2010 Italian Grand Prix

[prisonermonkeys]

It's been a while since I've done one of these ...

Anyway, it's been two weeks since Spa, and Alonso's DNF combined with the Vettel/Button collision means that the candidates for the 2010 World Championship might have thinned out a little bit. Monza marks the end of the European leg championship and the beginning of the final phase of the season. While Ferrari are before the WMSC (see here), several teams - including McLaren and Renault - are debating the worth of the F-duct system.

And so it begins, Round XIV of the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship:

2010 ITALIAN GRAND PRIX
from the Autodromo Nazionale Monza

2009 results:
1st - Rubens BARRICHELLO (Brawn-Mercedes)
2nd - Jenson BUTTON (Brawn-Mercedes)
3rd - Kimi RAIKKONEN (Scuderia Ferrari)

Championship standings (after 13 rounds):
1st - Lewis HAMILTON (McLaren-Mercedes) / 182pts
2nd - Mark WEBBER (Red Bull Racing-Renault) / 179pts
3rd - Sebastian VETTEL (Red Bull Racing-Renault) / 151pts
4th - Jenson BUTTON (McLaren-Mercedes) / 147pts
5th - Fernando ALONSO (Scuderia Ferrari) / 141pts​

 

[Reims_]

There's a pic in your post that's 404'd according to my screen.

Edit: Nevermind...



I think Button's season is over, same as Vettel but Button in particular has been thoroughly beaten by his teammate. Should be a good race. I'm tipping Hamilton but I'd rather see Webber win.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I've changed the picture.

 

[Ardius]

I wish the Lesmo curves were still like this:

 

[Pupik]

^ Nice to hear those Matra V12 lumps growl again...they always sound like they have another 3,000 rpm to give due to their low-pitched grunt!

If that ain't an example of how far F1 has come in braking and aerodynamics, I don't know what is. At that point (1978) ground effects were used exclusively by Lotus, and it wasn't until the following year that nearly everyone had a Lotus 79/wing-car copy, save Ferrari's 312T4. For the record, McLaren was the first to bring ground effects to F1, four years earlier. They only experimented with it at the 1974 Austrian GP because they thought it would aid the car on the long straights, but they hadn't really put it together as an entire package to any great effect. Being in the middle of their first championship-winning season meant it stayed on the back burner.

Sorry to get off topic, although since we've come full circle to questionable flexible wings, it seems appropriate.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

I think Button's season is over, same as Vettel but Button in particular has been thoroughly beaten by his teammate. Should be a good race. I'm tipping Hamilton but I'd rather see Webber win.

I would say its still way to early to rule out any of the front runners. 6 races left with plenty of points still to be scored. And after the last few seasons with the championship coming down to the last race and 1 point.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Button in particular has been thoroughly beaten by his teammate.

I don't think so. He's kept up fairly well, and if it weren't for bad luck in Monaco and Spa, he'd probably be much closer.

 

[Reims_]

I don't think so. He's kept up fairly well, and if it weren't for bad luck in Monaco and Spa, he'd probably be much closer.

Bad luck at Spa? If he had of qualified better (like Hamilton) he wouldn't have been around Vettel. I don't like Hamilton, but even I will admit he's better.

I would say its still way to early to rule out any of the front runners. 6 races left with plenty of points still to be scored. And after the last few seasons with the championship coming down to the last race and 1 point.

True, lots of points up for grabs. I keep thinking in the old point system.

 

[Antti-san]

Bad luck at Spa? If he had of qualified better (like Hamilton) he wouldn't have been around Vettel. I don't like Hamilton, but even I will admit he's better.

So it's Button's fault that Vettel crashed into him?

 

[Reims_]

Well there was no chance of him taking out Hamilton was there?


Altho I do remember Vettel taking out Webber under safet car at Fuji iirc...

 

[Ardius]

Button had to manage front wing damage and an unbalanced car.

I don't think anyone really thinks Button is a faster driver than Hamilton. But I wouldn't count him out at this point. Of all 5 potential champions, Button is the one with the greatest advantage at the end of a season - he doesn't lose his head. Hamilton almost didn't win 2008, let alone his 2007 season.
Webber has never really challenged for a title before and Vettel seems to be letting the pressure get to him already anyway.
Alonso has just had a terrible year all round.

I think Button's chances rely on the others becoming too conservative or making mistakes, well, he has relied on this from the start of the season really. It can easily happen though, and Button does have the ability to grab his chances (Italy 2009, Brazil 2009).
Its interesting to compare Brazil 2008 and 2009 - Hamilton approached the race pretty conservatively, trying to hold station and not pushing too far in the wet. Button woke up on race day determined to blow through the field. This is basically the opposite of their supposed styles of racing though, normally Hamilton is the daredevil win or lose racer and Button is conservative.

