2009 Turkish Grand Prix

[prisonermonkeys]

Congratulations to Brawn GP, but please give Bruno a shot.

Why? There have been other, more impressive drivers in GP2 than he. I can see Grosjean, di Grassi, Hulkenberg, Zuber and Petrov in Formula One before Senna (though some, like Petrov, might be to secure funding from untapped locales like Russia; he has been pretty consistent though).

 

[Metar]

Error 430: Funny not interpreted correctly. (with apologies to Famine for the shameless plagiary)

This could be because:

• Failure to look at the post
• INTERNET IZ SERIUOS BUSINESS!
• Mornington Crescent

Please refer to your joke manufacturer.


Bruno Mantovani.

 

[livemusic]

There's one for the next GP already:

 

[Peter]

Why? There have been other, more impressive drivers in GP2 than he. I can see Grosjean, di Grassi, Hulkenberg, Zuber and Petrov in Formula One before Senna (though some, like Petrov, might be to secure funding from untapped locales like Russia; he has been pretty consistent though).

He's a Senna, and he has done pretty good in GP2 to get a spot in F1. He was supposed to take Rubens' spot for 2009 but Brawn decided to keep the old rag. And i'd love to actually live to see a Senna in action live, rather that in an old youtube video.

 

[Sureboss]

VERY Boring race , and very boring season thus far, seems as Brawn is the only team that was ready for 2009.

No, Honda were ready for 2009. This is the Honda car, the £400 Million Honda budget.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

He's a Senna, and he has done pretty good in GP2 to get a spot in F1. He was supposed to take Rubens' spot for 2009 but Brawn decided to keep the old rag. And i'd love to actually live to see a Senna in action live, rather that in an old youtube video.

Don't forget: Bruno is NOT his uncle. As Piquet, Nakajima and even Rosberg have proved so far, a famous name is not an acceptable alternative to raw talent.

 

[Danny]

Rosberg's not been too bad...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Compared to everyone else, he doesn't have much to work with.

 

[Ferrari_Tifoso]

Oops. I forgot how internets forums is are the serious business. Next time I'll put my suit and tie before I start typing.


ANYWAYS...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrAmIeKKMj4

and just in case you don't get the tank joke...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG10GmYV888

 

[Metar]

I can't believe we're getting into a Senna argument only because dyr? failed to spot the photo and associated joke.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Seems like as good a reason as any. We've got to do something between now and Friday.

 

[Metar]

Because, *cough*, the title of the thread reads "2009 Turkish GP", and Senna's F1 potential has nothing to do with this particular thread. A caricature by a Bruno Mantovani was posted on the subject of the 2009 Turkish GP, yet you spun it off to the discussed-to-death subject of Bruno Senna.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Uh-huh. I'm like the writers of Family Guy, collecting idea balls from my tank and turning them into random jokes that have nothing to do with the main plot and so are really just filler because I don't have enough material to jutify myself.

 

[mipuumal]

Uh-huh. I'm like the writers of Family Guy, collecting idea balls from my tank and turning them into random jokes that have nothing to do with the main plot and so are really just filler because I don't have enough material to jutify myself.

Stop it, Family Guy is hilarious.

If you want a 100% plotdriven show, I suggest you watch 24 (which was horrible this year btw).

I think Bruno has a decent chance of getting in to F1 next year, thanks to the 3 to 11 new teams.

 

[Ardius]

I think Bruno has a decent chance of getting in to F1 next year, thanks to the 3 to 11 new teams.

Why? New teams need experienced drivers, granted some rookies are eventually going to be brought up but there is a reason why Brawn went with Barrichello over Senna.
There are several experienced drivers sticking around and the only team looking like it might field an all-rookie team is USGPE by the sounds of things. Prodrive would very likely take on someone like Anthony Davidson for example.

You need experienced drivers to develop the cars and to give reliable and consistent results as a new team. I think at best we will see 2 or 3 rookies, not necessarily Senna though. Even Piquet Jr is someone to consider as bad as he is...

