forced to.

Oh ok, fair enough. Thats fairly strange but then again I suppose that barcode has become more part of Marlboro's image than the letters of their name!
 
Like any other country is different....

The press went mental over Hill and Mansell before Hamilton. Its nothing new and its nothing that bothers me, why do you let it bother you?

I liked Button for the first two races, until people starting finding it strange when I said that Vettel was my favourite, as according to them; 'you must only support British drivers,'. And it annoyed me how loads of people I know immediately switched their allegiance from Hamilton to Button, it's so shallow and thickle.

Plus, I want Vettel to win the Championship, not Button.
 
I liked Button for the first two races, until people starting finding it strange when I said that Vettel was my favourite, as according to them; 'you must only support British drivers,'. And it annoyed me how loads of people I know immediately switched their allegiance from Hamilton to Button, it's so shallow and thickle.

Plus, I want Vettel to win the Championship, not Button.

I'm glad to not know such silly people.

Nothing you can do, just nod and ignore. Clearly such people don't follow F1 too closely if they are only interested in whichever driver is in front.

No sarcasm there.

Ahem, 1994 Spanish Grand Prix...you say Schumacher has no skill?
 
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Vettel crashed at Saint Devote, that's Mirabeau. :)
The second half, Mirabeau Bas. I didn't even know there were two parts to the corner until the other day; I always thought they were treated separately. PJ-FFL, if you still don't know which corner it is, it's the right-hander out of the hairpin. It's nowhere near Ste. Devote, but I can see how it would be easy to confuse the two.
 
And Micheal Shumacher, well, didn't have any skill at all. The reason he won was because he had a fast car and his team would always give him the advantage over his team-mate.

I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for your ignorance. Schumy can only be compared to 2 maybe 3 other drivers in GP racing history, and Button is most definitely not one of them. Not even close.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk2p2nRK-p4

http://www.bharatstudent.com/ctv/watchvideo.php?vid=ibjohijqoeem

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=8421644483642064411&hl=en&fs=true
 
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