However, I do think that Hamilton won't do the same this year because he has already won a title. Before he was being careful because it was his first, this time around he probably won't be as conservative or prone to mistakes. Even so though, its interesting to compare each driver's character when under the pressure of a championship battle.

 

[Sureboss]

I think Hamilton has improved drastically this year. Making far fewer mistakes and still maintaining his pace, if not going quicker.

 

[niky]

I think Hamilton has matured enough to take that second championship. Spending one season in frustration trying to catch up with the Brawns and Red Bulls when McLaren was at the wrong end of the development curve may have been a good growing experience for him. He's still cocky and arrogant, and he may sometimes push the car at 11/10ths for too long, but he's a much better driver than he was three seasons ago.

Button is definitely still in it. He's got one of the best cars, he's the most careful and measured of all five WDC front-runners, and he's very good at conserving his car. He may be slower in qualifying and at the start of the race, but that gives him a better car than anyone else at the end of it...

I feel for Alonso. This should have been his year... but it isn't. He's pulled off some amazing drives, but he seems to be breaking up under pressure more now... making silly mistakes. This isn't the master tactician that we saw at Renault not so long ago... is it?

Vettel is clearly the fastest driver (I'd rate him as Hamilton or Alonso level) in the fastest car... but he's still making silly mistakes. I really gained respect for him back in 08, despite the occassional gaffe, but at this point, he isn't a rookie, anymore, and he needs to convert his natural speed into more points.

Webber... it's ups and downs. He is definitely more mature than Vettel and has better racecraft, but he's made some silly mistakes... especially on the starting grid.

I don't know how many of Webber's and Vettel's racing mistakes were due to the nature of the RBR... which requires a peculiar driving style and may be rubbish in overtaking due to the flexible aero and blown diffuser... but whether it's the car or not... those problems are hurting their championship aspirations.

Whatever it is... it's making for a hell of a championship scramble.

 

[The Outlaw]

Of all 5 potential champions, Button is the one with the greatest advantage at the end of a season - he doesn't lose his head. .

Can't say I agree with that. From my point of view his under performances (particularly in qualy) as well as responses in interviews (losing his cool) showed that the pressure was getting to him in the latter part of his 2009 WDC campaign, when his more than healthy lead was slowly but surely beggining to slip away.

I will that say getting that first one under his belt after nearly 10 years in Formula 1 will likely make a big difference (as with Hamilton) if he is in such a position again, although I believe he is going to have to rely on A LOT of luck to beat his teammate who 9 times out of 10 is the faster driver in qualy and on race day, and who also has developed into a much more complete driver himself in the past year or two.

 

[Piket]

The way i see it:
Hamilton is Senna (missing the personality charisma)
Alonso is Prost
Vettel is Mansell
Button is Keke
Webber is Nobody

 

[Reims_]

Comparing Hamilton to Senna

 

[Ardius]

Can't say I agree with that. From my point of view his under performances (particularly in qualy) as well as responses in interviews (losing his cool) showed that the pressure was getting to him in the latter part of his 2009 WDC campaign, when his more than healthy lead was slowly but surely beggining to slip away.

There's a difference between letting the pressure get to you a bit and losing your head. Button never failed to score points apart from when Grosjean took him out and his under performance in qualifying was not due to errors from pressure.
If his championship year isn't the definition of a cool, level-headed championship victory, I don't know what is.

I also don't see many examples of him losing his cool in interviews, sure in some interviews he complained and in some he praised. But nothing of the scale of Rubens "blah blah blah" and so on.

His lead was inevitably going to slip away - the bigger teams were inevitably going to start catching up over the season as they understood the regulations better and their opponents' ideas. I also never rated Jenson as the type to dominate a whole season winning almost all races and nor did Brawn have the resources to really spend on the car. Lets not forget BrawnGP didn't even have many spare parts for the first few races!
Did anyone honestly think Jenson would keep winning after Monaco and Turkey? Personally I was surprised he won that many races despite knowing he was always a good driver.

One only has to look and compare Jenson's 2009 to Red Bull's 2010 to see the huge difference in how they dealt with pressure, particularly Vettel.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Can't say I agree with that. From my point of view his under performances (particularly in qualy) as well as responses in interviews (losing his cool) showed that the pressure was getting to him in the latter part of his 2009 WDC campaign, when his more than healthy lead was slowly but surely beggining to slip away.

