2011 Formula 1 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

  • Thread starter LewyOs
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I'd agree, I think Button agrees and I heard Coulthard mentioning it too. Reminds me of this sniffpetrol advert:

spadcuriousbutton.jpg


JB has always been talented but his early F1 career was a bit underwhelming, yet he's now absolutely at the top of his game, and probably has the best racecraft of anyone on the grid.
 
I wouldn't say his early career was that bad, his debut was very impressive. He had some good years 2003-2006. 2004 is easily one of his best ever seasons.

Its just he rarely had the car to really display what he does now. However, I do think he is driving the best right now simply due to the kind of competition he is up against. Its one thing dominating Sato or Barrichello but to be trading punches with Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, and so on is most impressive.

I guess its not really anything he is doing better in driving, as he has always been able to drive this well. Its just the relative comparisons we can make now are much more powerful.
 
True. I've always been a fan, since his F3 days in fact, but over the last few years he's finally been put in a car that allows him to mix it at the top, and now he's mature enough and experienced enough to make full use of it too. I can remember him being on top form at Austria one year in I think the Renault (maybe even BAR), again overtaking half the field.

Now Austria was a great track (different story for a different thread...)
 
homeforsummer
Button could have won the race had he not gone back down to 19th after his wing change. He was only 9 seconds behind Vettel by the end of the race, despite having had to come through 3/4 of the field to get there.

It's academic because the race is over now, but he easily had the pace and was kinder on his tyres. I know he wouldn't have had the same tyre options had he started nearer the front, but then had he started nearer the front he might not have had to pit for damage either, taking that 20-odd seconds out of the equation.

Plus, he would have been in a position to put Vettel under pressure, and we know what always happens in those scenarios... :sly: (JOKE!)

Hell, technically Schumacher had the pace too. His last stint was pretty slow but he was setting fastest first sectors throughout the race. I'm not surprised Schumi and Rosberg were passing people left, right and centre because the Mercedes had amazing straight line speed. Button aside most people were having a job passing the Mercs even with KERS and DRS.

And that was despite Schumacher being about 10km/h slower through Eau Rouge than someone like Alonso, who was absolutely mighty through there all race long.
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I disagree, I think the wing change was important for Button because had he not had to change his wing then he would not of stopped when he did and would not have changed tires then also. Meaning he would have run longer on the mediums and lost time in the process. I think the wing change potentially saved his race. However, like you say, we don't know what McLaren were planning on doing with Button, they could have been planning to bring him in early all along.
 
Hollidog
I disagree, I think the wing change was important for Button because had he not had to change his wing then he would not of stopped when he did and would not have changed tires then also. Meaning he would have run longer on the mediums and lost time in the process.
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You missed the point that the shorter run on mediums meant subsequent longer runs on softs, creating the potential for slower laps on degraded softs. Did he look after his tires more than he otherwise would have needed to, and could he have been even faster in his stints on softs? Those are questions we don't know the answers to.
 
EDK
You missed the point that the shorter run on mediums meant subsequent longer runs on softs, creating the potential for slower laps on degraded softs. Did he look after his tires more than he otherwise would have needed to, and could he have been even faster in his stints on softs? Those are questions we don't know the answers to.
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I suppose, but the softs lasted at least twelve laps easily if I recall correctly. 3 stints that lasts 12 laps each plus the few laps that he put on the mediums brings him up to about 40 laps out of the 44. I guess its not that unreasonable to expect Jenson, the "master" of tire conservation, to make them last a little longer. Also there was a safety car for a few laps that might have saved him a little bit of wear too.
 
Hollidog
I suppose, but the softs lasted at least twelve laps easily if I recall correctly. 3 stints that lasts 12 laps each plus the few laps that he put on the mediums brings him up to about 40 laps out of the 44. I guess its not that unreasonable to expect Jenson, the "master" of tire conservation, to make them last a little longer. Also there was a safety car for a few laps that might have saved him a little bit of wear too.
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I wouldn't say the softs lasted "easily". Vettel came on the radio several times after only three or four laps on each set complaining of graining.

Jenson made the mediums last for a fairly long time and didn't struggle too much on the softs for his last stint (since he was managing to catch and pass people in the last stint without much difficulty).