 

[Peter]

Rookies aren't always not as good as the non-rookies. Senna kicked some good ass in GP2, and deserves a spot in F1 more than some people in F1 do today. I'll use Lewis as an example. He was F3 champ, GP2 champ and, in his first year, came 2nd in the WDC, ahead of his old-timer team mate, Alonso. And the next year, he won it. F1 teams have this mentality that an old timer is better than a rookie, and this is something that will be a setback for drivers trying to enter the sport. So i'm glad that these new teams will be entering F1, it will give drivers a chance to enter the sport and stop waiting.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Sebastian Vettel and Lewis Hamilton have been the only notable rookie drivers of late. Buemi isn't doing too bad, but I suspect a monkey could out-race Bourdais.

See, the problem with your theory is that Formula One is a radically different beast than GP2 in terms of competition. I think Vitantonio Liuzzi won just about everything he entered, but when it came to Formula One, he was nowhere. And it's not an uncommon story: for some reason, drivers just don't have what it takes to succeed at the pinnacle of motorsport. Nelson Piquet is a perfect example, thought I think a lot of the blame for his disappointing career can be laid at the feet of Flavio Briatore (because Briatore favours Alonso exclusively, Piquet is pretty much there to make up the numbers and so has not had a chance to develop as a driver, meaning he's pretty much the same person who was three years ago).

It all depends on how everything plays out, really. Assuming for the moment that all the current teams arrive in 2010, Brawn are not going to be taking rookie drivers. Everybody is going to want to drive for them. They may pick up someone like Alonso, Rosberg or Kubica if they don't keep Barrichello. Team US-F1 has made it pretty clear that they want American drivers, so they'll take at least one; the other might be someone like Barrichello: an older, very experienced driver that they can anchor the team around. Being a GP2 team, I can see Campos promoting at least one of the Barwa Addax drivers to a race seat, as Barwa Addax were formerly Campos. I'm going to bank on Petrov for the race seat, because Grosjean has close ties with Renault. And there's no real telling where Manor Grand Prix might go. GP2 drivers, for sure, but I suspect that will be a case of whoever has more sponsorship money to begin with.

The pint is that there's only going to bea very limited number of seats, and while you're absolutely right in saying that rookie drivers will have a strong presence in 2010, there's probably going to be more names than seats and Senna is likely to miss the cut. The only reason Honda were considering him was because of his sponsorship.

 

[PeterJB]

I'll use Lewis as an example. He was F3 champ, GP2 champ and, in his first year, came 2nd in the WDC, ahead of his old-timer team mate, Alonso. And the next year, he won it.

That's because he started with the fastest car. Most drivers started out at the back with Minardi or Jordan, but people keep saying that he is world class when most of it comes down to the fact that he had a car that could keep him at the front of the grid and out of trouble. Now that he's fallen back to the midfield, we'll see how good he really is.

 

[Sureboss]

Yeh, he never drove well. Always the car.

 

[Greycap]

That's because he started with the fastest car. Most drivers started out at the back with Minardi or Jordan, but people keep saying that he is world class when most of it comes down to the fact that he had a car that could keep him at the front of the grid and out of trouble. Now that he's fallen back to the midfield, we'll see how good he really is.

Talking to the walls there, my friend...

Yeh, he never drove well. Always the car.

...as shown.

I don't think anybody says Hamilton isn't a good driver. It's just that he isn't the magical miracle from the Heaven made of solid gold as he's made out to be. Had he driven a Force India or the like for his first two years he'd have only dreamed about getting points, now he drove the best car and won. Surprise, really. What about the likes of Alonso at Minardi in 2001, Räikkönen at Sauber during the same year? Oh right, I forgot that they're just hopeless drivers because they couldn't win anything with those go-karts and needed top team cars to be champions.

 

[Danny]

This seems as good a time as any...

 

[Metar]

See, the problem with your theory is that Formula One is a radically different beast than GP2 in terms of competition.

That's true, but it's far less of a gap to the older F3000 category. We have quite a few GP2 champs in F1, impressive considering they only started GP2 in 2005, and they've been pretty successful - one even the reigning world champion. Out of the old F3000 formula, virtually none of their champions of the modern era made it big-time in F1.

I think Vitantonio Liuzzi won just about everything he entered, but when it came to Formula One, he was nowhere.