That was more the car than anything else. Brawn ended development around Valencia because they ran out of money to keep building it. Everyone else, however, could keep going. A lot of people seem to think that Jenson Button just gave up once he thought he had enough of a lead and just cruised to the title, but he didn't - he won the World Championship in the oldest car on the grid; he'd used it in every practice session, qualifying session and race since the very beginning of the year whereas most other teams will go through six or eight chassis. Rubens Barrichello was the only other driver to come close, but his wipeout in Singapore qualifying meant he had to switch to the team's one and only backup chassis.

 

[niky]

It was a wonder that Brawn managed to hold onto that lead and keep up with the bigger teams at the end. I was actually thinking that Jenson was slipping mid-season (when Rubens started building a head of steam against him) but he put his foot down and drove well enough after a few gaffes to score the championship clinching points.

The whole Brawn GP thing is sad, really... they came up with a revolutionary solution to the rules which had everyone else struggling to follow, but in the end, they didn't really have the huge backing of teams like Red Bull, Ferrari and McLaren to keep that advantage over the course of the season.

At least it got them Mercedes sponsorship for this season... but the new Brawn car isn't quite as good as last year's. (in comparison to the rest of the field)

 

[Alex.]

The Brawn story is sad? Oh, so THAT'S why Ross Brawn was crying when they won the drivers and constructors championships....

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I can see why you might see it as sad, but personally I think it's utterly brilliant. 2009 is going to be one of the most-remembered seasons pretty much forever, because repeating Brawn's feats is probably going to be impossible.

 

[The Outlaw]

There's a difference between letting the pressure get to you a bit and losing your head. Button never failed to score points apart from when Grosjean took him out and his under performance in qualifying was not due to errors from pressure.
If his championship year isn't the definition of a cool, level-headed championship victory, I don't know what is.

I also don't see many examples of him losing his cool in interviews, sure in some interviews he complained and in some he praised. But nothing of the scale of Rubens "blah blah blah" and so on..

I don't see how simply because of the fact that he scored points in every race (minus Spa), yet continually underperformed when he finally faced legitmate opposition is to be considered a "cool, level-headed championship victory" but that's JMO. JB basically won that Championship when the Brawn was out racing itself in the first half of the season (not that impressive in my book), while Ruben's was dealing with his brake issue which was costing him several tenths a lap (in the first half of the season).

I saw some interviews where Button just didn't seem to be to be the super relaxed and easy going guy like he usually is, and seemed rather snappy/unsettled (especially for him), but that was from my perspective. Also, Ruben's is Ruben's...we all know what a cry baby he can be at times

His lead was inevitably going to slip away - the bigger teams were inevitably going to start catching up over the season as they understood the regulations better and their opponents' ideas. I also never rated Jenson as the type to dominate a whole season winning almost all races and nor did Brawn have the resources to really spend on the car. Lets not forget BrawnGP didn't even have many spare parts for the first few races!
Did anyone honestly think Jenson would keep winning after Monaco and Turkey? Personally I was surprised he won that many races despite knowing he was always a good driver.

One only has to look and compare Jenson's 2009 to Red Bull's 2010 to see the huge difference in how they dealt with pressure, particularly Vettel.

Well we all know Vettel is as cool as cucumber...not

When you said: "Of all 5 potential champions, Button is the one with the greatest advantage at the end of a season - he doesn't lose his head." earlier, I felt that you're first of all writing off Hamilton's (already a WDC who has evolved greatly over the past year and half) & Alonso's (a 2x WDC who didn't succomb to pressure from Schumacher) ability to deal with pressure, not to mention when it's comes to having "the greatest advantage" I feel Hamilton's ability to outperform Button by a fair margin on a consistant basis is more important than some rather unproven thought that JB's greatest advantage over the other 5 contenders is his ability to deal with pressure. We will see how JB deals with pressure in these next couple of crucial races, where he will need to outperform Hamilton to keep his hopes at the title alive.

That was more the car than anything else. Brawn ended development around Valencia because they ran out of money to keep building it. Everyone else, however, could keep going. A lot of people seem to think that Jenson Button just gave up once he thought he had enough of a lead and just cruised to the title, but he didn't - he won the World Championship in the oldest car on the grid; he'd used it in every practice session, qualifying session and race since the very beginning of the year whereas most other teams will go through six or eight chassis. Rubens Barrichello was the only other driver to come close, but his wipeout in Singapore qualifying meant he had to switch to the team's one and only backup chassis.

Regardless of how many cars they went through and despite the fact that Brawn ended development on the car rather early on, the BGP-001 was still the top 2nd or 3rd car OVERALL at the very least in the second half of the season. When I mean overall, I mean it's ability to perform on the circuits which were found in the 2nd half of the calender. With that said, in the second half of the season Barichello showed what the car was capable of in qualy, but usually could not capatilize on the situation and he himself would flop. On the other hand, Button usually choked quite badly in qualy (which in F1 is just as, if not more important than the race itself) in the 2nd half of the season (not very often made it out of Q2) and had to play catch up in the race (which I admit he did a great job of) only to get a result (finishing position) that was sub par considering what the car was capable of.