I doubt McLaren had intended to bring Jenson in particularly early, which I think was the motivation for keeping him out so long even though his front wing was knackered. Had they been intending to bring him in early I expect they would have got it over with so they could replace his nose cone.
 
homeforsummer
I wouldn't say the softs lasted "easily". Vettel came on the radio several times after only three or four laps on each set complaining of graining.

Jenson made the mediums last for a fairly long time and didn't struggle too much on the softs for his last stint (since he was managing to catch and pass people in the last stint without much difficulty).

I doubt McLaren had intended to bring Jenson in particularly early, which I think was the motivation for keeping him out so long even though his front wing was knackered. Had they been intending to bring him in early I expect they would have got it over with so they could replace his nose cone.
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I see what you're saying but the Red Bulls, in particular, Vettels, weren't managing their tires very well. I don't know when Button pitted but obviously a later stop may have advantaged him because it may have allowed him to do more aggressive running on the softs. Also at the end of the races the track tends to come to the softs because of the fact that it has rubbered in and the tires slide less on the track surface so their temperatures are easier to control. Most of my argument depends on when Button pitted, which I don't know :lol:
 
Ardius
Of course its helped a lot that Hamilton has seemingly gotten worse at the same time, which has made Button a very handy asset for McLaren when Hamilton crashes.
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I don't think it's accurate to say that Hamilton has gotten worse. Hamilton has always been more aggressive than Button, going for an overtake where Button would not, and sometimes this has cost Lewis races. Hamilton always pushing has cost him when he could have backed off and played it safe. Hamilton has been at the losing end of racing incidences that Button wouldn't have been in due to Button's relative lack of "attachments", as David Hobbs calls them. These crashes on Hamilton's part aren't so much due to becoming a poorer driver as much as to having poorer luck than Button, being too ambitious at times, and moments of recklessness. When he crashed this past weekend, it wasn't due to him becoming a poorer driver, as his driving is still top-notch, but rather seems more to do with him having made an assumption (that he was clear of Kobayashi but was actually not).
 
IceMan PJN
I don't think it's accurate to say that Hamilton has gotten worse. Hamilton has always been more aggressive than Button, going for an overtake where Button would not, and sometimes this has cost Lewis races. Hamilton always pushing has cost him when he could have backed off and played it safe. Hamilton has been at the losing end of racing incidences that Button wouldn't have been in due to Button's relative lack of "attachments", as David Hobbs calls them. These crashes on Hamilton's part aren't so much due to becoming a poorer driver as much as to having poorer luck than Button, being too ambitious at times, and moments of recklessness. When he crashed this past weekend, it wasn't due to him becoming a poorer driver, as his driving is still top-notch, but rather seems more to do with him having made an assumption (that he was clear of Kobayashi but was actually not).
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Watch the 2007 season and then watch this season again. I think its accurate to say that Hamilton has definitely driven quite poorly this year making several mistakes where he didn't need to.
I mean, in every season since 2007 Hamilton has made stupid mistakes, but the number of incidents he's been involved in 2011 is ridiculous.

It only serves to highlight JB's more calm approach when Hamilton spectacularly crashes out of races despite being generally the faster driver.

To blame Hamilton's incidents on luck is what I would call inaccurate. There's having bad luck and there's simply being involved in so many incidents he must be doing something wrong.

Don't you think Hamilton's assumptions factor into his ability as a driver? Its not just about driving the car, if he can't think his way around the race track, then it makes him all the poorer as a driver. Its what has made drivers like Alonso and Schumacher so successful.

I think the common factor in most if not all of Hamilton's accidents and incidents is his judgement, it seems he tends to have poor judgement and awareness in certain (but I stress..not all) racing situations. This is part of being a racing driver is it not? In the same situations, many other drivers have not made the same mistakes..and while some have been slower, its the overall driver we are talking about here. After all, I did not say Hamilton has been getting slower, I said he's been getting worse.
 
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And it shows. He's the only one of the top 5 drivers to have scored less points at this point in the season compared to last year.
 
What do we reckon then, who is going to finish 2011 as McLaren top dog? I love the fact that this question isn't necessarily easy to answer!
 
YellowG1
I wonder if people obsessed about Schumacher or Senna in their day the way they obsess over Hamilton.
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Well, the French F1 fans I believe did dislike Senna, the same way Spanish hated Lewis. A lot of people disliked Schuamcher for making F1 a bore and the team orders fiasco.
 