...with a nowhere car. In the first half of 2007, the STR02 was a game of Russian Roulette: It broke down more often than not. It was a twitchy, unreliable piece of bovine excretions that had more mechanical double-DNFs than anything - and to top it off, it was slow, very slow (barely ahead of Spyker and Aguri at times). In the second half of the season (post-Speed), Liuzzi was ahead of Vettel while the latter was adapting, but even when Vettel "got his mojo working", Liuzzi wasn't too far off what is one of F1's most talented young drivers. At Shanghai, Vettel scored 4th - and Liuzzi, on an inferior strategy (two stopper in the rain to Vettel's one-stop), still got 6th.

 

[Peter]

That's because he started with the fastest car. Most drivers started out at the back with Minardi or Jordan, but people keep saying that he is world class when most of it comes down to the fact that he had a car that could keep him at the front of the grid and out of trouble. Now that he's fallen back to the midfield, we'll see how good he really is.

Wouldn't he have to start in a good car to do that good? Most champions have won because of the better car, like Schumacher with ferrari, Hakkinen with mclaren, Alonso with renault, and of course a champ to be, Button with brawn. To be a F1 champ you need superb driving skills and a decent car. Those all did it with that. I have to agree with you on the fact that he is not world class ,but he still is pretty good now isn't he? Not making it into Q3 might not be a helper, but he has finished in the top 10 this year. Bottom line, Lewis is not world class, Schumacher is, Lewis is just economy class.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

There's a big difference between "world class" and "economy class". As Button has proved over the course of 2008 and 2009, the car makes the man just as much as the man makes the car. Lewis Hamilton might have a poor machine to race with this year, but he had an excellent one in 2007 and 2008. And while Schumacher has seven world titles to his credit, he also experienced times when he has a poor car. Remember 2005?

 

[niky]

Just about everyone on the grid is a great driver in their own respect. There are champions who've gone into Formula One who have nothing to show for it.

Hamilton had a good car... but both of his title or almost-title years have been fights against drivers who've also had good cars.

Even with the piece of merde he has now, he's shown flashes of brilliance... but of course... he's also shown some rookie-ish mistakes. So he's not a real golden boy... but to dismiss his championship outright is to disregard some of the finest drives I've seen in the past decade.

 

[LancerEvo7]

You have to be a great driver to make it into F1 in the first place. Sometimes it's the car, not the driver. (Or in some cases, being the teams #2 driver)

 

[PeterJB]

Wouldn't he have to start in a good car to do that good?

Yes, that's why he did so well.

 

[Ardius]

Rookies aren't always not as good as the non-rookies. Senna kicked some good ass in GP2, and deserves a spot in F1 more than some people in F1 do today. I'll use Lewis as an example. He was F3 champ, GP2 champ and, in his first year, came 2nd in the WDC, ahead of his old-timer team mate, Alonso. And the next year, he won it. F1 teams have this mentality that an old timer is better than a rookie, and this is something that will be a setback for drivers trying to enter the sport. So i'm glad that these new teams will be entering F1, it will give drivers a chance to enter the sport and stop waiting.

You miss the point....entirely.

McLaren were not a new team when Hamilton joined were they? He was jumping into the seat of a car that had been perfected through previous seasons and drivers. Plus he had plenty of testing with the team before hand.

I'm not denying Hamilton is a good driver, however, you can't use his example for why brand new teams should take on rookies.

The reason why F1 teams prefer old hands to new drivers is beacuse they need reliable and consistent results. Rookies are a risk and the problem is worse now because of the lack of testing. What if a team end up with 2 Piquet's? Better off to have 2 Fisichella's who at least finish the race than some young guns who don't finish at all and have little useful input on the car development.

Once the rules become a little more stable perhaps we will see more rookies. But as it is, its too risky.

 

[daan]

Turkish GP anyone?

Take any other discussions to another thread. Thanks.

 

[Peter]

What if a team end up with 2 Piquet's? Better off to have 2 Fisichella's who at least finish the race than some young guns who don't finish at all and have little useful input on the car development.

True, no one wants to see another Yuji Ide again!