 

[Ardius]

I didn't say Button will beat Hamilton easily or that Hamilton is going to struggle, I was simply stating why Button is still in it.

I did later say that I doubt Hamilton will struggle with the pressure this year, but even so, I don't think you can count Button out just yet. The points margin is not that big. (I think its only 14 points difference in the old system?)

 

[Only_in_f1]

BUTTON RULEZ OK? DON'T AGREE? LETS SPEND THE NEXT 4 PAGES ARGUING ABOUT IT.




On a serious note, should be a good race this weekend.

 

[The Outlaw]

I didn't say Button will beat Hamilton easily or that Hamilton is going to struggle, I was simply stating why Button is still in it.

I did later say that I doubt Hamilton will struggle with the pressure this year, but even so, I don't think you can count Button out just yet. The points margin is not that big. (I think its only 14 points difference in the old system?)

Well, you did say Button had the biggest advantage at the end of the season in the fact that he was best able to deal with pressure...so I'm not sure as to how I was supposed to take that, other than for what it literally meant...

And yea, you're on the dot....Button is behind 14 points to Hamilton using the old points system. And I agree the margin isn't big at all, considering there is just slightly over one DNF or bad race between the top 5. Anything can, and likely will happen

 

[Ardius]

It can be a biggest advantage, and not much of one at the same time. But I still think the way he dealt with the end of his season has been one of the best I've seen, i.e. rather than trying to be careful, he took the initiative and drove that amazing race.

As Murray said, "Anything can happen in Formula 1...and it usually does!".

 

[Tired Tyres]

I'm hoping for a Force India win in Monza. The car showed very good straight line speed at Spa and that might just pay off at Monza.

As for the Championship. Unless McLaren have done something to at least match Red Bull then this will be the last race the F-Duct gives them an advantage. Red Bull will be strong in all the last five races so I'd say Webber is the favourite to win the Championship now.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

this will be the last race the F-Duct gives them an advantage.

McLaren are supposedly not running the F-duct this weekend as the system apparently doesn't work with the low-downforce rear wings used at Monza. That said, I still think McLaren have a very good chance at winning this race. On another note, if the RB5's performance at last years Italian Grand Prix is anything to go by, then Red Bull could be in damage control this weekend. This should be an interesting weekend, can't wait!

 

[niky]

The Brawn story is sad? Oh, so THAT'S why Ross Brawn was crying when they won the drivers and constructors championships....

In that Brawn seems to have been something of a one-hit wonder? Yes, it is. A brilliant car that ended the season just very good and entered this season very good and which is now just upper-midfield. Next season they may be fighting with Lotus for entry into Q3...

I imagine Ross Brawn is very happy having proven that he can take a nothing team and make them win a championship. I bet he'd be much happier if his drivers were actually fighting for the WDC this year, too...

Comparing Hamilton to Senna

Both brilliant... both arrogant... both with that win at any cost attitude... ...of course, Hamilton hasn't crashed into anyone on purpose... yet.

 

[Ardius]

I think it should be kept in mind that the Brawn story only happened due to:
1. A big regulation change and the non-compulsory introduction of KERS which single-handedly crippled all the major teams from the previous years.
2. Honda giving up on 2008 very early and investing huge amounts of money into 2009, going as far as testing at 3 different windtunnels, testing different solutions! The BGP001 may well be the most expensive F1 car ever developed, if not the most expensive in aerodynamic development (as opposed to the days of turbo engine and suspension developments.)
3. The double diffuser loophole which the other 7 teams chose to ignore - Ross had highlighted it as a potential problem only to be shotdown.

The fall in form for the team this year can also be explained. As BAR and as Honda, this team has always seemed to have had brief flashes of brilliance when serious money was invested but then always fallen back in the years afterwards. They have always struggled for consistent front-running form. It was thought that bringing in Ross would help change that, and it seemed like it had but you have to wonder now that its happening again what the problem is.
Perhaps Jorg Zander (aero designer, left near the end of 2009, left F1 completely) was a bigger piece in their success?

Its quite possible the team may return to its 2007/2008 days...which would indeed put it behind teams like Lotus who are on the rise.

Actually thinking about it, its kind of weird how its going the way of the BAR to Honda buyout. They came off 2004 and 2005 with great results (like 2009) then progressively fell back in 2006 (like now). Are Mercedes going to sell it before 2013 (supposed big regulation changes) and the Brawn story happens again?