YellowG1
I wonder if people obsessed about Schumacher or Senna in their day the way they obsess over Hamilton.
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If Schumacher had a penny for every single person who hated his guts back in the Ferrari days, whether for his smug dominance of the sport, his Dick Dastardly antics (Schumacher's cheatingly-cheating ways make Lewis look like a Boy Schout) or his plain, unadultered arrogance, he'd probably be twice as rich as he is now.

And make no mistake, with a yearly salary plus endorsements totalling over a hundred million dollars per year when he left Ferrari ($75m in salary, another $75m plus in endorsements and side businesses), Schumacher is very rich, indeed.
 
Fans of Senna shouldn't forget that he was a focused and sometimes ruthless driver. When people chide Lewis for his own rule-bending (but not breaking... not until the FIA decide that the rules should be changed to take him into account) antics, they would do well to remember that Senna is his idol.

But it's not just that... Senna does things like that due to a (sometimes) pig-headed passion. Schumacher does it as a calculated means of handicapping his foes. Witness the infamous qualifying stunt in Monaco. Oops... I just happened to stall in the middle of the track...
 
Who won? My cable, internet, and phone were out during it until a few hours ago :( and I wanted to watch this one too, Monza next?
 
Cowboys965
Who won? My cable, internet, and phone were out during it until a few hours ago :( and I wanted to watch this one too, Monza next?
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Daniel Ricciardo dominated from pole. Flag to Flag victory for him, with Liuzzi following a very close 2nd place.


No, i'm not serious. Red Bull 1-2 with "The Finger" on top. Hamilton retired
 
niky
Fans of Senna shouldn't forget that he was a focused and sometimes ruthless driver. When people chide Lewis for his own rule-bending (but not breaking... not until the FIA decide that the rules should be changed to take him into account) antics, they would do well to remember that Senna is his idol.

But it's not just that... Senna does things like that due to a (sometimes) pig-headed passion. Schumacher does it as a calculated means of handicapping his foes. Witness the infamous qualifying stunt in Monaco. Oops... I just happened to stall in the middle of the track...
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I have to say, you explained that very well.
 
It's quite funny actually. All the Hamilton fans love to talk about how he dominates Button in qualifying and is therefore the better driver. Someone highlighted these views on youtube by calling Button a kitten.

I replied asking why Button is ahead in the WDC when he's had the same number of DNFs as Lewis, only his weren't down to failed overtaking attempts, one was a result of hydraulic problems and the other was down to the mechanics forgetting to put the wheelnut on :D

My cousin critiscised me for jumping on the Button bandwagon (Not true, been behind him since his fantastic 2004 season). She is a Hamilton fan. She didn't jump on his bandwagon at all, did she :sly:
 
I must admit... I've had my doubts on Button. Because Hamilton is defintely the faster driver.

If a race fell into his hands just once or twice due to a lucky call, that would simply be down to luck.

But time and again, Button has shown that his seeming lack of speed pays dividends in terms of tire wear and mid-race and end-of-race pace, where he really turns up the wick. And he makes the right calls more often than not... if not for unforseen events caused by poor team orders, other drivers running into him or causing yellow or red flags, he might actually have two or three more race wins this year and would be much, much closer to Vettel than anyone else.

These past few races have seen Button finally find his place at McLaren. Last year he was playing catch up versus a Lewis Hamilton who really started maturing as a prime driver... this year, he's comfortable in the car and showing people what he's really capable of... up against a Hamilton who's showing a lot of difficulty in coping with adversity.

In other words... it's Hamilton-Alonso all over again... except this time the shoe is on the other foot...
 
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Ardius
What do we reckon then, who is going to finish 2011 as McLaren top dog? I love the fact that this question isn't necessarily easy to answer!
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I'm going for JB, and not just because I prefer him as a character and a driver. I think he's so, so close to Lewis on outright pace at the moment, without having the poor racecraft.

Mike Rotch
If you mean his Hill/ Villeneuve antics, then they should be held in the same light as Senna's Prost antics.
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Schumi's antics were odd.

The Villeneuve accident seemed in a way, premeditated. He knew Jacques was catching up and was going to pass, so I reckon he'd planned to try and take him out all along.

The Hill incident, and the occasion where Michael parked his car at Monaco to spoil everyone's hot laps in qualifying, I reckon were both done as split-second, desperate decision from the mind of someone who wanted to win at all costs.

I reckon Prost's move on Senna was the same, but I think Senna's on Prost was premeditated too.

In fact, I'd say that nothing Senna ever did wasn't premeditated in some way. I think he was even more ruthless than Schumacher. As Niky said, Schumi was more calculated and he could do those calculations at a split second if necessary. Senna knew it was coming from probably days or even weeks away (as with the Suzuka incident).
 
homeforsummer
I reckon Prost's move on Senna was the same, but I think Senna's on Prost was premeditated too.

In fact, I'd say that nothing Senna ever did wasn't premeditated in some way. I think he was even more ruthless than Schumacher.
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1989: Senna does his moves, he's an evil man with a Twinkie-colored helmet. Prost does it, he's a hero for finally putting him in his place.
1999: After Senna dies, his moves are always brilliant, but now Prost is a jerk.

The passage of time is unfair.

As for Hamilton, time will tell whether he's just not paying attention or just getting stressed about not being in the best car. It is funny though, I feel like we're seeing Prost and Senna in Button and Hamilton, all over again (minus all the internecine bad feelings and bile). One's just out-and-out fast, the other the tactician, although to be fair, Prost seemed to have most of the "good luck" on his side from 1985 until the end of his career, most of which I attribute to just being a clean and meticulous driver, but not menacingly fast all the time, like Senna was. Button's been receiving all the crap cards.

Schumacher was the blend of brilliance, speed, race tactics, set-up, fitness, will-to-win (to free himself mentally form distraction) and grand manipulator like no other driver ever was. Definitely cut from the Senna cloth, when it came time to allow competitors by, though. But like Prost in catching them up, quietly and how'd-he-do-that?
 
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I often wonder if, had Prost died instead, that people would now be praising him and calling the greatest driver of all time.
 
YellowG1
I wonder if people obsessed about Schumacher or Senna in their day the way they obsess over Hamilton.
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They did. Though I think currently Hamilton is more in the Jacques Villenueve/Juan Pablo Montoya category - he's burst onto the scene with spectacular form and hence created a public image for himself and brought popularity. Only now he is making more mistakes and hence bringing much greater criticism than if his career had gone the opposite direction. Not to mention, like all these drivers we mention, he is a controversial figure, regularly coming out with some comments and always being involved in clashes on the track.
The question I guess now is whether he is going to learn from his mistakes and return to WDC success or if he isn't going to learn and end up leaving the sport frustrated. Surely he will win another WDC but with this season so far the doubt is certainly growing.

And I don't need to "wonder" - I remember very well the attention Schumacher got and to some extent still gets, in praise and criticism. Hamilton has got no where near the level of Senna or Schumacher in this sense yet. As I said, I think Jacques Villenueve's level of controversey is about where Lewis is right now.
 
Juan Pablo Montoya was an interesting case. There is no doubt the man was insanely talented at the wheel of an open race car (CART champion as a rookie!), but it never came together for him in F1.

Lewis could have almost gone that way, but he lucked out and won that championship... and it was luck. That is to say: the Ferrari-McLaren battles for the championships in those years came down, in the end, to luck and happenstance... as neither Kimi nor Lewis had the consistency in results to ensure an easy victory. They both had the natural speed and talent to win championships handily, but they didn't. And a whole lot of that was down to their personalities.

There was hope that Lewis had matured last year after playing backmarker during the Brawn GP season... and there were signs of that. Now it seems like he's reverting to the earlier, more reckless Lewis when the chips are down.

I think the telling point came when Lewis complained, out loud and in public, about all the public relations duty McLaren was making him do. Most drivers would have shrugged it off as just another part of the job. For Lewis, it was an irritating distraction. That's the sign of a driver who's not focused enough to shut out the noise and concentrate... and that doesn't bode well for his future career.

I mean, just look at Kimi... after F1, he's divebombed faster than Villeneuve... at least Villeneuve has that LeMans seat every year... :D
 
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In terms of Hamilton-Button, Hamilton is the faster one but Button is better currently. His experience ties him over.

When Hamilton is 31 though he will most likely be better than Button is/was at 31.
 

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